How cold is too cold?

Lefitte · 08-12-15, 03:40 AM

After spending my first full summer with a snake for a pet (and with a more sensitive species on the way), I've been a little worried about the way my house doesn't always cool down at night. After my kingsnake Eir seemed a little restless after a few days of 83 degrees, I decided to sort of make up my own "cool hide" but I'm a little worried about safety.

1. How cold is too cold for temporary, voluntary conditions?
2. What are some of the negative outcomes? Is frostbite or something like that a concern here?
3. Will the snake move before getting too cold or is there a chance of getting too cold and being unable to move away to find heat?

Snakes: Year old California king, baby BRB

Here's what I've got:
I'm taking an insulated lunch bag and putting a small ice pack wrapped in a paper towel at the bottom, folding the bottom up and using it like that. The snakes still have access to the ice pack directly if they want to. I'm currently testing the temps and the middle of the bag was staying in the mid-60s while directly on top of the ice pack was 58-60F. This idea provides my snakes with a chance to cool off during the day when my house and climate refuse to see 79. We cant really afford to run the air any more than that during summer. I live in a desert that can get 115+ during the day and mid-80s for nighttime lows in the height of summer so trying to get my house below 80 just isn't feasible and neither is a small a/c unit. Fans with ice in front of them become bowls with water in thd blink of an eye so this seems like a better option. I just want to make sure that it is safe and wont do any harm to them.

If this idea works, I want to cut up some lunch bags and stick them to a plastic hide so that it looks a little better and works the same way, I could get some netting or some to block direct contact with the icepack with this idea as well and it wouldnt look so ugly as a lunch bag sitting in a snake cage.

Tiny Boidae · 08-12-15, 04:17 AM

Brilliant idea! That's a little too cold for a desert species typically, but I don't see it becoming a major issue, especially if you could bury it under the substrate a little.

1. I'd say below 60° would be too cold, although where they naturally occur, it can get down to 40° in some of the colder months. I'd say your fine.

2. You don't have to worry about frostbite with that sort of temperature. I think frostbite only occurs at the temperature water freezes (32° and lower).

3. The snake is perfectly capable of knowing when it needs heat and when it doesn't. If it's too cold for it, it will probably sit off to the side rather than climb on the "cold rock".

Your idea with the hides will probably work btw, just don't use tape as your snake can get stuck on the adhesive

Lefitte · 08-12-15, 04:53 AM

Oh no no no, I definitely wouldnt use tape. There is some velcro but I'm not too concerned with it coming off, most likely sewn and I can always periodically check. I've actually been using a paper towel wrapped ice pack for my king already, just placing it by itself, and she loves it! But it only lasts a couple of hours. This insulated idea prolongs the ice pack. I've been testing it for 5? hours now and still reading the same temps and rock solid. I've just been worried about them being able to thermoregulate. Sure, 83 degrees isnt going to harm them but if it stays 83 for multiple days with no way to cool off? I can't see that being good idea and it was clear by the way Eir reacted to the ice pack. I slipped it in there and she was wrapped around it in no time but it never lasted long and my brb will need to a cool option even more than she does. I even looked into aquarium chillers and considered making him a chilly pool in his tank but those are so very expensive and use a lot of energy. This is the only idea that seemed do-able.

I figure I can take one of those black plastic hides and either just cover the lunch bag or cut it up and glue it to the hide or something to make it more appealing.

And yes, believe or not, here in the SoCal desert we occassionally get 18-25 degrees for nighttime winter lows! Those poor wild Cal kings must make some pretty creative home takeovers to little burrowing animals or something similar to survive haha. We also get extreme temperature swings, 30-40 degrees in just a few hours. Luckily, my house doesnt fluctuate much.

Tiny Boidae · 08-12-15, 07:08 AM

If you use a pool of water, there won't be a need for a chiller. It should stay cool enough on it's own. My bigger worry is that the BRB wouldn't recognize the water as a source of thermoregulation, or simply wouldn't like bathing in the water. Even one of my water dragons has trouble with "wet feet", so you never know.

I would keep several hides like that btw, so you can just rotate them when they need to be cooled again. It doesn't need to be extravagant- just functional.

Also another thing that might work is to get them on the bottom floor of your home (if you have multiple floors). It can be as much as 5° cooler between floors.

The BRB could probably utilize the same hide, just make it a little bigger. Or you could freeze multiple packs and bury them on the cool side of the cage, just some ideas.

Rattlehead · 08-12-15, 12:27 PM

A couple of months ago the sun was hitting directly on the walls of my apartment, making them really hot, and were staying like that most of the night. I froze a couple of 1 liter water bottles and place them over the mesh screens. That reduced a lot the temps. I have some 3M gel bags that I can freeze, for this hot summer days.

Edit: forgot to mention that I bought a fan, but it didn't work for me.

Lefitte · 08-12-15, 03:18 PM

The only issue with using ice packs around the cage is that it does absolutely nothing and. Ends up warm within a couple of hours. Neither cage has mesh. I havent tested how cool the water dish is but since its been cooler lately the cage has stayed at 77-80 but I have no heat attached yet. I only have one level in my house, super tiny house. I'm only using moss as a substrate so hiding the ice packs in that would do no good. I have various ice packs to use of all different sizes from blocks to mats. I'm really just trying to give them an option for thermoregulation since some nights we just dont cool off and it can be 83 for a week in my house. 85 was the hottest temps I've seen so far since watching cage temps temps but that was when we left the house open ans hadnt closed up. The cage is in the middle of my room on an inside wall away from direct sunlight, my window actually has a light and heat blocking curtain but I have absolutely no way to provide a gradient under 80-83 and that's a brb's hot side range so he would just always be hot.

Tiny Boidae · 08-12-15, 03:45 PM

I might, on occasion, take the BRB out and give him a bath with slightly cooler water than you would usually use (around 70-75°. Water feels colder than air so use a thermometer). Maybe once or twice a day to help keep him cool, just watch out for stress in the animal and make absolute 100% sure that the water isn't too deep or too cold- an incredibly small amount would do the trick. This is just a thought, not a confirmed idea, so just keep that in mind.

You could try something that I found on youtube. The user the leopard gecko used one of those screen laundry baskets to keep her crested gecko cool- as she didn't use air conditioning either. I wouldn't worry about keeping the humidity up as much right now (although please don't neglect this) and would rather find a solution to this heat problem until then. She used something like this btw:
http://www.containerstore.com/s/laun...:::Y&ps=60&p=0

Although with a large snake that could easily push that out, something like this could probably work:

http://www.containerstore.com/s/laun...:::Y&ps=60&p=0

Just make sure it can't get out whatever you use, ventilation is crucial with your situation.

Lefitte · 08-12-15, 04:20 PM

Haha... I would have to refridgerate that water to get it that cool. Water from the tap during the day is always very warm. The ventilation idea also has one big issue... The enclosure is no warmer than the rest of my home. In fact, it may actually be cooler! Since my whole house is 80ish, it doesnt really help to have ventilation. And humidity is a really big deal with brbs, especially babies.

Tiny Boidae · 08-12-15, 04:29 PM

I was throwing ideas around, I live in a cool area so I've never run into this sort of problem. You can try and place one of those computer fans ontop of the enclosure, just cut the wire and rig it to an old adapter. It'll help to keep the cage cool, and if you keep a humid hide, shouldn't dehydrate the animal.

Lefitte · 08-12-15, 04:37 PM

I appreciate it! I've considered little fans like that too. I just tested cage temps versus room temps and yep they're maybe a degree off.

My baby's breeder (we're hoping to ship him next week) said that she wouldn't expose a brb to under 70 so now I'm rethinking my ideas and running a few more tests. I think that if I sew some mesh to the bag with some velcro on one side or something that it will stop the issue of the snake reaching the ice pack directly and the bag should only go to 66. Im currently checking what happens when you put the bag in the fridge and use it without an ice pack. I dont think it'll stay cool for very long.

Tiny Boidae · 08-12-15, 04:44 PM

Yeah, it definitely wouldn't stay cool. When I traveled down to Georgia for a summer with my grandparents several years ago, I had only one snake and I found that the tub got too hot for him, even though outside it the temp was in the mid 60's. I had gotten a bag of ice, wrapped several layers of paper towel around it (until I got the temp I needed) and he was good to go (for a few hours... Then it melted).

You could try that with an icepack, experiment and see if you can get the temps you need.

Lefitte · 08-12-15, 04:50 PM

That reminds me that another idea was an ice pack on top of styrofoam on the bottom of the cage. I havent tried that one yet. I'm currently re-testing the bag because if I can prevent direct contact with thr ice pack it might just be perfect. I might steal my king's thermometer and try the ice pack and foam idea too. Thanks for reminding me.

Tiny Boidae · 08-12-15, 05:00 PM

It isn't a problem, I'm here to help.

Just tell us how that works out for you

Lefitte · 08-12-15, 05:08 PM

So far, ice pack directly under cage (this idea only works for plastic bins NOT my king's pvc cage which I plan to also get my brb when he grows out of this storage bin) is 59 inside the cage over a large area, under a bit of moss. Ice pack has a a cold spot of 63 with nondirect contact which gradually shifts to room temperature towards the opening so only part of the snake would be this cold at any given time.