venomous snakes

KsKing · 09-17-04, 09:24 AM

Hmmm probibally going to stirr up a hornets nest here but im gona speak my mind. After all this is a forum this is where its done. Im sure some will agree some will disagree with some of my "opinions" but im not posting to put down anyone. Now aside from the people that keep and handle venomous snakes professionally for an actual purpose im very suprsed at the actual number of people that keep these exotic killers and more suprised at the number of people that say that they want to. I really dont see the point of keeping highly venomous snakes "as a hobby". Now I agree that they are very beautiful and amazing creatures and I admire and have the most respect for snakes in question but Damn keeping these things as pets is insaine. Im sure the people that do this would even agree that you have to be a little bit crazy to do it. Im actually very interested in some of the reasons that some of you have for keeping potentially deadly snakes. That is a serious question im trying not to pre judge so im asking. Now im refering to snakes like cobras, mambas, gaboons, tiapans, and the sort. You know the kind, If you get bit your going to die. Most people live through rattlesnake and copperhead bites so im not really refering to species of that nature. Also I dont understand why everyone gets so worked up about venomoids (snakes with fangs surgically removed). As long as the procedure is done by a profesional vetrinarian I would not consider it any different than neutering a dog which is generally considered a humaine practice. If people are going to keep these snakes for personal reasons wouldnt you prefer that thay were not lethal for the keepers and their familys sake. Now dont tell me that your taking away a snakes weapon and they need them because im refering to captive bred snakes and fangs serve no purpose in captivity. They will live a relavively stress free life out of danger and being taken care of and fed pre killed rodents most of the time. Actually wouldnt the snake receive better care if it was made non leathal due to ease of maintenance? Anyone that dosent see my point there is probibally one of those that keeps venomous to prove how big your balls are and id rather see people keep them that actually respected the creature.
Again these are my opinions and im not trying to put anyone down although im sure some of you feel that i have. If im wrong please give me some intelligent reasons why. Im an open minded person, Hell i love snakes i must be right.

Samba · 09-17-04, 10:00 AM

Ok, first off, removing a snake's fangs and neutering a dog are as different as night and day. Venom is actually a specialized saliva that has a purpose - it subdues prey, causes death, and starts the disgestive process for the snake. It is extremely inhumane to remove their fangs; and if you fear the snake so much that you feel it's neccessary for you to keep the snake than you shouldn't bother with it in the first place.

Your post leads me to believe that you are uneducated with regards to hot snakes. While you may be looking for answers here it's not going to do any good if you can't keep an open mind, so if you can than read on...

Snakes, hot or not, are interesting, beautiful, and sometimes wonderful pets. The extent of my 'hot' keeping is limited to hognosed snakes, so I can't tell you why people keep seriously deadly hots. Like any pet, they have the ability to turn against their keepers, and it's always the keeper's responsibility to guard against injury.

I keep an enormous burmese python (ok, well he's not THAT big, but it can still be dangerous). Why do I keep it? It's my pet, I truely love this animal, even though it can't love me. It's never tried to hurt, bit or constrict me. My snake is a part of my family (and no I don't 'keep' any kids).

I do understand what you expressing, but I think if you own any pets of your own you'll understand. For some, hots are not pets, and are considered a hobby instead, like collecting shot glasses, I guess. Either belief is fine with me. Any animal I own is a pet and a member of my family, no matter what species.

There are a few people out there that own hots just to prove they have 'big balls' as you put it, and I'm sure this isn't the audience you are hoping to reach here. The real reason why people keep 'hot' snakes? Don't be shocked but it's because we LIKE them!!

hooter · 09-17-04, 10:58 AM

I agree with KsKing,

To bad KsKing that no one eles will agree with you because most of these forums members are very self minded. I'm not trying to start anything but once someone such as Samba disagrees the whole thread will disagree. This is very usual of this forum :P. I truly dont mean that in a bad way so please dont flame me. Just my opinion

Samba, Like KsKing said why would they need fangs in captivity? Sure it serves a purpose to kill prey and all that but F/T prey is um... dead!

Oh well, I agree 100% with everything stated and no one can convince me that taking the fangs out of a snake is anymore worse than neutering a dog. If it doesnt hurt the snake or effect how it lives then how does this matter? I would really like to know!

treegirl · 09-17-04, 11:01 AM

good response, Samba!

KsKing · 09-17-04, 11:03 AM

Good post I agree with everything you said reguarding keeping snakes and that is the mentality that anyone should have keeping any animal. If its for another reason the animal will not receive the best care that it diserves. I also agree that

Quote:

if you fear the snake so much that you feel it's neccessary so you can keep the snake than you shouldn't be owning it in the first place.

However i am not ignorant of venomous snakes or any venomous creature as that goes. Im no expert but venoms serve different purposes depending on the species. To say that they "need" them to start the digestive process is a stretch. In captivity they are not required to subdue prey and cause death so lets discuss the digestive issue. True some venoms cause the breakdown and necrosis of tissue but alot of kept snakes are fed prekilled (thawed) food. Are these bitten then eaten in every instance. Probibally not. It is very unlikely that the snakes digestive process relies on the venom to function. Other venoms attack the central nervous system and have no digestive properties whatsoever. So i supose it depends on the species and It would be safe to say that alot more research is required before an assumption can be made. I also believe that venomous snakes would make terrible pets as they are alot more agressive than other nonvenomous snakes. Nonvenomous snakes defense comes with hiding, evading, bluffing, and biting as a last resort but with little effect. Venomous snakes have the tools to defend themselves and its in there nature to use them if they feel the need so they are alot quicker to show agression and strike. I supose that depends on the ability and tolerance of the handler to deal with this. Reguarding venimoids i still fail to see how it can be

Quote:

extremely inhumane to remove their fangs

That is a matter of opinion as well and it is not entirely different than neutering a dog. Dosent that dog need its nuts to provide the hormones that make it function like a normal animal?

HeatherRose · 09-17-04, 11:14 AM

Very few people who keep hots regard them as pets.

For anyone thinking that a venomoid operation is fine as long as it's done by a competent, legit veterinarian, do yourself a favour and check this out: http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...threadid=38920

Heather

Nicky · 09-17-04, 11:21 AM

When you remove the fangs dosen't it kill them? Because they need the venom to digest and what not and without the fangs they can't use it? I saw it on a show once where this chick in africa was trying to crack down on snake charmers and get them arrested because all there snakes died a few weeks later after the fangs were removed?
Just curious
Kayla

treegirl · 09-17-04, 11:26 AM

I totally disagree with your statement that 'when Samba disagrees the whole thread will disagree'? Hello? Do you actually 'read' these forums? Samba has been at the very heart of many heated debates and not everyone agrees with her or anyone else for that matter.

I tend to agree with her because she seems to have a lot of knowledge concerning animals and a heart to go with it.

Actually, doesn't the venom also provide fluid that starts to break down the animal with digestive juices?

Samba · 09-17-04, 11:31 AM

Hooter - I really resent you saying that "once someone such as Samba disagrees the whole thread will disagree" What a cheap shot! Really, do you think I have that kind of influence?!?! That's rediculous! Maybe the thread will agree with me because a majority of the people here are intelligent and know that this is basically the abuse of an animal we are discussing here...

Some captive snakes still need venom because it starts the digestive process by breaking down the prey from the inside out. Removing their fangs, and method of injecting venom will probably cause digestive problems for them.

If you want to remove the fangs of a snake just to keep it 'safe' that's just sad. Go get a dog.

Heather - Thanks for posting the thread. What a sad and cruel world this is. I really hate the idea of someone attempting to remove the venom/fangs from a snake who probably hasn't even been given any sort of pain management. Poor things must have been terrified.

Samba · 09-17-04, 11:34 AM

Ha! Thanks, Dawnell! LOL

Kayla, most snake-charmers' animals probably die from massive infections. It's a sad, slow and painful death and it's completely undeserved by these beautiful animals.

Nicky · 09-17-04, 11:35 AM

Tree girl,
yes i heard something similar to that either way I'm pretty sure that the snake dies after the procedure, also how would the snake eat if it didn't have it's fangs to grip the prey? I've never seen a venomous snake eat but as far as I know they use the fangs to grip on and swollow.
Kayla

Samba · 09-17-04, 11:40 AM

Some species do use the fangs to grasp and pull the prey into their mouths. Venom, mixed with other saliva, also helps coat the prey with a mucus to aide in swallowing, (I believe).

It's really besides the point, though. Think of the kind of owner this snake will have if they actually think removing the fangs is no big deal. They shouldn't be purchasing hot animals if they don't want to accept the risk of being envenomated.

It's just plain self-ishness to remove these vital parts from a snake. As for the comparision to neutering a dog, let me offer you these ideas;

1.) Neutering a dog is simply severing the Vas Defrens, and I believe currently most vets do not remove the testes, which provide the hormones you mentioned earlier.

2.) Neutering a dog is a simple operation with little risk of infection.

There are a lot of hot keepers on this site who keep their animals fully intact, and many have never been struck or envenomated due to their excellent regard for the animal. They practice safe handling techniques and common sense.

If you don't want a venomous snake, don't buy one!

KsKing · 09-17-04, 12:12 PM

Heatherrose id also like to thank you for posting the thread. It is sad and that just suports the fact tha someone not experienced with gland romoval should not be performing the procedure. It sounded like a vet doing an practice exploratory surgery on a dead snake like any doctor would do before working on a live patient. Aparently everyone else stoped reading the thread when they saw what only supported there opinion. If you were to keep reading the thread, a link was posted at the end. http://www.smuggled.com/VenArt1.htm I found it very informative but I dont think many here will like it. Read the whole thing. But dont get me wrong here I dont justify the procedure just so someone can say that they have a cobra. I think there better off in profesional hands for science purposes or in the wild. But thanks to heatherrose we now have more evidence that it is not an inhumaine act.

Btw this was not supose to be a venomoid flaming thread I was wanting to know keepers reasoning for collecting very deadly species for personal pets or hobbies.

Back to neutering a dog. The neutering procedure is not for the sole purpos of rendering the dog infertal. It is a selfish act of removing the testicles to make the dog more keepable so it will be less agressive and not have the animal tendancy to roam. Severing the vas defrens is called a vasectomy. Ive had one and its not a big deal other than a few days with ice on the jewls. Neutering a dog has a far greater impact and larger change to the animal than venom glan removal would do to a snake. Neutering a human is refered to as castration. A word that brings chills to every male. It has the same impacts that a hysterectomy has to a female. They cant live a normal life without daily hormones. Hot flashes, no sex drive, and being very quiet ans submissive. I dated a girl that had a hysteroctomy and i knew very quickly if she forgot her pill. I even knew her before sugery so i know how it changed her. It took hormones to make her normal. Still the neutering is totally accepted by most people. I think everyone is just taking the reptile side and not considering these animals equally.

Samba · 09-17-04, 12:31 PM

Well, it's hard to consider them equally when they're not even the same thing! I don't know how you can compare the two!

The number one reason for having a dog neutered is NOT to make it calmer, or stop the animal from roaming (it should be enclosed properly anyways). The number one reason is to prevent impregnantion and puppies, because we humans have caused an overpopulation issue. Few people think of the other, smaller effects on the personality of the dog. Secondarily, I don't think these changes occur unless the testes are removed completely.

There is not one good reason why a snake should have it's fangs and/or venom glands removed. Not ONE.

treegirl · 09-17-04, 12:40 PM

How many millions of unwanted dogs are euthanized every year due to irresponsible owners NOT nuetering/spaying their animals?