bull snake not drinking

[akane]

The responsiveness and activity of the newer large bull snake has dropped the past about 3 days. I've been trying to get him to feed unsuccessfully since we picked him up but I was told he did eat one large rat since coming out of brumation shortly before I got him and that he might not eat for awhile so I have not been too worried. He was getting very active in the evenings and of course putting on shows of threats like bull snakes do. Then he started out just laying as flat as possible with his head and not having as much evening pacing about. My husband saw nothing wrong with him resting in usual spots but instinct says something is wrong. After considering it, despite the fact I can't really pinch much loose skin, he does have a change in shape to more triangular in parts of his body and some dry scales in a house with constant low humidity problems and the gauges aren't wonderfully accurate. I have 2 new ones coming. I immediately upped the humidity. It's a little hard to read with the actual water I've been adding (get to that) but it's now around 60% ambient more steadily. I looked online more, debated more, stared at a snake a lot more... Then I took him to the bathtub and soaked him some. Since then he's been seeking moisture on his own. I added the humid hide I started for the python but the bull snake is a bit big for it and had to mostly just take the top off and covered some of the end with a tile. Despite the tight fit I see some of the material tracked around and on him from it so he's been in there several times. For the past day and a half I have been wetting his body and the slate tile he likes to lay on far more than the quick misting I was doing which he will scoot around to the parts staying wet as it dries. He is more alert and reacted with bullsnake bluffing once so he is improved but I don't think he's seeking water to drink still. He did leave piles of white urates initially but I don't think anything new for too long but it's hard to compare to my bioactive tanks where such things just disappear so I don't usually look for them.

I have only a small bowl in there because I generally provide a damp area of substrate instead of a soaking size container for my snakes that aren't extra attracted to water like the sumatran python. I haven't gotten to sealing and setting up his bin with substrate so he was on paper which he mostly destroyed and is majority straight on the enamel coated wood which is essentially like plastic in how it reacts. I put in a much bigger bowl but with the depth and his not raising up much I slid it even with the slate tile hide he lays on since I've seen several other snakes enjoy drinking from on top of the rocks down into a bowl. I'm not sure it's worked. He may have tried to get in it some instead and displaced water that way. Kind of hard to say but some of the material from the humid hide was in the water container. I'm going to look for something wider and shallower tomorrow but I think he's stable tonight with a humidifier misting down on his cage, the humid hide, and the periodic wetting of him and his surfaces I've been doing today. Like I said he now seeks out getting damper on his own. I'm not sure why he is not drinking straight water though. Any suggestions? He has a large 5' long sealed wood bin with wire top that is plain by my standards since I usually setup bioactive but a 24x24" slab of slate on I think 8" high bricks under a heat lamp that is mostly where he stays on or under it. I just piled some rocks on the far side to give an illusion of some cover that he was finding acceptable for trips during active periods and when seeking to return to his enclosure and I put the water dish in the middle but it's been slid all over. The humid hide is now on that rock side. I debate moving it more toward the heat lamp but I'd have to attach the heat somewhere else to have it shine very far off the slate hide. My husband hung it a bit far over. I thought this might be a problem but he was quite happy to go up there or under there as needed and then traveled and sometimes would be hanging out on the other end a bit mostly in the evening.

Overall I cannot find a problem or irritation for him. He looks healthy, pest free, good scales until I found some dry ones looking him over this last time, good muscle, like I said his shape has sort of sharpened and I don't think it's food because it hasn't been that long with him having eaten at least once shortly before I picked him up and being in good solid condition, the room was dry for awhile and if you look at the pics I have from earlier you can tell he wandered through some dust on the floor and dry areas while we finished the temporary top to his enclosure but like I said I've taken steps to increase humidity. I started the humidifier even if it is a bit small it can at least do the area around it. I would like to get substrate in there but I need to finish sealing it so I thought paper would be fine for now. I start most on paper or paper towels until settled, eating, pooping, and I get bioactive materials ready to convert their enclosure. He keeps scraping the paper away until a lot of it is the bare plastic like enamel right now that was heavily disinfected with bleach and dawn dish soap and then rinsed clean before going to his use. Not a heavy traffic room although I've been checking him frequently lately but he hasn't reduced his behavior around us until the past few days and then there's my last cage of guinea pigs in there. A cat might wander in which he seems to have accepted as not important but willing to strike at them given the chance. They see to have decided to stay off his enclosure despite the fact they can be pests about getting under heat lamps or next to them and knocking them off. Top is very open but solid sides, good, dark hiding place he fits in if he wants... I mounted a plain single t8 tube full spectrum fluorescent on a timer for 10 hrs on because the room has one dim light that is mostly useless. The room gets some morning sun but not direct beams and the rest of the day is fairly dim like very heavily cloudy day equivalent. So he has a not overly bright day/night cycle. Temp seems good with low 80s on the slate, humidity was a little low but going up and now a bit toward the high end but like I explained it's complicated to measure exactly with misting and standing water. He was getting more comfortable around me. Just a little questionable around my husband who doesn't handle big snakes. I see nothing except I really don't think he's drinking directly, he hasn't taken food which I read not to keep trying to feed if dehydrated, and now he's lethargic but perked back up a little with external water.

Ok I went on and on but I get obsessed when I have a serious problem I'm trying to solve and want to make sure I covered everything and covered it again. Summary: sudden increasing lethargy that has improved slightly with more external moisture, no known source of stress, good day/night light, initially passed urates, fed before I got him, no plain poop so far, was in good body condition, temps seem good, humidity got low but raised, and no other sign of health problems except that period of low humidity. I think his actions point to not drinking and I cannot tell you entirely why but I tend to go with instinct because a lifetime of animals and running a farm it's often right (except with birds. My subconscious animal checking system and conclusions does not work on birds). I scrubbed his current dish and a bigger one better with dish soap, lots of rinsing, and added the bigger one directly by the slate slab he hangs out on. Use of humid hide, currently no other substrate except some paper in some areas he hasn't shoved it off.

[Albert Clark]

Wow! I get the impression you are overthinking any problem. Firstly do you know how long he was brumated for? A animal (male) coming out of brumation is only interested in one thing..... MATING.....They most certainly are not thinking about food. Are you planning on breeding him? If not, then the post brumation behavior will have to play out. He probably will continue to refuse food and as far as water is concerned he knows what he needs. If you are supplying a dish of water and humid hide don't worry about whether you see him drinking or not just keep the water clean and fresh. Dehydration, to some extent, happens during brumation and the snake knows how to replace what his body needs in due time. They have internal clocks that are wired and as long as they are healthy tells them what they need based on temperature, humidity, and their environment. Good luck and don't disturb him to much.

[Jim Smith]

I'm with Albert on this one. I only see my snakes drink on occasion when I happen to look over there at them, yet, they are in great shape. As far as not eating, my male Honduran will usually eat one meal after brumation, then he goes on a hunger strike, even after having several dates. I always have to buy live prey items, stun them and toss them in still kicking a bit before his instinct takes over and he starts eating. I have to do this for two or three feedings and then sneak in a F/T while he's still in the feeding mode. I don't like feeding live at all as I always feel badly for the prey items, but if that's what it takes, then that's what I do. I would suggest however, that you consider a larger water bowl as many snakes like a nice long soak once in a while. Just a thought...

[Andy_G]

If he's only had one meal since coming out of brumation, that'd be my answer. The other gentlemen touched on some points as well. If he has a water dish and his humidity is aat 30 or above, hydration isnt the issue.

[EL Ziggy]

I'm with the other members on this one as well. I don't see any real problems. He'll most likely start eating soon and bull snakes don't need very high humidity so soaking, misting, and even humid hides are unnecessary. In the 4 years I've had my bulls I've only seen them drink a few times but my male will soak on occasion. As long as your snake has a proper temperature gradient and access to fresh food and water he should be fine.

[akane]

Sorry, typing on and on without getting across full logic instead of looking like all emotion is partially my brain that time of night (day to some). ADHD-ADHD meds, can't take as much around sleep. I try to keep my brain from attempting to organize posts then. I still think right. I just don't say it as well, keep trying, and fall into my 100wpm typing trap that can throw out pages of stuff without pause or rereading instead of trying again because it's faster. I attempt to just go get lost on one post on FB until I can sleep and then it isn't confusing the next day to anyone but the rest of the ADHD group. But I'm watching a snake act increasingly odd for a few days, react to moisture, look up past discussions online, and re-evaluating possible seriousness or not while my brain wants to go ask someone without any "linear thought" as I call it. Rarely it happens.

My other bull was at least starting to get low on fluids in a different room on bioactive substrate and he's never had a problem with his dish. I've been filling it but I moved it because while digging his cave (which he stopped using lately) he kept shoving dirt in it and I never know how much is evaporation given what snakes drink. He started drinking off a log he's been laying next to when I was pouring in water for the cleanup crew that lives under it so I gave him a fresh dish close to his old location and he drank a lot. I haven't done "rain day" in 2 weeks because of being ill but everything was still misted daily and dishes full with minimal error so while not as damp as it should be for bioactive it should be fine for the snakes and geckos except that one room I am working on getting the big enclosures into that gets questionably dry. The younger bull hasn't been eating but he did shed so I wasn't without reason again even if he only recently stopped eating during shedding and still usually only a meal or 2 instead of several gerbils.

The others have been drinking as far as I know except the king did suddenly drink a lot before and again after eating when given a hopper like he was making up for not doing so when he hasn't run out of water at any time. I haven't seen snakes drink as much as those 2 did per body size even when the dish did run out before refilling. Everything else is eating except Barairo (older rosy) is on a partial rodent quality strike of a batch of free frozen mice and the python is stuck on live with live rat pups as common as unicorns around here but he snacked on a gerbil hopper so he would eat.

The large bull is no longer flattening as much as possible into weird shapes. He started shaking his tail in the start of bull snake bluff threat again, then later wandered the mesh a little looking at the humidifier added on top of his cage before going back to how he was laying, and now is in more normal positions including his head lifted on his body at times and raising it up instead of only moving and laying squashed flat. I didn't want to keep him directly wet too long so I didn't continue putting water straight on him but he was seeking out the wet areas very specifically when I did. I don't think he's gone back to the humid hide anymore but the humidifier is still running for now and if the moisture direction drifts from air currents, the piece that helps maintain direction got knocked somewhere and I haven't recovered it, he'll shift his body off the slate ledge to put it underneath where the most moisture is not staying in the air.

I'm planning to turn it down steadily but the humidifier does die periodically at low settings because my husband ignored directions and put hardwater in it until it got jammed. Leaving it on with vinegar for days I got it to run on higher settings consistently but not completely on lower settings yet. My husband adds concern when I'm sick or injured too badly because if I just give directions something dies every time. I try to at least supervise if I have to crawl up the stairs and sit in the center of the rooms but somehow he thawed a rat (fuzzy? I'm not sure what container he got it out of) instead of a gerbil for the small bull snake and the corn snake ran out of water for a day but neither are major. The soil and materials for where the cuc (bugs) of the bioactive tanks live got too dry but shouldn't for the reptiles. I don't think anything but a feeder mouse died (not of being fed out but a series of decisions that he might need some adhd meds for....). I thought I could leave short term kept feeder rodents completely to him.