Ahhh Help with Mossy Leaf-tailed Gecko Questions Pleeease!

HumphreyBoagart · 02-27-05, 09:08 PM

I just picked up a couple sub-adult/adult Mossy Leaf-tails today and was reading my @$$ off about them, and to no surprise most of it contradicts each other. Just a couple questions, hopefully someone can help. Please and thanks.
First off, I got mulch and sphagnum moss for them today at the show, and noticed on the bag it says this, just like this:

Advanced Terrarium Systems

*BARK MULCH
*PINE BARK

3lb.
(15-20 gallon tank)

EXCELLENT FOR FOREST ANIMALS
REQUIRING HIGHER HUMIDITY

I always thought and just read again that pine is toxic to all lizards, I asked the guy selling about it and he told me that the oils are extracted and it's exactly what I need. Is this true? Or is it going to kill my pricey new creatures? Also I don't know if the asterix's (sp?)(stars) beside where it says BARK MULCH and PINE BARK is just sort of a check off box identifying which one it is that was unmarked or if it's both or what. I am unsure of this because the bag of sphagnum is in the exact same bag and sphagnum is just written on it with marker.
Also I've read several contradicting things about UVB lighting. Some say you need it, some say you don't.
Any help would be greatly appreciated as I'm in a mad panic!
Thanks so much.
Craig

Manitoban Herps · 02-27-05, 09:51 PM

I have used pine shavings for years and haven't had a single problem, I wouldn't worry about it.

HumphreyBoagart · 02-27-05, 10:04 PM

thanks for the reply, what about ingestion though and possible impaction? Theres twigs and sticks in there too.

StickyToes · 02-27-05, 10:30 PM

I would just ditch the mulch and either go with regular peat moss you can get at any home improvement store, or pick up a block of the coconut fiber bedding. Which one you chose will depend on whether or not you are planting anything directly in the vivarium. Impaction shouldn't really be a huge concern as they deal with twigs and sticks everytime they hunt in the wild, but they are really sensitive to their environment so the phenol oils found in pine could be a detriment to their health in the long run so why take the risk?
I've always used UV lighting for all my uroplatus that I have kept over the years. I remember there being a lot of debate over this about 5 or 6 years ago when many breeders were having problems with hatchlings and one of the solutions that some german breeders found was full spectrum lighting. They are a nocturnal species of gecko, but they can spend a huge amount of time "basking" during the day as they pretend to be one with the trees, so it only stands to reason that full spectrum lighting can be beneficial!

Hope this all helps and post some pics for us!
James

HumphreyBoagart · 02-27-05, 10:45 PM

Cool thanks James.
I decided about ten minutes ago on the exact same thing you just suggested! LOL I figured it wasn't worth the risk, so I put a layer of coconut mulch and put sphagnum on top of that.
I also just read about the same thing you just said about the UVB lighting and breeding! Most of the care sheets said it isn't necessary but can be beneficial. I figure I just paid two arms and a leg for them, so I'd like to be as beneficial as possible. : )
I'll post pics in a couple minutes after I snap a couple. I already know they aren't going to look half as nice on film, but that's how it usually goes! Thank you so much for the help. Also it said UVB lighting can encourage breeding so I figure I'll go get a dozen or so 4ft 8.0 UVB bulbs for them tomorrow! : ) Any other care or breeding tips would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Again,
Craig

Ptindy · 02-27-05, 11:41 PM

Hey Craig, I know this has been stated but I will support the solution, I too use coco bedding as my substrate. For my satanics I use a mixture of coco fiber, peat moss and sphagnum moss because it is live planted but the mossy's have a fake pothos so I just used coco fiber. I personally am not using UVB for my Uroplatus but that is your decision. Neil Meister said he had success with and without. But if you use UVB I wouldn't supplement them with calcium as much as I would without. Good luck! Also, they require high humidity as your know but make sure your substrate isn't drenched, just moist or it could grow some aweful bacteria. And let the enclosure dry out between mistings, not the substrate completely, just the water droplets and puddles on the leaves from misting. Good luck.

Mike

HumphreyBoagart · 02-27-05, 11:48 PM

Awesome thanks for the tips. Do you mean Neil Meister has had success keeping or breeding them without UVB? or both?
Thanks Again,
Hump.

Ptindy · 02-28-05, 01:17 AM

Both.

Mike

StickyToes · 02-28-05, 02:14 AM

Glad to help Craig!

It is also very important to use a proper multivitamin to dust the crickets with. I use Rep-cal Herptivite as it has no preformed vitamin A in it. The crickets are dusted with this once a week, sometimes twice, depending on the rotation. I use Mineral-I as a calcium supplement, and on the off days I dust with GGD to slow the crickets down and give them a more visible target.
I personally have always kept UV lights over my Uroplatus as I've never really had access to snails as a supplemental source of calcium. I've also always kept them in fully planted vivariums, so the lighting was essential for the plants anyways. I'm not trying to contradict Mike and what Neil has told him though as I've also chatted with Neil about the ins and out of UV lighting. The important thing to be careful of is the amount of D3 they get if you do use UV lighting as this directly affects their uptake of this vitamin and they can be overdosed on D3. It is less likey to overdose them on calcium though. They do have endolymphatic sacs just like day geckos and it is believed that both genuses use these to store calcium for egg production and balance. Everytime my female phantasticus lays eggs I see the size of those bad boys decrease, so it becomes a good indicator of how well they are being supplemented! It will be harder to see them in sikorae, but from what I understand they should still be there to a certain extent.
Check here http://www.gekkota.com/html/listserve.html for all the "chatter" that goes down amongst some of the breeders around the world.
Keep us posted on how they do for you!
James

HumphreyBoagart · 02-28-05, 04:53 PM

thanks for the info and link, it is greatly appreciated. I am using Rep-cal Phosphorus Free Calcium with D3. So should I dust crickets twice a week without UVB lighting and once a week with UVB? Does that sound right?
I'm not sure I understand this sentence. "It will be harder to see them in sikorae, but from what I understand they should still be there to a certain extent."
What should still be there to a certain extent?
Thanks Again,
Craig

StickyToes · 03-01-05, 01:42 AM

Sorry for the confusion. What I was referring to was the endolymphatic sacs. They are easy to see in the ebenaui group, but way more difficult to spot in the fimbriatus group due to the dermal folds on the neck. If you supplement too much the sacs will be rather large and I imagine this can cause the same sort of problems that can sometimes occur in Phelsuma, especially for males. If the female is laying eggs you would probably want to be sure that she is absorbing enough calcium from her diet and having slightly noticeable endolymphatic sacs would be a good indicator of this.
Here's a pic of my female phantasticus just before laying a clutch.

You can see the sacs are visible, and they decrease each time she lays a clutch of eggs.
Your supplement schedule sounds fine. Like I said already, it isn't the amount of calcium but the amount of D3 that can be more harmful first and foremost.
For UV lighting I use a 2.0 and a 5.0, as well as a vita-lite for the benefit of the plants, and I'm not sure you would want to use 8.0s as they are designed with desert reptiles in mind. I rotate the supplements as one day on and one day off, and I don't end up feeding everyday, so they roughly get calcium and multivitamin once a week, sometimes twice a week for one of the supplements. If that makes sense! Long day!

Hope that clears it up for you!
James

little_dragon_ · 03-01-05, 01:00 PM

I use a 5.0 zoo med for my phants. And coco fiber as substrate

HumphreyBoagart · 03-01-05, 05:42 PM

Cool thanks for the help guys.
So you want these sacs to be noticable, but not too big, is that correct? I'll get a Zoomed 5.0 then, do you know what it is called?
Cause I know there's a few different 5.0's. Rainforest dwellers or something along those lines isn't it?
Is there anything you can do to induce breeding or do they just do it when they feel like it. Also, unless you see them breed, is there any way to tell that there's eggies in her? Can you see them like a leopard gecko's? Or will she have a big belly or anything?
Thanks Again
Craig

nimrodfiftyfour · 03-02-05, 01:14 AM

I actually use a more sterile set up. I've had great success keeping U.sikora and U. fimbriatus on care fresh that I change bi-weekly.

StickyToes · 03-02-05, 03:16 AM

Quote:

So you want these sacs to be noticable, but not too big, is that correct?

If the sacs are getting really large and noticeable you know it is time to cut back on the cal/d3 supplement....So, yes, that is correct. If they are present that is fine, and this is also a way to gauge calcium uptake in breeding females especially. This isn't really a hard fast rule with all uroplatus, just something to generally go by.
The 2 different 5.0 bulbs are essentially the same, just one is an "iguana" light. Makes no difference really as iguanas are still tropical lizards and the wavelength output is no different if I'm not mistaken.
Do you know whether or not they are wild caught, and how long they have been in captivity if they are? Sometimes it can take a year or two for wild caught Uroplatus to "settle" and actually begin breeding. Breeding is typically "induced" through seasonal temperature changes, with a cooling period often required with most Uroplatus to mimic temperature changes in the wild. Keep in mind that these are not your typical lizards and require much lower temperatures then what most lizards require. Supplemental heating of the cage will discourage any successful attempts at breeding, and could potentially kill them depending on the ambient temp of the room they are in. When they do start breeding though you will notice a difference in the size of the females belly when she is producing eggs!

James