Ethics of snake food...

[mistersprinkles]

It is not my intent to start a bitter discussion, I just wanted to share my views on feeding mammals to reptiles, and why I stopped keeping snakes.

I kept snakes for over ten years, from when I was 5 until I was 16. I had numerous different species in my collection. One day I was feeding a FT rat to my ball python, and I looked at the rat, and I had a sudden onset of extreme empathy for the animal.

I thought to myself, this rat can feel emotions. It can become emotionally attached to other rats or to a human. It feels fear, happiness. My snake does not. Am I doing the right thing? Should I be contributing to the untimely death of a higher animal to feed a lower animal? I found that I could no longer condone this practice. I decided to give up snake keeping once and for all.

In my early twenties, I thought I'd give it another shot with a coastal carpet python, but I found that I still felt the same way, so I gave the snake to a fellow hobbyist and threw in the towel.

Does anybody else have ethical issues with reptile keeping?

[Jim Smith]

Animals are raised for food all over the planet. Have you ever been to a chicken ranch or a pig farm? I have no problems feeding F/T rodents to my snakes. I must admit though that I really don't like the idea of feeding live lizards or other live snakes as food, so I don't keep the species of snakes that only prefer those food items. I suggest that you reconsider keeping your new carpet python if it bothers you to feed rodents. Perhaps one of the egg eating snakes or water snakes where you can feed pieces of fish. Just a couple of possibilities...

[RAD House]

Nope how could I as I myself am a predator? I think it is good that people realize that something must parish for other things to live. It makes you respect the thing that perished more, not just a steak but a living being. The caste system of higher and lower animal groups is ridiculous and not supported by science. The only thing that matters in nature is what lives and what dies. In my mind some of the more ancient groups may even be considered as higher as they have survived for so long through so much. Mammals not so much, and humans especially not as we continually destroy our own home.

[Minkness]

Well....first of all...why are you on a snake forum if you feel unethical? (Not being cheeky, genuinely curious)

Secondly, I don't really have any ethical qualms of feeding my animals. I'm certainly not a vegetarian, so why expect my animals to be (or give up the animals I love). Dogs and cats eat meat products that means other animals are slaughtered and processed just for their consumption. I'm sure if we could get 'snake kibble' easily taken by our snakes, that would happen alot more. The food chain has never bothered me in the least. Now...I do respect pet rodents and their owners, and have personally owned pet rats and mice that would break my heart should I have fed them to a snake. (I didn't own snakes at the time but you get the idea). I personally cannot kill an animal on purpose however. So, either f/t or live...but I cannot just grab a rat/mouse, bash it in the head, break it's neck, gas it, or any other method of euthinizing it. I of course feed f/t for safety purposes, but also because in the end, many mass pricing feeder companies humanely gas the feeder animals so I know that they don't exactly suffer. It's the circle of life.

on another note....I don't really see the food chain as one animal being 'higher' than the other. Just because an animal can bond or feel basic emotions or be trained to do tricks doesn't make them better, just different. Think about a lion and a gazelle. Both are mammals, both can show trust, affection, and be trained....but the lion will eat the gazelle and it will never be the other way around. Does that make the lion better? Nope, just higher on the food chain. Same with reptiles and rodents. Regardless of emotions and such, the rodent is usually eaten by tue reptile, which technically makes the reptile higher on the food chain (except those rare, stupid times someone leaves live prey in with a domesticated snake and the next thing you know the mouse is enjoying some live meat of the other kind)

This is all just my opinion of course.

[Derek1]

Originally Posted by mistersprinkles

It is not my intent to start a bitter discussion, I just wanted to share my views on feeding mammals to reptiles, and why I stopped keeping snakes.

I kept snakes for over ten years, from when I was 5 until I was 16. I had numerous different species in my collection. One day I was feeding a FT rat to my ball python, and I looked at the rat, and I had a sudden onset of extreme empathy for the animal.

I thought to myself, this rat can feel emotions. It can become emotionally attached to other rats or to a human. It feels fear, happiness. My snake does not. Am I doing the right thing? Should I be contributing to the untimely death of a higher animal to feed a lower animal? I found that I could no longer condone this practice. I decided to give up snake keeping once and for all.

In my early twenties, I thought I'd give it another shot with a coastal carpet python, but I found that I still felt the same way, so I gave the snake to a fellow hobbyist and threw in the towel.

Does anybody else have ethical issues with reptile keeping?

As my 6yr old would say. You're cray cray

How is a mouse/rat a higher animal than a snake? Both are equal on the lower food chain scale.

[SSSSnakes]

This world survives by a food chain. I'm high on the food chain, my snakes are lower on the chain and rodents are even lower. I'm fine with that. Unless you are a a true vegan and use no dead animal products, don't talk ethics.

[lady_bug87]

I think its an interesting topic. When I feed my animals I don't see rats as well, rats. they're food.

My ethical problem is when people feed live for fun. I saw a horrible video once where someone gave a live mouse to a pacman frog and the frog tore it apart while it screamed

[eminart]

Dying in a CO2 chamber is a better way to die than almost any death a rat would experience in nature. Everything eats.

In modern day, people have the opportunity to pretend we are above nature. Technology and industry allow us to be so distant from our food and the food of other animals, that we have an unrealistic disconnect.

[pet_snake_78]

I do cringe when I see the stereotypical video feed of someone feeding live to the tune of a Screamo band. It's pretty well accepted that snakes should be on F/t when possible for the benefit of all involved. However, when people become so far from the sources of our food, as most are today, we begin to become divorced from the reality of the food chain. Just by existing every human on earth is killing thousands of animals. The house you live in has killed dozens of animals when being built and prevented hundreds of others from having a place to be born and live. The roads you drive on kill and injure tens of thousands of animals daily.. right now there are deer with broken legs waiting to die, turtles about to be smashed by oncoming traffic, etc. Right now there are chickens being killed so you can eat. Cows will be slaughtered today and the meat hung on a hook. SO in retrospect, do I think feeding a thawed mouse to a snake is a moral issue... no way.

Even if you don't eat meat, you will kill thousands of animals. Pesticides, land clear, tractors chopping animals to pieces, water being taken from wildlife habitat and sprayed onto monocultured fields designed specifically to prevent any type of ecosystem from living in there so the plants can maximize their enegy, etc. There is no way any human can exist without resulting in the death of thousands if not millions of other animals in his or her lifetime.

[eminart]

Originally Posted by pet_snake_78

I do cringe when I see the stereotypical video feed of someone feeding live to the tune of a Screamo band. It's pretty well accepted that snakes should be on F/t when possible for the benefit of all involved. However, when people become so far from the sources of our food, as most are today, we begin to become divorced from the reality of the food chain. Just by existing every human on earth is killing thousands of animals. The house you live in has killed dozens of animals when being built and prevented hundreds of others from having a place to be born and live. The roads you drive on kill and injure tens of thousands of animals daily.. right now there are deer with broken legs waiting to die, turtles about to be smashed by oncoming traffic, etc. Right now there are chickens being killed so you can eat. Cows will be slaughtered today and the meat hung on a hook. SO in retrospect, do I think feeding a thawed mouse to a snake is a moral issue... no way.

Even if you don't eat meat, you will kill thousands of animals. Pesticides, land clear, tractors chopping animals to pieces, water being taken from wildlife habitat and sprayed onto monocultured fields designed specifically to prevent any type of ecosystem from living in there so the plants can maximize their enegy, etc. There is no way any human can exist without resulting in the death of thousands if not millions of other animals in his or her lifetime.

Yay! Someone who truly gets it! I posted a very similar thing on facebook last week. It didn't go over well with many of the intended audience.

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by pet_snake_78

I do cringe when I see the stereotypical video feed of someone feeding live to the tune of a Screamo band. It's pretty well accepted that snakes should be on F/t when possible for the benefit of all involved. However, when people become so far from the sources of our food, as most are today, we begin to become divorced from the reality of the food chain. Just by existing every human on earth is killing thousands of animals. The house you live in has killed dozens of animals when being built and prevented hundreds of others from having a place to be born and live. The roads you drive on kill and injure tens of thousands of animals daily.. right now there are deer with broken legs waiting to die, turtles about to be smashed by oncoming traffic, etc. Right now there are chickens being killed so you can eat. Cows will be slaughtered today and the meat hung on a hook. SO in retrospect, do I think feeding a thawed mouse to a snake is a moral issue... no way.

Even if you don't eat meat, you will kill thousands of animals. Pesticides, land clear, tractors chopping animals to pieces, water being taken from wildlife habitat and sprayed onto monocultured fields designed specifically to prevent any type of ecosystem from living in there so the plants can maximize their enegy, etc. There is no way any human can exist without resulting in the death of thousands if not millions of other animals in his or her lifetime.

Not even close to true. There was a 30-40 page thread on BP.net where people ferociously argued this same topic.

[millertime89]

Originally Posted by jjhill001

Not even close to true. There was a 30-40 page thread on BP.net where people ferociously argued this same topic.

Sorry, but no. F/t is better as long as the animal will take it. There is no benefit to live feeding despite what is said on that forum. If you can find me scientific evidence that there is some advantage to feeding live vs f/t I'll listen.

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by millertime89

Sorry, but no. F/t is better as long as the animal will take it. There is no benefit to live feeding despite what is said on that forum. If you can find me scientific evidence that there is some advantage to feeding live vs f/t I'll listen.

Gonna post excerpts and also the link to the article.

Pros of Live
... The single biggest advantage live or fresh-killed rodents have over their frozen counterparts is simply that they are the freshest food source available. No proteins, vitamins or nutrients have been lost through time spent in the freezer. There seems to be a misconception on the part of frozen enthusiasts that there is no breakdown of these components in frozen, no doubt started by those who market frozen. Don't believe me? Go to your doctor and tell him you intend to raise your new baby on nothing but frozen foods from birth to adulthood and see what he says. Be prepared for a visit shortly after by child services. Also consider that human food gets lots of preservatives and additives designed to offset these losses, while frozen rodents get nothing. If there's no losses, why would profit hungry corporations go to the extra time and expense of adding these? The answer seems self-evident.

Another strong advantage of utilizing live pinkies and fuzzies is that they can be simply dropped in the cage and left overnight with stubborn feeders or new hatchlings. Small frozen rodents will quickly begin to decay and must be removed quickly from the cage if not eaten immediately. Many snakes resent the intrusion into the cage, and may not calm down enough to feed before the item must be removed. Other new babies may prefer to feed at night. This can make use of frozen foods impractical in large collections. ...


Pros of Frozen


... There's really only one advantage to using frozen feeder rodents and that's convenience. Being able store a small quantity of frozen mice behind the frozen lasagna will eliminate a few trips to the store. You might even get a slightly better price by purchasing in quantity...


Cons of Frozen


... Earlier in this article, we touched on loss of vitamins, minerals and nutrients during the freezing process. But we did not mention that the length of time spent in the freezer can increase these losses, not to mention cause freezer burn. It is recommended that you obtain the freshest frozen rodents possible. Making the assumption that your store has provided fresh ones can be a mistake, they may have been in the back of their freezer for months (or worse). Many commercial sources for frozen rodents will date each package with the date frozen, a real help in determining freshness.


Now let's talk about problems with the method of feeding frozen. First and foremost, the frozen rodent MUST be thawed COMPLETELY before use. Each year we get several inquiries from keepers who have failed to do this and are having serious medical problems with their pets as a result. We always hold the rodent in the hand, feeling the thickest parts (especially the head) for any cool temperatures which might indicate that it is not completely thawed before feeding.


But remember, over-thawing can be a whole lot worse! Read the label on a package of chicken. See where it discusses the dangers of exposing it to room temperatures? Well, this is exactly what you MUST do before feeding a frozen rodent! And this rodent is complete, with all gut content and bacteria, not to mention urine and feces, while the chicken has been stripped of all such nasties. So here we are, deliberately exposing a tainted piece of meat to dangerous temperatures before happily handing it to our pet. Sound bad? Well it is.


Salmonella and other nasty organisms can develop amazingly fast, and the real danger here is hidden. You happily feed without knowing and suddenly your snake has slimy green feces and is losing weight faster than an anorexic fashion model. Oh, and remember when you had to touch it to see if it was thawed? Now YOU'VE been exposed! Like it says on that chicken package, always wash hands and surfaces thoroughly with disinfectant (including feeding tongs or similar) after use.


Attempt to minimize the exposure to room temperatures. Thaw as quickly as possible, and offer immediately to your snake. Remove uneaten rodents quickly from the cage, in thirty minutes or less. many keepers will use the microwave oven to quickly thaw rodents. We don't recommend this for several reasons: It's easy to overheat the rodent and burn your snake. It's easy to accidentally cook portions of the meat (which reptiles cannot digest properly). It exposes your microwave oven to the same potential diseases as discussed above. many keepers will place the rodent inside a Ziploc bag and thaw in warm water. This greatly increases the rate of thawing and is the preferred method...


Conclusion


...the best and safest food source for captive snakes is fresh-killed rodents from clean disease-free stock...

Source: VMS Herp

The Learning Center - Live (F/K) vs Frozen (F/T)

[millertime89]

Originally Posted by jossh27

i haven't read this entire thread, but whats the difference between feeding our pets live, or f/t over us (people) eating any kind of meat? cows and chickens among tons of different animals are strictly bread to feed us. - rats and mice are no different in my eyes.... maybe I'm a jerk, but i couldn't care less about the life of a mouse or rat or even a cow for that matter so long as it dies without suffering

I don't really care about the prey, it's my animal I care about. Live prey can fight back.

Originally Posted by kuester

And snakes can bond too! They may not have as deep as a connection but they can bond.

No they can't.

Originally Posted by kuester

Also my corn is pretty attached to my doberman, not my other dog. Both my dogs have the same demeanor and personality but my corn will sleep with my doberman and not my other dog.

No he's not. Don't do it. This is just dumb. This is how pets get killed.

Originally Posted by jjhill001

Pros of Live
... The single biggest advantage live or fresh-killed rodents have over their frozen counterparts is simply that they are the freshest food source available. No proteins, vitamins or nutrients have been lost through time spent in the freezer. There seems to be a misconception on the part of frozen enthusiasts that there is no breakdown of these components in frozen, no doubt started by those who market frozen. Don't believe me? Go to your doctor and tell him you intend to raise your new baby on nothing but frozen foods from birth to adulthood and see what he says. Be prepared for a visit shortly after by child services. Also consider that human food gets lots of preservatives and additives designed to offset these losses, while frozen rodents get nothing. If there's no losses, why would profit hungry corporations go to the extra time and expense of adding these? The answer seems self-evident.

There's a difference between frozen food and processed and preserved food. A doctor will ask what kind of frozen food. Frozen whole meats, fruits, and veggies are fine and keep remarkably well. Frozen TV dinners? Not so much...

Originally Posted by jjhill001

Another strong advantage of utilizing live pinkies and fuzzies is that they can be simply dropped in the cage and left overnight with stubborn feeders or new hatchlings. Small frozen rodents will quickly begin to decay and must be removed quickly from the cage if not eaten immediately. Many snakes resent the intrusion into the cage, and may not calm down enough to feed before the item must be removed. Other new babies may prefer to feed at night. This can make use of frozen foods impractical in large collections. ...

You can do this with f/t pinkies and fuzzies. They don't decay that quickly. Shall I get one and perform an experiment? I just might actually...

In all collections you should make adjustments to your schedule to accommodate the needs of your animals...

Originally Posted by jjhill001

Pros of Frozen


... There's really only one advantage to using frozen feeder rodents and that's convenience. Being able store a small quantity of frozen mice behind the frozen lasagna will eliminate a few trips to the store. You might even get a slightly better price by purchasing in quantity...

Convenience, cost, lack of danger to the predator. It's nice not having to buy snake food every week. Live prey is typically very expensive compared to frozen bought in bulk. Finally, live prey can fight back. It's happened to many people. It happened to my cousin with his pet corn snake, he put a small mouse in and came back 30 minutes later to a dead corn snake and a bloody mouse. As you mentioned above, some snakes don't like to be disturbed while eating, if the prey item is quick enough it can kill the snake before the snake can settle down from the intrusion to the point where it's comfortable enough to eat.

Originally Posted by jjhill001

Cons of Frozen


... Earlier in this article, we touched on loss of vitamins, minerals and nutrients during the freezing process. But we did not mention that the length of time spent in the freezer can increase these losses, not to mention cause freezer burn. It is recommended that you obtain the freshest frozen rodents possible. Making the assumption that your store has provided fresh ones can be a mistake, they may have been in the back of their freezer for months (or worse). Many commercial sources for frozen rodents will date each package with the date frozen, a real help in determining freshness.

Deterioration and loss of nutrients doesn't occur that rapidly.

Originally Posted by jjhill001

Now let's talk about problems with the method of feeding frozen. First and foremost, the frozen rodent MUST be thawed COMPLETELY before use. Each year we get several inquiries from keepers who have failed to do this and are having serious medical problems with their pets as a result. We always hold the rodent in the hand, feeling the thickest parts (especially the head) for any cool temperatures which might indicate that it is not completely thawed before feeding.

This is accurate, however this comes down to people not being patient. Plan ahead and this isn't a problem.

Originally Posted by jjhill001

But remember, over-thawing can be a whole lot worse! Read the label on a package of chicken. See where it discusses the dangers of exposing it to room temperatures? Well, this is exactly what you MUST do before feeding a frozen rodent! And this rodent is complete, with all gut content and bacteria, not to mention urine and feces, while the chicken has been stripped of all such nasties. So here we are, deliberately exposing a tainted piece of meat to dangerous temperatures before happily handing it to our pet. Sound bad? Well it is.

Snakes digestive systems are different from ours. Not only are they opportunistic but there are documented cases of them being scavengers and eating dead things that they find. If the bacteria in the prey item were a danger to the snake, we would have reports of the snake getting sick as a result.

Originally Posted by jjhill001

Salmonella and other nasty organisms can develop amazingly fast, and the real danger here is hidden. You happily feed without knowing and suddenly your snake has slimy green feces and is losing weight faster than an anorexic fashion model. Oh, and remember when you had to touch it to see if it was thawed? Now YOU'VE been exposed! Like it says on that chicken package, always wash hands and surfaces thoroughly with disinfectant (including feeding tongs or similar) after use.

Again, differences in physiology. You should ALWAYS wash your hands anyways...

Originally Posted by jjhill001

Attempt to minimize the exposure to room temperatures. Thaw as quickly as possible, and offer immediately to your snake. Remove uneaten rodents quickly from the cage, in thirty minutes or less. many keepers will use the microwave oven to quickly thaw rodents. We don't recommend this for several reasons: It's easy to overheat the rodent and burn your snake. It's easy to accidentally cook portions of the meat (which reptiles cannot digest properly). It exposes your microwave oven to the same potential diseases as discussed above. many keepers will place the rodent inside a Ziploc bag and thaw in warm water. This greatly increases the rate of thawing and is the preferred method...

As stated, snakes eat rotten prey and it doesn't negatively affect them in any way. 30 minutes? That's laughable. Some of my snakes need to be left alone for quite a bit longer than that just to start eating. Decay doesn't begin that quickly.

Microwave? That's a bad idea. You know what happens when something sealed is microwaved? Pop. I don't want to clean up rat guts in my microwave.

Originally Posted by jjhill001

Conclusion


...the best and safest food source for captive snakes is fresh-killed rodents from clean disease-free stock...

No.

[sSAIRSCHUTTSs]

Originally Posted by pet_snake_78

I do cringe when I see the stereotypical video feed of someone feeding live to the tune of a Screamo band. It's pretty well accepted that snakes should be on F/t when possible for the benefit of all involved. However, when people become so far from the sources of our food, as most are today, we begin to become divorced from the reality of the food chain. Just by existing every human on earth is killing thousands of animals. The house you live in has killed dozens of animals when being built and prevented hundreds of others from having a place to be born and live. The roads you drive on kill and injure tens of thousands of animals daily.. right now there are deer with broken legs waiting to die, turtles about to be smashed by oncoming traffic, etc. Right now there are chickens being killed so you can eat. Cows will be slaughtered today and the meat hung on a hook. SO in retrospect, do I think feeding a thawed mouse to a snake is a moral issue... no way.

Even if you don't eat meat, you will kill thousands of animals. Pesticides, land clear, tractors chopping animals to pieces, water being taken from wildlife habitat and sprayed onto monocultured fields designed specifically to prevent any type of ecosystem from living in there so the plants can maximize their enegy, etc. There is no way any human can exist without resulting in the death of thousands if not millions of other animals in his or her lifetime.

.... Could not have said it any better! 100% accurate and to the point.
People will continue to do these things, even if a percentage of the population (Vegans, vegetarians, ect) stop supporting their methods.
Fact is, everyone rely's on farmed meat.. as do our snakes.
The higher in the food web, the more options for dinner and our snakes have limited option compared to us humans.
Its just life, eat and survive.