Drainage layer for UNPLANTED viv?

[LadyWraith]

Sorry to keep expounding on the bioactive topic, but I can't for the life of me find this one particular bit of info. Everything I've been reading about the subject is in relation to planted vivs where a drainage layer is necessary. However, I'm not using plants in my terrestrial snake enclosures. Literally just dirt, leaf litter, bugs, and maybe some wood pieces. I'll refresh the leaf litter as it breaks down. I've read that springtails (which I plan on ordering and adding to the mix) require the drainage layer for breeding purposes. Is this correct? And if the drainage layer is needed, will belly heat (I use Flexwatt) still work through the layers (90°-ish hot spot)? I may just need to experiment with the belly heat thing if you fine people aren't sure.

[lady_bug87]

It wouldn't hurt to have one, if anything it will cut down on the chance of mould

[jarich]

Yes, every bioactive enclosure needs a drainage layer really, or at least some way for the water to drain out of the bottom (a drainage hole will do also). You dont want the bottom layers to have water sitting in them as it leads to a lot of anaerobic activity, which is something you want to reduce as much as possible.

[formica]

Originally Posted by jarich

Yes, every bioactive enclosure needs a drainage layer really, or at least some way for the water to drain out of the bottom (a drainage hole will do also). You dont want the bottom layers to have water sitting in them as it leads to a lot of anaerobic activity, which is something you want to reduce as much as possible.

true, although without plants to absorb nitrates from aerobic bacteria, the build up can cause problems for cleaner crews, or if there is enough light a massive build up of algae, without drainage, anaerobic bacteria will build up and be able to absorb nitrates...but also results in a pretty smiley and smelly substrate.

no win either way without plants, unless we're talking about a very large amount of substrate, but at least with a drainage layer it should last longer

[LadyWraith]

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

It wouldn't hurt to have one, if anything it will cut down on the chance of mould

Originally Posted by jarich

Yes, every bioactive enclosure needs a drainage layer really, or at least some way for the water to drain out of the bottom (a drainage hole will do also). You dont want the bottom layers to have water sitting in them as it leads to a lot of anaerobic activity, which is something you want to reduce as much as possible.

This was my thought as well. I'll just need to experiment with the heat to make sure it will still reach the top of the substrate through all layers.

Originally Posted by formica

true, although without plants to absorb nitrates from aerobic bacteria, the build up can cause problems for cleaner crews, or if there is enough light a massive build up of algae, without drainage, anaerobic bacteria will build up and be able to absorb nitrates...but also results in a pretty smiley and smelly substrate.

no win either way without plants, unless we're talking about a very large amount of substrate, but at least with a drainage layer it should last longer

So basically, it won't work well without plants? I'd wondered about this but plants will likely just get crushed by the snakes.

[formica]

Originally Posted by LadyWraith

This was my thought as well. I'll just need to experiment with the heat to make sure it will still reach the top of the substrate through all layers.



So basically, it won't work well without plants? I'd wondered about this but plants will likely just get crushed by the snakes.

depends on how much substrate we are talking about, RHP is the ideal solution for allot of substrate, or ceramic if you dont need lots of humidity, or you can separate off an area above the heat mat and reduce the level of substrate over that area, and additional heat mat on the side of the enclosure can help aswell

it is a challenge to get heat mats to provide good ambient temps and basking temps with a deep bioactive substrate, so yeah, experiment


It will work without plants, just requires a little more attention to make sure it stays balanced, changing some of the soil out for eg (like changing the water out of an aquarium without a filter)


lots of plants will put up with plenty of abuse, so yeah, as Jarich asked, what species of snake?

[jarich]

Ive got plants in with all my snakes, and have had no problems. What species are you talking about?

[LadyWraith]

Sumatran short tail. She's still a juvenile and weighing in at about 4 lbs but will obviously get quite a bit larger. TBH, I suck at keeping indoor plants alive so I was kinda wanting to wait to attempt a planted viv until after I finish my degree and have spare time to devote to the cause. I'm just looking to do a simple bio substrate until then, if possible. And maybe it's not really feasible til.I'm ready to plant. Just exploring the options for now.

[kelzerman]

Originally Posted by LadyWraith

Sumatran short tail. She's still a juvenile and weighing in at about 4 lbs but will obviously get quite a bit larger. TBH, I suck at keeping indoor plants alive so I was kinda wanting to wait to attempt a planted viv until after I finish my degree and have spare time to devote to the cause. I'm just looking to do a simple bio substrate until then, if possible. And maybe it's not really feasible til.I'm ready to plant. Just exploring the options for now.

I was thinking of doing this for my blood. Then I thought she would probably just smash any plants in the viv. Maybe not idk. Does anyone have planted vivs with short tails?

[jarich]

Not bloods no, but I do have a very large female BP in with plants that do just fine. I know bloods are heavier bodied, but its not about the snake, its about the placement and the enclosure. Set up the enclosure and use the furniture and correct plants and your plants will be just fine.

[kelzerman]

Originally Posted by jarich

Not bloods no, but I do have a very large female BP in with plants that do just fine. I know bloods are heavier bodied, but its not about the snake, its about the placement and the enclosure. Set up the enclosure and use the furniture and correct plants and your plants will be just fine.

I guess I can't say anything until I try it. Eventually I'm going to switch her over to bio. I have a 6' tank coming for her that I'm going to start her bio setup in before. I've noticed a lot of people say to let it go for awhile before you put the snake in with it. Would you agree?

Now what about a 14' retic? Maybe plant some trees? Lol. Jk.

[jarich]

The thing is that with larger snakes, you need to make sure you have more soil to compensate. Its good to sort of think of it like you would water in a fish tank. Too much fish to water ratio and you kill off the biological cycle. Same with soil, if you have too big a snake and not enough soil, youre going to kill off your biological cycle. If you have a big blood (and Im sure you know how much waste they produce at once when they do go ) then you have to make sure you have enough of the biological filter (soil) to not get overrun. So if its in a 6' tank, the big question would be how high is the enclosure? I dont think Id want the soil any less than 10-12" deep with that size snake. Given that you want to have some plants in there too (and the corresponding furniture and lighting that will need to be there to keep it alive) youre looking at an enclosure of at least around 30" high. Not sure what your other dimensions are on your tank, but thats not outside the realm of possibility. If its not that deep, there are also fairly easy ways of adapting the top to make it higher.

Now for a 14' retic, its again possible, but your filter needs to be that much bigger

[kelzerman]

Originally Posted by jarich

The thing is that with larger snakes, you need to make sure you have more soil to compensate. Its good to sort of think of it like you would water in a fish tank. Too much fish to water ratio and you kill off the biological cycle. Same with soil, if you have too big a snake and not enough soil, youre going to kill off your biological cycle. If you have a big blood (and Im sure you know how much waste they produce at once when they do go ) then you have to make sure you have enough of the biological filter (soil) to not get overrun. So if its in a 6' tank, the big question would be how high is the enclosure? I dont think Id want the soil any less than 10-12" deep with that size snake. Given that you want to have some plants in there too (and the corresponding furniture and lighting that will need to be there to keep it alive) youre looking at an enclosure of at least around 30" high. Not sure what your other dimensions are on your tank, but thats not outside the realm of possibility. If its not that deep, there are also fairly easy ways of adapting the top to make it higher.

Now for a 14' retic, its again possible, but your filter needs to be that much bigger

Bloods? A lot of waste? What? Lol. No way the have rabbit turds.

The dimensions are 72"W x 24" H x 18" D

[formica]

the point about substrate level is very important, you will need allot for a short tail, i dont think using a heat mat will be possible

[jarich]

You will definitely not be able to use a heat mat, no. With that tank I would say either heat by lighting or by radiant heat panel.