So you want to get trained for hot keeping

[Mustangrde1]

Welcome to Hot Elementary School


Kindergarten

This is your beginning in hot keeping. Day 1 of training for keeping of venomous reptiles when you get acquainted with the tools of the trade. The snakes hook they come in all shapes and sizes from little collapsible that are no more than 6 inches to massive python hooks up to 8 feet long. Snake probes that look like your mothers knitting needless. Snake tubes plastic tubes for placing snakes in for safe handling that look more suitable for holding paper towels or toilet paper then putting snakes in. Tongs for grabbing snakes that make you think your going out picking up trash in a park rather then picking up snakes. Ha you thought on day one you would be handling the animals think again. You have to be good at the tools of the trade and comfortable with them on nonvenomous snakes before getting close to the real animals.

First Grade.

As you trainer says are you ready for some fun today and your eyes are bright and bulging starring at the hot room and dreams of working with venomous snakes are bouncing through your head. You teacher says the ball python cages are dirty and need cleaning as do all the other nonvenomous animals. Your heart sinks and your nose curls as you relies that this is not going to be a quick deal to work with venomous but a long slow process where you will be putting in your dues.
Your teacher walks out with you and says every cage needs to be cleaned and every animal needs to be treated as though it were HOT and you must use the proper tools to safely remove them out of the cage and place them in a safety container. Then you must clean the cages and replace the animal using the same safety procedures.
At this point your thinking I am this guys slave just for cleaning cages and am never going to get to handle the venomous I want to.

Second Grade.

After several weeks of properly under supervision of your trainer cleaning cages you hear him / her say OK today we work with the hots. Your heart stops your eyes bulge and you think finally I get to work with them. He walks toward the hot room you hot on his heals and he stops you at the door and says you stand here. He then walks in and opens a Cobras cage. You are thinking all right my turns coming and he says here go clean this cage and repaper it. Back to cage cleaner you go. All day long you repeat this procedure watching him over and over remove the animals himself you wish to work with and handing you the cage to clean.
This goes on for several weeks you watching him handling. You are thinking why did I even want to learn from this guy or why do I even want to be here if I cant handle the snakes myself. I am just a cage cleaner for this person but I do get to at least see the snakes.

Third Grade.

Finally after several months of cage cleaning you walk in and he says sit down we need to talk. You are wondering what is going on what have I done wrong my teacher looks so serious and is wanting to have a sit down, here goes my training I have pissed him off or something.
He says ok Joe/Jane. What have you learned in the last few months? You pause and think, You say well I have learned how to use Tongs and Hooks so many times cleaning cages that its like an appendage of my own body. I have learned how to get the snakes out of their cages without getting bit. I can smell a dirty tank at 50 paces or a regurge at 100 yards. Your trainer says OK have you been bit since you started using the tools here or at home? You think No, I no longer just reach in to a cage without thinking. Your trainer ask Are your own cages kept cleaner now? You think yes they are I can now smell them when they are dirty and IM more alert to cleaning them on site also. Your trainer ask do you just open cages now without looking first? You stop and think NO i now look for the animal in all cages before opening.
Congratulations Mr. Cage Cleaner without your knowledge your trainer broke the bad habits that could have got you killed. You now look before opening a cage. You now use the proper tools for handling. You now pay more attention in what your about to do instead of just reaching in and grabbing the animal to do what's needed.

Your keeper say OK today we need to sex some animals today you get some hands on training. Your thinking to yourself hot dog I get to get some animals out and probe them and handle them. As you and your trainer walk towards the door he stops you again and says wait here. He walks in the room and opens up an Eastern Diamond Backs cage and hooks the animal out. Your thinking OK very dangerous for two people to be in the room he is going to bring it out here for me to work with. As you watch in disbelief as he manipulates it in to a tube and then picks it up and says OK go ahead and probe it.

Fourth Grade.

Well, now you are at least getting to touch the venomous reptiles even though you have probably probed many snakes of your own. You watch your trainer get out many snakes for probing. You see him carefully open the boxes/cages they are in being sure to keep his body parts away from the strike range of the animals. You watch him take his time with the animals to manipulate them in to the tubes.
After doing this for some time he says to you OK come in the room. You are going OK now IM going to what sweep the floor mop it maybe or get clean some of the empty cages after all I am The Great Cage Cleaner.
Your thinking man I have been doing this for 4 months now and the closest I get is to their poop or the poop shoot. When out of the blue your trainer says OK open that box up over there its all yours. Your eyes light up your heart jumps a beat your thinking finally I GET TO GET ONE OUT. you go over to the box and open it up as you trainer says how did the bite on your finger feel because you stuck your fingers under the lid when opening. You look at him and say "I did not get bit." He says look in the box and you see its empty except for a plastic snake ad your thinking "What the hell." You look at your trainer and relies he fooled you! Or did he? He said how did the bite feel and you relies You did put your fingers under the lid and had it been real you would have been bit. You let your emotion and anxiousness get you in trouble. You relies had it been real you would now be on your way to the hospital.
You just received a very valuable lesson in never getting ahead of yourself because your so eager to see or work with an animal. The animal not going place so there is never a reason for you not to take things slow and matriculas with deliberate actions and purpose.

Fifth Grade

Your come in after that major eye opening experience and are wondering what is going to be next. I really blew it with that cage opening I could have been bit. I didn't look first to see where the animal was I didn't use proper technique in opening the cage. I was to excited about getting to work with the animal and broke every rule I had learned. You trainer looks at you and says what are you thinking about as he sees your thinking hard. You tell him and he says." You are now starting to show the maturity and thought needed to see your own mistakes so you do not make them again."
He tells you not to dwell on your mistakes but to learn from them now when they don't kill you. He says OK lets go back in the room. He points to a box and says it needs to be cleaned. You go over and look inside and see what appears to be a live snake in it, but the box is to cloudy to tell which species so you place it on a counter and pop the lid so its still on but never opened. you then reach for a small hook and open it. You had on your mind the disaster from before and do not want to risk it again especially knowing there is a live snake in this box! As you use the hook to open the box lid you see what appears to be Lataste's Viper "Vipera latastei". You are in heaven finally I get to work with a hot even if its just the repetition of taking the animal out and placing it in a safety holding container to clean the cage. You reach in with the hook carefully remove the viper and place it in the hold container. You go about cleaning the cage and changing the water. Then you replace the snake in the container and put the lid back on. As you do it you feel a sharp pain and relies you had your fingers under the lip of the lid and have been bit. You turn in a state of shock and look at your trainer and tell him you just got bit. He looks at you in a funny glare and says You were so excited to have been working with the animal you forgot that placing a lid on is just as dangerous as taking one off. Fortunately what you thought to be the Lataste's Viper "Vipera latastei" was just a very nice Solomon's Island Ground Boa "Candoia ssp". One though that looks very similar to the deadly Lataste's Viper "Vipera latastei."
Another important lesson learned today in patents and attentiveness. One that caused some pain and blood this time but at least it wasn't fatal.

Sixth Grade.

You have learned now how to clean cages, You have learned from your mistakes that not being patent and not thinking ahead can be painful if not down right deadly. You need to look back over these last six months or so and think to yourself is it worth it to proceed? Do I really want to work with animals that can with one mistake take my life or disfigure me?
At this point in your training you have learned much, you relies there is more to keeping venomous reptiles then just sticking them in a cage and throwing in food once in a while.
After reflection of what you have seen and learned you still want to proceed with your training. You know there is no substitute for safety and awareness of your surroundings and that you must always maintain a calm and collected thought train to what your doing never letting emotions dictate how you handle or work with the animals.

Just like in School you have to learn, sometimes learning is not fun and sometimes it is. Looking back over your grade school introduction to venomous reptiles you have learned the very basics ones you probably already had knowledge of. How to use a hook, how to use tongs, How to use tubes, How to clean cages. But now your trainer has forced you to use the tools more then you ever would have for your own collection of nonvenomous reptiles. He/She has taught you safety through repetition. Having a hook in your hand is now just and extension of your own hand. You are so comfortable with a hook or tong that is second nature. Your nose has developed in to a sharply tuned crap smeller. Your eyes have become safety tools for noticing things out of place or out of the ordinary. Your Brain now thinks about all places in a cage an animal can use to hide from site before you open it. Safety is always on your mind. You have learned all these things but more importantly you have developed a more mature and mental understanding of the animals and yourself.
Congratulation the elementary levels have been learned.

The Middle School

Seventh Grade

Today you walk in to and your trainer says its time for you to get to know the hot room. He says go one in and I will be there in a moment. You have learned from the past that training is never as simple as that and you open the door and look in and see on the floor a box that looks like a lid was popped open. What do you do? The box could have had a snake in it and now its out! You error on the side of caution and tell your trainer about what you just observed. He says good IM glad you didn't go in the room although I did place it there to see your reaction.
So now the two of you go in and he says today we go over the basics of a hot room. First thing is to make certain all cages are of a locking nature or secured to prevent escapes. The room itself should be completely escape proof with a locking door and any vents should be screened to prevent escape. You should know where all tools you need are located at all times and the floor kept clear of debris as well as the counter tops. A ll the cages should be properly marked and labeled to what species is in them. An emergency protocol book should be handy and all emergency numbers posted. Emergency lighting set up in case of a power outage.
Your trainer says familiarize yourself with everything in the room. He then hands you the protocol book for you to see what's in it.
A list of all species that is kept is list in this book along with the species is where they are from what their habitat is their prey and importantly the type of antivenin needed in case of a bite along with where to obtain it. All the phone numbers of other keepers in your area are listed as well as Miami Dade Fire Rescue and Poison Control. There are also papers in their on treatment for bites for each of the species kept. You notice a "DNR"order Do Not Resuscitate order and a living will. Also is the keepers full medical records. All of these things are important to have in this book in the event of a bite. They will help the hospital in better treating a bite when it occurs.

"My own DNR/LIVING WILL specifically states that I do not wish to be saved if I cannot live a high quality of life after a bite. I spelled out very specifically what I felt was quality of life. I do not wish to be a vegetable or burden on my spouse. I also states in there that only My wife and my best friend who is also a qualified paramedic and one of the finest snake keepers are to make any and all decisions on my medical care and wishes in the event IM not capable of making them. I know many hospitals are not qualified do to lack of understanding of snake bites to make these important determinations. And felt that it is best to leave those decisions in the qualified minds of people who understand venomous reptiles and what occurs post bite"

Now that you have done all this your trainer says OK we have a few cages need attention today. He pulls out some boxes and says OK your turn. You look around and see the animal at the far end of the cage and pop the lid and use a hook to lift it. Inside you see a small copperhead.
You use your hook to remove the snake and place it in a secure container and clean its cage and water it and place a small hopper in.
You then replace the snake and using the hook to slide the lid back on and push it down to secure it. You move on to the next cage and the next cage the same way checking each one first.
Finally your working with venomous species though they are small and relatively harmless copperheads at least you now getting hands on training. You are deep in to concentration of what your doing when you here a crash from behind after you just put the last box away what do you do? As you turn and relies that the rack holding the black mambas just fell! 12 baby black mambas just hit the ground. Scary prospects isn't it? At this point instinct should hopefully take in and you grab a hook along side your trainer and look to be certain all the containers are still in tact and no shoestrings of death got out. Yes, it was nerve racking but all is OK and no escapes happened. This is a very valuable lesson in calm and taking in what happened what needs to be done and how important it is that when working in a hot room to know your surroundings and tool placement and where other persons are. Inside that room your life and that of any person in it is in your hands.

Eighth Grade

A joyful time has arrived many news specimens just arrived and they need to be unpacked. Unlike when your at home and get in new animals these are venomous and deadly. So no reaching in with your hands. Your trainer explains to you that when you open each crate to be very careful as snakes might have escaped their bags. You open each box up and carefully with a hook move bags around to insure no escapes. Your trainer then uses a pair of tongs to carefully remove each bag and place it on a counter top. He tells you to prepare cages and fill a trash can with some water. You ask him why the trash can with water. He explains these animals need to soak and get rehydrated. after preparing the trash can and cages he pulls the bag flat with a pair of hemostats and places a hook securely between the knot and the snake and unties the bag. Then with the bag untied he uses two hemostats to pic up the bag and place it in the trash can to allow the animal to go directly in. Wow a Cobra.
After letting the animal soak its time to put it in the cage and put him away. Remember to label the cage so you know its a cobra or whatever species.
On to the next bag its obviously a heavy bodied animal that his huffing and puffing. You watch your trainer perform the same procedure with the hemostats and hook then see the bag jump and two very large fangs blow through the bags. You relies that had a part of anyone's body been on it they would now be envenomated by a viper. After the shock of what has happened your trainer dumps it in the trash can to soak and you see this outstanding Gaboon Viper. It should settle in how deadly this animal is and what would have happened had it bitten through the bag.
Though bags offer some protection a snake can and will bite through one and unfortunately people have been bit during this very dangerous time of unpacking animals.

Ninth Grade

After the day before and the mental and visual lessons you just learned with the knowledge someday you will be the one having to do these exact same procedures as yourself again "Is it worth it to keep venomous."
OK you know today the animals are going to need to be medicated and inspected for external parasites and quarantined from the general population. This is a very dangerous day as you know that oral medication mean dealing with the business end of the animals. You and your trainer are in the room and HE/SHE is getting out the animals for proper medications to be administered. You watch as he pins a cobra and inserts a tube in its mouth as it chomps down on the tube and venom starts flowing his fingers only inches from those fangs and a sure bite with one slip. He/She moves on to the Gaboon Viper pinning the head and as he lifts it bites down sending its own fangs through its bottom jaw missing his finger by millimeters. This is one of the nasty things a viper can do and improper placement of a finger will get you bit as sure as the sun rises in the East. One Hundred percent concentration is needed for dealing with animals on this level and an understanding of proper handling. It should be said that unless it is absolutely needed NEVER handle a venomous reptiles with your hands. Quarantine time!

Many people have asked me about quarantines, So I thought I would share what works for me. Hope it helps.

This is the method I have found to work best for the safety of myself and well being of my animals. Remember a new animal that is not QUARANTINED can bring in unwanted pest and disease that can be fatal to your entire collection.

Remember NEVER under any circumstances place a new arrival in the general population of your other animals.
This is very tempting for most people to do but the contagiousness of certain virus that reptiles can spread to one another it can prove fatal to not only the carrier species but also other species in your collection.
Also if an animal has external parasites such as Mites or Tic's these parasites do have legs and will travel to other members of your collection thus infesting the entire collection.

First thing I want to say is remember to wash your hands before and after you handle the new arrival for both your protection and the protection of the animal. I always Clean my hands with an Antibacterial Soap first then rinse with water then re-rinse with Alchol.I also use surgical gloves for handling the new arrival.

Step 1 Arrival. Inspect the container the animal has arrived in for mites, tick's and any other external parasites.

If any external parasites are present in the container it is safe to assume they are definitely on the animal. At this point I would take the animal out and put it directly in to a plastic container and throw out all the packaging material in an outside trash can. Also spray the trash can with some type of bug spray.
After the container has been disposed of I would take the snake and run warm water over it rubbing the animal as to remove as many parasites as possible.
After thoroughly rinsing the animal place it in clean bag and begin setting up its container.
For an animal that has been confirmed to have parasites I suggest using a product such as "Proven o Mite" this can be purchased offline or at a pet shop that specializes in reptiles.
I have found it best to spray the entire container and lid and allow to set for 10 minutes. Then place clean unprinted newspaper in the bottom and lightly spray again allow 10 minutes to pass then place the waterbowl and reptile in.

Step 2 Inspect the animal for any crust around the cloaca and mucus around the mouth.

If any Crust or Mucus is found it can be a sign of enteral problems such as an Upper Respiratory Infection or Fecal impactions just to name a few.
At this point It is best to get the animal directly to a Vet for treatment. " BE SURE TO KEEP ALL MEDICAL RECORDS" I will explain why later.

Step 3 Place the snake in a new clean Bag and take to Veterinarian.
Do this regardless if the animal looks healthy upon arrival. There can be problems that only a vet can detect through X-ray or his knowledge of reptiles.

Step 4 After the vet has given the snake a clean bill of health take the animal and put it in a sterile plastic box with paper for substrate.
Again I still recommend using the "Provent o Mite " just in case the animal had parasitic eggs that were missed.

Step 5 on the 7th day feed the animal.
I advise waiting the 7 days as to allow the animal to acclimate and adjust to its new environment and settle from any stresses the animal may have had.
Feedings will of course vary on animal and species so a best rule is to use your knowledge of the species you are working with.

Step 6 on the 30th day take the snake to the Vet for another health check.
Again keep all records of these transactions.


Remember you must clean the tank and waterbowl every day of the quarantine period. I always use the 90 day quarantine method for safety and health of my collection.

I suggest using a dishwasher for the cleaning of the quarantine tank, water bowl and food dish.

I understand this seams to be an extreme amount of work and detail but if you have a large collection the cost of not being careful in monetary value can be in the Thousands of dollars. Now think of the psychological impact on you and your family at the loss of a pet.
In my opinion the cost and time taken to protect both you and your animal is well worth it in the long run. Keeping in mind these animals can lead a long and productive life if taken care of properly from day one.

Now as to why keep all vet records. It is sad to say but their are dishonest persons in the business of selling reptiles. If you do aquire an animal that has ANY problems immediately e-mail the person you purchased the animal from. Keep all records of E-mails from the original agreement to purchase to any problems you have had. If the person is reputable they should be willing to help you with the cost of your vet bill or credit you to purchases in the future. Keep in mind that just because they have a Terms of Service" TOS" does not mean you do not have recourse. Many states now have laws regarding selling animals not in quality health. These are know as Lemon Laws and are enforceable.
However in all fairness reptiles if not cared for can have health issues surface very rapidly at no fault of the seller. If you have a Vet check immediately it will prevent most problems you may have if there are any signs of ill health.

Again the same applies to Pet Shops if that is where you purchased from, Despite some of them trying to tell you they have a NO refund or Health guarantee there are some legal precedence that you can use in certain states if they sold you a lemon. Also Pet Store Employee's are for the most part there to play with the animals and in many cases have little or no practical knowledge. Do your research first and do not let them tell you falsehoods or myths.

Reptiles if not cared for properly can and will go down hill fast. It is your obligation to them to Know everything possible before even purchasing one. You must be able to also properly care for the animal once you have received it.


High School

Tenth Grade

Wow its been 8 months of learning and seeing things that should make you stop and think a few hundred times if its worth it to keep venomous reptiles.
At this point you should be able to clean cages and work the tools like they have always been part of your body. You should have and instinct about you that heads of danger where the average person would not see it. You have developed a since of awareness of your surroundings and a calm about you and deliberate action when working with the animals.
You should be working now with the species you wish to own and reading about them constantly. Contacting other keepers and asking questions about the animal/animals. Your trainer should be instructing you on the fine points of the husbandry of the species.

Eleventh Grade

Time to start the at homework. Setting up your hotroom, Getting your cage ready. With the cage don't skimp out and get cheap you have spent almost a year of your life now studying and learning about the animal. With so much time already dedicated to this get them a nice cage. Take the time to set it up nice with hidden hide boxes water dishes lighting and "LOCKS," be sure to get your emergency protocol set up and start contacting local hospitals and find a doctor who will be willing to treat you if your bit with knowledge. Take the time to set an appointment with him and give him a copy of your protocol book and discuss it fully and always keep him updated on what species you keep. Inform the local fire department as well in case they are ever needed. It is also a good idea to meet your local police officers and let them know as well. Some may ask why your telling them but if a 911 call goes out many times police respond or if your out of town and your house is broken in to they will be responding. If the criminals have let out a venomous reptile you don't want the officer to get bit. Being responsible is a major part of hot keeping and that extends to person who may have to enter your house in an emergency.

The Senior Graduation.
Now is time to look back one last time and reflect on everything you have seen and the inherit dangers of working with venomous snakes. Ask yourself one last time is it worth it?
After 1 year and accumulating 1000 hours of training "I use Florida's permitting system" it is time to get you permit. You need to have documented proof of One full year at least with dates and times of area/areas you received your training. You need to have documented proof of 1000 hours minimum to accompany that year signed off by your trainer. You must have two letters of recommendation as well and be able to provide proof and knowledge in the Care, Feeding, Handling and Husbandry. All this has to be in triplicate and sent to Tallahassee for review.
After they review it they forward on to their field officers for an inspection of your premises. If all goes well you will now be mailed your venomous reptile license" VRL".

This is by no way meant to be a training guide for anyone. It is merely some of what a person might go through if they wish to obtain a venomous reptile. Proper training is crucial for safety. I used the school mentality as it is a simple way to keep tabs of a process.

Scott Bice

[Campbellvenomou]

Excellent Post Scott!

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Nicely put, Scot. How much time do you have on your hands on an average day? Seemingly though, with all these posts on being trained that Ive been seeing everywhere makes me wonder exactly how many of us were actually trained before we got into this. I know I wasn't because of my dislike of many hot keepers and my methods of keeping don't seem to be liked by many others. That's just a quick head start on the subject though. Were you trained Scot? Riley? Josh? The other keeper I dont know? Or did you just descover your own methods and played along developing your own ideas on the subject? Xain

[Mustangrde1]

Xain before moving to FL I kept Native CA hots. Unfortunately 15 years ago there wasnt to many keeping them that would talk about it let alone train. I had to learn by hands on trile and error. After moving to FL i had to be trained under the laws and after that wish I would have had a trainer in the beggining. Someone with experiance to train me in the beggining would have made life easier and safer.

[jay72]

I think that Florida has excellant laws regarding attaining a VR license. 1000 hours and a year might seem like a lot but it is almost a necesity. It took me about a year and a half to get my license working under my mentor who runs a wildlife facility with a Hot collection ranging from adult Malaysian King Cobras, Russells Vipers, Black, Green and Jamesons Mambas, etc. Every day there was a learning experience. It was over an hour drive, but that is how dedicated I was/am. I believe that the Fl laws help to ensure that more dedicated people will be obtaining VR permits through the stringent process.

Sloane Russeck

[Mustangrde1]

I do firmly believe in training. After all you would not put a person in a car on a freeway and say here you drive. Some things need to be done and done right with some type of guidance. We get to much bad press from bites so is it to much to say to people you are required to be trained. Who knows with that mentality perhaps states that currently don't allow hot keeping may reconcider and say "OK" if you get trained and show proof of it we will allow it. We have to be the ones to show the maturity and responciblity to them first.

[Campbellvenomou]

I was lucky enough Zane that I had friends much older than I into herps. It was from these "old Schoolers" I learned quite a bit. Granted it was not a structured learning, nor was I prohibited from keeping what I wanted, but through watching them, collecting with them, trading with them and just "talking shop" I can say I had "training" of sorts. I learned quite a bit hands on, and I wish so much of what I learned the hard way could have been prevented through tutorial stewardship under a more strict guideance regimine...
Is it possible to just start keeping hots? Frankly, yes. Do people who just decide to keep them all turn out to be idiots or losers? No. That said, most that just start keeping hots without the bennefit of guideance from experienced keepers spend quite a bit of time reinventing the wheel, missing aspects that took some of us a long time to figure out, all of which are not nessecary. Places like these forums become training grounds of sorts, whether we mean for them to be or not. The simple fact of the matter is the information accessed here offers guidance of a sort. We offer knowledge, help, and viewpoints. Hopefully we offer directions for you to go to gain more insight first hand.

[cobraman]

Thank God I got my VR permit prior to all the current regs. Scott, after reading all that, if I did not already have my permit, I would not want one
Blessings and Happy New Year to you all
Ray Hunter

[Mustangrde1]

Oh come on Ray I dont think I could picture you without a hot someplace.. Now If it were needed for monitors that would be diffrent.. Parking lot + Savannah + Ray = funny

[cobraman]

2 January 2004 9:54 pm

TO ALL OF YOU WHO HAVE RESPONDED TO THE KINGSNAKE FORUM ON GETTING RID OF "VENOMOIDS" I THANK YOU VERY MUCH

PLEASE READ MY ARTICLE BELOW

WE HAVE A REAL CHANCE TO RID OURSELVES OF THIS DISGUSTING NUISANCE AT THIS TIME

I WILL DO ALL IN MY POWER TO GET US SEPARATE FROM THEM

I AM WILLING TO FIGHT THE FIGHT

LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK, THANKS HANK MOLT



NO VENOMOIDS HERE

Why my vociferous and ultra aggressive campaign against "venomoid" and, in my opinion, horribly mutilated reptiles ?

First and foremost, so-called "venomoid" reptiles are the MOST DANGEROUS reptiles in herpetoculture today: they pose the greatest risk to those of us involved in serious venomous herpetoculture and can easily have a negative spill over effect on all of herpetoculture in general.

Let's look at the facts. The acquisition of a "venomoid" snake is pretty much an "entry level" phenomena. It is most often a young and totally inexperienced person who wants to be able to "handle" and "show off" his new snake. At the shows where some vendors sell these disfigured creatures, the first question I overhear from a prospective purchaser is, "can I handle it ?" The question begs the obvious answer. "Of course you can handle it Dude" replies the vendor, quickly sizing up his inexperienced customer and salivating about the imminent prospect of procuring about 3 times what a normal non "venomoid" snake of the same species would fetch. I have actually seen a vendor then snatch a "venomoid" 30 inch Green Mamba from it's tiny plastic salad container (despite the crowd of people pressed up against his table) and with ridiculous bravado, place the exhausted serpent around his neck. Often the black stitch threads are still dangling from the disfigured head. Pretty impressive. And yes, there are these road kill guys who purchase this trash. Can you imagine spending $400. for a skinny 30 inch Green Mamba with threads protruding from its caved-in head. It just looks like some worn out Green Vine Snake. And, most important, it is really no longer a real Mamba: it is just a half-snake that has had some grotesque procedures done on it and then used to procure money from ignorant collectors better off not in herpetoculture. So, the initial attraction is pretty obvious: profit seeker at all costs meets wanna be macho man, and there you have the perfect recipe for trouble.

But why are "venomoid" snakes really dangerous?

First of all, "venomoid" snakes can breed and produce fully lethal offspring. People who obtain venomoid snakes are often tempted to keep them in a state or jurisdiction which prohibits venomous snakes by species. There are no provisions for the keeping of "venomoid" = (mechanically altered) venomous species in any of those jurisdictions. The owners of these grotesque anomalies somehow justify their flaunting of the law as acceptable since their snake is not "technically" venomous. This illegal behavior, when discovered and prosecuted, only results in more and more excessively restrictive laws against the entire herp community.

Secondly, there is always the chance of an imperfect procedure in rendering the snake "harmless" and with so many more people attempting this all the time, it is probably only a matter of time until there is a partial "venomoid" out there. Also, it would be conceivable for someone in desperate financial straits to sell or fraudulently represent a snake as venomoid when in fact it is not. Either of the above scenarios could produce tragic consequences to the parties involved. "Venomoids" appeal mostly to the young and very inexperienced, often first time collectors. These are the people most likely to attempt their own crude procedures at rendering a specimen "venomoid" that would result in the death of the snake, or even worse, the incomplete removal of all the venom delivering apparatus, leaving the snake still potentially lethal.

And third, and to me the most serious problem with "venomoid" snakes, is the very real possibility of these reptiles being taken out into the public. It would be pretty tempting for an irresponsible person, wanting to up stage his buddy who took his Albino Python to the Mall, to take his "venomoid" 5 foot Albino Cobra to the park, mall, school or a party to impress his friends. The situation could quickly deteriorate into a confrontation with authorities and another snake incident makes the headlines. The town council won't care if the snake is "venomiod." It is a Cobra, it is illegal to possess, was in public and scared people. It doesn't take rocket science to see where this can lead: more and more prohibitions against all reptiles.

And for what? A venomoid snake is no longer venomous. Why the attraction? It is just a snake and a pretty pathetic one at that. What can possibly be the motivation to own such an expensive mutilated creature. If your needs are that macho, get a big Burmese Python or Water Monitor to impress your friends.

Some very lame excuses. I have had very few responses to this article from pro-venomoid collectors ( hopefully it is because there are so few of them - even one is too many ) but one thread runs common in their defense of venomoids and is as follows. They all have claimed that working with a venomoid snake will give them experience for the time when they graduate to keeping a real venomous snake. Bullshit. The fatal flaw in this jaundiced reasoning is that there is no "What if." Without "what if" you cannot gain any experience. The definition of experience (according to Hank Molt) is: what you get when you don't get what you want. Consider the following hypothetical situation. If a person is working with a venomoid 7 foot Black Mamba and for some reason that snake gets an opportunity to escape or get into a highly compromised situation the handler can, at last resort grab the snake with his hand to prevent the escape. With a real Mamba no such opportunity presents: you have to have an alternate plan. Why: because what if it bit you? The venomoid dude is safe because there is no what if. If he makes a mistake it is always reversible. There is no consequence. How can you gain any experience when you can always resort to a practice that could be fatal in a situation with the real snake? Also there is much more to this than many people can readily see. 30 years ago Joe Laszlo and I would get freshly imported wild caught Black Mambas, Boomslangs, Puff Adders, King Cobras and Spitting Cobras straight in from the bush. These creatures were decidedly different from most of today's available venomous snakes which are captive produced animals. Captive produced reptiles are a very good thing: but the point is that we had to learn to deal with these snakes as highly aggressive wild caught adults without the luxury of all of today's sophisticated hooks, baggers, etc. All we had were a pair of Pilstrom Tongs (which were only there as a last resort) as we new these could easily damage a wildly thrashing snake. We had to make our own hooks and we had to get these snakes into garbage cans to soak them; and to remove ticks we invented tubes, etc. In short, we found ways by long hours and hard work to safely handle these wonderful creatures and to not get bitten and to not harm the reptiles. To say that you can gain any real experience from working with venomoid snakes is total hogwash. It would be like saying you could learn to drive an Indy race car by playing video race car driving DVDs on your home computer. Absolute Total Bullshit!!

A second pathetic claim I hear is that the technology now exists to safely remove the venom apparatus in sterile surroundings and is often accomplished by a license vet. A tidy hygienic procedure. What they are really saying is that they have found a more efficient way to do a bad thing. Hitler invented concentration camps to exterminate millions of people. It was very efficient. Sterile procedures? Kiss my ***!!

As I see this debate play out on the forums I can only conclude that these die-hard venomoid collectors can never be converted. Stop trying. They are afraid of venomous snakes and we should not waste our time on these people any longer. All we can do is to persistently petition the host of the websites to remove them from our presence. We deal in venomous snakes and they deal in venomoids: it is as different as prime steak and used condoms. We must insist on separate representation. Wouldn't it be cool to see the venomoid classifieds with all 5 or 6 of the big time guys advertising their damaged goods. Who knows, maybe someday they will have their own Expo - if they can find a facility large enough to accommodate all the thousands of reptile enthusiasts who would flock from far and near to gaze upon their unfortunate mutilated creatures. Seriously, let's really make a concerted effort to rid these people from our midst.

Fortunately only a few reptile dealers still sell "venomoid" snakes. At the last few shows I have attended 3 major dealers have advised me that they have quit selling them all together. And at every show I attend by far the majority of serious venomous collectors express their total outrage against "venomoids".

I have been in the reptile business for more than 38 years and it is inconceivable to me how anyone could even think of performing such a horrific procedure on such magnificent creatures. For the most part I deal with very serious collectors, people who breed Bushmasters, Rattlesnakes, rare Tree Vipers, Helodermas and other exquisite venomous reptiles. To a person, these serious collectors disdain the "venomoid" sector and hold them in total contempt. Thankfully those who collect "venomoids" are in the tiny minority but they still pose a real threat to all of us in serious herpetoculture.

I personally rarely come into contact with "venomoid" reptiles or those who keep them except for the few shows that I attend that still permit the sale of these mutilated reptiles. It is a free country and if those collectors want to mutilate their reptiles that is their business. My position is my personal opinion and everyone is entitled to pursue their own ways.

However, my goal is to see US totally separate from THEM.

The "venomoid" crowd should have their own forums, classifieds and get meetings. If you agree, please let me know so that I can approach those in charge of various shows, as well as advertising sources and information forums, to express our need for total non-involvement with the "venomoid" practitioners. Thanks.




Hank Molt Reptiles

[jay72]

When I first read that on Hanks website I emailed him to compliment him on taking a major stance on this subject.
I would also like to compliment all of the dealers who stopped dealing in voids even though they lost money doing so. I would only buy snakes from these dealers and I would never buy anything from any dealer who still sells voids. If more people would take that stance than maybe some of these dealers would get the picture.

I think that at every venomous show there should be information sheets educating people on this discusting practice. I feel that the Hot community should do everything it can to separate itself from people selling and buying voids. I know that I would have no problem donating money to some sort of fund that would put out more educational material.

Hank also did a great piece on rattlesnake roundups. If I can find it I will post it.

Sloane Russeck

[oreganus]

Ray, you just posted that e-mail from Hank Molt (IF it really was from Hank Molt) as a stab at me! That is the most childish e-mail about venomoids I have ever seen. I saw all the posts that scott had on this site with pictures of himself playing with some of his venomoids, then he pretends he is against them. Is that how you got your "TRAINING" scott? That just proves my point. You take pictures of yourself holding venomoid cobras, then BS everyone by telling us it was a unaltered snake, then pretend you are against venomoids. All the crap you put in you "trining" posts is silly. Stop being two faced, and stop lying to everyone.
Kevin Smith (YES, The REAL ONE)

[Mustangrde1]

Oh look whos back hey J try updating yourself on the new laws in florida reguarding internet harassment before you go to far... And pay your ticket for the scarlets...

[Mustangrde1]

Let me clarify it for you.... Oh and as you have seen fit to steel another person identity that of Kevin Smith he two can have you prosicuted under this law, Two very clear cases i believe can be made. So under the Law I am advising you for myself to NEVER contact me or reply to anything I write or say.

http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/ind...48.HTM&Title=->2002->Ch0784->Section%20048

[jay72]

That post was originally on Hank Molts old website. I am sure if you would email him he would provide it for you.

Kevin, lets not start trouble on this site.

Sloane Russeck