Emulating Wild Sav Growth

[nepoez]

Hi All,

I notice that the experts here seem to have gotten down how to make their savs thrive, via deep substrate, right basking temps, humidity, food, etc.

I also often read here that trying to give them what's closest to to their natural habitat is the best. So here's something I've been thinking about.

According to Daniel Bennett's book, most adult savs in the wild are full grown to only 2 feet. Yet we are all trying to grow our savs to 3.5 - 4ft. There are dry seasons where the monitor will be less active, yet we are all trying to never let there be a dry season for our savs. And start cursing anyone who doesn't give the full humidity all year round. Of course most of those people are giving dry seasons all year round so that's the other extreme end, the bad end.

Perhaps we are going to one extreme end here where they get the best and most ideal environment every single day, which is in no way a bad thing, and which is why they grow so much bigger than their average wild relatives. BUT perhaps(now.. no need to chew me to bits here) it would also not be such a bad thing to not feed your savs as much as they need to grow to their fullest size(3.5 - 4ft), or not give them an all year humid season?

I know many will think, well if we can give them the optimal environment all year round, then why not? True, I'm not saying not to. I'm just suggesting.. the idea that maybe it's not necessarily a bad thing to give them the amount of food(IF you know the right amount), and varied seasons(both wet and drier seasons, IF u can find out the right amount) as they would in the wild. And an environment that provides them enough food and moisture and heat so they reach their wild sizes of avg 2ft, is not necessarily a bad environment. As long as we're not talking about all year round dry season and all year round lack of food to cause diseases.

Just I thought.. not sure what you guys think.

P.s. I'm not planning to do this by any chance since I'd rather not have a dry season where my savs will lay there doing nothing. I'm just bringing this up for discussion's sake No need bite my head off here(I notice some members here enjoy doing that type of thing)

[infernalis]

I don't know who's "trying" to max out their Savannah Monitors. Mine have slowed down considerably at just about 36 inches.

[smy_749]

This is a very complicated topic, if you want to provide the closest thing to natural environment, you are not providing the fundamental niche, you are providing the realized one. This means including less than optimal conditions at times, predators, sickness, etc. etc. We have to draw the line somewhere at how much of the natural environment we are trying to mimic. Don't forget that nature also tends to have a way of keeping things in balance. If each animal was kept at full capacity, full health (as is desired in captivity/pet keeping), then we would have an overpopulation/exponential growth of different species....Look at what happens when a species is removed from an environment which holds the balance , and placed in a fundamental niche (invasive species such as the cane toad).It wreaks havoc. Summary of my rant, not everything in the wild is ideal for the animal, not everything can be mimicked, nor should everything. Finding the exact place to draw the line between wild and captivity is difficult...too difficult.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by smy_749

This is a very complicated topic, if you want to provide the closest thing to natural environment, you are not providing the fundamental niche, you are providing the realized one. This means including less than optimal conditions at times, predators, sickness, etc. etc. We have to draw the line somewhere at how much of the natural environment we are trying to mimic. Don't forget that nature also tends to have a way of keeping things in balance. If each animal was kept at full capacity, full health (as is desired in captivity/pet keeping), then we would have an overpopulation/exponential growth of different species....Look at what happens when a species is removed from an environment which holds the balance , and placed in a fundamental niche (invasive species such as the cane toad).It wreaks havoc. Summary of my rant, not everything in the wild is ideal for the animal, not everything can be mimicked, nor should everything. Finding the exact place to draw the line between wild and captivity is difficult...too difficult.

+1 I like this post ^^^^

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by infernalis

+1 I like this post ^^^^

I'm learning, sitting in EEB animal behavior class atm so my mind is at work (not really, I'm not paying much attention as you can tell)

[Mark Taylor]

Originally Posted by infernalis

+1 I like this post ^^^^

Do we have rep yet? I think it would be a good idea.

[nepoez]

Originally Posted by smy_749

This is a very complicated topic, if you want to provide the closest thing to natural environment, you are not providing the fundamental niche, you are providing the realized one. This means including less than optimal conditions at times, predators, sickness, etc. etc. We have to draw the line somewhere at how much of the natural environment we are trying to mimic. Don't forget that nature also tends to have a way of keeping things in balance. If each animal was kept at full capacity, full health (as is desired in captivity/pet keeping), then we would have an overpopulation/exponential growth of different species....Look at what happens when a species is removed from an environment which holds the balance , and placed in a fundamental niche (invasive species such as the cane toad).It wreaks havoc. Summary of my rant, not everything in the wild is ideal for the animal, not everything can be mimicked, nor should everything. Finding the exact place to draw the line between wild and captivity is difficult...too difficult.

I agree on that. But my point of discussion is not about emulating it 100%. But rather, is it so bad to emulate part of it, e.g. some drier seasons(if you know how dry and how long), and slight scarcity of food(if you know how much is appropriate). And the natural size of them in the wild. Obviously there's no point in emulating predators and diseases, and other things.

I guess, to word it slightly better .... I think it would be interested to find out the difference in life span of a few well kept sav in optimal environment like Infernalis's, against the average life span of a wild sav that's only 2 feet as adult. Including only natural deaths excluding deaths from predators and viruses or other diseases, etc.

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by nepoez

I agree on that. But my point of discussion is not about emulating it 100%. But rather, is it so bad to emulate part of it, e.g. some drier seasons(if you know how dry and how long), and slight scarcity of food(if you know how much is appropriate). And the natural size of them in the wild. Obviously there's no point in emulating predators and diseases, and other things.

I guess, to word it slightly better .... I think it would be interested to find out the difference in life span of a few well kept sav in optimal environment like Infernalis's, against the average life span of a wild sav that's only 2 feet as adult. Including only natural deaths excluding deaths from predators and viruses or other diseases, etc.

I'm pretty sure it would be shorter. I don't know what defines a natural death though...They have a way of telling age by cutting off a finger digit and doing some tests on the bone, not sure how it works exactly though.

[nepoez]

Originally Posted by smy_749

I'm pretty sure it would be shorter. I don't know what defines a natural death though...They have a way of telling age by cutting off a finger digit and doing some tests on the bone, not sure how it works exactly though.

Natural death as in, did my great grand mother die of cancer, or heart attack, or gout, or high blood pressure? No, she dies of old age, that type of natural death. As best as you can do to keep the body running properly.

I have a feeling the captives will live longer too, sort of like most humans in USA(who take care of their health) live much longer than tribes in Japan or Italy.

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by nepoez

I agree on that. But my point of discussion is not about emulating it 100%. But rather, is it so bad to emulate part of it, e.g. some drier seasons(if you know how dry and how long), and slight scarcity of food(if you know how much is appropriate). And the natural size of them in the wild. Obviously there's no point in emulating predators and diseases, and other things.

I guess, to word it slightly better .... I think it would be interested to find out the difference in life span of a few well kept sav in optimal environment like Infernalis's, against the average life span of a wild sav that's only 2 feet as adult. Including only natural deaths excluding deaths from predators and viruses or other diseases, etc.

Hi, who told you wild Savannah monitors only reach 2 feet in ToL (over their whole range)?
When you say "if you know how dry and how long, and a slight scarcity of food if you know how much"? Why would you need work that out to any great degree (you can have higher ambient temps and reduce food intake easily at any time). Are you suggesting that keeping them supported 24/7 might be bad for them, if so, in what way?

[nepoez]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi, who told you wild Savannah monitors only reach 2 feet in ToL (over their whole range)?
When you say "if you know how dry and how long, and a slight scarcity of food if you know how much"? Why would you need work that out to any great degree (you can have higher ambient temps and reduce food intake easily at any time). Are you suggesting that keeping them supported 24/7 might be bad for them, if so, in what way?

- From the book "Truth about savannah monitors". whole length
- I am referring to how long the dry seasons are in say, Ghana, how much food they really get in the wild, etc.
- I am indeed suggesting that keeping them supported 24/7 365d as compared to their less than "ideal" env in the wild is an unknown factor and am curious about anyone's thoughts, or if they have actual comparisons of the 2

[nepoez]

Page 24.

[varanus_mad]

So are you suggesting we include periods of aestivation in ourhusbandry i.e. Very hot and dry/ little food to emulate what they would go through?

There is little enough info on longevity of savs kept halfway decent to start messing with stuff like that.

Specially considering we know what happens to varanids kept in those conditions

[nepoez]

Originally Posted by varanus_mad

So are you suggesting we include periods of aestivation in ourhusbandry i.e. Very hot and dry/ little food to emulate what they would go through?

There is little enough info on longevity of savs kept halfway decent to start messing with stuff like that.

Specially considering we know what happens to varanids kept in those conditions

hehe.. I have already stated what I am suggesting in my replies and your response seems to repeat previous posters concern which nullifies my responses.

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by nepoez

hehe.. I have already stated what I am suggesting in my replies and your response seems to repeat previous posters concern which nullifies my responses.

Sorry mate i skim read it the first time round.

In my opinion keeping them like waynes is currently are best option as we go on i.e. more and more people keeping like that we can experiement with including a period of reduced humidity to see how it affects savs behaviours...

I suspect we wont be ale to recreate those conditions succesfully due to the sheer size of an african savannah...

It never truly becomes a desert, deeper undeground there will be humid spots where they can hang out while they wait for the wet season to return,


I suspect the main reason for the size disprepency i.e. wild savs smaller than there captive counterparts is food availability, limited periods of boom and bust i..e high growth during a boom (wet period) then low/slower growth while in a bust season.

Typically a savs rapid growth period occurs in the first 18 months, stick a dry season in the middle of that (low food availability) growth slows down

All theoretical of course but some of my thoughts on wild sav growth vs captive growth.

Fun stuff