how do you feel about this?

[BoAddict]

i was discussing this with someone else the other day and we both had very different views on the subject.


ok when you sell an animal to someone how long do you guarentee it?


i feel if you are hand picking and are right there and there is no shipping involved then when the buyer takes it home and has it in his care i can not be responsible for it as i have no idea of how they are gonna keep it.

if shipping an animal im not sure as ive never shipped but if they are happy and have no complaints within the first 48 hours then i think its fair, if they call or contact within the first 48 hours with concerns then yes i would be open to extending for the reason that they are concerned.

what are your opininons on this i know there is no right and wrong answer to this but if there are valid points made then i might just addopt some new ways too if you open my eyes

Mike

[Invictus]

48 hours seems perfectly reasonable to me.

[nicola_boulton]

i agree with Invictus

[AtlanticReptile]

48 hours is fine, but if the reptile dies a week or 2 later due to medical reasons not caused by the buyer, some high end breeders may request the body to determine cause of death and then may give refund or replace the animal. If your shipping and don'e hear anything within 48 hours consider the sale final, but a 48 hour guarentee is perfectly reasonable,

[annieb_mice]

Good question... How long IS an appropriate length of time to "guarantee" an animal?
Personally, I don't breed reptiles, so I really can't comment from a "seller's" point of view, but having bought a number of reptiles, I will respond from a "buyers" point of view.
I have rarely had any problems with any of the reptiles I bought, as I prefer to buy the animals in person. I think a 48 hour guarantee on animals, or a certificate of health from a qualified and experienced reptile vet, is more than reasonable. Ok... obviously for the "low end" reptiles, a vet certificate is not something that is financially reasonable. But for the more expensive morphs and exotics, I think it might help set the buyer's mind at ease.
I think that a large number of problems that happen when a person buys a reptile, are the result of a lack of knowledge on the animal. Many of these problems can be "fixed" with the seller making sure the buyer has some basic knowledge of how to care for the animal he is buying. I am a firm believer in care sheets and think that every animal sold should come with at least a "basic" care sheet and some details on what the animal is currently feeding on and how often it eats. As well as a description of a good basic cage setup with temperature and humidity details.
For those animals that DO become sick or die within a SHORT period of time after being bought, I think, depending on the conditions the animal was being kept in at the buyers, the seller should compensate the buyer. If an animal dies within hours of being sold, and has no "injuries," there is a good chance it is not the buyer's fault. Obviously a necropsy would be needed to determine the cause of death.
Anyways... I'll stop rambling on now...
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[justinO]

a real breeder, as in store/business, i would say 48 hours for sure for any reason, 2 weeks due to medical (with proof of course) reasons..... should have FULL refund or credit.

private sales, a day, maybe two..... if anything. i know if i sell something the money is already spent! some people might be able to refund or get another animal but usually not if it's just the one snake they were selling. some who do alot of private sales should do the refund thing mainly for reputation purposes.

i know most stores don't though, or give a crappy credit, if any credit, when they know the animals won't make it.
grrrrr @ them.

Jessy

[AtlanticReptile]

Jessy made a good point, if you do a lot of sales you wanna keep a good reputation



AtlanticReptiles

Nick

[M_surinamensis]

Well... A guarantee period is really a direct respresentation of how confident a breeder/dealer is in the quality of their animals. Minor husbandry mistakes won't take an animal out for a week or two generally so a longer period for a guarantee simplt means a more confident dealer... only dealers who can afford to be confident and stay in business long as those which warrant it. Mistakes happen even to the best individuals, the true measure of a dealer isn't how they take care of customers when everything is going right, it's how they react to problems. Personally I feel much more comfortable buying from someone who's been the victim of a third party mishap and took the loss and protected their customer than someone unproven.

As a bare minimum live arrival/healthy arrival is inherently guaranteed for non-wholesale situations or when not discussed in advance of the sale. The customer paid for a live animal and probably paid for a healthy animal so anything less than this is simply misrepresentation of a product. Anything above and beyond that is entirely the result of the dealer's confidence in their animals.

Always remember that, as a dealer, the buyer is a supplicant, they approached YOU about an exchange (of either money or animals or goods/services), by making your terms of service clear from the outset you protect yourself for potentially negatove situations. There needs to be a cutoff point where a dealer is no longer responsible for an animal and can't be forced into culpability ("Remember, that snake I bought two years ago? It died, you owe me a new one." is a dealer's worst nightmare). Plus if they're YOUR terms, YOU can always choose to step outside of them. If for instance you offer a one week guarantee, a customer purchases an animal and verifies that it arrived alive and healthy, eight days go by and the animal succumbs to an internal deformity that neither you or your customer could have forseen- you can choose to issue a refund even though your guarantee technically expired in the interests of customer service and because it's really the right thing to do or you can choose to write them off (and never see a repeat customer again), the choice is yours.

A terms of sale page is possibly the second most valuable characteristic a dealer can have... A good solid well earned reputation is first, but every action a dealer takes, every sale they make which never requires the guarantee to even be considered, animal they produce that ends up with a happy customer and person they help get started all work towards establishing that reputation.

[M_surinamensis]

Oh... and just my personal opinion here but there are certain non-mutable traits an animal posesses which should be covered by a longer guarantee period. "Healthy" can change if the buyer isn't knowledgeable enough or accidently exposes the animal to dangers... Gender doesn't, genotype doesn't... So if a dealer offers 48 hours-two weeks or whatever for health, I believe that there should be a longer period of time during which the customer should verify any important selling points like gender... I do not think it should be guaranteed forever though, anyone who really needs to know the gender of an animal should be able to determine it themselves (when possible) but I understand that not everyone can pop or probe a snake and that some lizards have males which aren't as obviously developed and mistakes can happen... Giving a buyer a month or so to hunt down someone who does know how to verify the gender is only good business but it all becomes sticky if they find out the animal they bought isn't the animal they reccieved a few years later when they go to breed it (although nobody seems to complain when there's a price difference in their favor).

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

BOADDICT:

I think you knew I was going to respond to this post. Well simply the person you mention in your post is me because we discussed this yesterday and even though we see things on 2 different ends you forgot to mention the main focus of this post being why we were on 2 different ends.

We were discussing when it was right to let a buyer have a baby boa from you. I simply said the rule of thumb most people follow and all big name breeders in CANADA and USA is that the boa should be in perfect health before selling. I told you check 5 breeder websites that you respect and see their terms on selling or shipping. To put it simple most say not ready till they shed 1 - 2 times and have eaten 3 - 5 times - meaning the animal must be well established before selling. To me this is good business sense and great animal ethics. It is easy to breed for the most part and easier to sell a litter wholesale right out the door minutes after birth if you want. But to me that is where the hobby has gone "corporate" - produce and get rid of fast. And no responsibility over the animals and there first few days trying to survive becomes last of the concerns. You said they look healthy but that does not mean they are. Why not put some time in them with feeds and seeing there sheds before a sale, it gives you more confidence to stand behind your animals.

In this post you mention guarantee and its terms, simple like I said most responsibly breeders will give 24 – 48 hours on either a pick up or shipped animal. They list there terms on that coverage which the buyer must agree too once payment made and the animal is released. This shows the buyer that the breeder is responsible and that the animals are as represented. Could you image the order your doing from USA if the seller says thank you and they arrive and things go bad. I mean what we were discussing before states that you are OK with sending a few thousand dollars across the border and do not want any guarantee then. If not then your saying a $100.00 - $10, 000.00 has terms and this means you think a lesser value animals has no guarantee. This is where we started seeing our differences and it went from that to taking responsibility and care for the young boas and get them established before selling. Now if the buyer understands up front because you tell them – that these boas were just born and you claim no responsibility or grant them any guarantee then it is buyer, beware and there should be no hassle then. This type of business does occur world wide and I can not say I agree with that at all.

Like I said before my facility and business runs on proper animal ethics, I am not saying others don’ t. I get rather attached to every animal in my life, be it from a pet rabbit to my Doberman’s, from Analisa’s parrots to my boid collection and I feel an animal is sold, traded or given away in the best care possible I can give it before it leaves us. Even selling babies I had opportunities to sell with in the birth week and did not let any leave till they ate 3 – 5 times and shed at least once. Letting a snake leave after a shed to most breeders is more for the appearance issue to see the animals and its possible characteristics of its future for display or breeding. And my personal opinion on that on our animals is I just prefer to see this to be sure the animal can achieve this natural behavior with out complications. As for feeding 3 – 5 times before I sell a baby snake this just means the snake does what nature does and animals are healthier when feeding. From that point then on I am very comfortable with the selling of that animal and stand behind them with respect to it and the buyer that my part of making the sale is an honest and honorable one.

In case something happens to the animals once they leave your location via airline or its packaging those situations are usually dealt between you and the buyer and airline. If you follow proper packaging methods and comply with the air line rules then these animals have no complications due to this factor. Now if something happens while in the care of the new owner this becomes a judgment call between the 2 parties. Although you can never tell if the buyer can handle this new responsibility 100% it is best to question them as they question you. Proper questions and the fact that you try your best to get new homes for the animals will ensure the best decision you can make on completing a sale. But being this is a shady area of relying on honesty, it is best both buyer and seller respect each other and do what is needed to secure the best home for that animal. This should always be the main focus over the buyer thinking “I got money, I need it fast, I want to breed, I’ll learn as it goes”, and so on. Or the seller thinking “I can make my money back on this chump, good I can get rid of it fast, It’s his problem now”, and so on. I say if both are respectful and honest on the sale of the animal, in the end the animal wins.

If the animal becomes sick or dies in a 48 hour warranty and the buyer is close to your location you both can work out an agreement. If the buyer is at a distance where shipping was used then if both parties agree before the sale of the animal that the refund be money, or another animal then proper paperwork can be filled out to make this possible with a vet visit. Once those documents are complete and the buyer sends that information, and photos of the troubled animal or the animal is return alive or dead. Then the seller can arrange another option with the buyer.

There is a lot to discuss and say and I can easily triple my responding post here without blinking an eye. But I feel the general idea is being said. Respect the animals and the people you buy and sell too. Explain the terms both ways and do the best possible deal in favor of the animals and let the almighty buck be your last concern because all that is said above will get you your all your money and none of the headaches.

This post was not intended to start a flame, and I and Mike are on good terms. We simply see 2 different views and life situations are always 2 points.

Thank you for reading and taking the time to respond.

Cya…

Tony Pharosx

BOAS_N_PYTHONS

[BoAddict]

just for the record i never once said that i didnt care about the babies and bnever once did i say i was just gonna get rid of them as soon as i could .

i have every intention of keeping these guys till they are feeding well on frozen thawed rats be it pinks hoppers or whatever.

tony and i were just doing our little debate that we do alot lol

Mike