Stage 3 (Dry Season)

[formica]

A note - this is experimental, and not recommended

my Sav has been in ''cool season'' since November, and I'm getting ready to run a ''dry season'' simulation, upto mid-march latest, at which point (s)he'll be going into a 10X6 enclosure

I was hesitant to post this up, i'd like to ask first that we leave aside the previous discussions on this topic, which got a little overheated, would be great if we could focus on finding the safest way to approach this based on your experience and understanding of Sav's, i've tried to integrate everything I have learnt so far to do this...your advice and suggestions are very welcome!

i built a nesting box a few months ago, basically a ~2.2ft cube, filled almost to the top with soil-sand mix, and heated to 86f, this was just incase the main enclosure substrate wasnt right, and it turned out to be a she needing to lay eggs

The nest box is connected to the main enclosure via a plastic tunnel, my Sav hasnt shown any interest in it at all so far, nosed around a few times, but still sleeping in the main enclosure, but I think it will become a retreat once I switch the temps and humidity over.

So the plan, is to use a nesting box as a cool and humid hide, and the main enclosure as a hot and dry area.

For ''dry season'' (now to march) i am going to reduce the heating temp of the nesting box to about 75-78f, and keep the humidity at 90%, and then bump the basking temps up to 160f in the main enclosure, aswell as increase ventilation so its a bit drier (~30%), i'm also switching the lamps to Halides for a higher UV boost during this stage

going to a Herp Vet on friday for a checkup, but he/she seems pretty healthy, a little overweight (no surprise after cooling for a while), given the expected change in apatite I think thats probably not a bad thing in the short term

getting blood tests for Liver and Kidney Function, White Cell counts, and fecal parasite checks, aswell as BMI, all for comparison mid-march at a 2nd check up.


I was thinking of modifying the diet aswell during the simulation, my logic being that insects populations crash during dry seasons, so feeding mainly carrion type foods, highly nutritious and low fat (livers/kidneys/hearts etc), and dubias & giant snails, maybe a few big scorpians too, all depending on apatite


thoughts, comments and suggestions very welcome


My expectations:

1. Appetite reduction or possibly total fast
2. Reduction in activity
3. Weight Loss
4. Increased immune response as a result of:
   
   • Increased UV
   • (Fasting)
   Breeding Behaviour / Ovulation triggered late March when switching to optimal (rainy season) climate control

Long term? Who knows, it is difficult to measure genetic repair without lots of money, but studies have shown that fasting is an important trigger for genetic repair, so potentially, increased life span, but with just one Sav, in one setup with, one set of environmental conditions, designed by someone new to monitors, its impossible to measure this properly...for now

Then again, none of the above may happen

[pdomensis]

Sounds interesting. I don't know a thing about savs so I'm just looking at this from a scientific angle. Like you mentioned, it would be impossible to quantify any results and determine any significance unless you replicated the experiment many times, but anecdotal evidence is a good beginning point.

I haven't heard the term "genetic repair" before and was curious about what that meant. Good luck!

[formica]

Originally Posted by pdomensis

Sounds interesting. I don't know a thing about savs so I'm just looking at this from a scientific angle. Like you mentioned, it would be impossible to quantify any results and determine any significance unless you replicated the experiment many times, but anecdotal evidence is a good beginning point.

I haven't heard the term "genetic repair" before and was curious about what that meant. Good luck!

In humans, it relates to a hormone called IGF-1.

Essentially, IGF-1 causes cells to divide and reproduce when the levels are high, this results in minor errors in DNA, which add to form all sorts of diseases, cancers and age related degenerative conditions

When the levels are low, cells switch ''modes'', rather than dividing and reproducing rapidly, they repair their DNA and reproduce more slowly, ageing essentially slows down, and the DNA is repaired more efficiently.

IGF-1 levels are directly related to food consumption, fasting for 72hrs reduces it to a level which switches the repair mode on, eating every day, keeps the levels high, so we age faster and have more age-related diseases as a result of damaged DNA not being repaired properly

Before modern farming and civilization, hunter gather lifestlyes, and our more primitive lifestyles (as seen in some of our Ape cousins lives), would involve several days of fasting or very low calorie intake, expending lots of energy in order to find a big meal - the theory is, that we have evolved to fast, in order to repair our DNA properly, and this is unlikley to be exclusive to Humans.

IGF-1 is found in many animals, including reptiles

There is not really enough data on what monitors do during dry season, although they are known to not be totally inactive, it is debatable how much they eat or what activities they continue doing - if they do fast, and have evolved to do so, I feel that it is probably an important part of their physiology


I'll post up some links tonight...off out now! but if you want to read more, search for IGF-1 and fasting

[B_Aller]

This is a bad idea all around. You really think messing with the parameters that much and forcing your animal into your seasons is beneficial? Then on top of that stressing the hell out of it to be poked and prodded by the vet?
I know you said you only want people who agree with you to post on your threads but this is the problem with the trade right here in a nut shell. You should raise up 4-6 of these guys first using the proven husbandry methods so you know what normal in captivity is before posting this type of stuff, very dangerous and potentially life threatening to those who read it and think this is where their effort should go. I don't care if you say this is not recommended, this is irresponsible.

[formica]

Originally Posted by B_Aller

This is a bad idea all around. You really think messing with the parameters that much and forcing your animal into your seasons is beneficial? Then on top of that stressing the hell out of it to be poked and prodded by the vet?
I know you said you only want people who agree with you to post on your threads but this is the problem with the trade right here in a nut shell. You should raise up 4-6 of these guys first using the proven husbandry methods so you know what normal in captivity is before posting this type of stuff, very dangerous and potentially life threatening to those who read it and think this is where their effort should go. I don't care if you say this is not recommended, this is irresponsible.

Yes I do believe that potentially it could be very beneficial, the science suggests it could be so. I do not believe it is anywhere near is dangerous as you are suggesting, not for the short amount of time involved, Savs deal with 5-6 months dry season in the wild, mine is getting a climate controlled humid hide, and a dry enclosure for just 2.5months.

There are at least 3 things missing from ''proven husbandry'' for monitors, which have been shown not only to be beneficial, but infact vital for many animal's lives, there is no reason to suggest that the same is not true for monitors. At least one of those has been proven scientifically already in the last few weeks, as you know, but refuse to accept.

This is my responsibility, and I accept that, i'm not a child, and I am not asking your permission.

Hope we have cleared that up and can get on with an interesting discussion ...theres a whole area of a monitors life beyond rainy season

[pdomensis]

Husbandry, like evolution, requires trial and error. I'm not advocating the needless harming of animals, but new things have to be tried in order to make advances. However I would agree that increased stress would be one of the results and that might undo any benefits of occasional fasting.

[pdomensis]

I actually think this would be better done to a large number of lab sized animals (feeders) to get good data instead of a single monitor.

[formica]

Originally Posted by pdomensis

Husbandry, like evolution, requires trial and error. I'm not advocating the needless harming of animals, but new things have to be tried in order to make advances. However I would agree that increased stress would be one of the results and that might undo any benefits of occasional fasting.

may well be right, do you think that this would cause more stress than 5-6 months of dry season in the wild? I'm not sure it will, most Savs do not survive their first dry season in the wild (from what DB told me), the environmental pressures far exceed what I am going to provide

My Sav isnt going to be forced to fast, in DB's book, his observations where that monitors automatically reduced their food intake as the seasons changed, regardless of the amount of food available, so i intend to make food available, and let my Sav choose for himself

Originally Posted by pdomensis

I actually think this would be better done to a large number of lab sized animals (feeders) to get good data instead of a single monitor.

definitely needs a good data set, unfortunately I dont have the money for the scale required to do a proper scientific study....but I get the feeling that no one is prepared to do that kind of study, without first seeing it happen on a smaller scale without disastrous consequences.

My years raising ant colonies from around the world, have taught me the importance of natural cycles, you cannot keep temperate species for eg, at the same temps and humidity all year round, they become sick and die off within a few years if they are not allowed to hibernate, as opposed to a decade or more life span

[Starbuck]

Originally Posted by formica

My years raising ant colonies from around the world, have taught me the importance of natural cycles, you cannot keep temperate species for eg, at the same temps and humidity all year round, they become sick and die off within a few years if they are not allowed to hibernate, as opposed to a decade or more life span

an ant is not a vertebrate. My (somewhat limited) understanding of many temperate ant colonies is that the cold/dry/harsh season often coincides with a large die off in colony members, which are then replenished with new offspring during favorable conditions, the point is to protect the reproducing stage... therefore without the cycling of climate, the old ants aren't dying off as they would in nature, resulting in a more dramatic colony die off after a certain number of years, as an ant isn't designed to live that long...? additionally, in many animals, cycling is required to induce the female to ovulate/prepare her for pregnancy, but since you are not planning to breed your sav, I'm failing to see the urgency? wouldn't inducing her to cycle actually shorten her lifespan?

While i have no doubt that you have done lots of reading on the subject, i don't think it is appropriate to draw parallels and conclusions based on invertebrate, colony biology to a single vertebrate organism.

[formica]

Originally Posted by Starbuck

an ant is not a vertebrate. My (somewhat limited) understanding of many temperate ant colonies is that the cold/dry/harsh season often coincides with a large die off in colony members, which are then replenished with new offspring during favorable conditions, the point is to protect the reproducing stage... therefore without the cycling of climate, the old ants aren't dying off as they would in nature, resulting in a more dramatic colony die off after a certain number of years, as an ant isn't designed to live that long...? additionally, in many animals, cycling is required to induce the female to ovulate/prepare her for pregnancy, but since you are not planning to breed your sav, I'm failing to see the urgency? wouldn't inducing her to cycle actually shorten her lifespan?

While i have no doubt that you have done lots of reading on the subject, i don't think it is appropriate to draw parallels and conclusions based on invertebrate, colony biology to a single vertebrate organism.

Some older/weaker worker ants die off during hibernation, but not in any great numbers, the biggest die off is eggs and very young larvae, older larvae and pupae all survive and continue to slowly develop if its not too cold, most of the workers survive, its the older works who are out first in spring, some workers live weeks, some a few years, depends on the species.

Sav females can become sexual mature anywhere from 6 to 18 months from what I have read, I wont be speeding it up, as the end of march is the normal time for them to become sexually active, and (s)he will be ~1 year old at that point

I'm not just basing my ideas on Ants, as I posted earlier, there are parallels in mammals aswell, and there are plenty of known examples of reptiles which require brumation or hibernation - not saying that Monitors Brumate or Hibernate, only that there is a drastic change in the environment they have adapted to over millions of years, and I think its worth finding out if it is important to their physiology...I bring up ants as one extreme example of how animals have adapted to natural cycles in ways which can mean the difference between life and death, even tho it does not at first seem logical that ants may require hibernating to survive

Daniel Bennet has also observed monitors in captivity, seemingly attempting to brumate for weeks at a time, when presented with the right set of environmental conditions to do so (mampam website)

[Starbuck]

I'm concerned form a scientific standpoint because you are altering multiple variables (climate and diet). You have no way to know which is contributing to the success/failure of your 'experiment', or if one is beneficial while the other detrimental.

[formica]

Originally Posted by Starbuck

I'm concerned form a scientific standpoint because you are altering multiple variables (climate and diet). You have no way to know which is contributing to the success/failure of your 'experiment', or if one is beneficial while the other detrimental.

certainly, as this has never been done before, there is no way to know anything at this point in time.

diet will not really change that much, the difference will be reduced fat intake, and increased water content in invertebrate foods, thats all - my Sav already gets whole prey items and insects

If my Sav remains as active as (s)he currently is, and eats as much as he currently dose, the of course the whole thing will need to be reviewed

[pdomensis]

Agree with both above. You'll never be able to say definitively if you were successful or not, but I hope it goes well. Good luck to you (and your sav).

[murrindindi]

Hi, to base this "game" on some ants you've kept shows a complete lack of care and consideration for the animal in question in my opinion.
With virtually no knowledge of the subject (the captive care of Varanids) you want to "experiment"?
There`s absolutely no need to replicate the harsher conditions they endure in the wild here in captivity (the whole idea is to reduce/eliminate those, not increase them as you`re doing)!?
If temps, humidity and food were available year round they`d remain active as many other species do. THAT is what you should be "experimenting" on (fully supporting them 24/7). Then maybe, just maybe, this animal will live a long, healthy and perhaps productive life, which is basically what we should all practically guarantee them!
Edit: The only species I`ve heard of that might require brumation in captivity to remain in good health is V. griseus (Desert monitor).

[formica]

Got that out of your system now? if you want to discuss the topic, then please do, your input would be valuable, your attacks are not useful to anyone.

as I have said numerous times, no one has shown that the natural cycles a Sav goes thru in the wild, and have adapted to thru millinos of years of evolution, are not important.