Enigma Syndrome Discussion

EmbraceCalamity · 11-25-12, 05:40 PM

So I know this isn't a gecko forum, but there are some people here who have leos or at least are familiar with them. So I was curious about the opinions of people here about what's called Enigma Syndrome.

Basically, Enigma Syndrome is a neurological condition that allegedly results in seeing the world in constant motion that is present in all "enigmas," which is an extremely beautiful morph of leopard gecko produced back in 2006. Some enigmas have thus far lived their lives without showing symptoms (yet, as none have lived their full lives because they've only been around for 6 years). Symptoms can arise at any time in the gecko's life, so it's unclear if any will live their full lives without any.

Symptoms can range from just a slight head tilt or "stargazing" to circling, "death rolls," seizures, and an inability to even stand. I read one story about an enigma that had never shown any symptoms suddenly having an attack and choking on its shed. Obviously some have to be euthanised and some die, while others just need special care but can live relatively normally (thus far).

So, in the leo world, there's a huge debate about whether or not these should still be bred. Some believe it's possible to breed it out by breeding non-symptomatic enigmas or crossbreeding, while others believe they should be bred as long as full disclosure is given to the owners, and then some believe they should never be bred ever. I'm curious about what y'all think. But let me say ahead of time that this can and should be kept civil. Just a discussion. Nothing more.

~Maggot

BarelyBreathing · 11-25-12, 07:12 PM

Symptoms tend to arise around a stressful situation (shipping, vetting, breeding, egg laying, etc). I would tend to doubt that the choking was actually caused by enigma syndrome, as the symptoms usually start with a slow onset and progress as time goes on. I say that's just a weird coincidence, but I wouldn't bet money on that.

I am okay with them being bred on a few circumstances. First off, if an enigma is bred to a non enigma, the symptoms tend to lessen or not present at all. I would not breed a female enigma, though. The reason behind this is it is theorized that enigma syndrome affects how the animals' bodies absorb nutrients (Texas A&M study). I've read that in the animals showing severe symptoms, their bodies were severely deprived of certain nutrients. When females lay eggs, they are deprived of these nutrients. It only makes sense that this would be a good reason to not breed females.

EmbraceCalamity · 11-25-12, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

Symptoms tend to arise around a stressful situation (shipping, vetting, breeding, egg laying, etc). I would tend to doubt that the choking was actually caused by enigma syndrome, as the symptoms usually start with a slow onset and progress as time goes on. I say that's just a weird coincidence, but I wouldn't bet money on that.

One of my favourite Leopard gecko's died - Geckos Unlimited

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

I am okay with them being bred on a few circumstances. First off, if an enigma is bred to a non enigma, the symptoms tend to lessen or not present at all.

Except there's no way to know that for sure. None of these geckos could possibly be more than a few years old, meaning none of them have lived even half their lives yet.

~Maggot

BarelyBreathing · 11-25-12, 08:04 PM

No, there isn't a way to know that, however studies and tried and true personal experience tend to lean that way. I'm checking out that link now.

EmbraceCalamity · 11-25-12, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

No, there isn't a way to know that, however studies and tried and true personal experience tend to lean that way. I'm checking out that link now.

Except my point is that "personal experience" means nothing because it just means so far it appears to lessen the symptoms. Later, when these geckos are older, that might not be true anymore.

~Maggot

BarelyBreathing · 11-25-12, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmbraceCalamity

Except my point is that "personal experience" means nothing because it just means so far it appears to lessen the symptoms. Later, when these geckos are older, that might not be true anymore.

~Maggot

Unfortunately, there's really only one way to find out.

So, you posted the topic. What's your take on breeding?

EmbraceCalamity · 11-25-12, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

Unfortunately, there's really only one way to find out.

So, you posted the topic. What's your take on breeding?

I don't think it should ever, ever be done. The possibility of some success isn't worth the suffering of the inevitable failures. I've experienced seeing everything in constant motion, and it's very awful. As pretty as they are, the risks don't outweigh the benefits. Breeders have a duty to the animals they care for and produce to not intentionally cause suffering.

Quote:

Originally Posted by beardeds4life

I think they should be bred but only animals showing little to no symptoms should be bred and never 2 enigmas together. I know people who have perfectly normal enigmas.

What about the fact that the severity of the symptoms of the parents has little to no bearing on the severity of symptoms of the offspring?

~Maggot

beardeds4life · 11-25-12, 10:00 PM

I think they should be bred but only animals showing little to no symptoms should be bred and never 2 enigmas together. I know people who have perfectly normal enigmas.

beardeds4life · 11-25-12, 10:11 PM

I highly disagree with that. A mid to large size breeder that I regularly talk with breeds his no showing enigmas every year and always has no symptom enigmas. He doesnt breed 2 together because then they have 2 enigma genes and they have much worse symptoms.

In your first post you said lets keep it civil but it seems to me that you are being the most rude of anyone.

EmbraceCalamity · 11-25-12, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beardeds4life

I highly disagree with that. A mid to large size breeder that I regularly talk with breeds his no showing enigmas every year and always has no symptom enigmas. He doesnt breed 2 together because then they have 2 enigma genes and they have much worse symptoms.

In your first post you said lets keep it civil but it seems to me that you are being the most rude of anyone.

But how old are these geckos? Symptoms can appear at any time throughout their lives, and it's impossible that they're more than a few years old. Also, the probability that none of his geckos show any symptoms is astronomically small.

I've not been rude at all. I'm not sure what you're talking about. I asked you a legitimate question because this is a discussion - and questions are part of discussion.

~Maggot

BarelyBreathing · 11-26-12, 12:46 AM

How is Maggot being rude? You can disagree without being rude, and I think that Maggot is disagreeing in a polite and respectful way. That is why this is a discussion.

Anyway, I agree with you on some aspects, Maggot. It is our duty as breeders to be sure the wellfare of our animals comes first, both the parents and the offspring. I think breeding any animal needs to make that a priority. I think special care should be taken with these delicate animals, but then again, I would say that the same care and effort should be made for every animal, not just the problem ones.

beardeds4life · 11-26-12, 08:52 AM

Disregard the rude part. I re read your posts and I mis interpreted them. Sorry

Lankyrob · 11-26-12, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beardeds4life

Disregard the rude part. I re read your posts and I mis interpreted them. Sorry

Kudos for being man enough to apologise

Gregg M · 12-01-12, 05:04 PM

Here is my take on the enigma subject.
I was one of the first breeders to work with the enigmas. In fact, my friend Kelli was the one to prove the gene out and offered me some of the first available.

I can tell you that breeding enigma to non enigma does NOT lessen the syndrome. And breeding enigma to enigma does not worsen the syndrome. It is a crap shoot either way. Some will show less and some will show more no matter what the pairing is. Even if the enigma that produces offspring does not show signs, its offspring can still show the worst of the signs of ES.
Enigmas were almost exclusively outcrossed because there is no need to breed enigma to enigma because it does not make a super form. Pretty much from day one, they were bred into other morphs to create the next new designer leopard gecko.

This is not something that can be bred out of the enigmas. Unfortunately, the defect comes with the paint job. Same as it does with spider balls and jaguar carpets. The non enigma siblings NEVER show the signs of enigma syndrome. That tells the story right there. Anyone who says their enigma shows no sign of the syndrome is flat out lying or in total denial.

I have produced well over two hundred enigmas and never sold any of them because my personal feelings are that this type of defect should not be propagated in captivity. That is my personal feelings and I would never slam someone for feeling differently and wanting to breed them. They are pretty but in my opinion they make better feeders than they do pets or breeding projects.

beardeds4life · 12-01-12, 05:07 PM

What did you do with all 200?