Reptile Importation Ethics

[BarelyBreathing]

So, this is "BB's" husband...

In an effort to establish clear positions on all topics related to the reptile hobby, I would like to ask the hobby at large their opinions on the ethics of reptile importation from the wild.

Ready? FIGHT!

-"hubby"

[StudentoReptile]

The importation by itself isn't a huge issue, unless we talking about the sheer volume and the conditions of animal species being imported. What I am assuming you are getting at is the collection of wild specimens to be imported.

Its been discussed to death many times, on this forum and others. Some people are pretty black and white with it, only advocating CBB stock and diametrically opposed to anything wildcaught. Others could care less.
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My personal views on the matter are as follows...

I used to be pretty opposed to WC myself, especially of our native herp species, but I soon realized it was very hypocritical of me. A lot of my own animals were WC over the years, and as many have pointed out, why is it okay to still import hundreds of ball pythons & baby savannah monitors but not okay to take in the occasional speckled kingsnake or box turtle? Of course, one should always know how to care for the animals they keep, regardless of origin, but that's beside the point.

I try to look at the big picture. Yes, it sucks that a lot of species are WC and imported into our country by the truckloads every year. Most die in transit, and the majority of the rest die within months. Only a lucky few end up in the care of someone who knows what they are doing. But the reptile trade is a huge machine to oppose. Unless EVERYONE is united and onboard about changing some things, millions of WC herps will perish on our shores every year, and a select handful of us who say "I will NEVER buy wildcaught again!" won't change a thing.

Here are other things to think about. The collectors are making mere dollars a day going out in the harsh bush gathering up herps for the pet trade, skin trade, food, etc. just to put food on their table. These are in 3rd world countries. These people could give a rat's tail about that bagful of baby ball pythons is going. They're just doing a job to get paid. If you think it will make a difference, hop on a plane to Togo, Ghana, or Benin, talk to these people face to face and explain to them what they're doing might be considered "unethical" by some selfish exotic pet keepers in the U.S. (really, that is what we are). I'm not trying to come down on anyone; just trying to show the big picture here.

And more than once, someone will pop on here and ask what they should do with the garter snake or brown snake they just found in their backyard. Most of the time, the response is "Let it go. Wild animals belong in the wild." How hypocritical is that? Its not like the person is going out and mass-collecting every garter snake he can find? Heck, they just got a free pet; big deal! And as Wayne has pointed out, that snake just got a free ride: comfy living conditions, little exposure to disease or predators, no hunting for food. Life just got good!
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In an ideal world, everything would be domesticated, CBB...everyone would take excellent care of their animals, etc. But it isn't. As the saying goes, wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which fills up faster. Let's focus on what is real and what we CAN change.

In the end, each hobbyist has to conduct themselves how they feel is right. But the entire ethics of the whole thing is pretty muddled, and the whole WC vs CBB debate gets old and hypocritical on both sides. IN my book, with the rate we're destroying habitat everywhere, most of these species have (and deserve) an equal chance of living a semi-quality life in a glass box as opposed to succumbing to pollution or a bulldozer's tread. Sometimes I do have to agree with Tom Crutchfield's slogan "Conservation through Commercialization."

[shaunyboy]

imo it depends on what species are being imported from the wild

if it's a species where there are thousands of captive bred available,then i see NO point in it

if its a species like the carpet python,where its been the case that the Australian Government,banned ALL reptile exportation since 1982,then i would be ok with that,as we could be doing with some new bloodlines,since most carpets in Europe and the UK,are all from bloodlines dating before 1982

there have been a very small amount of carpet pythons imported through 1 or 2 breeders in Europe,but us mere mortals have no access to do the same,so unless we are willing to part with a small fourtune,to said breeders,we have to continue to keep and work with old bloodlines,with next to no reliable lineage being available

so for me it all hinges on,the reason behind why the wild imports that are being done

cheers shaun

P.S.forgot to say.....

Hello mr BB

[exwizard]

Interesting topic. Before I say this I just want to point out that the following is only my opinions based on what Ive seen and how I look at things of this nature.

I have no issues with someone who catches or keeps wc snakes for whatever reason. I myself do not nor ever will keep wc snakes as I believe we have enough cbb snakes to choose from, either as pets or as breeding projects. All of my snakes are cbb and I have some interesting species to work with. Am I hypocritical for taking this stance? I think not. I know that all cbb snakes, if you trace back their lineage far enough back, got their start as wc but thats irrelevant to the snakes we're dealing with now. Captive breeding does take the pressure off their wild counterparts and helps to relieve this need to catch more wild snakes and this I applaud.

My stance in this issue only applies to myself and what I would do. What others do is not my concern as it has no effect on my current collection. Am I selfish for thinking that? Again, I think not because I am not here to look over everyone's shoulders to make sure everyone else is "doing it right". I just need to make sure I don't violate my own conscience.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I think if we over-import endangered or protected species, it's a bad thing. But, if we just bring a few over every once in awhile and breed them (if possible), wouldn't it be beneficial? Some people say species saved in captivity is a species dead. Why? I may not know much, but if future generations are raised so that they have the mentality of living in the wild, aren't they still saved? The chances of people doing that are slim, but I think a species still alive whether in captivity or not is still being saved. I don't agree with the way they transport the imported snakes, it would be good if it was safer.
I could care less if someone's pet was imported. I have no control over what other people do. Unless it was endangered/protected and couldn't be bred in captivity, to each his own.

[jaleely]

Oh bb-hubby! (rhyme) starting a row, are we?

No importation needed at any time for any reason!

[CDN_Blood]

My thoughts on this are pretty black and white - I see absolutely no need to take anything from the wild in this day and age. Unfortunately, as long as people do find it acceptable and keep buying wild-caught animals, other people are going to keep collecting them from their natural habitats.

It's a vicious circle and it starts with the consumers, but since 90% of keepers out there are clueless, unethical and totally self-absorbed in their own desire to own something exotic even if they don't have the means and knowledge to maintain the animal, it's not likely to change anytime soon. It's a sad, sad, sad state of affairs in my opinion

[exwizard]

Originally Posted by exwizard

Interesting topic. Before I say this I just want to point out that the following is only my opinions based on what Ive seen and how I look at things of this nature.

I have no issues with someone who catches or keeps wc snakes for whatever reason. I myself do not nor ever will keep wc snakes as I believe we have enough cbb snakes to choose from, either as pets or as breeding projects. All of my snakes are cbb and I have some interesting species to work with. Am I hypocritical for taking this stance? I think not. I know that all cbb snakes, if you trace back their lineage far enough back, got their start as wc but thats irrelevant to the snakes we're dealing with now. Captive breeding does take the pressure off their wild counterparts and helps to relieve this need to catch more wild snakes and this I applaud.

My stance in this issue only applies to myself and what I would do. What others do is not my concern as it has no effect on my current collection. Am I selfish for thinking that? Again, I think not because I am not here to look over everyone's shoulders to make sure everyone else is "doing it right". I just need to make sure I don't violate my own conscience.

Originally Posted by jaleely

Oh bb-hubby! (rhyme) starting a row, are we?

No importation needed at any time for any reason!

Originally Posted by CDN_Blood

My thoughts on this are pretty black and white - I see absolutely no need to take anything from the wild in this day and age. Unfortunately, as long as people do find it acceptable and keep buying wild-caught animals, other people are going to keep collecting them from their natural habitats.

It's a vicious circle and it starts with the consumers, but since 90% of keepers out there are clueless, unethical and totally self-absorbed in their own desire to own something exotic even if they don't have the means and knowledge to maintain the animal, it's not likely to change anytime soon. It's a sad, sad, sad state of affairs in my opinion

Reptile Student, I see nothing hypocritical here. Seems pretty consistent to me, but what do I know?

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by exwizard

Reptile Student, I see nothing hypocritical here. Seems pretty consistent to me, but what do I know?

I'm not attacking any one individual's viewpoints. exwizard, I have stated before that I respect your stance on this matter. My comments were meant in a more broad, generalized sense; i.e. I often come across the "all WC animals are bad and to be avoided, and CBB animals are the ONLY way to go" argument all too often, and it simply does not wash with me.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both WC and CB, and as Shaun pointed out, a lot depends on the exact species being discussed. If we were talking about ball pythons and savannah monitors, I would tend to agree with most that regulating/prohibiting importation into the U.S. for the pet trade would solve a lot of problems. A lot less people would be buying them on impulse, and the market for the animals would improve because EVERY specimen would be CBB. The downside is that more WC animals being collected would just go to the skin and food trades instead.

But then we have shaun's example with the rough-scaled python.

And I also hold to my stance on habitat destruction, something that happens globally. Personally, I would rather go out and collect a group of say, eastern box turtles from a nearby bog and stick them in a pen in my backyard rather than leave them there to get pulverized when the bog is smoothed over and turned into a mini mall. What's ethical in that situation? Leave the wild animals in their natural environment, or save them from inevitable doom? Or let's go back to savannah monitors....is it ethical to leave them in Africa where they're just as likely to get collected and turned into a leather wallet or roasted on a spit, or maybe just maybe give one a half chance at surviving in a wood box in captivity as a "pet?"

Again, I'm not attacking anyone's personal stance, and I once more, applaud those who do adhere strictly to CBB stock; just pointing out that in some cases, the issue is not black and white.

With CBB animals, the quality is better, no doubt. But in some species, it means low or no supply.

Not all WC animals are bad. Some of the best herps I have had over the years were WC specimens. I can only recall a few instances with significant issues, and I believe those issues stemmed more from misunderstanding proper husbandry of the species in question, and had little to do with whether or not it was WC or CBB.

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by CDN_Blood

My thoughts on this are pretty black and white - I see absolutely no need to take anything from the wild in this day and age. Unfortunately, as long as people do find it acceptable and keep buying wild-caught animals, other people are going to keep collecting them from their natural habitats.

It's a vicious circle and it starts with the consumers, but since 90% of keepers out there are clueless, unethical and totally self-absorbed in their own desire to own something exotic even if they don't have the means and knowledge to maintain the animal, it's not likely to change anytime soon. It's a sad, sad, sad state of affairs in my opinion

take Rough Scaled Carpet Pythons, Morelia Carinata the only carpet python with keeled scales.....

first discovered in 1976 by researcher Dr Ron Johnestone,during a fauna survey of the Mitchell Falls area of the Kimberley region in Australia's remote north west.he only found 1 specimen

John Weigel set out in 1997 with 4 other people but were unsuccessful in finding any roughies

a 2nd example was found in 1987 by a survey team from the Western Australian Museum

Trent Russell beat John Weigel to the punch and found a RoughScaled juvenile in 1993

a year later John and Trent went back and John found a young adult specimen

in 1998 after encouragement from Proffeser Richard Shine #(who has done tremendous work with studies of the Diamond Python in the wild)# John applied for a permit from C.A.L.M to collect a founder group of these RARE pythons

it took 3 years and 3 extended trips to secure the targeted 5 " founder " specimens (its now 2001)

^^^^^
the above is the very shortened version of Morelia Carinata

and my case for.....

Todd even in this day and age,there are GOOD reasons for taking wild snakes

in Australia,roughie's are now kept by private breeders and due to being easy to breed and high clutch rates.Roughies are now very common

last year 2 pair,were given to 2 breeders in Europe,so now i have a chance that,i never thought would be possible...

i will be able to enjoy keeping these beautifull,once rare,keeled scale pythons sometime in the next 5 years

not having a go Todd,merely pointing out there are still cases where there may be a need to take from the wild

one of Australia's RAREST Pythons,have now become one of the most popular kept over in oz

cheers shaun

[exwizard]

I understand and thank you.

[shaunyboy]

StudentoReptile

another example would be.....

Oenpelli Python Morelia oenpelliensis...

the Oenpelli being amongst the more recently discovered Australian pythons,described by Graham Gow in 1977 as a large python that reaches a legnth of 4.5 metres and Aboriginal people familar with this python suggest it grows even bigger

it is also one of FEW pythons that has the ability to change colour

mating occurs June to August with 6 to 9 large eggs laid in October to November.hatching occurs in January to Febuary

the Oenpelli is regarded as VULNERABLE in the North Territory

Peter Krauss has kept a pair of these pythons since 1974.....

the Oenpelli is now a specially protected animal

a few lucky people get to work with and keep these rare snakes

another case of imo a snake needing to be taken from the wild,then placed into the correct breeders hands

so imo even in this day and age,there are GOOD reasons for taking wild snakes

cheers shaun

[StudentoReptile]

Exactly!

In so many cases, zoos have proven themselves inadequate for maintaing breeding colonies/pairs of endangered animals. Too much red tape and politics, nothing gets done, and by the time, they finally decide to put male A with female B, the animals in question are too old to reproduce!

Granted, I agree that sometimes, the greed of the pet trade gets in the way of things, but if you just stick some of these endangered herp species in the hands of some dedicated keepers who genuinely know what they're doing, you'll get some CBB offspring!

[exwizard]

... if you just stick some of these endangered herp species in the hands of some dedicated keepers who genuinely know what they're doing, you'll get some CBB offspring!

IMO this works ONLY in a perfect world.

[exwizard]

Im confused. Shaun, you give an example of a snake regarded as vulnerable, thus protected by the Australian government as a reason why its good to take snakes from the wild. In my mind, this does not compute.