Growing your own food

[Auskan]

I'm just curious how many people grow their own snake food? I have a Ball Python, a Garter snake (currently brumating) & 2 Corn Snakes, and with the recent addition of the corns, I realized that my feeding bill was getting higher than it would cost me to raise my own. So last weekend I purchased a CritterTrail house, one male and two female mice and I'm now anxiously awaiting my first litter (in approx 3 weeks :-) ) Anyway, mostly I was just curious how many people have gone this route, but I also have a couple of questions:

1) Obviously pinkies are newborns. What age are fuzzies, hoppers, weanlings?

2) I feed my ball python 2 fuzzies a week & the corns a pinkie each every five days. I figured 2-3 female mice would be sufficient to keep me in food, but I'm just guessing. Any input?

[dr greenlove]

I have never actually bred rodents for my animals, but i would think that unless you have a very large collection of rodent eating animals then it would be vastly easier to buy pre-killed frozen.

Rodent keeping will take up more of your time than the snake keeping will, the hairy buggers are very smelly and will need a fair amount of food and bedding material (which costs).

Plus can you guarentee that they are parasite free? (frozen will be much 'cleaner')


And how are you at killing the rodents prior to feeding? (in the UK it is illegal for us to feed live rodents to snakes, i am not sure about the by-laws were you might live)

[chas*e]

I let someone else grow them(rats/mice) ...too much mess and stink and time to do it myself....I buy them by quantity, freeze them, and sell them to other herpers...making free, sort of, feeders for myself...

[Auskan]

Well....the breeders kind of double as pets, as I have always loved small, furry mammals too. When I was a kid I kept and bred mice and rats and had some wonderful habitats for them. Yes, there is odor, but I guess I'm just not one of those fussy people who cares about that too much. I do use a litter that reduces odor, but don't mind putting up with a little. For my kids, the male & 2 female mice are pets and we like to get them out and hold them. Their offspring will be food, but I figure with what I save on buying food for the snakes, the mice will pay for themselves. (Yes, there are incidental costs on upkeep, but a huge bag of food was only $3.50 and will last them for about 6 months at the rate they are eating it so far, and the bedding is very cheap too).

As for how to kill/feed, I have another thread going to get opinions on that. I might feed some live but want to keep my snakes accepting frozen, and I am currently (on the other thread) garnering opinion on the most humane way to kill.

[vanderkm]

As you indicate, pinkies are newborn until they start to get a light coating of fuzzy fur (7 days). Fuzzies are from that stage til their eyes open (14 days), and they are hoppers after their eyes open until they are weaned (3-5 weeks depending on your system) because they jump all over the place when disturbed (should be called biters at that age!).

Mice can be difficult to get going as a breeding colony - a lot depends on the bloodlines of your stock. Many are not tolerant of disruptions until they are established, so handling the parents may interfere with breeding and rearing young (though some mice don't seem to mind). Basically not a good idea to add any adults to the colony once it is established or they fight a lot. With a Crittertrail type house, watch out for escaping baby mice - they squeeze through the bars.

The two females will likely synchronize on breeding and you will end up with 12-20 babies every month. Easiest to leave the male with the females and just have them re-bred continually - they do very well producing litters continuously. Usually better than the disruptions of taking the male out and putting him back in our experience.

Will work fine if you are killing and freezing pinkies and fuzzies to supply yourself with frozen, likley with many to spare. Once your snakes require hoppers and adult mice (within a year for the corns and the ball could likely take those at hatching) you will need a separate set up to grow out the feeders. This is when the smell starts to become an issue, as males over about 6 weeks of age start to urine mark and sexes need to be separate unless you want more breeding going on. Of course this is if all goes well and your group settles in to breed - you will soon be over-supplied.

I have commented on killing methods on another thread, but can provide more detailed suggestions if required.

mary v.

[Auskan]

Thanks, Mary, for all the info. I was considering keeping one of the females from one of the first litters as a third breeding female, but it sounds like it won't be necessary. I am planning on getting a Californian King Snake soon, so that was one more reason why I decided to go ahead and do this now, as the more snakes I add, the more food I need (duh!)

[Syco]

Auskan- Just remember, excess mice just gives you a reason to buy more snakes, you have to have something to eat all those mice, right? That's the way I look at it anyway. Seriously though, your original mice will probably only produce well for you for about 6 months of continuous breeding, make sure when it gets close to that time make sure you keep back some babies to replace them.

I realized that my feeding bill was getting higher than it would cost me to raise my own.

I tried it on a larger scale than you and could never get my costs lower than bulk frozen.

a huge bag of food was only $3.50

here's part of it, same reason I don't buy petstore mice (into the mouse into the snake) high quality lab blocks will 4X your feeding expense (though increase your litter size and mice health|).

I feed my ball python 2 fuzzies a week

Why? From what I know, most BP will happily eat juvis from birth. I would figure rat pups or weanlings at least. Anyway rats breed easies, smell less, interact more. |I still don't think you can beat the 100@$100 for large rat deal I saw. If you know other herpers in your area get them to order with you, you figure your 3 will eat about 120-150 meals a year. Lol, I'll trade you, I make two ~600 animal orders a years for my brood. I average about 0.62 per feeder item and the bulk of my orders are jumbo mice.

[tai_pan1]

I find the convienance the biggest advantage of raising my own. I have mice ready on demand. I also have a corn that will only eat live so I generally have an appropriate sized prey item on hand. It does take a lot more work. The mice need to be fed and watered daily. Can't skip a day or two like you can with the snakes. Oversupply is also a problem. I have a friend who has a large Pac Man frog that I just gave 2 1/2 pounds of frozen mice to, and I still have about 5 pounds of mice in my freezer most are in the 6 gram to 20 gram range, so as you can imagine, that's a lot of mice!

[Smilts]

i have a breeding pair but only two do you all thinmk it would be better to get a second female or is one good?

[crimsonking]

Auskan, unless you have quite a few more snakes to feed than you do now (not necessarily an endorsement to get more ) you will be hard pressed to break even when compared to buying from a big breeder I think. Don't forget to put the $$ value of your time that you invest into the project along with rodent chow, water bottles, bedding etc. I have hundreds of snakes and many more mice yet (I need to) buy live and frozen any time I can get them at a good price. I am not sure I can raise a pink or mouse myself for .20 ea. I doubt it seriously.
:Mark

[Linds]

Right now I have 200+ live rats and about 15 mice in my basement either breeding or being grown to size. I only pump about $60 CDN in to maintaining them on a monthly basis. For small collections it may not be worth it in terms of saving $$, although quality control and convenience may make up for it. You need to pay attention to operating efficiently as well... if you get your supplies at a pet store you will be out more than you would think. I get my shavings for $4 per 3.5 cubic foot bag at the co-op, I feed them low quality dog food ($15 30? lb bag).
If you do decide to go with it, I would suggest going with rats. Mice are a headache x10. They smell bad, get stressed out easily (babyeating, halted breeding, etc), and bite. Your ball python shouldn't be feeding on fuzzy mice. I don't know how old it is, but they can take pinky rats or hopper (sometimes even adult) mice as soon as they hatch. Corns can start taking day old pinky rats from several months of age.

[Auskan]

Thanks for all your thoughts. For me, its not all about saving money (indeed you may be right and its not cost-effective at all). However, I am quite fond of the little buggers and enjoy them as pets too. Also, I do have plans to increase my snake collection so if a surplus of mice is the "excuse" I need to add a new snake, well, I guess that's just what I'll have to do