Spinning spiders?

csolis · 02-10-05, 09:59 PM

Just wondering about this whole spider "spinners" situation. Does anyone who owns a spider have this probelm? Ive read and heard all the talk but just wondering if anyone has any first hand accounts.

malaysianbloods · 02-10-05, 10:51 PM

what are you talking about? There is a morph between the spider and pinstripe that is named very close to that.

brutus · 02-10-05, 11:10 PM

I was thinking, Huh?

BornboreD · 02-11-05, 12:19 AM

Well................

SOME people think that the Spider morph comes along with a "Neuroogical Defect" that causes the animal to actually"spin" meaning twist itself around uncontrollably when picked up or otherwise. There was a recent thread on Kingsnake about this, brought up by a certain someone. To my knowledge only a very small number of Spiders over the years have shown this, of which I've never witnessed.........perhaps one of the "gurus" could shed more light?? It seems to be a very similar situation to the "kinking" rumour in Caramel Albinos.

Colin

justinO · 02-11-05, 06:43 AM

I was told by a said "guru" that the spinning thing isn't actually a spin, and it goes away after a few months anyway, if by some tiny chance a snake of any ball morph happens to get it.
Also, that's it's not inheritable, and nothing showing that it is passed on, so there's nothing to worry about.

NiagaraReptiles · 02-11-05, 06:43 AM

The neurological issues with Spiders has only recently come into public light, but is a fact non the less. I've seen a half dozen or so in person, and have been given several statistics and accounts of breeders seeing the same thing in their offspring regardless of whether the parent had a problem or not. I don't think I could accurately put a percentage estimate to this problem as a lot of breeders are not saying anything still. It can be subtle, and doesn't manifest as a violent seizure or anything. Typically, the animal, when in motion, carries it's head tilted and seems to have a different movement about it. From what I've seen and heard, it appears as though this really shows once the snake is a little older and around 500-700 grams in weight. I don't believe that this is just a phase and that the animal will grow out of it.

As for the kinking in Caramels........um, that's far beyond rumour and has been known as fat for years. Again, I've seen several of these in person and have accounts from several Caramel Albino breeders. So far it doesn't look as though is a specific lineage, as there are a few wild caughts that also produce kinks. or inbreeding........it's just one of those things I guess. Usually the kink is right at the lower 1/3 point of the snake and the spine bends completely upwards. I have heard of a couple that have only had kinked tails beyond the vent, however.

No I do not have a Spider, and I'm not trying to knock them..........they are beautiful snakes............but this problem does exist.

JonK

Bristen · 02-11-05, 07:17 AM

The real issue here, is how much of a problem is it really? Most of the bigger breeders (that chose to deal with spiders) have all attested that these animals eat very well (some claim better than other ball pythons), they breed just as well as others (some claim better than others as well).. so if a snake is eating well, growing, breeding, making babies, etc... is there a problem to be concerned about? How many years has Kevin @ NERD had spiders in his collection? Any of them die from it? Is the animal "miserable" because of it? I personally would be more concerned with the kinking in Caramels than the "spinning spiders".. but that's just my opinion.. I don't own any spiders yet, but I sure hope to get my hands on one this year (almost impossible) or next year (slightly possible)...

Thanks for listening,
Bristen.

RandyRemington · 02-11-05, 07:59 AM

To me one of the real issues is why both of these tendencies (spiders to spin and caramels to kink) took so long to come out in public. I first became aware of both within the last year and don't think either was posted publicly before that although the caramel one might have been known by some inside breeders.

There was a post by Jeremy Stone about learning about the spider thing when he hatched babies (in 2003 I think). He must have paid $10K - $20K for his male and it sounded like not a word had been mentioned to him.

Maybe neither problems are big deals but at least buyers should be informed and as a group discussing the issues we might be able to come up with some solutions. The secrecy makes me wonder what else I don't know about the morph projects I'm working toward or would like to get involved in.

Bristen · 02-11-05, 12:04 PM

As always Randy, you come up with interesting thoughts... one thing is for sure though, the more people have morphs, the more it will become impossible to keep this type of information secret...

There are particular rumours that are interesting though... some of those are

a) spinning spiders
b) kink-ing caramels
c) non-eating pieds and het-pieds

There could be many others that I don't know about.. does anybody have more of those? I'm wondering if it's a known fact that pieds and het-pieds are worst eaters than regular ball pythons, or it's just a rumour? Fill me in if anybody knows more on this one or other "morph bad news".. I'd be much interested in it...

As Randy said, it would be interesting to know all of this before you invest big dollars into something...

Thanks,
Bristen.

BoidKeeper · 02-11-05, 12:06 PM

Quote:

eat very well (some claim better than other ball pythons),

I've heard the opposite; I've heard they have terrible aim.
That one point aside I have to disagree with your whole post. I think it is morally wrong to continue to produce animals that know to have genetic defects all in the name of the mighty dollar. Anyone who spends that much on a snake is making an investment and wants a return kink or no kink neurological disorder or not.
My two cents,
Trevor

Markus Jayne · 02-11-05, 12:55 PM

Having a spider myself and having produced over dozen of them, I feel I should address this issue.

Let me say that of all the ball pythons I own, Spiders are by far the hardiest. I purchased my Spider from Rennaisance Reptiles in the summer of 2003. I was very picky about which Spider I was eventually going to buy and waited until I saw one that truly represented what I thought was the perfect spider.

He never missed a meal and grew like a weed. At 4 months of age he was over 600 grams and I placed him in with a small female. An hour later he was locked up like a pro. To make a long story short, he fathered 7 clutches...all fertile!!!! Not bad for a young male and a problem morph! LOL!

When the Spiders started hatching it was truly incredible. His good looks and fetching personality were passed along without fail. Very reduced tight pattern with no spotting.

Now getting to what some people claim is neurological damage. I have seen some different behavior in some of my Spiders, but nothing that I would be alarmed by. Occasionally they will try to climb up their container and flip over backwards. I have normals that do that! Some will do what you would consider a mild case of star gazing. But spin...never!

I did a study of my own just now. I took out all my spiders individually and placed each one of them down on my floor and let them go. They ALL crawled around like normal. One however had a very mild head shake when he would lift it a few inches off the ground and pause. When I say mild, I mean barely noticable, but I thought I'd mention it.

I can also say this, that every one of my Spiders ate the first time it was offered food and still eat without ever missing a meal, and I start all my balls on RATS! Not mice! They keep eating. They keep growing and they breed young!!!!

I also don't think they have bad aim, I just think they are extremely eager and get a head of themselves sometimes, just like many of my aggressive feeders. I feed my balls live and good aim is a factor otherwise serious damage could occur of which I have had none.

I only had one customer call with a concern about the one with the mild head shake and he chose to take another instead which is now breeding.

To make a statement on a public forum and throw out a number without any personal experience whatsoever is irresponsible and grossly negligent. Yes, maybe someone did have problems with Spiders, but maybe they also spray or treat there cages with something that caused it. Who knows? I certainly don't. I would like to know if there is a problem as well, with any ball python morph for that matter.

I find it funny that people can come out on a public forum and make a blanket statement about a morph without ever owning one let alone breed and produce them. It's a shame really. Hmmm...and it always seems to happen when my name is attached to it in some way. Go figure. Was there a hidden adgenda. I'm beginning to think so. This isn't the first time it's happened. I thought things had changed.

In closing, if there was a problem, and I'm talking about a real significant problem, don't you think that it would have been brought to light a long time ago. Afterall people were spending in the tens of thousands for Spiders and nothing was mention once until recently and by some one who has zero experience. That should tell you something.

I don't want to sound like I am defending owning and breeding Spiders. That is ridiculous in itself. But I could certainly see a lot of the have-nots having a field day with this one as a way to justify them not owning one in the first place. JMHO!

Now to Caramels....

I have heard of but never witnessed any kinking. I have also never produced any caramels so I can't comment from personal experience. I love caramels and am very bullish on the morph. I am working with both the Janie Malsin/Doug Beard line and the Mark Ball line I acquired from Brian Sharp. I have decided to outcross these two line to avoid any potential problems. I'll keep you posted.

Have a great day! Spring is on its way.

Mark

mykee · 02-11-05, 12:59 PM

I'm with Bristen on this one. If this "neurological disorder" does not manifest itself as a breeding, eating, eliminating or normal behavior problem, what's the problem? From what I've heard they are great eaters, prolific breeders and beautiful specimens. I personally would have more of a problem with purchasing a non-eating and/or non-breeding het pieds or pieds then I would with a spider who eats, breeds and poops like a champ who might or might not have a slight neurological problem. JMOI.

BoidKeeper · 02-11-05, 01:06 PM

Hi Mark,
I hope that the statement I made that you or anyone else could consider blanket is that I believe it would be unethical to breed a snake if you knew it had a genetic problem. If the snake is fine then of course there is no problem. But no matter what the species or what the morph if there is a problem it shouldn't be bred. I'm not trying to say that people who have health spiders shouldn't breed them. I'm saying that people who invest into a snake, be it spider or a boa with out eyes or an amel corn with a kink and breeds it any way only to try and make a return on their investment is behaving un-ehtically.
Cheers,
Trevor

BoidKeeper · 02-11-05, 01:08 PM

mykee albino boas with out eyes eat and poop and breed too. Would you buy one of them to use in a project?
Cheers,
Trevor

Markus Jayne · 02-11-05, 03:07 PM

Trevor,

I was not referring to you in regards to making a blanket statement. I was referring to the original post on the 'other' forum. I think that this is a good topic of discussion.

In regards to breeding animals known to have severe problems, I agree it is unethical.

Years ago I was into breeding dogs. Labrador retrievers to exact. Labs are famous for getting hip displasia. All my females were from the best of bloodlines and they were all cleared of any hip displasia and eye problems from certified vets. However there were some labs that although cleared would still throw pups that got hip dis before 2 years of age. Does that mean that we should all stop breeding dogs and more specifically, labs?

Of all the labs I produced (12 litters) I only had one come back with bad hips and she was grossly overweight. But I do know of sires that, although cleared and from great pedigree, threw pups consistantly with bad hips. It happens.

The point I am trying to make is we all try to do our best with what we have and for someone to pretend to be a professional and make a statistical statement without concrete evidence, proves otherwise.

Mark