Sick BCI any ideas

[clee454]

I have inherited a very sick BCI he is a 7.5' male who will be 22 in October, his name's Napoleon. He has what seems to be a pretty nasty upper respritory infection and has some red spots on his subcaudals. He also hasn't ate for about 2 months.

After a couple vet visits he is on his second bottle of Baytril he gets 1.5cc's twice daily and a warmer cage temp 85 in the cool and 95 in the basking area right now he is hanging out outside the cage with me, getting into everything.

He is very active probably the most active snake I have ever been around, maybe except for the devil of a Amazon tree boa I took care of while the owner was on vacation about 10 years ago.

I talked to the previous owner who said he always had the squeeky forced exhailation sound but has never had feeding problems.

Any ideas/help appreceated TIA

[Linds]

I would definitely increase his overall cage temp to 95 (no cool retreat). The red scales sound like scale rot, I would treat those topically with betadine solution or polysporin (not pain relief kind). The dosing sounds kind of funny however. How are you adminstering the Baytril... orally? injection? I don't know what concentration that is, but I have never seen either administered in 2x daily... or in 1.5cc doses (keep in mind, it could be a different concentration so 1.5cc could be accurate). Is this vet an -experienced, qualified- herp vet or jsut one that treats herps? This sounds like the snake has been suffering long term, a squeaky forced exhalation is not normal, even if the snake is feeding well. I can't stress the important of leaving hime alone for this period though. No handling except for administering the drugs and cleaning the cage. Sick snakes need to be left alone until they are 100% better again. Their systems are already under enough stress, they just need to rest. The added stress of being moved around, and out of their environent, can prolong healing or make matters even worse. The fact that he is sitll active is definitely a good sign.

[clee454]

The vet is a local vet who has always looked after my herps luckily he wasn't needed much mainly for fecals ect... the Baytril is injected is that too much/little for a BCI? I want to find another vet in the Sonoma County, CA area to get another opinion but Herp vets are pretty limited around here.
Thnaks for the response Linds.

[Linds]

Injections administered daily are sufficient... as far as I know, Baytril injections should be adminstered no more than once every 24h in most (if not all) cases. In addition, injections cause muscle soreness, Baytril especially is unpleasant feeling for the snake when injected. Baytril is administered at 5-10 mg/kg of snake. As I stated, I don't know what the concentration is, so I cannot say that 3cc/day is accurate or not for your snake. I do not live in the states, so I cannot recommend any good herp vets, but I would definitely recommend finding a new one. Hopefully someone else will be able to recommend one for you Good luck.

[clee454]

The Baytril is 2.27% and Napoleon is 15lbs about 6.8kg...
Do you know what would be a better dosage I don't want to give him too much. I am going to change his injections to once a day and his cage is now 90-95F I hope he starts to eat soon.

[ETET]

If you know 2.27% is by volume e.g 10ml, 50ml..etc. Then you can calculate how much mg/ml of Batryil you are using. Multiply the concentration mg/ml with the proper dosage 5-10mg/kg to the body weight of your snake then it should be OK. Some people use a higher loading dose of Batryil in the first shot then use a normal dose afterwards. Sometimes, if the snake has too much mucus, bubbling in the mouth... I use Atropine (a kind of bronchodilator) to help to resolve secretions and reduce breathing effort; adminstered thro' sub./nebulizer. If you snake is too chesty, you can ask your vet about this.

ETET

[The_Omen]

Mmm.. guys.. gals...
Usually what brings on an RI is improper temps and humidity...
Why would you want to make it even more improper?

95 degrees is enough to keep the snake sick and even make it worse....
It is a BOA, not a PYTHON.
Boas can't handle that high of a temperature.

The high temp can also lead to feed problems as well, especially in BCIs as their husbandry needs to be quite accurate as they aren't quite as forgiving as the BCC, BCO etc.

Now onto baytril.. the evil medicine...

The dosage comes out dead on for 22.7, that is 3 cc per dose.
It can be split up like that or done all at once, or even orally, with the same dose.
BUT, due to a reptiles slower metabolism, it needs at a minimum of 24 hours between treatments, otherwise you will do some damage to the renal system and eventually kill the animal from organ failure. Every day is too often!

Also, any injectible med, needs to be given in the upper 1/3 of the body, otherwise it will collect in the liver and kidneys with little to no effect to the illness.
To help with any soreness or any ulcerated areas from the baytril, it can be cut with .9% sodium chloride.


Many also have been having great success (me included) in treating RIs by administering the first dose of baytril, in its' full amount with all the follow up treatments being dosed at 1/2 the full dose. (the follow ups being much like boosters

As for the vet.. I can only offer this link, which has one listed in north Cali.
Vet listing

For the snake, large boids can and do sometimes breathe heavily and do make whistling noises for reasons other than RIs.
An oncoming shed that has loosened around the nostrils, retained particles of shed in the nostrils openings, (similar to a humans whistling boogers ), the shear force of air being moved can be noisy as well and if there is any substrate lodged in a nostril or two...
Ususally, unless there are other signs, such as sneezing, coughing, excess fluids in the mouth, bubbles from that fluid, holding or propping its head up to ease breathing, gurgling and whistling in conjunction with any of the above AND listening to its' breathing with a stethascopeand actually hearing anything other than a good clear draw and exhale, then chances are, it is something other than a RI.

The red spots weren't described in great detail, but I have had, have now and have seen may boas with red spots naturally in the pigment of the scales on the belly.
Not saying it isn't scalerot, but typically, scale rot will be a dull rust color and with scale damage by the time it is discovered.
If it is fresh blood, it usually leads to looking under the scales, to ensure there is nothing iritating or penetrating the skin under the scale, such as substrate, mites, ticks etc.
Quite often, in actual scale rot, husbandry is to blame, mainly from not getting the expelled feces and urates out of the cage before the snake is allowed to crawl through it repeatedly.

Scale rot, in extreme cases, can become a systematic problem and lead to death if not treated, which leads me to believe that the red spots are something other than scale rot, especially since you are now on your second bottle of baytril.

[The_Omen]

Sorry.. but I also forgot something...
You said it is 22 years old?
It very well may be entering its slow down phase of old age..
Usually they will eat a lot less even though they will remain quite active for some time.
It stems from not needing nourishment for the growth that takes place while younger.

[clee454]

Okay the temp is going to come back down to 85-95 the RH is usually around 40-45% is this okay?

I am going to stop using the baytril because after eleven days I am not seeing any change and I am tired of treating him like a pin cushion. I know how I felt after receiving every shot in the book when I went into the military.

I can't hear any noise on the draw however the exhale does whistle and at the end of the exhale it does sound mucousy. I did notice some bubbles in his mouth however none of the bubbles come out. Also he does prop his head up on the side of the cage occasionally.

The red spots on his scales are more red than rust and he also has a similar tint on his cheeks and just behind his head on the sides of his neck.

I have taken into account his age but he went from taking a jumbo rat per 10days to now going without food for 2 months. I also don't see him making the trip to his water tub as frequent as he used to.

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

CLEE454:

There is alot of good information here, take it to heart.

Cya

Tony

[Linds]

Originally posted by The_Omen
Mmm.. guys.. gals...
Usually what brings on an RI is improper temps and humidity...
Why would you want to make it even more improper?

95 degrees is enough to keep the snake sick and even make it worse....
It is a BOA, not a PYTHON.
Boas can't handle that high of a temperature.

Fevers fight sickness, doesn't matter what species you are treating, a fever is a fever and it is all to the same effect, it just needds to be adapted to different species. Snakes being coldblooded cannot produce their own fevers, which is why we raise the temps when they are sick. We are giving them a fever to fight off the sickness. What you are saying basically is that only pythons need fevers??? I have had great success using temperature, and temperature alone in treating sick boas. I have never had any negative experiences giving snakes "fevers". One thing hoevevr that I did neglect to mention in my previous post, is that feeding should be avoided while temps are raised.