Found 3 Others! Identification Help!

Opheodrys · 06-28-14, 08:29 PM

Was out hiking again here in Nashville Tennessee, saw 3 little guys (one of which wasn't happy to see me). Are my identification guesses correct?

Milk Snake?:
DSC01261_zps2ed09f0c.jpg Photo by svoit41 | Photobucket

Water Snake? or Rat Snake?:
DSC01243_zps336be74a.jpg Photo by svoit41 | Photobucket

Little baby Water Snake?:
DSC01253_zps15c54fb1.jpg Photo by svoit41 | Photobucket

bigsnakegirl785 · 06-28-14, 09:01 PM

Yes, I'd say your identifications were correct.

FWK · 06-28-14, 09:17 PM

Nice finds man, you seem to have good luck with the herping. The second and third are Water Snakes, the first is an Eastern Milk. Milks and Corns look so similar in snapshots lol, they always make me second guess myself. In person they are as different as night and day though.

Opheodrys · 06-29-14, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FWK

Nice finds man, you seem to have good luck with the herping. The second and third are Water Snakes, the first is an Eastern Milk. Milks and Corns look so similar in snapshots lol, they always make me second guess myself. In person they are as different as night and day though.

Thanks to everyone for their replies! It's such a big help to me!

To FWK: I'm fortunate enough that I usually get to see at least one each time I go out hiking in my area, although I always hope to see a rough green snake. I actually saw four today, but the fourth one I couldn't get a good enough picture to make anything of.

Your comment made me google pictures of corn and milk snakes and they look extremely similar. The only consistent difference that my novice eyes could discern between the two was their heads. The pattern on the milk snake seems to flow onto the head, whereas the corn snake's pattern almost looks like the head is another red segment?

Sublimeballs · 06-28-14, 09:47 PM

^^^what he said

sharthun · 06-28-14, 10:29 PM

Nice finds!!

Opheodrys · 06-29-14, 07:29 AM

Is it easy to determine the sub-species of water snake? Or is that more difficult to determine by the pictures? I have a more clear picture of the baby water snake if anyone needs to see it, but he's not in a cool pose looking over the water LOL

FWK · 06-29-14, 08:30 AM

Honestly I haven't really figured out the difference in pattern between Corns and Milks. They are very similar as adults and ridiculously similar as juveniles. The big difference is body and head structure, but it is often tough to see in snapshots. Even more so for juveniles like this one, it looks a bit thin to be a Milk. They tend fill out with age. Milks and Kings have very cylindrical bodies, a cross section would form a near perfect "O" shape. Corns and Rats have a very flat, well defined belly making a cross section more like a "D". A Corns head is more square and distinct from the neck, a Milks head is more rounded. Corns can articulate their bodies much more finely than Milks, Corn are excellent climbers and Milks spend most or their time digging around in leaf litter and loose soil. Handle a few of each and the physical differences become very easy to see, but if you are still not sure the unmistakable feature is the anal scale. Corns have a divided anal scale, Milks do not.

The Water Snakes should be Northern Water Snakes. There are a few sub-species of Northern Water Snakes and they are all virtually the same, and they interbreed where their ranges overlap lol. I think you are near the Common Water Snake/Midland Water Snake border. I think you'd have to count scales to be sure which was which, I'd just call them Notherns.

sharthun · 06-29-14, 08:44 AM

I've found that after a while it's harder to get decent close up photos ! Lol Finding a good field guide for your area that has a dichotomous key will help with identification. But with a key, you have to have the reptile in hand. Thanks for sharing!

Opheodrys · 06-29-14, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FWK

Honestly I haven't really figured out the difference in pattern between Corns and Milks. They are very similar as adults and ridiculously similar as juveniles. The big difference is body and head structure, but it is often tough to see in snapshots. Even more so for juveniles like this one, it looks a bit thin to be a Milk. They tend fill out with age. Milks and Kings have very cylindrical bodies, a cross section would form a near perfect "O" shape. Corns and Rats have a very flat, well defined belly making a cross section more like a "D". A Corns head is more square and distinct from the neck, a Milks head is more rounded. Corns can articulate their bodies much more finely than Milks, Corn are excellent climbers and Milks spend most or their time digging around in leaf litter and loose soil. Handle a few of each and the physical differences become very easy to see, but if you are still not sure the unmistakable feature is the anal scale. Corns have a divided anal scale, Milks do not.

The Water Snakes should be Northern Water Snakes. There are a few sub-species of Northern Water Snakes and they are all virtually the same, and they interbreed where their ranges overlap lol. I think you are near the Common Water Snake/Midland Water Snake border. I think you'd have to count scales to be sure which was which, I'd just call them Notherns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharthun

I've found that after a while it's harder to get decent close up photos ! Lol Finding a good field guide for your area that has a dichotomous key will help with identification. But with a key, you have to have the reptile in hand. Thanks for sharing!

Thanks again, that was a great explanation! I honestly don't think I'll ever handle one in the wild, so I might have to observe these differences from a distance LOL.

What you said about the water snakes seems to make sense, I'll just label them as Water Snakes.

One day, I hope I'll get a better camera and be able to add some depth to the photographs, and to your comment Sharthun, I hope I don't ever have an issue getting decent close-ups!

sharthun · 06-29-14, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Opheodrys

Thanks again, that was a great explanation! I honestly don't think I'll ever handle one in the wild, so I might have to observe these differences from a distance LOL.

What you said about the water snakes seems to make sense, I'll just label them as Water Snakes.

One day, I hope I'll get a better camera and be able to add some depth to the photographs, and to your comment Sharthun, I hope I don't ever have an issue getting decent close-ups!

Yeah, I should have added, if you aren't positively sure if venomous , don't handle! I always seem to have technical difficulties when taking pics. Having a buddy is preferred and makes taking pics so much easier.

jpsteele80 · 06-29-14, 09:10 AM

Great finds, wish I had that kind of luck