freehandling hots?

davo · 02-23-05, 04:47 AM

I have only very recently joined this forum but have had a strong interest in reptiles in general and venomous snakes in particular for nearly 30 years. The general opinion of most forum members regarding free handling of hots seems to be DON'T they are not pets and you are an idiot if you do it.
I can only comment on those I have had experience with, mainly autralian elapids.I have raised several Australian tiger snakes (notechis scutatus) form birth to well into adulthood. I made a point of free handling these at least every couple of days including just prior to and just after feeding. I can honestly say these snakes never made any attempt to strike at me and never became aggressive or aggitated and seemed to be able to distinquish between what was food and what was me.
I sometimes need to relocate adult snakes from the house yard and do NOT freehandle these but have done so with wild caught sub-adult common copperheads (another elapid australaps superbus)without any problem.These have been hooked first to gauge their mood.
I do not advocate freehandling in general and concede it may not be a good idea in most cases but I do not believe it is necessarily a stupid or foolhardy thing to do.
If you had a hot from birth and regularly handled it albeit with a hook and it was always calm, never showed any aggression nor attempted to strike at you, at what point would you trust it?

Woodpusher · 02-23-05, 06:20 AM

If I ever did end up getting into the world of venomous snakes - I can honestly say that I would NEVER trust any captive snakes that have the venom and delivery to end my life.

ChurleR · 02-23-05, 12:11 PM

Do you mean free-handling as in allowing the snake free roam up your arm, or free-handling as in just tailing without a hook?

I've never done either, and I don't plan on it. A hit to the chest or face from an agitated Elapid, and you'd be screwed unless you practiced self innoculating...

Most of the snakes I've worked with (I don't keep any at the moment, I will be getting a little <i>Sistrurus</i> this summer) are hemotoxic, and therefor I'll assume impossible to gain passive resistance to their venom... unless you want your injection sites rapidly rotting away.

Snakes have basal instincts, as much as you can teach them through constant handling it's all thrown out the window as soon as they feel the least bit threatened.

-Will

BWSmith · 02-23-05, 12:56 PM

Short Answer: Why would you use a more dangerous method when it is just as easy to use proper equipment? If there is a safer way, why not use it? I think the question is not why WOULDN'T you freehandle, but rather why WOULD you?

Religious Snake Handling is about the only "semi-valid" reason I know of. And while I certainly do not agree with the practice, I respect the right of religious freedom. If they want to jiggle snakes in church, more power to them.

Quote:

you had a hot from birth and regularly handled it albeit with a hook and it was always calm, never showed any aggression nor attempted to strike at you, at what point would you trust it?

Never. Snakes are pure instinct, therefore "trusting" them holds no merit.

atheris · 02-23-05, 08:28 PM

If youre playing 30 years with "dangerous" snakes you should already know whats ok and whats not and what is true and what is bullshit.

I say this topic is troll or writer is an big idiot !

davo · 02-24-05, 02:42 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BWSmith
[Religious Snake Handling is about the only "semi-valid" reason I know of. And while I certainly do not agree with the practice, I respect the right of religious freedom. If they want to jiggle snakes in church, more power to them.

So if I hum a hymn or say a prayer it's OK!

davo · 02-24-05, 03:15 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BWSmith
[Religious Snake Handling is about the only "semi-valid" reason I know of. And while I certainly do not agree with the practice, I respect the right of religious freedom. If they want to jiggle snakes in church, more power to them.

So if I hum a hymn or say a prayer it's OK!

OOPS! Didn't mean to post that again, won't delete.

ChurleR · 02-24-05, 05:37 PM

He didn't say it was "Ok", just that he agrees with freedom of religion.

Gregg M · 02-25-05, 04:36 PM

To me, freehandling is just a stupid macho act that does not do a snake or handler any good and it can only do harm...... I just do not see the "pros" to freehandling..... I have heard just about every excuse but have yet to hear one that is valid..... I want to know how anyone can trust an animal that runs just about purely on instinct, with your life???? It just does not add up..... I guess this is natural selection at work....LOL

ReptiZone · 02-25-05, 04:54 PM

I do not own Venomous snakes Yet I will give my self a few years of study and try and find a mentor to walk me threw 2 monts of hands on training.

But my oppinion is that free handeling is an unnecessary risk that puts your self any one that may be in the same room as your self and is just an irresponsible trainig method.

but that might just be me.

The ReptiZone
Marc Doiron

cobraman · 02-25-05, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Short Answer: Why would you use a more dangerous method when it is just as easy to use proper equipment? If there is a safer way, why not use it? I think the question is not why WOULDN'T you freehandle, but rather why WOULD you?

I realize that coming from me, of all people, this will sound ironic, but I fully agree with Brian. If you have a safer method, that is not harmfull to the animal, why would you want to free handle? If you have a valid reason, well just be carefull, otherwise just don't.

cobraman · 02-25-05, 09:29 PM

Quote:

To me, freehandling is just a stupid macho act

Quote:

and you are an idiot if you do it

On the other hand, I would not go this far. People may do stupid things (as perceived by others anyway), but I will never pretend to be able to judge someone as STUPID or an IDIOT because they do something that appears stupid to me. I have yet to hear anyone refer to Mr. Haast as stupid or an idiot, and nobody has free handled more than him, and nobody has been bitten more than him.

I will never make an excuse for the amount of free handling I have done. Why? Because I don't have to. I don't owe anyone an explanation for what I do, and nor do you owe me an explaination for what you do or would not do. However I will be the first one (well, maybe a tie with BW Smith) to say that it is dangerous and should not be done. And with a very few exceptions, I will not be around anyone that free handles, or handles like I do.

Last weekend, I was invited to watch Dave Weathers (does shows on MTV's "Wild Boys") perform his "kiss of death" show with a 13 foot King Cobra. Dave is a friend of mine, and seems to be a good handler, however I would not care to see this show again. I felt that it was far too dangerous at times, and the risk can outweigh the entertainment. I DO NOT respect a show off when it comes to venomous snakes (and I'm not calling Dave a show-off). I handle the way I handle regardless of if I am alone, or there are thirty people around with cameras.

I will do what I do, and you do what you do, but we can still rise above the self rightousness and spirit of criticizm and be friends.
Blessings,
Ray

stevoclon · 02-26-05, 04:58 AM

You are not an idiot,

stevoclon · 02-26-05, 05:21 AM

Quote:

If you had a hot from birth and regularly handled it albeit with a hook and it was always calm, never showed any aggression nor attempted to strike at you, at what point would you trust it?

Tricky question their Steve, but I see what you are saying and would love to hear more

Brent Strande · 02-26-05, 11:06 AM

Quote:

If you had a hot from birth and regularly handled it albeit with a hook and it was always calm, never showed any aggression nor attempted to strike at you, at what point would you trust it?

I would trust it at the point that it were no longer venemous and posing a threat to my life.

The strangest things have happened. Like being bit by a normal temperament corn or bci. You know, the "family pet" that everyone trusted. Not much harm then, but imagine if that same animal were able to deliver venom? I still agree that I haven't seen any valid reasons to need to freehandle.