Fancy Rat Breeder looking for "Feedback"

TessMillerDT · 12-07-05, 10:30 AM

My name is Tess M. Miller, and I've been working almost 6 years as a Fancy Rat breeder, just recently entering the world of professional breeding and showing. Since I'm relatively new to the breeding scene, I'm running into a lot of new opinions from long time breeders and judges. I've noticed that the one thing that everyone seems to agree on, is the absolutely gross living conditions in Wholesale Rodent Manufacturers (or "Rat Mills"). If you don't know what one is (or if you care) you can check out what I'm specifically talking about at (http://pawofjustice.org/index.php?cat=11)

Anyways, the rats are raised in mills that produce up to 100,000 a month to sell to petstores, zoos & independant buyers. These animals live an awful life. So breeders specifically don't support this trade by not visiting petstores of major chains, and encouraging their adopters to do the same. However, the one thing that bothers me about this argument is that we also do not sell our own stock as feeders, we are fitfully against it, and will never sell to a reptile owner.

I'm currently writing an article called Breeders & Feeders: Are we making the problem worse? Where I bring up the idea that the animals from our litter that are not part of our breeding programs, might be used to sell to herpe owners as a way to cut down mill demand. By telling herpe owners that they cannot adopt from us, we are basically saying your options are to go to a petstore, and buy a mill rat, and support the industry. Even those of you who breed most likely bought your breeders from a petstore, therefore supporting the mills. If we really wanted this to stop, we would do something about it and live up to our argument. We argue that all rats (even if they are food) should be given a good life up until that point. So why don't we offer that good life, instead of closing doors and creating more mill demand?

So before I post this article to the rat community (which will probably crucify me for suggesting it) I wanted to get any feedback I could from actual herpe owners and breeders. If you have the time, please let me know:

How often do you purchase feeders, and it what quantity?
If you breed your own feeding stock, do you offer them a good quality of life before feeding?
Even though your love is in snakes, do you not think that rodents deserve proper housing and care (not in a mill)?
If breeders of quality Fancy Rats began to offer their stock as feeders, would you purchase them and play your part to lessen the demand of rat mills?

Thanks for any info that you can provide!

NocturnalBC · 12-07-05, 11:37 AM

lol..You posted this on a snake forum?

Anyway, feeders are bred to be fed, they get the best possible food and live in clean housing. What more do you want?

TessMillerDT · 12-07-05, 11:45 AM

Of course I posted this on a snake forum, I have to know how snake breeders feel about this.

Of course feeders are bred to be fed, it's not like snakes can eat Purina BoaChow or anything! lol

But the simple truth is that wholesale manufacturers DON'T provide their "product" with clean housing and good food. In fact it's just the opposite, they are given inadequite food and a completely improper diet, and live in horribly unsanitary and unsafe housing that causes many animals to die.

It would be like a wholesale snake breeder (which I'm sure doesn't actually exist) tossing 50 snakes in a galvanized cage made for two snakes total, and feeding them ground beef.

My question is, if you could support a better quality of life for the rodents raised as food, and the only effort on your part would be to buy from a breeder as opposed to a petstore, would you support the effort?

End Times · 12-07-05, 11:50 AM

I'd buy from a "rat breeder" if they'd sell to me. You are what you eat I suppose, and I'd sooner feed healthy, well fed, prey items than not.

Even locally, though, in my small city, you see classified adds where people are breeding rodents and right in their add they'll say "NOT FOR FEEDERS!!!" so, like you said, I go to the pet store.

TessMillerDT · 12-07-05, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by End Times

Even locally, though, in my small city, you see classified adds where people are breeding rodents and right in their add they'll say "NOT FOR FEEDERS!!!" so, like you said, I go to the pet store.

Thanks for the feedback! Do you mind if I use this quote in my article? This is exactly the hypocrisy that I'm trying to work towards ending (in my personal rat community), the idea that we want breeders to stop supporting mills, but unless you breed your own feed what choice do you have? You would have to be crazy to waste your time filling out contracts and paying $30.00 a rat.

NocturnalBC · 12-07-05, 12:08 PM

Like End Times has said, For sure those who buy feeders, their 1st choice would be a local breeder but that is not always an option. You do what you have to do to feed your pets.

TessMillerDT · 12-07-05, 12:29 PM

Completely understandable. I would do anything for my pets, as soon as you take a life into your home you should do whatever is best for them. I'm just trying to get a better idea of wether or not you as a breeder/owner of a snake, would take any action to better the lives of other animals (after your own of course).

End Times · 12-07-05, 01:25 PM

Yeah, you can quote me on that, I don't mind. And yes, I would treat prey animals humanely whilst in my care. I try to always feed Frozen Thawed rats, but one snake in particular just will not take them so is fed live at this time.

Another way for you to look at this would be that as snake lovers, even if we HATED rodents with a passion and for some reason could care less how they were treated when alive, the majority of us would likely still treat "feeders" well as we want our snakes to have quality food. Diseased, malnourished rodents would never be on the menu for a responsible snake keeper. I guess what I mean is, even if we had no love of rats, we would still treat them well for the sake of our snakes. Make sense?

TessMillerDT · 12-07-05, 02:51 PM

If it's not a bother. I would like to actually post my article (or send it to someone) when it's written. Before it goes out to those I know, I really want to make sure I don't misrepresent the reptile community.

rrrrr · 12-07-05, 03:19 PM

I think a lot of people aren't going to come out and say it, but the deciding issues are pragmatic ones. If this is surplus, how reliable is the supply going to be? How are you (not "you" per se, but ethical rat breeders in general) going to compete on price? Many people will pay the best price without any concern for the ethics involved. A significant minority may pay a slightly higher price for an ethically produced product. A very small group will pay whatever it costs to take the high road.

For me, supply reliability, quality and price are the most important factors. I am concerned that the feeders be treated humanely, but I'm not going to pay twice the price for it.

So, to answer your actual questions.

- I buy about 800 rodents (rats and mice) per year. When available, I buy about 200 at a time.

- I dont breed feeders and only buy frozen so Q2 is not applicable.

- If fancy rat breeders want my business, they need to compete on availability, quality and price. If they hit the ball-park on all three, I would choose them over vendors that provide less humane conditions.

For the record, many feeder companies seem to do a pretty good job though.

Bluzmn59 · 12-07-05, 03:25 PM

I am an animal lover and I am married to a veterinarian. We have, in addition to our snakes, a tortoise, a parrot, 2 cats and 3 dogs. Clearly, we do not like supporting anybody who mistreats animals in any way. Also, as pointed out above, a healthy, well-nourished prey animal is desireable. However, I do not have the time, space nor frankly, the inclination, to raise my own rats for feeding purposes. In addition, I need less than twenty rats per month and I need them in three different sizes. I feed frozen/thawed. Clearly, raising my own makes no sense. What, then, are my options? I buy what is available at a reasonable cost and I get them from a local reptile swap meet. If those come from a mill, I really have no other reasonable choice.

Bluzmn59 · 12-07-05, 03:27 PM

rrrr's post went up while I was typing my previous post. I could not agree more. I would pay a slight premium to support ethical treatment, but will not double my cost, let's say.

End Times · 12-07-05, 03:33 PM

Good points by all. I'm surprised I failed to mention the whole cost+quality+supply reliability issue. I wouldn't be paying $10 per rat when it's just food. Also, to keep my loyalty, they'd have to have rats available whenever I'd have need, and not pull "come back next month, I should have more by then..."

Ciddian · 12-07-05, 08:40 PM

I think that is the problem.. demand and price. You can procide a good quality of life but how much more would that cost? Please dont read me wrong...but i just see buyers just naturally going to the cheapest seller.
I know we sometimes have an issue with supply and demand in the summers here.. i know we had troubles getting animals at my old pet store job.
I do care for my pet rats and feeder rats greatly... but being myself i dont want to get attached to my feeder animals... because then i wont feed them! lol I'll fall in love. ^^
I have rescued 6 rats from my store and tried to save a few pups and fuzzies.. I still have two left and that was 5 or 6 years ago.

It would be great if breeders would wholesale thier stock that isnt desirable for breeding. I am sure it would take a lot of weight off of the breeders as well...less space needed and such.

I did notice as soon as i adopted a wonderful adult corn snake i became a "horrible and uncaring person" in the eyes of rat keepers and breeders. I think that is a closeminded thought. I mean... A Rat lover, might not be fond of snakes...would they all be so kind to a garder snake discovered in thier basement? I dont know... and thats the problem. There is missing respect on both sides..

I only feed frozen thaw and am happy to say i got my corn off of live (not hard..lol She'll eat anything) lol But there are snakes out there that are not and might never take sucha thing. So... good quality breeders need to understand that.

I dont know if i made any sense.. But i took a long long time reading the site and had my eyes opened just a bit more. I think i looked away up to this point because i care so much about the rats/feeders... But its just a part of life when owning a snake or another rat eating herp.

I think we should treat every feeder well, no matter what it is. Chickens, cows.. what have you. I've had people in our old shop that would place a live rat in a bag and smash it off a table.. Let me tell you, there are places for that and in front of me in plain few was not one of them. I cant always control what happens to the rats both bred for pets and for feeders as soon as they leave the shop. Unfortunatly..

Sorry.. I'll stop my rant here ^^
~*jessica*~

peterm15 · 12-07-05, 09:31 PM

personally would i buy a fancy rat that was bred to be a pet for a feeder.. No. plain and simple.. would anyone buy a lap dog to feed to a burm. i doubt it.

now. i would like to know that the feeders that im buying are taken care of and the short time they have here there well taken care of...

and i certianly agree with something that was mentioned above.. would a fancy rat breeder hesitate to cut a garter snake in half in crawling around there living room.. some may but i doubt all.. you really have to look at the hole picture... when people learn to care for all animals as a hole they will learn to care properly for there own..

i do think what your saying is a great point and even if just for health rats should be cared for properly.. but the only way youll get me buying rats off of a fancy breeder is if there bred for feeders.. thats it... i will not buy a fanvy rat as a feeder.. and that is why i ONLY feed frozen.. ill do anything possible to feed frozen.

i agree with your cause and i wish you well.. i hope yuo can stop cruilty all to animals.. but if yuor going to do that id suggest staying away from PETA.. there a bunch of.. well ill get cencored so theres no point.. just remember that they do not agree with ANY captive animal.. even rats.