Fr ?

[smy_749]

So I just got into monitors, sold my snakes (I had a son and moved and what not, was easiest to sell them) and took the opportunity to try something new. I was directed to varanus.net from someone on the faunaclassifieds.

Does anyone here have experience dealing with FR on varanus? He seems to know his stuff, but he was being a real A-hole and I'm not one to be proud to admit when I'm wrong or insulted easily. Also when I post a question he writes a whole page, which has nothing to do with the question, and filled with why I'm such an idiot on monitors. I said the word "arboreal" just referring to a taller cage as opposed to a wider cage, and he wrote a long response because I wasn't planning to build a cage around a redwood tree or something. Then someone asked why eggs are sticky and others are not, and I said something about predation, and evolutionary explanation perhaps....and he told me to basically stop talking and learn how to house a monitor properly. ....Sort of shocked at the rudeness and hoping not every 'expert' is the same.

[KORBIN5895]

Lol! That's so funny. He is a tool with some antiquated techniques.

We have several actual biologist, zoologist, scientist and old fashioned hands on experts here. In other words we really have the greatest minds here on ssnakess. Infernalis will be along shortly and he can help you out or tell you who on here you should talk to.

[monitorlizard]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

We have several actual biologist, zoologist, scientist and old fashioned hands on experts here.

May I ask who?

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by monitorlizard

May I ask who?

Hi, how about Dr. David Kirshner (crocdoc), Dr. Daniel Bennett (BodiddleyItis), Prof. Dr. Sam Sweet, the late Dr. Mark Bayless, all have made valuable contributions to the captive care of Varanids for many years on this and many other forums. I`m sure there are other scientists that visited/were members here, too. I have a diploma in zoology, and have done several other animal related courses (not Varanid specific).
Everyone has something to contribute (including the private hobbyist), and (wishful thinking) we might see a day where they LIVE in their thousands rather than DIE, as it is now....
As far as Mr. Frank Retes is concerned, most of us are using many of his methods, and most of the time the advise he offers is great (now and again it`s not so good)... (Shhhh)...
I too was involved in the discussion about whether Lace monitors (V. varius) laid almost exclusively in termite nests in the wild in the more temperate regions, it was tough going, I`m not sure he accepts even now that that`s what they do (but IT IS)!!!

[smy_749]

I'm in my last semester of Microbiology, however I just crammed and then forgot most of it at the end of each semester so I although I wish I could help in that department, I dont think I will be of much use :S lol

[crocdoc]

Originally Posted by monitorlizard

Most of the arguments I have seen on various forums involve some kind of misinterpretation, reading something incorrectly, stubbornness, or someone making a personal attack.

That's because people like myself don't post on his forum and rarely post on the other forum on which he is a regular. You'd have seen an entirely different type of argument, otherwise.

Most of the arguments I've had with him have been about the behaviour of wild monitors, particularly lace monitors, which both of us keep and breed (although I don't think he's breeding them any more, as he's run out of females). He's been to Australia a handful of times on holiday, I live here. Consequently I see more lace monitors in the wild in an average year than he'll see in his lifetime, yet he would argue endlessly with me about what they do or don't do in the wild (and the attacks started with him). Sure, to most of you, arguments about the behaviour of wild monitors is academic, since you're keeping captives and will probably never see one in the wild, however sometimes the behaviour of wild monitors can influence how they are kept in captivity. FR loves to tell people that his trips to Australia were fact-finding trips that changed the way he kept them and also to find out information on breeding them, so he claimed that to him the behaviour of wild monitors was very important in determining his husbandry.

The last big argument we had concerned him ignoring a crucial behaviour of wild lace monitors (nesting in termite mounds), to the point of denying that it's a common occurrence (like one would be able to tell from an armchair in front of a computer in AZ) and consequently being responsible for the death of several (if not all) of his female lace monitors, through poor nesting. His followers, who had never been to Australia, assumed he must be right and tried to join in the argument. It was bizarre.

Our other big point of difference is this:

Originally Posted by monitorlizard

Also, FR does not use academics for many parts of his monitor husbandry(which he has said).

It is one thing not to use academic literature for husbandry but it's something else again to go on an anti-science, academic-bashing rant at every opportunity.

smy_749, in answer to your question:

Originally Posted by smy_749

What does he think ecologists do? Twiddle their thumbs in the woods and then go home?

Yes, he does think that. He thinks that he sees things no academic does (how he missed the scars in termite mounds while on a lace monitor fact-finding trip to Australia is beyond me). He constantly carries on about field biologists and academics, mainly because he doesn't understand the science.

Don't get me wrong, most academic publications aren't helpful towards captive husbandry. That is not their aim, because people that study wild animals don't publish articles with the intention in mind of improving captive husbandry - they are interested in the behaviour of wild animals.

However, sometimes scientific publications on wild animals can be very helpful to husbandry. Many years ago I tried telling FR about one item in particular that would have saved him (in hindsight, many years later) a lot of grief, but instead we had one of our first big fights. I used the information and have been producing baby monitors ever since.

I've heard many people say that, in person, he's a nice guy. Online, however, his goal above all else seems to be self-aggrandizement rather than the promotion of good monitor husbandry.

[smy_749]

I'm tempted to post all the stuff he's said to me in the passed week, but its too much work. It includes many many many posts about how stupid I am for saying the word arboreal, apparently its a banned word. It also includes being an idiot for asking about a species to do an ecology project on for my EEB class. Using a temp gun to go outside and this will make what I learn in school useless....O.o ? Example of what I put up with " How hot should my basking spot be? How cold do you let your tank drop to at night? " and the answers are something like

" You sound like a beginer, as such you think all those temps and such are meaningful and if you do that, your animal will be great. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm sorry, thats not how it works. Not with monitors. "

Anyways, the reason for me posting, is I posted here, and on the reptileforum.co.uk and you guys seemed more down to earth. If one thing drives me nuts, its when a person forgets where he started out, --> knowing nothing.

[crocdoc]

Sounds like a typical FR experience. Lol.


Many of us have been there, done that.

Originally Posted by smy_749

If one thing drives me nuts, its when a person forgets where he started out, --> knowing nothing.

It's worse than that - in some instances he forgets where he still is --> knowing nothing. A year and a bit ago he and I had a huge argument about whether or not certain species of Australian monitor nest in termite mounds in the wild. I said they did, he said they didn't. This has implications for how they are kept in captivity if one wants to breed them.

He lives in Arizona. I live in...er... Australia, but he still argued like a fool and his followers sided with him (although they'd never been to Australia).

At one point in the argument, he said that if monitors nested in termite mounds, they'd leave visible scars.

I replied "yes" and then posted a dozen or so photographs similar to this (I have hundreds):


For a sensible person, that would have been a hint to cut one's losses and stop arguing for fear of looking like a fool, but no, that didn't happen and he carried on regardless.

That's not the only evidence I have, of course, and I think he'd soil himself if he had any idea of what observations I've made over the years.



However, I know when and where information is wasted. Discussing the behaviour of wild monitors on forums at which he and his minion hang out is tantamount to mentioning evolution in a creationist bible class.

He does know his stuff when it comes to captives, but he's not the only one out there that does and with other people you don't have to sift through as large a slag heap to find gold.

[smy_749]

I'm not big on people who boast and flaunt achievements, the more you come to know, the more you realize how much you don't know. He told me to go to borneo and measure temps with a gun to figure out temperatures for my rudi... I had to leave, I thought he was going to tell me the only way to keep a rudicollis is to move to Borneo or Malaysia, and build a tree house.

I like to take the middle path, not going to extreme ends. He seems to be on the extreme end (his experience with captive breeding) and lacking on the scientific end. Both of which, in my opinion, seem to fail when solely relied upon.

Anyways, formerly introducing myself----> 23 year old molecular and cell biology 5th year major (I like to take time off ). I'm from CT, (I think pretty close to infernalis if hes in NY like his profile shows) and it sucks here.
I'm half Egyptian and half Lithuanian or something....Got my first monitor (black roughneck) but have been keeping other herps on and off since I got my first anole at 6 years old. And I still don't know much of anything except basic husbandry and the names of basically everything.

[crocdoc]

Yeah, the anti-science brigade runs large on those forums.

Any hint that you may have been in one of the biological sciences would have set you up as a target.

[KORBIN5895]

You know doc I was think the same thing about fr's knowledge.

[infernalis]

I pretty much gave up posting anything at all on kingsnake, and I refuse to waste time with V.net....

[jarich]

Its funny, apparently he is a very nice guy in real life, or so Ive been told by people who have met him. All I know of him is his online presence, which is childish. He does have experience, but the problem is that he gets in the way of that experience. There are many examples like the one Dave gave where he assumes something and then is unwilling to think otherwise, even when presented with proof. As Wayne and Dave said, not worth the hassle. Although its sort of a guilty pleasure to go on kingsnake and taunt him from time to time. He's so easy to wind up.

[poison123]

Idk about his monitors but i do love the techniques he uses for snakes. I've never talked to him though.

[Scale_fever]

I once was a dedicated loyal member there! Now i just browse the forum.I'm done with his rudeness and his minions ganging upon the less educated,or hungry for knowledge. my experience there was to a point of no return.In my case i tried something new & got called pretty much stupid. Here's a link http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/varan...sion-mine.html Once i put him on the spot his attitude changed,he apolagized but it still didn't fix what was said. So i am done there posting! Here has some ups and downs. But you will have the 100 percent support of our members instead of jumping on you and getting gang banged!