View Full Version : The yellow rat snake that may enjoy some human contact.
My girlfriend has a yellow rat snake. Quite by accident I have encountered some behaviours I am unfamiliar with and that research online and in published materials has not been particularly useful.
Lily (the snake) seems to enjoy when I gently touch the top of his back with small, circular motions. The two unusual behaviours are:
1. he will often arch his back up toward my finger. I can slowly pull it away about an inch (2.5 cm) and he will follow with his arched back. I have considered that this may be a negative reaction intended to push me away but his normal reaction to unwanted stimuli is to retreat into his 'burrow' made from PVC piping. If this is a negative response then it is an unusual one compared to all the other times he doesn't like something and wants to get away.
2. he sometimes begin moving in a very jerky fashion, with sudden and repeated twitchy, even convulsive motions. He maintains his interest in the touch and tends to not recoil when it investigates and realizes that the source is human. Once he even slid two thirds of his body off of his perch and onto my hand.
In both of the above situations, the snake is in his cage and is interested in the source of the stimulus. His normal reaction to human touch is to investigate and then recoil slightly, as though the realization of a human actor is unwanted or disgusting. Almost as though he had his hopes up for something more pleasing than anything a human can offer.
I realize that many sorts of snakes den communally, will follow each others scents, and are capable of positive interaction when it is their mating season. For example, snakes with elevated testosterone levels have been shown to defensively strike less often. My present hypothesis is that this may be evidence of some sort of contact that this and other snakes enjoy. I am not the only person to have taken this sort of possibility into account since similarly positive behaviours have been noted by others, though they have been noted very rarely.
I am both reporting this odd behaviour to the herp community and asking for its interpretations. Thank you ahead of time for any insights or suggestions you may provide.
Starbuck
05-30-13, 03:58 AM
My honduran milk snake will arch her back when touched in her viv. I have never interpreted it as a positive reaction to stimuli, i think it is entirely defensive, similar to a cat flattening its ears, etc.
Thank you Starbuck. It is quite possible that it is some sort of defensive reaction, or at least a negative social reaction.
Dog trainers frequently note that dogs communicate both positive and negative social messages through bodily gestures. Cats also use social body language to communicate both positive and negative emotional reactions. Snakes may well do the same.
At least some snakes use scent and/or pheromone trails to follow one another from work done in Narcisse, Manitoba, Canada. Pheromone trails are used to ensure that the thousands of garter snakes coming out of their shared, communal winter dens do not get run over by traffic by luring the snakes through underpasses instead.
Snakes may also use body language to communicate as well as olfactory methods. Snakes are capable of positive as well as negative social queues so it is reasonable to assume that snakes may push against an annoying source of physical stimulation, perhaps similar to the way that the males of some species "wrestle" with one another for dominance. The problem arises when negative social queues for physical reactions are the only interpretations available.
We know that snakes can engage in physical activities that they desire. Both feeding and mating are good examples of snakes expressing positive emotional states in physical ways. It makes sense then that snakes should exhibit both positive and negative responses.
As people who have taken animals into our homes it is our responsibility to ensure that they live lives as happy and comfortable as we can afford. This is the exact opposite of animal abuse; we endeavour to provide a positive life for our animals, as free as possible from stresses and deprivation. Due to this goal it follows that we become more successful caretakers if we can find out what the animal enjoys.
Starbuck, have you found any stimulus or circumstance that you think your animals like? The same question goes out to anyone else who reads this thread.
Sometimes I will gently rub Lestat (my eldest male bp) on top of his head in circular motions and massage behind his neck and along his back and he will just sit there and fall asleep, sometimes flick his tongue towards me and then rest back down and enjoy the massage :) If he didn't like it he would have moved his head or started to slither away.
I think that many snakes enjoy being touched in a non-threatening way by us, once they understand what it is anyway (ie. learn we are not predators). Some of mine seem to enjoy a little 'massage'. Some also get VERY relaxed when I sit with them in a hammock or rocking chair...to the point that some otherwise feisty & unapproachable ones become mellow. As Cory posted above, I believe we owe our pets the best conditions we can manage, and incidentally, the good vibes affect us positively as well...it's a 'win-win' IMO. (Cory, I also don't doubt that some snakes, when touched the right way, were hoping for a mate instead of us, LOL! And if you watch snakes mate this really makes sense, at least to me. I have 2.2 yellow ratsnakes, btw.)
That "convulsive twitching & jerky motions" is another matter: I have often observed this behavior when two snakes (same kind) are put together, and I believe it is a signal to the other that "hey, I'm not prey, I'm a snake like you!", and I occasionally get the same response from one of my snakes when they are touched by me. I also have tried to imitate the same movements back to them (when/if they start doing that) & they seem to calm down, satisfied that I'm not there to eat them? There is also the defensive shove that some snakes do, when they don't want to deal with you or be picked up (& don't wish to bite) but it's quite different from those jerky/twitchy motions, & hard to misinterpret.
I've met plenty of ppl who call me anthropomorphic and think snakes are mindless creatures...I think it's sad they've made their minds up & miss what's really there... You can communicate with your pets if you remember their best senses, scent & touch, & keep an open mind...try to imagine from their viewpoint.
Ever notice what happens if you flick your tongue back at your snake when they are close enough to see the motion? (I'm not above looking silly but don't do this in public, LOL!) They appear to keep responding... In the course of taking in w/c snakes, I've made a point of doing everything I could to reduce what surely is their terror of being in captivity & near us...and my anecdotal evidence that it helps is that they feed & do well with me.
smy_749
05-30-13, 01:43 PM
Lol wow, very scientific post possum!
You guys dont realize that these are snakes, not humans. You say you do, but by your posts you clearly don't. Snakes aren't domesticated like your dogs and cats. They don't have a human brain, which means they have stuff we don't, and lack stuff we have. If you haven't intensely studied the human brain, and the brains of other vertebrates including squamata, then don't comment based on your intellect, because your intellect and thinking from a snakes point of view garbage is exactly that in the world of science, garbage. show me hard scientific facts to back claims.
Our snakes do not like us.....period.
Speaking of snakes enjoying human contact, here's a funny but true story: a 'celibate' male rosy boa I kept for many years liked to snuggle around my neck while I did dishes or other light activity...(I know "don't let snakes wrap around your neck for safety"...but male rosy boas, for those who don't know, don't exceed 30"...pretty much 'scarf size' and harmless) Anyway, one night I could feel his spurs scraping my neck & realized with some degree of surprise & amusement that he was "flirting" with me! (that's what they use their spurs for) My best guess is that he was feeling my pulse in my neck & perhaps was responding partly to that? (-thought I was nudging him?) I also had a female rosy boa and I have to wonder if he was picking up a few molecules of her scent and putting "2 + 2 together", very optimistically? LOL
Lol wow, very scientific post possum!....
I knew you'd be along to argue...LOL I do not discount science at all, but scientists also miss things. I can give you specifics, but you'll only argue? (my best friend IS a scientist...& over the years keeping many snakes himself, we are on the same page, fyi)
Starbuck
05-30-13, 02:07 PM
honestly, I am hard pressed to think of a situation in which my snakes appear to enjoy my presence.
My female king becomes extremely alert when someone walks by, and even more so when her cage is opened, but her reaction to then bite ANYTHING that then enters the cage (hook or hand) reinforces that she is just conditioned to think it might be food. It is only after she has been hooked and removed from the cage that she stops having a feed response to every touch; but there is absolutely nothing to make me think she either likes or dislikes being out of her viv. She explores a bit, but she explores her viv as well.
My male king actively dislikes being removed from his viv, and will musk a good deal of the time. Once out and being handled, he calms down, but remains nervous and very keyed into his surroundings. With him, i am 100% certain he would rather never get handled and would be perfectly happy to eat, poop, and sleep his days away untouched. Just because he doesnt react negatively (by bring, hissing, etc) doesnt mean i think he reacts positively.
I prefer to think of most of my snakes reactions as blind curiosity. They will always investigate any environment they are put into, and i think they can interpret is as bad or not bad (good temp/bad temp, humid/not humid, etc) but i do not think they enjoy it or seek it out. I do think they can be conditioned to responses; this is why my female king gets excited when i open her cage (food), or why they calm down when removed form the viv by the hook, or why the ones getting injections (antibiotics) tense up when placed on the counter for their shot.
It isnt such a large jump to say they can be conditioned to respond to a touch; (think female snakes becoming more receptive when the male rests his head on her back), but i believe it IS a large jump to confer an emotion connected to this response.
Our snakes do not like us.....period.
translation: your snakes don't like you
translation: your snakes don't like you
Yeah...I'm pretty positive yours don't like you as well...
;)
..... show me hard scientific facts to back claims.
Don't need to...this is a forum, remember? And last I checked, you don't own it? Why are you SO afraid of new ideas & other's opinions and experience? You "circle the wagons" every time with childish personal attacks like this is WWIII.
I will add though, that it's much easier to treat animals (any kind) like an unthinking commodity and keep them in minimal conditions (think puppy mill?) for their lifespan and for your amusement and maybe profit if you can remain convinced (and perhaps convince others?) that it has has no real brain or "feelings"...so the more you rant at me, the more I wonder how humanely you keep things.
smy_749
05-30-13, 03:06 PM
Don't need to...this is a forum, remember? And last I checked, you don't own it? Why are you SO afraid of new ideas & other's opinions and experience? You "circle the wagons" every time with childish personal attacks like this is WWIII.
I will add though, that it's much easier to treat animals (any kind) like an unthinking commodity and keep them in minimal conditions (think puppy mill?) for their lifespan and for your amusement and maybe profit if you can remain convinced (and perhaps convince others?) that it has has no real brain or "feelings"...so the more you rant at me, the more I wonder how humanely you keep things.
I'm afraid of stupidity. It's contagious and I don't want newcomers to catch it from you. Your right, it is easier to treat them like unthinking commodities and in minimal conditions, so which member does that? You think the only reason people like me, aaron, whoever else thinks they don't like us, keeps them for profit? What do you keep your animals for? Because they love you and you don't want to break their hearts? Or to observe them for your own amusement? Or do you breed them to repopulate the population and save planet earth? I didn't say it has no real brain or feelings, I said it doesn't have what you think it has, because you seem to have never opened a book and read anything on the matter.
I'm afraid of people who say the snake enjoy's his contact (around his neck) and uses it as a proof that they enjoy his company, and at the end discredits himself saying he probably smelled a female and was just confused.
Oh, your friend is a scientist so YOU must understand the physiology of all things reptile? And again with the " kept snakes for many years " thing.....
Enlighten me with your specifics please, not from your own mouth, but scientific facts. We are all aware that scientists get things wrong, but its not any reason to lose your marbles and think of any theory that comes to mind without understanding anything and having no foundation in the knowledge required to come up with those theories .
smy_749: Well speaking of stupid...stop putting words in my mouth. The rosy boa was comfortable around my neck...I do not think he was actually attracted to me (duh?) therefore as I said, I assumed that maybe he caught some scent from the female rosy? who knows...this thread is about observations of snakes with humans...clearly you have nothing to add but hostility. How pathetic.
smy_749
05-30-13, 04:28 PM
Where did I say he was attracted to you? You said I put words in your mouth, then said I said something which I didn't.....Do you realize how stupid that is? You did however say more than once that he was enjoyed cuddling, enjoyed being touched, snakes enjoying human contact, liked to snuggle around your neck, (in another thread liked to snuggle while you watch an entire movie) .....
And your evidence is that they feed and do well? The people who put snakes in tubs with papertowels and heat have snakes that feed and do well.....Nice evidence.
One last thing because I don't want to drag this thread on too long....Just incase you decide to edit anything ;-) Copy pasted from your posts...
"your snakes don't like you"
"Speaking of snakes enjoying human contact"
"male rosy boa I kept for many years liked to snuggle around my neck"
Oh, this is a good one..
"realized with some degree of surprise & amusement that he was "flirting" with me! "
"I think that many snakes enjoy being touched in a non-threatening way by us,"
"Some of mine seem to enjoy a little 'massage'"
And my favorite
"The only snake I have that TOTALLY sits still & cuddles for hours watching a movie is my 7+ foot boa (BCI)"
No matter what people tell me I still know and believe that snakes can express themselves through affection. No, they aren't humans, dogs or cats, but remember, people used to think that of them as well. Now look at how "stupid" they are for thinking such things.
No limbic system in reptilian brain= no affection/attachment..
We are just a big warm blob that occasionally will elevate them out of their enclosure.
smy_749
05-30-13, 07:30 PM
No matter what people tell me I still know and believe that snakes can express themselves through affection. No, they aren't humans, dogs or cats, but remember, people used to think that of them as well. Now look at how "stupid" they are for thinking such things.
Cats and dogs have been domesticated over centuries, maybe thousands of years. And again, please don't compare the brain of a cat or a dog to that of a reptile, apples and oranges. I can't say it enough. Do spiders feel affection towards owners as well? They also have brains...
Again like I said, if in the future, something is discovered scientifically proving your claims, than fine, I'm all aboard. However based on what we currently know, I'm not convinced in the slightest. How are you going to prove to me that hes not concerned simply with his own safety? With warm? With whatever....
If your snake was hungry, and big enough to eat you, you wouldn't be seeing any affection.
If anyone here has proof that there snake truly enjoys his company, and can say for sure that he isn't worried about himself and his own well being, please post it here, I'd like to here it. Rubbing your snakes head and it feels nice...sure thats great, maybe its true (I don't think so but who knows), how does this prove affection as well? I can get a massage from the therapist down the street and enjoy it, but I don't think I'm in love with the therapist down the street. Make sense?
KORBIN5895
05-30-13, 08:42 PM
Stupidity reigns.....
No limbic system in reptilian brain= no affection/attachment..
We are just a big warm blob that occasionally will elevate them out of their enclosure.
If that's true then why do they remain tame* & without constant reinforcement? (*and yes, I'm talking about my experience here, since those of you who don't believe they have any 'smarts' predictably don't fare as well in the handling department.) See, I think there's a correlation between our attitudes and theirs. That's my opinion, don't bother getting your panties in a bunch over it.
Aaron_S
05-30-13, 09:06 PM
If that's true then why do they remain tame* & without constant reinforcement? (*and yes, I'm talking about my experience here, since those of you who don't believe they have any 'smarts' predictably don't fare as well in the handling department.) See, I think there's a correlation between our attitudes and theirs. That's my opinion, don't bother getting your panties in a bunch over it.
I'm not going to go far into this debate but because I'm really trying not to get into any.
BUT...it IS true. Just because you don't want to go do some research or back up your claims doesn't mean you have any sort of leg to stand on at this point. Science has proven you wrong...when it proves you right, then we can discuss your opinion.
I'd say they stay "tame" because they don't consider us a threat or a food item. That's entirely the reason.
I don't handle my snakes very much. I have ones that can tolerate tons of handling, some that tolerate a little and very few that tolerate none. All are kept the same and fed the same. Some just see me as a threat, others don't.
My attitude doesn't change with any of them, yet some were as calm as can be from babies and some were not.
For the record, I don't get why the people that believe the current facts are "close minded". Shouldn't YOU be open minded that you're just wrong and that in OUR readings we discovered this?
I'm afraid of stupidity. It's contagious and I don't want newcomers to catch it from you....
smy_749: I truly hope you are as young as you seem? You always resort to name-calling & hostile rants when you disagree with someone...I hope eventually you learn how to exchange differing opinions without all the drama. As you mature, you'll find the world is chock-full of ppl with views different from yours, and tolerance & civilized communication really do come in handy. Not to mention that reality or truth has a way of being revised again and again.
SnakeyJay
05-31-13, 01:12 AM
If that's true then why do they remain tame* & without constant reinforcement? (*and yes, I'm talking about my experience here, since those of you who don't believe they have any 'smarts' predictably don't fare as well in the handling department.)
Well that's a funny one... I'm a full believer in the FACT that reptilian brains do not support the ability to form these emotions, and yet I haven't been bitten by any of my snakes so far in 4 years.
My gf has been bitten so that throws out the argument that my snakes aren't inclined to bite anyway. Yesterday I had to open my male boas mouth too have a look, I released him while still handling him and he didn't bite. Does this mean he loves me and enjoys me handling him?
smy_749
05-31-13, 04:27 AM
Sometimes the word stupid is necessary. Whether mice are more nutritious or rats are : not neccessary.
Whether your snake enjoys cuddling and snuggling to a good movie or not: necessary.
You have tried again and again to prove your knowledge by stating your number of snakes, number of years, and number of cuddles. Give it a rest before you go further and say your snakes flirt with you....oh wait.
Reminds me of a certain varanid keeper who thinks observing his captive bred varanids in a box tells him about the outback.
KORBIN5895
05-31-13, 05:31 AM
Smy, please play nice with the other children. Apparently his cognitive skills are far superior to 99.9999999999999999% of all scientists ( remember his scientist friend agrees with him).
Lankyrob
05-31-13, 05:41 AM
If your snake is so warm and cuddly try an experiment. On a nice warm day suitable for your particular snake go out into the wood with it, put it on the ground and leave it for five minutes and then call it back, if it comes to you without you approaching it or tempting it with food then i will believe your claims............
smy_749
05-31-13, 05:58 AM
If that's true then why do they remain tame* & without constant reinforcement? (*and yes, I'm talking about my experience here, since those of you who don't believe they have any 'smarts' predictably don't fare as well in the handling department.) See, I think there's a correlation between our attitudes and theirs. That's my opinion, don't bother getting your panties in a bunch over it.
I've only kept one snake with a serious attitude. Albino cali king that bit everything for no reason. Other than that all my snake have always ranges from tolerant to cuddly/snuggly/lovey dovey.
And I only handle my reptiles when I'm doing cage maintenance of some sort, or checking up on them.
Tame and domesticated go hand in hand usually, according to most dictionaries. Care to explain how snakes are domesticated as well? Or if you dont agree , fine, explain to me why some wild caught snakes are 'tame' enough not to bite. WILD snakes. Your snakes remain tame without constant reinforcement has nothing to do with how much they enjoy your company. Seeing a wild snake that isnt nippy destroys your whole taming idea, unless you think jungle people tame them when nobodies looking. Some snakes are bitey, some like to eat, some are chill, and some are schizo. Some will learn to calm down because they arent being eaten , but thats as far as it goes.
How many rattlesnakes mambas and cobras have you tamed and watched TV with? Or are hots incapable of feeling? Practice what you preach and show me your tame vipers, they have brains too
That's my opinion, don't bother getting your panties in a bunch over it.
my panties remain "bunch-less"...
however, if you want an animal to form attachment, get a mammal.
TheSuppishOne
05-31-13, 10:17 AM
No limbic system in reptilian brain= no affection/attachment..
We are just a big warm blob that occasionally will elevate them out of their enclosure.
I'm perfectly okay with this. Though I might add to it...
We are just a big, non-threatening, warm blob that occasionally will elevate them out of their enclosure and give them food.
I think they can perceive threat/predator or not, and if they eventually recognize our heat signature or scent as a "comfortable" one, that is all the affection I need.
I would like to thank those of you who have posted appropriate responses to my initial question. They have been valuable to read and I now see patterns of behaviour that are similar to the ones I posted about.
Sadly, many of these same posts bear personal attacks and all too frequently insults have come up. I was under the impression that such invectives were not to be tolerated on this website, but evidence to the contrary is ample. There is no cause for me to address each one, particularly because there are so many. Hopefully, though, this situation can be addressed and corrected so that a sense of community and information sharing can be enhanced. I have asked the administrators for their assistance in this matter.
I continue to encourage anyone who has any reports of behaviours or interactions that snakes seem to experience in a positive way, and/or interpretations of these phenomena, to share them on this thread, please. My goal is to make the captive lives of snakes less stressful and more pleasant for them and to encourage those people who keep snakes to have a higher rate of behavioural success with them. If this is from a viewpoint of "love, fine. If it is from the perspective of classic conditioning, fine. The same goes for any viewpoint. The evidence, anecdotal or not, is much appreciated and I hope will go toward improving the lives of snakes and their keepers.
Thank you,
Cory
Aaron_S
05-31-13, 02:42 PM
I would like to thank those of you who have posted appropriate responses to my initial question. They have been valuable to read and I now see patterns of behaviour that are similar to the ones I posted about.
Sadly, many of these same posts bear personal attacks and all too frequently insults have come up. I was under the impression that such invectives were not to be tolerated on this website, but evidence to the contrary is ample. There is no cause for me to address each one, particularly because there are so many. Hopefully, though, this situation can be addressed and corrected so that a sense of community and information sharing can be enhanced. I have asked the administrators for their assistance in this matter.
I continue to encourage anyone who has any reports of behaviours or interactions that snakes seem to experience in a positive way, and/or interpretations of these phenomena, to share them on this thread, please. My goal is to make the captive lives of snakes less stressful and more pleasant for them and to encourage those people who keep snakes to have a higher rate of behavioural success with them. If this is from a viewpoint of "love, fine. If it is from the perspective of classic conditioning, fine. The same goes for any viewpoint. The evidence, anecdotal or not, is much appreciated and I hope will go toward improving the lives of snakes and their keepers.
Thank you,
Cory
Simple for the bold and underlined part. Don't mess with them. Meet their environment needs and voila. Less stress.
Thank you Aaron_S. I know this is a slight deviation from the original goal of this thread but what sort of environmental conditions would you advise?
In the case of Lily we noticed that he seemed to be disturbed by movement over top of him. Since his vivarium was at floor level and in a busy part of the home we decided to cover the top so that he wouldn't be able to see motion over top of him on a regular basis. It worked and he calmed down.
After further research we realized that he may be somewhat arboreal and that he might benefit from a cage that was taller than it was long, with many things to climb and perch upon. My girlfriend did a great job in setting up his new home that has (from highest to lowest) four rings to climb in at the top, two baskets for perches mid way down, and plastic PVC piping underneath his substrate for a burrow.
He has taken very well to his new home and has been living in it for a few years now. He is generally calmer and no longer seems interested in trying out another environment. Previously, in his old vivarium, he had gotten out twice. Both times he sought to go higher up and was found in our closet having nestled himself among folded clothes. He still likes to burrow around in the substrate when in spring and when it is freshly changed. Other than that his escape tendencies have decreased and I have not noticed any attempts to find a weak spot to escape through.
Aaron_S
05-31-13, 03:50 PM
Thank you Aaron_S. I know this is a slight deviation from the original goal of this thread but what sort of environmental conditions would you advise?
In the case of Lily we noticed that he seemed to be disturbed by movement over top of him. Since his vivarium was at floor level and in a busy part of the home we decided to cover the top so that he wouldn't be able to see motion over top of him on a regular basis. It worked and he calmed down.
After further research we realized that he may be somewhat arboreal and that he might benefit from a cage that was taller than it was long, with many things to climb and perch upon. My girlfriend did a great job in setting up his new home that has (from highest to lowest) four rings to climb in at the top, two baskets for perches mid way down, and plastic PVC piping underneath his substrate for a burrow.
He has taken very well to his new home and has been living in it for a few years now. He is generally calmer and no longer seems interested in trying out another environment. Previously, in his old vivarium, he had gotten out twice. Both times he sought to go higher up and was found in our closet having nestled himself among folded clothes. He still likes to burrow around in the substrate when in spring and when it is freshly changed. Other than that his escape tendencies have decreased and I have not noticed any attempts to find a weak spot to escape through.
Bold and underlined is technically a loaded question. It depends on the species and I have no idea what species you're talking about.
If it's terrestrial then yes, anything above would seem like a predator coming at them.
Aaron_S
05-31-13, 03:56 PM
I would like to thank those of you who have posted appropriate responses to my initial question. They have been valuable to read and I now see patterns of behaviour that are similar to the ones I posted about.
Sadly, many of these same posts bear personal attacks and all too frequently insults have come up. I was under the impression that such invectives were not to be tolerated on this website, but evidence to the contrary is ample. There is no cause for me to address each one, particularly because there are so many. Hopefully, though, this situation can be addressed and corrected so that a sense of community and information sharing can be enhanced. I have asked the administrators for their assistance in this matter.
I continue to encourage anyone who has any reports of behaviours or interactions that snakes seem to experience in a positive way, and/or interpretations of these phenomena, to share them on this thread, please. My goal is to make the captive lives of snakes less stressful and more pleasant for them and to encourage those people who keep snakes to have a higher rate of behavioural success with them. If this is from a viewpoint of "love, fine. If it is from the perspective of classic conditioning, fine. The same goes for any viewpoint. The evidence, anecdotal or not, is much appreciated and I hope will go toward improving the lives of snakes and their keepers.
Thank you,
Cory
I'll respond to the rest now.
When you decide that heresay (which is all you and others who share your views are going on) decide to actually do research and be open minded to the fact you may be wrong then we can continue this debate.
Until then, I'll never take the story of someone who just wants to believe their animal has a higher intelligence and tries to prove it be saying basic instinct is some sort of "love" or other emotion. Every snake action can be easily put to a basic instinct.
Aaron_S,
My apologies if I was unclear about what kind of snake I was asking about. I was referring both to the yellow rat snake (Elaphe obsoleta rossalleni) featured in the thread's title and also anything generally that you thought was worth noting. The contribution you provided was a general one and thereby appreciated.
I was not aware that this would become a debate and never intended it to be so. I was only interested in viewpoints on the thread topic; "The yellow rat snake that may enjoy some human contact" and thank you for your contribution.
Aaron_S
05-31-13, 05:51 PM
Aaron_S,
My apologies if I was unclear about what kind of snake I was asking about. I was referring both to the yellow rat snake (Elaphe obsoleta rossalleni) featured in the thread's title and also anything generally that you thought was worth noting. The contribution you provided was a general one and thereby appreciated.
I was not aware that this would become a debate and never intended it to be so. I was only interested in viewpoints on the thread topic; "The yellow rat snake that may enjoy some human contact" and thank you for your contribution.
debate? viewpoints? All the same.
I would really like to see someone back up their "viewpoints" instead of the blind leading the blind.
I don't know enough about that species but give the required needs for the species and all is golden. They stress less. It's very visible in the snake's demeanour.
smy_749
05-31-13, 08:34 PM
Sorry to derail your thread Cory :S I couldn't resist responding to some of the stories.
Aaron_S
05-31-13, 09:46 PM
Sorry to derail your thread Cory :S I couldn't resist responding to some of the stories.
Derailed?
I think it was an appropriate message to keep a lot of new keepers from drinking this kind of kool-aid.
smy_749
06-01-13, 05:34 AM
Yea maybe.
Cory, Im not sorry anymore . lol
I asked for people to freely share their viewpoints, evidence, and interpretations on the topic. All people, and I would greatly prefer if no one were to feel that their contributions would be unwelcome. I think this forum is a good place for such a free-flow of ideas since Rule 3 of sSnakeSs.com states:
"3. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. We take politeness very seriously. You are welcome to challenge others points of view and opinions, but do so respectively and thoughtfully."
On this basis I encourage all personal attacks and labeling others as "stupid" to be refrained from and expect civility and respect of diversity.
Aaron_S
06-01-13, 09:58 AM
I asked for people to freely share their viewpoints, evidence, and interpretations on the topic. All people, and I would greatly prefer if no one were to feel that their contributions would be unwelcome. I think this forum is a good place for such a free-flow of ideas since Rule 3 of sSnakeSs.com states:
"3. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. We take politeness very seriously. You are welcome to challenge others points of view and opinions, but do so respectively and thoughtfully."
On this basis I encourage all personal attacks and labeling others as "stupid" to be refrained from and expect civility and respect of diversity.
So those that share a differing opinion are not allowed to speak in a thread? Just because you make a thread it doesn't mean the topic isn't allowed to deviate based on the discussion.
I have not made any personal attacks but I'd like to point out that no one has respected my diversity that I'm right and everyone who disagrees is wrong.
KORBIN5895
06-01-13, 12:52 PM
I asked for people to freely share their viewpoints, evidence, and interpretations on the topic. All people, and I would greatly prefer if no one were to feel that their contributions would be unwelcome. I think this forum is a good place for such a free-flow of ideas since Rule 3 of sSnakeSs.com states:
"3. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. We take politeness very seriously. You are welcome to challenge others points of view and opinions, but do so respectively and thoughtfully."
On this basis I encourage all personal attacks and labeling others as "stupid" to be refrained from and expect civility and respect of diversity.
Are you telling me that we shouldn't call people what they are? If someone is doing something foolish we would call them a fool. If someone is picking on another person we call them a bully. When someone can't formulate a legitimate scientific argument to support their view but instead use pointless and totally irrelevant stories and unknown sources ghats pretty asinine and really stupid. Support your theory with facts first and observations seconds.
StudentoReptile
06-01-13, 06:17 PM
Are you telling me that we shouldn't call people what they are? If someone is doing something foolish we would call them a fool. If someone is picking on another person we call them a bully. When someone can't formulate a legitimate scientific argument to support their view but instead use pointless and totally irrelevant stories and unknown sources ghats pretty asinine and really stupid. Support your theory with facts first and observations seconds.
There is the truth, and calling people out when there are holes in their advice...and then there is flat-out excessive, unnecessary insulting. For example, I will not hesitate to question information I feel is inaccurate, or in the least, unfounded on facts. I may even call the person ignorant, and bluntly tell them they do not know what they are talking about. I try to refrain from name-calling (Ex: idiot, stupid, moron, etc....). The exception is labeling someone a troll or a cyber-bully, when the term is applicable.
That said, in my book, I personally define stupidity as follows: the deliberate choice to remain ignorant; to purposefully ignore sound advice and the wisdom of those more experienced than one's self.
smy_749
06-01-13, 08:00 PM
I don't think I actually said 'your stupid' if that counts for anything. I don't regret what I said, or take back any of my 'insults' though. I meant what I said, I only apologized because I thought this thread was for another purpose (I don't know what, but I was under the impression I derailed it from the original topic). If thats not the case, and I was on topic then great. Also, in my books, name calling is just blurting out insults. And to studentofreptile, I think your definition of stupid could be applied numerous times in this thread, so I guess I was justified :P
Politeness and respect are due to all people. If something needs criticism it should be the ideas and evidence promoted, not the person. In essence, no ad hominem attacks. Since science seems to be admired by many of those who have posted already then scientific discourse may be a good model to draw from. In scientific discourse, the position is up for critique, not the person who posited it.
There is also no value in calling an idea stupid. Instead, any weaknesses and flaws in the idea or evidence could be exposed. In other words, show how the point posited is wrong with substance and explanation, not with simple insults that may serve to anger or intimidate but not to enlighten. It is quite possible that the person whose views are being critiqued has missed something and could benefit greatly from correction. We are merely human, after all. Such a person might be far less willing to learn if s/he is frustrated by the person critiquing his / her views in a rude manner.
smy_749
06-02-13, 07:47 PM
Politeness and respect are due to all people. If something needs criticism it should be the ideas and evidence promoted, not the person. In essence, no ad hominem attacks. Since science seems to be admired by many of those who have posted already then scientific discourse may be a good model to draw from. In scientific discourse, the position is up for critique, not the person who posited it.
There is also no value in calling an idea stupid. Instead, any weaknesses and flaws in the idea or evidence could be exposed. In other words, show how the point posited is wrong with substance and explanation, not with simple insults that may serve to anger or intimidate but not to enlighten. It is quite possible that the person whose views are being critiqued has missed something and could benefit greatly from correction. We are merely human, after all. Such a person might be far less willing to learn if s/he is frustrated by the person critiquing his / her views in a rude manner.
If we are having a scientific 'debate' , then both sides should be based on size.
If One says : Snakes require a limbic system in order to feel emotion like we do, and this is absent as far as we know.
And the other says: No, my snake loves me because when I flick my tongue he flicks it back.
Then what sort of academic discussion do you expect to ensue?
Ryodraco
06-03-13, 07:47 PM
I question if scientists really understand the brain enough to be certain a limbic system is the only method of feeling emotions or having a higher intelligence. More than once I've read or heard scientists who study brains remark that there is a great deal they still don't know about how the human brain actually functions (let alone the very different brains of reptiles, amphibians, birds and such). Studying emotions/intelligence in most animals is still a pretty young science as well.
At the same time though I am doubtful any snake forms a bond with its owner beyond "this scent/sight is not dangerous and may feed me or keep me warm." For me that is enough.
smy_749
06-04-13, 12:40 PM
I question if scientists really understand the brain enough to be certain a limbic system is the only method of feeling emotions or having a higher intelligence. More than once I've read or heard scientists who study brains remark that there is a great deal they still don't know about how the human brain actually functions (let alone the very different brains of reptiles, amphibians, birds and such). Studying emotions/intelligence in most animals is still a pretty young science as well.
At the same time though I am doubtful any snake forms a bond with its owner beyond "this scent/sight is not dangerous and may feed me or keep me warm." For me that is enough.
Agreed 100% , which is why I said from what we know currently, this is my stance.
Smy_749, politeness is mandated on this site, not scientific debate.
Regarding limbic systems, I'm not quite sure where the idea came from that reptiles lack limbic systems or are assumed to lack some sort of emotional life. Current evidence indicates quite the opposite. To illustrate this I quote the abstract from the article by Bruce and Neary, "The limbic system of tetrapods: a comparative analysis of cortical and amygdalar populations." as it appears in the journal Brain Behavior and Evolution (Brain Behav Evol. 1995;46(4-5):224-34.):
"Recent studies of the limbic system of tetrapods have made data available that challenge some of the long-held tenets of forebrain evolution. Using the basic principle of parsimony--that the best hypotheses concerning homologies are those requiring the fewest number of evolutionary changes--we have reevaluated comparisons of tetrapod limbic systems. Given the current data, the following points appear to be justified: (1) the common ancestors of reptiles and mammals had a well-developed limbic system in which the basic subdivisions and connections of the amygdalar nuclei were established; (2) the ventral part of the lateral pallium in amphibians appears to be a single structure which corresponds to at least four areas in reptiles: centromedial DVR, ventral anterior amygdala, lateral amygdala, and part of the lateral cortex; (3) the medial pallium in amphibians appears to be homologous with the dorsal and medial cortices in reptiles and with the general and hippocampal cortices in mammals: (4) the cortical targets of the main olfactory bulb in reptiles and mammals appear to be homologous, and their common ancestor probably had a corresponding olfactory pallial field; (5) the targets of the accessory olfactory bulb in amphibians, reptiles, and mammals appear to be homologous, with the exception of nucleus sphericus in reptiles, which lacks an obvious homologue in non-reptiles."
So there is very good, solid evidence that supports the probability of reptiles experiencing an emotional life. Arguments to the contrary are weighing in against a wealth of scientific publication.
Cory...I floated the "no limbic system"....again, I will stand by my assertions. I am all for research (I am a physician), but when you quote studies that compare "common ancestors", and use the terms "appear to be homologous" is the same as a drug company doing a study on a new drug and testing it on beagle puppies and trying to correlate that data to a human being. Show me a study that says, definitively that my snake is excited when I open the garage door to come in from work and I'll concede the argument that "my snake loves to chill with me while watching 'Die Hard' on the TV"....
Aaron_S
06-11-13, 05:19 PM
I'll have to simply say the fact that the article in particular is from 1995, nearly 20 years ago, would make the information dated for this discussion. There must have been more studies done on the limbic system since then. I'm sure we didn't stop researching the brain in 95.
Zoo Nanny
06-12-13, 11:32 AM
I recently read a paper that I found very interesting. I think many of you may find it interesting as well. Although it is mainly on the brains of mammalians and avians it does touch on reptilian brains also. I honestly am not sure on the intelligence of reptiles as a whole but have seen some interesting behavior that raised questions for me. I will be interested to see what is learned as additional studies are completed. Up until recently birds were considered unintelligent and without emotion. After years of in depth study the scientific community has proven that many birds have similiar traits to mammals with intelligence and emotions. The article is long but I think a good read for those of you who are interested. Mammalian and Avian Neuroanatomy and the Question of Consciousness in Birds (http://www.biolbull.org/content/211/2/106.full)
rangers
06-12-13, 03:31 PM
I'm afraid of stupidity. It's contagious and I don't want newcomers to catch it from you. Your right, it is easier to treat them like unthinking commodities and in minimal conditions, so which member does that? You think the only reason people like me, aaron, whoever else thinks they don't like us, keeps them for profit? What do you keep your animals for? Because they love you and you don't want to break their hearts? Or to observe them for your own amusement? Or do you breed them to repopulate the population and save planet earth? I didn't say it has no real brain or feelings, I said it doesn't have what you think it has, because you seem to have never opened a book and read anything on the matter.
I'm afraid of people who say the snake enjoy's his contact (around his neck) and uses it as a proof that they enjoy his company, and at the end discredits himself saying he probably smelled a female and was just confused.
Oh, your friend is a scientist so YOU must understand the physiology of all things reptile? And again with the " kept snakes for many years " thing.....
Enlighten me with your specifics please, not from your own mouth, but scientific facts. We are all aware that scientists get things wrong, but its not any reason to lose your marbles and think of any theory that comes to mind without understanding anything and having no foundation in the knowledge required to come up with those theories .
You know, I agree with possum here. I've rubbed my snakes neck, lizards neck's, and they almost fall asleep or calm down. And, I believe if youve kept snake for many years, I'm sure you'd start understand what they like don't like. Im catching stupidity from someone other than possum. ( hint hint)
KORBIN5895
06-12-13, 04:12 PM
You know, I agree with possum here. I've rubbed my snakes neck, lizards neck's, and they almost fall asleep or calm down. And, I believe if youve kept snake for many years, I'm sure you'd start understand what they like don't like. Im catching stupidity from someone other than possum. ( hint hint)
Or spreading it......
lady_bug87
06-12-13, 05:45 PM
Now now boys play nice.
smy_749
06-12-13, 05:47 PM
You know, I agree with possum here. I've rubbed my snakes neck, lizards neck's, and they almost fall asleep or calm down. And, I believe if youve kept snake for many years, I'm sure you'd start understand what they like don't like. Im catching stupidity from someone other than possum. ( hint hint)
Did you read all my posts or just pick and choose. I'll say it again, if you get a massage, and it feels good, does that mean you have to be affectionate/caring/loving towards the one who gave you a massage? No....
KORBIN5895
06-12-13, 05:48 PM
Now now boys play nice.
Sorry Lorilove but I don't know how to ....
rangers
06-12-13, 09:24 PM
Did you read all my posts or just pick and choose. I'll say it again, if you get a massage, and it feels good, does that mean you have to be affectionate/caring/loving towards the one who gave you a massage? No....
I read all of the posts.
lady_bug87
06-12-13, 09:28 PM
Sorry Lorilove but I don't know how to ....
BAMF to the core
SkyesRingo
06-13-13, 07:35 AM
For the record... and if someone responds with hostility I'll completely ignore you... why buy a snake if you just keep it and feed it... for show? Seems a little harsh to me. Why buy an animal if you're just gonna let it sit there most of the time only getting some food and water?
As an owner myself of many different species, I like to enjoy company with my pets, even if they don't have the capacity for enjoyment. Personally (and I'm sure others could agree) I like to think my pets enjoy my company as well. Now, they might now actually be enjoying it, but they feel safe, they recognize our scent, they know we care for them well, and it's nice to THINK they enjoy it even though we KNOW they don't (no capacity)
These arguments about whether or not snakes have feelings is getting on my nerves, because we don't know crap about how a snake thinks or completely why they do something. It's all speculation. So whether or not my snake likes my company, I know I like his.
ON ANOTHER NOTE
I've witnessed my corny doing the same twitch movements and I believe them to be curiosity about things they touch. I normally witness Ringo twitching when he's on my bf's arm(he has thick hair) or my arm which is smoother. I also noticed the arching body thing as well when I stroke down his back, and it's either a "oo that feels good" or "ew get away"
Since we don't speak snake, who knows. It's still cute tho :)
Anyways, That's my opinion on all these facts and whatnot.
If you're gonna try and call me stupid, I expect you refrain from it unless you're a herpetologist yourself, because you know just about as much as I do. (It's also against forum rules if I remember correctly C: )
P.S. I think by "flirting" they mean attempting to attract the opposite gender, which a female had been there recently perhaps, so they assumed the pulsing and scent were another snake, common mistake for every species I'm sure.
(If you decide to call out any wrong comments, please state where I was wrong and politely explain your reasoning for believing I'm wrong... I'm tired of all the hate on here.)
SkyesRingo
06-13-13, 07:42 AM
Extra note....
Why can't everyone just get along and be polite? D:
Just because you believe someone is wrong doesn't mean you have to be a bully :(
And bullying is EXACTLY what some of you are doing! Disputing a comment and forcing your information down their throat.. at least That's how I'm reading all this. It's so silly...
smy_749
06-13-13, 07:54 AM
lol.... I quit
Lankyrob
06-13-13, 08:59 AM
I buy snakes beacuse they are amazing creatures and i can sit and watch them all day in their enclosures, most are awake late at night when i am too whilst the rest of my family are sleeping.
Do i handle them? Occasionally, maybe once every few months but i dont believe theree is any benefit for the snake in doing so, its purely for my benefit.
smy_749
06-13-13, 09:45 AM
My personal opinion (and I will probably be scorned for it), is that people who buy snakes and want to handle them, are expecting a mutual relationship and love, etc. don't like when the animal 'bites the hand that feeds him' are looking for the characteristics of dogs and cats in their snakes because thats what they enjoy. Your snake is not a dog or a cat unfortunately. Many of us, like Rob, appreciate the true beauty, enjoy observing them from a distance without having to be touchy feely all the time. It is by no means neglect to not ever hold him, and holding all the time just stresses them out anyways usually. I recently contacted someone on craigslist about a biak green tree and she said " if you don't hold him daily and want to live him in a box then I won't sell to you. This snake needs to be loved, I worked 6 months to train him to be held" .... ridiculous
lol.... I quit
LOL... me too :)
Never let facts get in the way of truth...
Tapping out now.
KORBIN5895
06-13-13, 10:14 AM
Stupidity still reigns.
rangers
06-13-13, 10:38 AM
My personal opinion (and I will probably be scorned for it), is that people who buy snakes and want to handle them, are expecting a mutual relationship and love, etc. don't like when the animal 'bites the hand that feeds him' are looking for the characteristics of dogs and cats in their snakes because thats what they enjoy. Your snake is not a dog or a cat unfortunately. Many of us, like Rob, appreciate the true beauty, enjoy observing them from a distance without having to be touchy feely all the time. It is by no means neglect to not ever hold him, and holding all the time just stresses them out anyways usually. I recently contacted someone on craigslist about a biak green tree and she said " if you don't hold him daily and want to live him in a box then I won't sell to you. This snake needs to be loved, I worked 6 months to train him to be held" .... ridiculous
You make a good point here, the snake can't tell the difference between your hand and a mouse, fish, etc, except by smell. Now, I do enjoy holding my water snake sometimes, thought when it bites me, it doesn't bother me, the same with musking and pooping. Its part of owning a snake, or any other animal for that matter. I never expected love from my snake, but I'm sure someone has. If you go out and catch a snake, why should you be mad becuase it bit you, musked on you? Wouldn't you do the same?
smy_749
06-13-13, 10:55 AM
You make a good point here, the snake can't tell the difference between your hand and a mouse, fish, etc, except by smell. Now, I do enjoy holding my water snake sometimes, thought when it bites me, it doesn't bother me, the same with musking and pooping. Its part of owning a snake, or any other animal for that matter. I never expected love from my snake, but I'm sure someone has. If you go out and catch a snake, why should you be mad becuase it bit you, musked on you? Wouldn't you do the same?
Yea, one time someone grabbed me in a headlock, so I peed all over him. He didn't try that again. He also can't tell the difference between your warm skin, and his warm heat pad. Also massaging a snake and having him fall asleep doesn't show that he enjoys it necessarily....maybe that particular movement just makes him fall asleep, who knows.
Mikoh4792
06-13-13, 11:00 AM
For the record... and if someone responds with hostility I'll completely ignore you... why buy a snake if you just keep it and feed it... for show? Seems a little harsh to me. Why buy an animal if you're just gonna let it sit there most of the time only getting some food and water?
Are you saying it's harsh to never handle a snake? I think the snake will be perfectly fine without being handled the rest of it's life. Also, a part of keeping snakes for me is show. I like to make nice displays in the enclosures and watch them explore their habitat. I see it as sort of an art, how I can set the enclosure to look a certain way and have my animal thrive in it. I don't ever need to handle them. I know snakes aren't fish, but fish do fine when kept for "show" in brightly lit aquariums as long as they are fed and their enclosures are maintained. Snakes especially since they are solitary animals.
Don't get my wrong, I handle my snakes. I just don't agree with your argument that just keeping it and feeding it is harsh. The snake doesn't need to be handled and will be content with just being fed, given water, and having shelter provided to them.(Let's not forget heat and humidity)
Yea, one time someone grabbed me in a headlock, so I peed all over him. He didn't try that again.
Lol, that made my day :)
Aaron_S
06-13-13, 12:34 PM
For the record... and if someone responds with hostility I'll completely ignore you... why buy a snake if you just keep it and feed it... for show? Seems a little harsh to me. Why buy an animal if you're just gonna let it sit there most of the time only getting some food and water?...
So you can say hostile things to me but I can't to you? Sounds kind of hypocritical of you child.
I find it hostile of you that you presume such things about my hobby/business. That I couldn't know anything without being a trained herpetologist.
I won't say much else since you're only 16. You'll learn soon enough about the world child.
why buy a snake if you just keep it and feed it... for show? Seems a little harsh to me. Why buy an animal if you're just gonna let it sit there most of the time only getting some food and water?
Because keeping an animal isn't about doing what's best for you, it's about doing what's best for the animal's health and well-being.
Take ball pythons for example - they spend most of their lives underground digesting their last meal in their natural habitat. They are not comfortable out in the open. Now, I didn't know that when I got one, so I ended up (from the pet shop, go figure) with a nice glass display tank and a less than ideal setup. Result was an unhappy BP. So, I started doing research and asking questions, and initially was pretty shocked to discover that people housed them in rack systems. How could this be? How could these snakes not appreciate the large, well-appointed terrarium I had purchased? Well, appreciated or not, obviously the nice setup was suitable for a king snake or even a boa, but not a ball. Fine, rack system built, and it now contains happy little hiding balls who are perfectly content if they have access to hides, clean water, a weekly meal, and appropriate temperatures and humidity. Can they all be handled? Yes. I wouldn't say they all enjoy it, but some tolerate it better than others. Are they happier in their tubs? Very obviously yes.
SkyesRingo
06-13-13, 01:06 PM
I suppose my mind had wandered to how people have a whole bunch of snake just sitting in tubs on a rack. I'm still new to all this so my opinions from before owning a snake still rule my brian -.°
I used to believe that way of keeping snake was odd, and being able to see the snake and interact with it was always better.
I know I was wrong in my previous post, pardon me, however I was a little titched off so my anger slipped thru.
But I will stick with the parts which aren't hostile.
Lankyrob
06-13-13, 04:38 PM
Personally i hate tubs, would never use them, i want to give me animals space and as much space as practically efficient for teh house i live in.
BUT i do understand why others use tubs and i wouldn't berate them for doing so, both ideas work, neither is cruel or "bad". Personal preference is just that :)
VaranidLover
06-13-13, 04:56 PM
Personally i hate tubs, would never use them, i want to give me animals space and as much space as practically efficient for teh house i live in.
BUT i do understand why others use tubs and i wouldn't berate them for doing so, both ideas work, neither is cruel or "bad". Personal preference is just that :)
My leo is in a 4x2x1 tub. Is it still small because it's a tub? my female BCI is in a 4x2x1 pvc since she was 2 feet, and is 6 foot now. Perfectly adequate space, but, probably still too small just because it's a tub?
Please.. rethink things before you say things like that. I appreciate the disclaimer to try to avoid any grief but.. here it is: I give more space to my animals using tubs than 99% of people do using tanks. Why? it's cheaper to do so and it works BETTER for the animal.
You made it seem like people using tubs are doing things inhumanely and that isn't right. Get your facts straight, as should the OP who knows nothing about basic reptilian anatomy.
Mikoh4792
06-13-13, 04:59 PM
I suppose my mind had wandered to how people have a whole bunch of snake just sitting in tubs on a rack. I'm still new to all this so my opinions from before owning a snake still rule my brian -.°
I used to believe that way of keeping snake was odd, and being able to see the snake and interact with it was always better.
I know I was wrong in my previous post, pardon me, however I was a little titched off so my anger slipped thru.
But I will stick with the parts which aren't hostile.
I know you mean well, and that this opinion of yours is past you, but I just need to point the bolded ^ part out. Snakes would probably feel more secure if you didn't "see" them. Unless you have kept one for years and have one that is tolerant of your presence, anything alive and bigger than them is a potential predator. They would rather not be seen. I know this is not the wild, but in the wild where they(individual snakes) come from, they do not interact with humans on a regular basis and they get along just fine by themselves. Why would they need interaction in a captive environment?
Lankyrob
06-13-13, 05:13 PM
My leo is in a 4x2x1 tub. Is it still small because it's a tub? my female BCI is in a 4x2x1 pvc since she was 2 feet, and is 6 foot now. Perfectly adequate space, but, probably still too small just because it's a tub?
Please.. rethink things before you say things like that. I appreciate the disclaimer to try to avoid any grief but.. here it is: I give more space to my animals using tubs than 99% of people do using tanks. Why? it's cheaper to do so and it works BETTER for the animal.
You made it seem like people using tubs are doing things inhumanely and that isn't right. Get your facts straight, as should the OP who knows nothing about basic reptilian anatomy.
If i made it seem like tubs are inhumane then that was not the intention at all and i thought by saying it personal preference and that neither is "bad" clarified that - obviously not
smy_749
06-13-13, 05:38 PM
My leo is in a 4x2x1 tub. Is it still small because it's a tub? my female BCI is in a 4x2x1 pvc since she was 2 feet, and is 6 foot now. Perfectly adequate space, but, probably still too small just because it's a tub?
Please.. rethink things before you say things like that. I appreciate the disclaimer to try to avoid any grief but.. here it is: I give more space to my animals using tubs than 99% of people do using tanks. Why? it's cheaper to do so and it works BETTER for the animal.
You made it seem like people using tubs are doing things inhumanely and that isn't right. Get your facts straight, as should the OP who knows nothing about basic reptilian anatomy.
Umm???
Personally i hate tubs, would never use them, i want to give me animals space and as much space as practically efficient for teh house i live in.
BUT i do understand why others use tubs and i wouldn't berate them for doing so, both ideas work, neither is cruel or "bad". Personal preference is just that :)
Did you miss that part?
KORBIN5895
06-13-13, 07:02 PM
My leo is in a 4x2x1 tub. Is it still small because it's a tub? my female BCI is in a 4x2x1 pvc since she was 2 feet, and is 6 foot now. Perfectly adequate space, but, probably still too small just because it's a tub?
Please.. rethink things before you say things like that. I appreciate the disclaimer to try to avoid any grief but.. here it is: I give more space to my animals using tubs than 99% of people do using tanks. Why? it's cheaper to do so and it works BETTER for the animal.
You made it seem like people using tubs are doing things inhumanely and that isn't right. Get your facts straight, as should the OP who knows nothing about basic reptilian anatomy.
Wow! I'm impressed. Can I get you a cookie?
Mikoh4792
06-13-13, 08:20 PM
Wow! I'm impressed. Can I get you a cookie?
I want one
I want one
Make mine chocolate chip, home made, still warm from the oven, with a tall glass of milk on the side.
Mikoh4792
06-14-13, 06:10 AM
Make mine chocolate chip, home made, still warm from the oven, with a tall glass of milk on the side.
I'll take a mallomar
http://gunshyassassin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/mallomars.jpg
This thread is now about cookies
smy_749
06-14-13, 06:22 AM
That looks gross and like it would give you cancer. I like real homemade cookies.
Mikoh4792
06-14-13, 07:18 AM
That looks gross and like it would give you cancer. I like real homemade cookies.
LOL what makes it look gross? It's just chocolate, marshmallow and graham crackers. It's like smores.
KORBIN5895
06-14-13, 09:13 AM
LOL what makes it look gross? It's just chocolate, marshmallow and graham crackers. It's like smores.
Plus one!!!
DOBERMAN
06-15-13, 09:11 AM
Was watching "Zoo Diaries" yesterday and they had a segment on the Tortoises at the Toronto Zoo. Their primary keeper who works with them every day (and I think it was like 4 years or something) specifically said, and I quote, "they seek out human contact and affection" and indeed they filmed a tortoise going up to her and she stroking its neck. For all you naysayers in this thread, I would think that her somewhat qualified experience should be taken into consideration.
Mikoh4792
06-15-13, 09:32 AM
Was watching "Zoo Diaries" yesterday and they had a segment on the Tortoises at the Toronto Zoo. Their primary keeper who works with them every day (and I think it was like 4 years or something) specifically said, and I quote, "they seek out human contact and affection" and indeed they filmed a tortoise going up to her and she stroking its neck. For all you naysayers in this thread, I would think that her somewhat qualified experience should be taken into consideration.
Tortoises are not snakes. Just because a tortoise goes up to her and she strokes it's neck does not prove it feels affection towards her.
Aaron_S
06-15-13, 09:40 AM
Was watching "Zoo Diaries" yesterday and they had a segment on the Tortoises at the Toronto Zoo. Their primary keeper who works with them every day (and I think it was like 4 years or something) specifically said, and I quote, "they seek out human contact and affection" and indeed they filmed a tortoise going up to her and she stroking its neck. For all you naysayers in this thread, I would think that her somewhat qualified experience should be taken into consideration.
I don't trust anything from a zoo keeper. Especially with reptiles. I can run circles around most of them.
Besides, my snake randomly slithers to the open side of the tub. I stroke it's back and don't get bit. I'm sure that quantifies everything anyone has ever said about them seeking affection. It's now scientific FACT. BOOM! I just blew everyone's mind. Where's my nobel prize?
I don't trust anything from a zoo keeper. Especially with reptiles. I can run circles around most of them.
Besides, my snake randomly slithers to the open side of the tub. I stroke it's back and don't get bit. I'm sure that quantifies everything anyone has ever said about them seeking affection. It's now scientific FACT. BOOM! I just blew everyone's mind. Where's my nobel prize?
I think Obama has it ;)
smy_749
06-15-13, 11:43 AM
Its funny what people can convince themselves of when they really want to. Maybe the turtle is hungry, and she normally feeds him by hand? Maybe the turtle thinks it feels good to be massaged, but doesn't give 2 shts about the lady. Or maybe the turtle just happened to walk by and she thought it was towards her....
Mikoh4792
06-15-13, 12:11 PM
Its funny what people can convince themselves of when they really want to. Maybe the turtle is hungry, and she normally feeds him by hand? Maybe the turtle thinks it feels good to be massaged, but doesn't give 2 shts about the lady. Or maybe the turtle just happened to walk by and she thought it was towards her....
exactly, I would take it to be the possibility that the tortoise has associated food and care with the lady before I'd ever think it was for affection.
DOBERMAN
06-16-13, 03:02 PM
I hear what you guys are saying. Its very easy for anybody to anthropomorphize, even zookeepers. But I think that outright saying she has no idea what she is talking about is a little arrogant considering she has had four years of experience with reptiles. Would those who say that a reptile can not be affectionate, but a cat can, be confounded in a never ending circular argument of semantics? A cats "affection" can be similarily attributed to nothing more than self preservation - by way of obtaining food or shelter or safety.
What I would like to submit to this argument is that the most intellectual and profound scientists of history often were philosophers as well. In fact one could say that at the highest levels of science, for which there are formulas and equations and insights we mere mortals of pseudointellectual debate cannot understand, is that science and philosophy or "religion" actually don't seperate more divisively as you would think, but actually start to relate to one another and become more cohesive.
Inquiry into scientific juggernauts, for example, Descartes or Newton, and any other major historical scientific figure for that matter, will reveal this.
One good book I can think of that everybody who is interested in this debate should read is The Tao of Physics. A great movie that also broaches this subject is Artificial Intelligence by Spielberg. There are other numerous books and movies that delve deeply into this matter. In fact, you could say that, especially in the genre of science fiction, this subject is investigated quite prolifically. Is an emotion real, is it something we can quantify, or simply just a mere set of algorithms, whether it be a smart computer or alien being? Can we even properly define an implied emotional response? Is it that it simply exists within our mind, that our perception of a heartfelt act is all that affection is, and the mere recognition of it justifies its existence?
More food for thought
I watched a documentary a few years ago about a boy who was born with half of his brain and the doctors said that he would never be able to speak or understand language, for that part of the brain that creates and processes that function doesn't exist. Years later, he could speak and understand language quite fluently. The neuroscientists decided that the other parts of his brain made up for that initial defeciency. Does this not say that we should be wary of appropriating certain capabilities to certain parts of the brain? For that if a reptile does not have a "limbic" system that it cannot remotely feel affinity or affection for anything?
Mikoh4792
06-16-13, 03:17 PM
I hear what you guys are saying. Its very easy for anybody to anthropomorphize, even zookeepers. But I think that outright saying she has no idea what she is talking about is a little arrogant considering she has had four years of experience with reptiles. Would those who say that a reptile can not be affectionate, but a cat can, be confounded in a never ending circular argument of semantics? A cats "affection" can be similarily attributed to nothing more than self preservation - by way of obtaining food or shelter or safety.
Only 4 years? How about those of us who have been breeding and keeping snakes specifically for decades? I wouldn't say it's arrogant, it's reasonable. Well exactly, in regards to your point you made about the cat, it could just be self-preservation and not emotional attachment.
What I would like to submit to this argument is that the most intellectual and profound scientists of history often were philosophers as well. In fact one could say that at the highest levels of science, for which there are formulas and equations and insights we mere mortals of pseudointellectual debate cannot understand, is that science and philosophy or "religion" actually don't seperate more divisively as you would think, but actually start to relate to one another and become more cohesive.
Inquiry into scientific juggernauts, for example, Descartes or Newton, and any other major historical scientific figure for that matter, will reveal this.
One good book I can think of that everybody who is interested in this debate should read is The Tao of Physics. A great movie that also broaches this subject is Artificial Intelligence by Spielberg. There are other numerous books and movies that delve deeply into this matter. In fact, you could say that, especially in the genre of science fiction, this subject is investigated quite prolifically. Is an emotion real, is it something we can quantify, or simply just a mere set of algorithms, whether it be a smart computer or alien being? Can we even properly define an implied emotional response? Is it that it simply exists within our mind, that our perception of a heartfelt act is all that affection is, and the mere recognition of it justifies its existence?
I think this point you made works against you. Aren't you for the notion that snakes can feel "emotion" towards humans?
Being born with half a human brain far and away out-paces being born with an entire reptile brain. Heck, your example of a cat....a mammal brain is much more developed than a reptile brain. There is this class, called Comparative Anatomy....it kinda goes over this stuff.
Doberman, I applaud your convictions, dude, but the development (or evolutionary need) for affection just isn't there for a reptile.
And....I said I was tapping out of this one. Crap, I hate getting drawn back in.....
You guys go ahead and beat yourselves silly with wishes and "observations"...
http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh572/mtucker66/RepVmamN3rg_zpsfb86844b.jpg (http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/mtucker66/media/RepVmamN3rg_zpsfb86844b.jpg.html)
smy_749
06-16-13, 06:01 PM
Being born with half a human brain far and away out-paces being born with an entire reptile brain. Heck, your example of a cat....a mammal brain is much more developed than a reptile brain. There is this class, called Comparative Anatomy....it kinda goes over this stuff.
Doberman, I applaud your convictions, dude, but the development (or evolutionary need) for affection just isn't there for a reptile.
And....I said I was tapping out of this one. Crap, I hate getting drawn back in.....
You guys go ahead and beat yourselves silly with wishes and "observations"...
http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh572/mtucker66/RepVmamN3rg_zpsfb86844b.jpg (http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/mtucker66/media/RepVmamN3rg_zpsfb86844b.jpg.html)
MDT...I thought we quit? Lol. Anyways 4 years experience sounds alot like she studied some vertebrate classes in college and had a poster of a cornsnake in her dorm....
I had 4 years experience when I was like 13....and unlike these days, when I was young I used to read books about reptiles all day.
DOBERMAN
06-16-13, 07:56 PM
"Only 4 years? How about those of us who have been breeding and keeping snakes specifically for decades? I wouldn't say it's arrogant, it's reasonable. Well exactly, in regards to your point you made about the cat, it could just be self-preservation and not emotional attachment."
I am not discounting the breeders or the immersed members on this site and their experiences. I am stating that someone's opinions who specifically works with reptiles for 4 yrs for 40 hrs a week who actually sounds quite intelligable should not be discounted either. I am a skeptic a heart, and I approached her viewpoints with skepticism. Having said that, I don't want skepticism to get in the way of understanding things I'm skeptical of.
" I think this point you made works against you. Aren't you for the notion that snakes can feel "emotion" towards humans?"
I'm not being partisan in this discussion. I acknowledge the seperate ideologies that arise in debates of this nature. What I've come to understand, with my modest education and life experience, is that pure emperical data does not necessarily explain the complexities of life.
This is why I had brought the historical figures into this thread, to state that hard science and philosophy, while seemingly at opposite ends of the spectrum are not disconnected. That, in trying to understand the true nature of life, being what science is, cannot be solely attributed to diagrams or equations or a set of emperical values. That on a transcendent level, whereby these profound and admired "scientists" could not simply explain things by hard "science" - that being the accumulation of data, they had to look into other areas of introspection. Philosophy or religion - intangible subjects. One cannot understand the physics of light because it is a bunch of photons, packets, at the same time particles, and yet a wave, but pure energy, and E=mcsquared meaning that energy has mass, yet it also can move at the speed of light which means that it has to be massless, for anything with qauntifiable mass cannot move at that speed for it contradicts the laws of inertia, and to have no mass means it doesn't exist, yet somehow can transmit information.....
Well, to digress, Is that linear thoughts, those that are shaped by quantifiable results, for example, that the absence of a certain portion of a brain, is drawing a line in the sand. But a line at higher resolution, is not in fact a line. It's symmetry is, at a microscopic level, haphazard and non-linear. The lines are blurred. Cue Thicke's number 1 hit on the top ten. This is what drove great scientists to take into consideration non mathematical, non-emperical approaches to understanding things and at the same time go crazy in the process. And then, they would submit that, in the exploration of the topics, that more questions were raised then answered.
This is why the "theory of everything", as most modern scientists (and philosophers) strive for, will most likely be unapproachable. Hawking is still perplexed.
Hey what did you guys think of last nights UFC? Shame Roy Country Nelson lost. He's my favourite. But the stats, the tale of the tape, were against him from the beginning.
Mikoh4792
06-16-13, 08:30 PM
I am not discounting the breeders or the immersed members on this site and their experiences. I am stating that someone's opinions who specifically works with reptiles for 4 yrs for 40 hrs a week who actually sounds quite intelligable should not be discounted either. I am a skeptic a heart, and I approached her viewpoints with skepticism. Having said that, I don't want skepticism to get in the way of understanding things I'm skeptical of.
You only tell us what kind of experience she has, but you haven't given us a reason to believe that the tortoise going up to her and her scratching it's neck is anything worthy of consideration. Why would you mention that part if you aren't going to argue for it?
I'm not being partisan in this discussion. I acknowledge the seperate ideologies that arise in debates of this nature. What I've come to understand, with my modest education and life experience, is that pure emperical data does not necessarily explain the complexities of life.
This is why I had brought the historical figures into this thread, to state that hard science and philosophy, while seemingly at opposite ends of the spectrum are not disconnected. That, in trying to understand the true nature of life, being what science is, cannot be solely attributed to diagrams or equations or a set of emperical values. That on a transcendent level, whereby these profound and admired "scientists" could not simply explain things by hard "science" - that being the accumulation of data, they had to look into other areas of introspection. Philosophy or religion - intangible subjects. One cannot understand the physics of light because it is a bunch of photons, packets, at the same time particles, and yet a wave, but pure energy, and E=mcsquared meaning that energy has mass, yet it also can move at the speed of light which means that it has to be massless, for anything with qauntifiable mass cannot move at that speed for it contradicts the laws of inertia, and to have no mass means it doesn't exist, yet somehow can transmit information.....
Well, to digress, Is that linear thoughts, those that are shaped by quantifiable results, for example, that the absence of a certain portion of a brain, is drawing a line in the sand. But a line at higher resolution, is not in fact a line. It's symmetry is, at a microscopic level, haphazard and non-linear. The lines are blurred. Cue Thicke's number 1 hit on the top ten. This is what drove great scientists to take into consideration non mathematical, non-emperical approaches to understanding things and at the same time go crazy in the process. And then, they would submit that, in the exploration of the topics, that more questions were raised then answered.
This is why the "theory of everything", as most modern scientists (and philosophers) strive for, will most likely be unapproachable. Hawking is still perplexed.
Hey what did you guys think of last nights UFC? Shame Roy Country Nelson lost. He's my favourite. But the stats, the tale of the tape, were against him from the beginning.
Good read. It was interesting but I don't see where you are trying to get at. It seems to me like you are trying to sound smart without contributing anything to this issue.
So you give credibility to a zoo keeper of 4 years experience while you try to condescend these "profound and admired scientists"?
DOBERMAN
06-16-13, 09:12 PM
You only tell us what kind of experience she has, but you haven't given us a reason to believe that the tortoise going up to her and her scratching it's neck is anything worthy of consideration. Why would you mention that part if you aren't going to argue for it?
Good read. It was interesting but I don't see where you are trying to get at. It seems to me like you are trying to sound smart without contributing anything to this issue.
So you give credibility to a zoo keeper of 4 years experience while you try to condescend these "profound and admired scientists"?
Condescend? No. I am giving the utmost respect to these individuals of scientific and philosophic repute. Not sure how you missed that.
As far as contribution goes, you have offered none, yet expect me to validate mine further. This is the internet defined.
Mikoh4792
06-16-13, 09:21 PM
Condescend? No. I am giving the utmost respect to these individuals of scientific and philosophic repute. Not sure how you missed that.
As far as contribution goes, you have offered none, yet expect me to validate mine further. This is the internet defined.
You are here talking about how even scientists can't even explain things by "hard" science yet you want us to consider what the zoo keeper has to say by scratching a tortoise's neck. That is not showing the utmost respect for them. You are showing intellectual dishonesty.
I am not here to offer any, which is why I am not treating this thread like a science class as if I am some professor. But I would say I made a contribution by arguing for the notion that it isn't harsh to never handle your snakes. You would know if you actually took the time to read the thread instead of being so absorbed in your own world. You are talking about things which are irrelevant to this matter and go off on this pseudo-intellectual charade.
Yes since you have so much to say about this matter, I would like you to validate your points, whichever they are since you are "not partisan".
And sorry but that is not the internet defined.
DOBERMAN
06-17-13, 03:35 PM
Look mikoh. I'm not here to get into a pissing match with you. I have offered some insight and opinions as to why either side of the coin, whether it be science or philosophy, both have merit in topics of this nature. I haven't taken a side. It looks like you have though, and are expecting me to do the same. My intuition is that you would rather banter than explore.
And as far as being pseudo-intellectual, I have already beaten you to the punch. If you look at my prior posts, I included myself into that statement.
You suffer from "confirmation bias". You will only recognize and appreciate evidence that supports your position. All other ideas to the contrary will be ignored. It's like a virus mikoh and it limits your ability to learn. In fact it is a plague run amok on most internet forums including this one.
From Wikipedia
Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is a tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses.[Note 1][1] People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. For example, in reading about gun control, people usually prefer sources that affirm their existing attitudes. They also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position. Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), belief perseverance (when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false), the irrational primacy effect (a greater reliance on information encountered early in a series) and illusory correlation (when people falsely perceive an association between two events or situations).
A series of experiments in the 1960s suggested that people are biased toward confirming their existing beliefs. Later work re-interpreted these results as a tendency to test ideas in a one-sided way, focusing on one possibility and ignoring alternatives. In certain situations, this tendency can bias people's conclusions. Explanations for the observed biases include wishful thinking and the limited human capacity to process information. Another explanation is that people show confirmation bias because they are weighing up the costs of being wrong, rather than investigating in a neutral, scientific way.
Confirmation biases contribute to overconfidence in personal beliefs and can maintain or strengthen beliefs in the face of contrary evidence. Poor decisions due to these biases have been found in military, political, and organizational contexts.
smy_749
06-17-13, 03:51 PM
Good posts doberman. Though I believe science has far more 'leeway' in these matters, I'll agree philosophy and thinking outside the box due play a roll and have helped make important discoveries. Though it still returns back to science to confirm those theories. As for the present, I'll stick to my opinion that they don't feel as we feel, but like I said quite a few times in this thread, science isn't static, and if in the future the evidence is in favor of the other side, then great. (aside from the guilt trip of neglecting all my snakes who wanted to cuddle and watch lord of the rings marathons and I left them in their cages LOL)
Mikoh4792
06-17-13, 04:26 PM
Look mikoh. I'm not here to get into a pissing match with you. I have offered some insight and opinions as to why either side of the coin, whether it be science or philosophy, both have merit in topics of this nature. I haven't taken a side. It looks like you have though, and are expecting me to do the same. My intuition is that you would rather banter than explore.
And as far as being pseudo-intellectual, I have already beaten you to the punch. If you look at my prior posts, I included myself into that statement.
You suffer from "confirmation bias". You will only recognize and appreciate evidence that supports your position. All other ideas to the contrary will be ignored. It's like a virus mikoh and it limits your ability to learn. In fact it is a plague run amok on most internet forums including this one.
From Wikipedia
Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is a tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses.[Note 1][1] People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. For example, in reading about gun control, people usually prefer sources that affirm their existing attitudes. They also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position. Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), belief perseverance (when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false), the irrational primacy effect (a greater reliance on information encountered early in a series) and illusory correlation (when people falsely perceive an association between two events or situations).
A series of experiments in the 1960s suggested that people are biased toward confirming their existing beliefs. Later work re-interpreted these results as a tendency to test ideas in a one-sided way, focusing on one possibility and ignoring alternatives. In certain situations, this tendency can bias people's conclusions. Explanations for the observed biases include wishful thinking and the limited human capacity to process information. Another explanation is that people show confirmation bias because they are weighing up the costs of being wrong, rather than investigating in a neutral, scientific way.
Confirmation biases contribute to overconfidence in personal beliefs and can maintain or strengthen beliefs in the face of contrary evidence. Poor decisions due to these biases have been found in military, political, and organizational contexts.
Actually I haven't taken a side. I am just saying I will believe that snakes have affection/emotions towards human beings once it is proven. Until then I am not for or against the notion.
So in that case you are wrong. I do not have confirmation bias.
It's like a virus mikoh and it limits your ability to learn. In fact it is a plague run amok on most internet forums including this one.
Lol you can speak for yourself.
You suffer from mental masturbation
From Google:
Mental Masturbation
Web definitions
Engaging in intellectually stimulating conversation with little or no practical purpose
My baby snakes gave me a father's day card... can science explain that?
My two cents on the argument is that (like doberman said) people seek affirmation, not information. Most of us subscribe to the point of view that explains what we feel comfortable with, whether it concerns politics, religion, or snake love. I think it is clear here that neither side will convince the other of their truth.
smy_749
06-17-13, 07:38 PM
My two cents on the argument is that (like doberman said) people seek affirmation, not information. Most of us subscribe to the point of view that explains what we feel comfortable with, whether it concerns politics, religion, or snake love. I think it is clear here that neither side will convince the other of their truth.
I agree with this....to a point :P
Because me personally, I wish my snakes would feel affection. I love cats, and its enjoyable to have a pet which shows that type of behavior honestly. However, at the same time I'm not convinced in the slightest when it comes to snakes, although I wish more than anything that they loved me. :((((
Also, pics or it didn't happen with the birthday card.
KORBIN5895
06-17-13, 07:42 PM
I agree with this....to a point :P
Because me personally, I wish my snakes would feel affection. I love cats, and its enjoyable to have a pet which shows that type of behavior honestly. However, at the same time I'm not convinced in the slightest when it comes to snakes, although I wish more than anything that they loved me. :((((
Also, pics or it didn't happen with the birthday card.
I love cats too! They taste amazing with bulls eye BBQ sauce!
Well we all believe things that we do not want to believe, that is not what I meant by "feel comfortable with." I meant more along the lines that we seem to believe what we believe and admitting to ourselves we may be wrong is uncomfortable at times. And you caught me on the card. I do agree with you though, and I have had some extremely "affectionate" lizards. That is why my best friend is still my dog: because he brings me boxers when I get out of the shower.
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/diehardislanders/0518112300.jpg (http://s57.photobucket.com/user/diehardislanders/media/0518112300.jpg.html)
smy_749
06-17-13, 07:45 PM
I love cats too! They taste amazing with bulls eye BBQ sauce!
Never tried full grown cat, but kitten isn't bad and my snakes seem to like it as well. 2 birds with 1 stone.
smy_749
06-17-13, 07:46 PM
Well we all believe things that we do not want to believe, that is not what I meant by "feel comfortable with." I meant more along the lines that we seem to believe what we believe and admitting to ourselves we may be wrong is uncomfortable at times. And you caught me on the card. I do agree with you though, and I have had some extremely "affectionate" lizards. That is why my best friend is still my dog: because he brings me boxers when I get out of the shower.
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/diehardislanders/0518112300.jpg (http://s57.photobucket.com/user/diehardislanders/media/0518112300.jpg.html)
Thats pretty hilarious. lol
Aaron_S
06-18-13, 02:38 AM
Look mikoh. I'm not here to get into a pissing match with you. I have offered some insight and opinions as to why either side of the coin, whether it be science or philosophy, both have merit in topics of this nature. I haven't taken a side. It looks like you have though, and are expecting me to do the same. My intuition is that you would rather banter than explore.
And as far as being pseudo-intellectual, I have already beaten you to the punch. If you look at my prior posts, I included myself into that statement.
You suffer from "confirmation bias". You will only recognize and appreciate evidence that supports your position. All other ideas to the contrary will be ignored. It's like a virus mikoh and it limits your ability to learn. In fact it is a plague run amok on most internet forums including this one.
From Wikipedia
Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is a tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses.[Note 1][1] People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. For example, in reading about gun control, people usually prefer sources that affirm their existing attitudes. They also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position. Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), belief perseverance (when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false), the irrational primacy effect (a greater reliance on information encountered early in a series) and illusory correlation (when people falsely perceive an association between two events or situations).
A series of experiments in the 1960s suggested that people are biased toward confirming their existing beliefs. Later work re-interpreted these results as a tendency to test ideas in a one-sided way, focusing on one possibility and ignoring alternatives. In certain situations, this tendency can bias people's conclusions. Explanations for the observed biases include wishful thinking and the limited human capacity to process information. Another explanation is that people show confirmation bias because they are weighing up the costs of being wrong, rather than investigating in a neutral, scientific way.
Confirmation biases contribute to overconfidence in personal beliefs and can maintain or strengthen beliefs in the face of contrary evidence. Poor decisions due to these biases have been found in military, political, and organizational contexts.
As soon as I read "From Wikipedia" I knew your argument is garbage. Why may you ask? Because Wikipedia can be edited by ANYONE at ANYTIME. It's not a real source for information.
Aaron_S
06-18-13, 02:39 AM
My two cents on the argument is that (like doberman said) people seek affirmation, not information. Most of us subscribe to the point of view that explains what we feel comfortable with, whether it concerns politics, religion, or snake love. I think it is clear here that neither side will convince the other of their truth.
I'd like to believe you but your last sentence just isn't right. Science HAS proven to date (not saying it can't change) that snakes operate without emotions as we perceive them.
Are you telling me that we shouldn't call people what they are? If someone is doing something foolish we would call them a fool. If someone is picking on another person we call them a bully. When someone can't formulate a legitimate scientific argument to support their view but instead use pointless and totally irrelevant stories and unknown sources ghats pretty asinine and really stupid. Support your theory with facts first and observations seconds.
No, we do not need to refer to someone as a fool if s/he is acting foolishly. The most accurate comment would be that such a person is acting foolishly just as a human acting like a duck is not a duck. According to this site's poorly enforced rules, we do not have the privilege of insulting others but are required to be polite.
I asked for people's interpretations of two snake behaviours that I found odd. I didn't intend to encourage a meaningless exchange of insults. Rather than attack the views of another, why not explain your own interpretations of the question that this thread is named after and provide whatever sort of evidence you see fit to substantiate your viewpoint? May I suggest that you let me know what your interpretation of those two snake behaviours are, please.
I'd like to believe you but your last sentence just isn't right. Science HAS proven to date (not saying it can't change) that snakes operate without emotions as we perceive them.
Would you be so kind as to substantiate your claim with scientific evidence? As well, how would you interpret the two snake behaviours that I outlined at the very beginning of this thread?
Also, I'd like to clarify something. When I suggested that the behaviour of reaching up with its body toward my hand might indicate that Lily the yellow rat snake may enjoy a type of touch I never suggested that Lily was engaged in any moral decision-making exercise. Instead, I assume that snakes can feel both pleasure and pain and can act with both attraction and aversion. As a human caring for animals, I want to best provide for their needs. Some snakes do exhibit some social tendencies such as mating, group denning, and following each other's pheromone trails when exiting their wintering dens for the summer. I am certain that I am unable to provide the exact natural environment for this snake but would like to make its life as good and comfortable as possible. If it turns out that the snake's behaviours were social cues then I would like to know what they mean, hence this request for interpretations. I am more than certain that the snake doesn't "love" anything but that doesn't mean that I do not have an obligation as a good pet steward to try to provide for the animal's needs. That's the entire gist of my request.
Amadeus
06-18-13, 06:05 PM
This thread is preposterous.
Mikoh4792
06-18-13, 06:17 PM
This thread is preposterous.
Amen.
The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.
Ourobouros
06-19-13, 08:02 PM
I think it's fair to say most/if not all animals experience fear, which is technically an emotion... And it's useful in self preservation (generally speaking... We all know what deer in headlights refers to but there will always be exceptions to the rule). Of course I'm no scientist but it is something to at least consider...
And my apologies if I'm repeating something already mentioned.. Saw the multitude of grumpy responses and didn't feel like risking having to sort through 8 pages of that.. I'll take a proverbial back hand for being lazy and sticking my nose in here after the fact because I felt like it.
smy_749
06-19-13, 08:19 PM
I think it's fair to say most/if not all animals experience fear, which is technically an emotion... And it's useful in self preservation (generally speaking... We all know what deer in headlights refers to but there will always be exceptions to the rule). Of course I'm no scientist but it is something to at least consider...
And my apologies if I'm repeating something already mentioned.. Saw the multitude of grumpy responses and didn't feel like risking having to sort through 8 pages of that.. I'll take a proverbial back hand for being lazy and sticking my nose in here after the fact because I felt like it.
Explain the difference between fear, and genetically programmed to flee from potential threats. Even plants can curl up or close when predators touch them...But again, theres no way to prove that all animals feel 'fear' like we do. Maybe its easier to prove in dogs or cats, chimps, who make it clear, but reptiles don't show facial expressions or anything...
Ourobouros
06-19-13, 09:58 PM
Explain the difference between fear, and genetically programmed to flee from potential threats. Even plants can curl up or close when predators touch them...But again, theres no way to prove that all animals feel 'fear' like we do. Maybe its easier to prove in dog but what hence cats, chimps, who make it clear, but reptiles don't show facial expressions or anything...
Symptoms of anxiety suits fear quite well. Chemical reactions induced by changes in the environment are what spurn "emotions" and it's really not the same as inadvertent physical reactions like the reflex to pull your hand away from a hot stove though it's all governed by the brain. It's not about whether or not we think an animal fears dying like we do (generalized) but what changes in the body when facing a potential threat. You can feel fear without thinking about it. The fact that it's in the genes doesn't negate the argument that an animal can feel fear, or any other primitive emotion, like aggression.
The science of Fear | Laboratory News (http://www.labnews.co.uk/features/the-science-of-fear/)
Factoring Fear: What Scares Us and Why: Scientific American (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=factoring-fear-what-scares)
Reptile Emotions - Texas A&M Veterinary Medicine & Biomedical Sciences (http://vetmed.tamu.edu/news/pet-talk/reptile-emotions)
Ourobouros
06-19-13, 10:00 PM
And please don't bring up plants because they lack the physiology to be relevant here
Ourobouros
06-19-13, 10:39 PM
As soon as I read "From Wikipedia" I knew your argument is garbage. Why may you ask? Because Wikipedia can be edited by ANYONE at ANYTIME. It's not a real source for information.
I suggest you read the FAQ on Wikipedia before you go bashing it....
Wikipedia:FAQ/Overview - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:OFAQ#RESP)
Ourobouros
06-19-13, 11:07 PM
Also, I'd like to clarify something. When I suggested that the behaviour of reaching up with its body toward my hand might indicate that Lily the yellow rat snake may enjoy a type of touch I never suggested that Lily was engaged in any moral decision-making exercise. Instead, I assume that snakes can feel both pleasure and pain and can act with both attraction and aversion. As a human caring for animals, I want to best provide for their needs. Some snakes do exhibit some social tendencies such as mating, group denning, and following each other's pheromone trails when exiting their wintering dens for the summer. I am certain that I am unable to provide the exact natural environment for this snake but would like to make its life as good and comfortable as possible. If it turns out that the snake's behaviours were social cues then I would like to know what they mean, hence this request for interpretations. I am more than certain that the snake doesn't "love" anything but that doesn't mean that I do not have an obligation as a good pet steward to try to provide for the animal's needs. That's the entire gist of my request.
Pleasure, pain, fear and aggression are forms of primitive emotion. And although science shows snakes lack the cerebral capacity for love and anger in the way we do, they do agree that they can react favorably or unfavorably towards us based on certain stimuli. Your animals are more likely to favor you if you treat them well and visa versa with negative treatment. But animals are individuals and not all respond the same way in the same situations.
I totally get what you're saying here. This thread has unfortunately transformed into a debate of definitions referenced rather than a discussion of similar experiences...
DOBERMAN
06-19-13, 11:18 PM
Yes Aaron , Wikipedia doesn't work the way you have described. It is not trash. That is what was said years ago when they first came out and were finding their way. It's actually now a very concise summarization of information. Go do independent research on the topic "confirmation bias" with various different "reputable" sources and you will find that the wording and structure of the definition in Wikipedia actually is probably the most up to date, relevant and practical definition. As is with most topics on that site. Nowadays it is the "experts" that contribute and write up on the topics found within Wikipedia. Irony that you are exhibiting the symptoms of the exact topic that I have referenced
Mikoh4792
06-19-13, 11:39 PM
Yes Aaron , Wikipedia doesn't work the way you have described. It is not trash. That is what was said years ago when they first came out and were finding their way. It's actually now a very concise summarization of information. Go do independent research on the topic "confirmation bias" with various different "reputable" sources and you will find that the wording and structure of the definition in Wikipedia actually is probably the most up to date, relevant and practical definition. As is with most topics on that site. Nowadays it is the "experts" that contribute and write up on the topics found within Wikipedia. Irony that you are exhibiting the symptoms of the exact topic that I have referenced
The only thing that is ironic is that you are falsely accusing people of suffering from confirmation bias. I don't care whether or not your source for the definition of the word is valid. The fact is, I never actually took a side in this debate and yet you wrote an essay about me suffering from confirmation bias. Therefore your argument for using Wikipedia as a source has no merit to begin with.
You just like to judge and label people to justify your arguments. Most of those times your judgements are wrong.
Ourobouros
06-19-13, 11:47 PM
V_______________________v
Aaron_S
06-20-13, 12:16 AM
I suggest you read the FAQ on Wikipedia before you go bashing it....
Wikipedia:FAQ/Overview - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:OFAQ#RESP)
That's nice...
Maybe it's changed, but last I heard that universities would NOT allow it as a credible source when you hand in a paper. If this is no longer true, prove it to me.
Aaron_S
06-20-13, 12:26 AM
Would you be so kind as to substantiate your claim with scientific evidence? As well, how would you interpret the two snake behaviours that I outlined at the very beginning of this thread?
Just because I'm not ready to go to bed yet I'll humour you.
Here are the parts from the first post. I have not seen these actions in person so it's a little tougher to describe the behaviour off in the information given. I'll try though.
1. he will often arch his back up toward my finger. I can slowly pull it away about an inch (2.5 cm) and he will follow with his arched back. I have considered that this may be a negative reaction intended to push me away but his normal reaction to unwanted stimuli is to retreat into his 'burrow' made from PVC piping. If this is a negative response then it is an unusual one compared to all the other times he doesn't like something and wants to get away.
He doesn't want you touching him. It's a defense a lot of snakes use. They "throw" or "push" their body towards what they don't like near it instead of biting. They do have times where they are less tolerant of us and will react differently so I wouldn't say it's something simply because he didn't flee. Lots of animals sit still in hope the predator doesn't see them. Maybe he's making himself look bigger to "shoo" you away?
2. he sometimes begin moving in a very jerky fashion, with sudden and repeated twitchy, even convulsive motions. He maintains his interest in the touch and tends to not recoil when it investigates and realizes that the source is human. Once he even slid two thirds of his body off of his perch and onto my hand.
This would simply be breeding behaviour to me. Regardless of what you're doing or your hand that's what it seems like. Doesn't matter if he ended up in your hand or not. Snakes are pretty dull, he easily could have thought your hand was a warm branch and decided to move onto it. Nothing to do with YOU or emotions.
Lastly, it's already been stated reptiles don't have the limbic system to have emotions. If you'd like some sources brought to you I think you would be the one to need to bring them to us as well. You have brought anecdotes and conjecture.
Mikoh4792
06-20-13, 12:44 AM
Yes Aaron , Wikipedia doesn't work the way you have described. It is not trash. That is what was said years ago when they first came out and were finding their way. It's actually now a very concise summarization of information.
Just to add on this, are you sure you know what the word concise means? If you've ever read a wikipedia article you'd know it's far from concise.
Ourobouros
06-20-13, 01:00 AM
That's nice...
Maybe it's changed, but last I heard that universities wouldn't allow it as a credible source when you hand in a paper. If this is no longer true, prove it to me.
Well universities also tell you to use multiple sources and not put all your eggs in one basket. But appealing to authority does nothing to downplay Wikipedia's accuracy. Just because it's not one of the officially "trusted" resources does not render it useless. In fact, many articles include citations from sources that universities would approve. Wikipedia simply condenses many various sources cited into one place and saves time.
Now, I trust you've read through the entire FAQ prior to asking me to prove an irrelevant point? Because the negative connotations linked to Wikipedia's reliability isn't stopping you from taking 5 minutes to Google search other sources on the discussion to check others' information before you say they're wrong.
Ourobouros
06-20-13, 01:30 AM
Just to add on this, are you sure you know what the word concise means? If you've ever read a wikipedia article you'd it's far from concise.
I'm not agreeing with what you were accused of but Wikipedia has actually been very useful and very accurate for my own research. If there is missing information or anything in an article that cannot be validated with citations there will be an advisory warning the reader...
However it is always good practice to review multiple resources for accuracy.
Mikoh4792
06-20-13, 01:45 AM
I'm not agreeing with what you were accused of but Wikipedia has actually been very useful and very accurate for my own research. If there is missing information or anything in an article that cannot be validated with citations there will be an advisory warning the reader...
However it is always good practice to review multiple resources for accuracy.
I know but I never doubted wikipedia as a good source of information. I'm just negating Doberman's assertion that the articles are concise. I think he's just trying to sound smart but I guess he slipped up on that.
Aaron_S
06-20-13, 08:32 AM
Well universities also tell you to use multiple sources and not put all your eggs in one basket. But appealing to authority does nothing to downplay Wikipedia's accuracy. Just because it's not one of the officially "trusted" resources does not render it useless. In fact, many articles include citations from sources that universities would approve. Wikipedia simply condenses many various sources cited into one place and saves time.
Now, I trust you've read through the entire FAQ prior to asking me to prove an irrelevant point? Because the negative connotations linked to Wikipedia's reliability isn't stopping you from taking 5 minutes to Google search other sources on the discussion to check others' information before you say they're wrong.
Actually, I've got plenty to read through. I've made an entire thread upon this whole thread's topic. Go look for it. I'm still sorting through the material I gathered when I started that, mostly because I have been lazy and haven't put a lot of time into it.
I won't argue about Wiki anymore because it's pointless.
Ourobouros
06-20-13, 02:43 PM
Actually, I've got plenty to read through. I've made an entire thread upon this whole thread's topic. Go look for it. I'm still sorting through the material I gathered when I started that, mostly because I have been lazy and haven't put a lot of time into it.
I won't argue about Wiki anymore because it's pointless.
Go look for it? And waste more of my time? Lol I'm happy it's over
Dear God...please make the madness stop.....
smy_749
06-20-13, 07:17 PM
Dear God...please make the madness stop.....
Lol, once wikipedia became a primary source of information, and people start linking to random sh$% they found typing it in google, I'm all done. Theres no competing with people who personify animals, they live in unicorn land.
Amadeus
06-20-13, 07:17 PM
Lol, once wikipedia became a primary source of information, and people start linking to random sh$% they found typing it in google, I'm all done. Theres no competing with people who personify animals, they live in unicorn land.
el oh el....
Ourobouros
06-20-13, 08:49 PM
Lol, once wikipedia became a primary source of information, and people start linking to random sh$% they found typing it in google, I'm all done. Theres no competing with people who personify animals, they live in unicorn land.
http://www.entertainmentwallpaper.com/images/desktops/movie/harold_kumar_escape_from_guantanamo_bay07.jpg
DOBERMAN
06-20-13, 11:21 PM
I know but I never doubted wikipedia as a good source of information. I'm just negating Doberman's assertion that the articles are concise. I think he's just trying to sound smart but I guess he slipped up on that.
Do you know what concise is?
Brief compact understandable information yet containing all the important and relevant details.
That's what wikipedia offers and it is really good at it.
So you don't have to spend a year reading 10 different textbooks on the topic to come to the same assessment.
Seriously what is your major malfunction???
I am not replying to you anymore. I can't bear your intellectual insecurities.
Mikoh4792
06-21-13, 12:12 AM
Do you know what concise is?
Brief compact understandable information yet containing all the important and relevant details.
That's what wikipedia offers and it is really good at it.
So you don't have to spend a year reading 10 different textbooks on the topic to come to the same assessment.
Seriously what is your major malfunction???
I am not replying to you anymore. I can't bear your intellectual insecurities.
If you can't bear it, it's no one's problem but yours.
Let's just keep talking about Wikipedia and avoid the part where you wrongly accused me of confirmation bias. Talk about intellectual insecurity.
KORBIN5895
06-21-13, 08:12 AM
And people think I'm a prick.
And people think I'm a prick.
That made me lawl..... :)
KORBIN5895
06-21-13, 08:35 AM
That made me lawl..... :)
First off it's a true story. Secondly most of this thread makes me just shake my head. As a matter of fact a lot of the recent posts and posters make me shake my head.
..... As a matter of fact a lot of the recent posts and posters make me shake my head.
Me too! Apparently we DO have something in common. LOL, who knew?
I wish the mods here had some guts: on some forums, all of the bickering on this thread would have been deleted as "off-topic". ;)
KORBIN5895
06-21-13, 12:19 PM
Me too! Apparently we DO have something in common. LOL, who knew?
I wish the mods here had some guts: on some forums, all of the bickering on this thread would have been deleted as "off-topic". ;)
Not only so we have that in common but I also have quite a bit of respect for you. I may not agree with you often but I think you're solid.
DOBERMAN
06-21-13, 09:24 PM
And people think I'm a prick.
Oh don't worry about your prick status.
You still hold the heavyweight title.
However, I'm in training to be a contender :p
And people think I'm a prick.
I will be perfectly honest- I did used to think that about you Korbin. The more I read around on this site, the more I find that you do know your stuff, and you do try to help people. I do maintain however that you have absolutely no tolerance for what you deem stupidity lol.
KORBIN5895
06-22-13, 06:23 AM
Oh don't worry about your prick status.
You still hold the heavyweight title.
However, I'm in training to be a contender :p
Good, I was getting a little worried there.
@ franks
I think promoting stupidity should be a ban able offense.
Not only so we have that in common but I also have quite a bit of respect for you. I may not agree with you often but I think you're solid.
I can feel the love....:rolleyes:
Wow, I suppose I shouldnt be surprised by this thread. I would like to congratulate Cory on keeping his cool and demeanor throughout a whole lot of nonsense in response to a valid post.
Once again, as is usually the case in this debate, the people who posted actual scientific evidence with credible references were ignored by everyone else. (Well done Cory and Zoonanny for actually showing some of your research) Sorry, but stating that reptiles dont have a limbic system and therefore cant have higher functioning is just as credible as saying my snake likes a good rub. They both have little to no research behind them and are merely subjective observations from an already formed opinion. You guys keep using those words "scientific evidence" like you knew what it meant, yet all your posts prove otherwise. Its a little disingenuous to say that one side has no evidence and is therefore stupid, yet also provide no evidence. It does however show that youve done no credible research either...
Amadeus
06-23-13, 10:09 AM
Wow, I suppose I shouldnt be surprised by this thread. I would like to congratulate Cory on keeping his cool and demeanor throughout a whole lot of nonsense in response to a valid post.
Once again, as is usually the case in this debate, the people who posted actual scientific evidence with credible references were ignored by everyone else. (Well done Cory and Zoonanny for actually showing some of your research) Sorry, but stating that reptiles dont have a limbic system and therefore cant have higher functioning is just as credible as saying my snake likes a good rub. They both have little to no research behind them and are merely subjective observations from an already formed opinion. You guys keep using those words "scientific evidence" like you knew what it meant, yet all your posts prove otherwise. Its a little disingenuous to say that one side has no evidence and is therefore stupid, yet also provide no evidence. It does however show that youve done no credible research either...
You shouldn't even read a thread like this unless you like angering yourself
Note- Snakes don't have higher brain function.
You shouldn't even read a thread like this unless you like angering yourself
Note- Snakes don't have higher brain function.
Oh nothing worth angry at here. A little sad maybe...
O.M.G........
(yes, I'm back in against my better judgement).......
Seriously?!?!?!?!? Jarich, dude I really respect you, however, if Cory is gonna put forth the theory that a snake likes a little tickle every now and then, he should be able to back that theory up with data. Yes, I said that the limbic system was lacking in reptiles. I figured that as a group of reptile enthusiasts, we'd all kinda know that. If not, I figured that with minimal digging we could all access that readily available information about reptilian brain development in comparison to mammalian brain development. Again, my data is about 100 yrs of published neuroanatomy. From my personal dissection and study of about 6 brains from the phyllum Chordata to my post graduate training. I'm stating fact that a reptiles brain is peanuts compared to ours. Can I say definitively that a reptile can absolutely, unequivocally not dig a really good massage? No, but I can say that evidence points away from that. And further, the one postulating something different is the one who should be able to sway the skeptics. Even ZooNanny's link to the paper confirmed this:
As indicated in Table 1, many of the pallial differences between reptiles and birds are more those of degree in the development of areas than ones involving major shifts of connections. The Wulst and dorsal ventricular ridge regions of birds are substantially expanded in comparison with the corresponding regions in reptiles. This difference is reflected in the jump in brain-body ratios between reptiles and birds (Jerison, 2001; Nieuwenhuys et al., 1998). The brain-body ratios of amphibians are even less than those in reptiles (Jerison, 2001), and as discussed above, their forebrains lack the thalamopallial circuitry of amniote brains. Although consciousness, even of a higher level, cannot be ruled out in reptiles or amphibians, if such thalamopallial circuitry is crucial to its generation in birds and mammals, it is possible that reptiles have consciousness to a substantially lesser degree, and amphibians may or may not have alternate neural systems to support it.
This is ONE paper on the subject...and trust me, there are 1000's more out there on this same subject. I can't say conclusively that my JCP doesn't like it when I rub her tummy, but I can darn sure make an educated guess that until the data supports that supposition, I shouldn't going around saying that she does and not expect to be challenged on it...
lady_bug87
06-23-13, 02:20 PM
I just can't believe this is still going.... clearly we have too much time on our hands
I just can't believe this is still going.... clearly we have too much time on our hands
It's a lazy Sunday..... :)
lady_bug87
06-23-13, 02:59 PM
Come on over. I have lots for you to do aside from arguing the same asinine points over and over again
Come on over. I have lots for you to do aside from arguing the same asinine points over and over again
Ok, deal...just no plumbing or electrical stuff
O.M.G........
(yes, I'm back in against my better judgement).......
Seriously?!?!?!?!? Jarich, dude I really respect you, however, if Cory is gonna put forth the theory that a snake likes a little tickle every now and then, he should be able to back that theory up with data. Yes, I said that the limbic system was lacking in reptiles. I figured that as a group of reptile enthusiasts, we'd all kinda know that. If not, I figured that with minimal digging we could all access that readily available information about reptilian brain development in comparison to mammalian brain development. Again, my data is about 100 yrs of published neuroanatomy. From my personal dissection and study of about 6 brains from the phyllum Chordata to my post graduate training. I'm stating fact that a reptiles brain is peanuts compared to ours. Can I say definitively that a reptile can absolutely, unequivocally not dig a really good massage? No, but I can say that evidence points away from that. And further, the one postulating something different is the one who should be able to sway the skeptics. Even ZooNanny's link to the paper confirmed this:
As indicated in Table 1, many of the pallial differences between reptiles and birds are more those of degree in the development of areas than ones involving major shifts of connections. The Wulst and dorsal ventricular ridge regions of birds are substantially expanded in comparison with the corresponding regions in reptiles. This difference is reflected in the jump in brain-body ratios between reptiles and birds (Jerison, 2001; Nieuwenhuys et al., 1998). The brain-body ratios of amphibians are even less than those in reptiles (Jerison, 2001), and as discussed above, their forebrains lack the thalamopallial circuitry of amniote brains. Although consciousness, even of a higher level, cannot be ruled out in reptiles or amphibians, if such thalamopallial circuitry is crucial to its generation in birds and mammals, it is possible that reptiles have consciousness to a substantially lesser degree, and amphibians may or may not have alternate neural systems to support it.
This is ONE paper on the subject...and trust me, there are 1000's more out there on this same subject. I can't say conclusively that my JCP doesn't like it when I rub her tummy, but I can darn sure make an educated guess that until the data supports that supposition, I shouldn't going around saying that she does and not expect to be challenged on it...
MDT, I too normally respect your posts, so lets not get too excited here. No one said that reptile's brains are as developed as humans, I dont think that was ever the topic of discussion. Nor did Cory say that they had some sort of higher consciousness. What he said, and simply asked about, was that he made an observation that it appeared like his snake found it pleasurable to be touched. If you think that there is 100 years of research stating this is not the case, you need to go back and check closer. While we are aware of the form of the brain in reptiles, we are not altogether aware of the function. Comparative anatomy only goes so far. I too dissected many in my studies, and I actually studied comparative neuroanatomy specifically. What I know about the brain is that it is an incredibly plastic organ, and function has been found not to be a result of form many times.
The point is, the greatest minds in this field, who have studied this for 30-40 years straight, do not have a consensus on the degree and function of the various parts of the brain in reptiles. That article Zoonanny posted was the culmination of the fact that what was always supposed about the nature and function of lower vertebrate brains is not so easily explained. They are using various parts of their brains for functions other than what we thought those were strictly used for. This is very important information. Whats more, no one on this thread has done more than a days research on the topic, if theyre lucky. As a matter of fact, Id go as far as to say everyone altogether on this thread hasnt done more than a days research in total. So for anyone on this forum to make fun of others and call them stupid and unscientific for their opinions seems both hypocritical and a little ridiculous. Cory stated an observation, and asked for opinions. So far he and Zoonanny were the only ones to come up with any research to try to back up their points. Saying there are 1000s of articles and 100s of years of research pointing to something is another way of saying you probably havent done any yourself. So I ask you go take a look. See if, after doing some actual research on this exact subject, you really think its such a simple, one-sided argument. I have no doubt you will find out fairly quickly that it is still very much up for debate.
While I think anthropomorphizing is a mistake, I also think that the idea that they absolutely cant share any traits is just as silly. There is a whole field of research in zoology called enrichment that deals specifically with stimulating the minds of animals in captive situations. There is very good reason for that, and it extends to reptiles.
Saying there are 1000s of articles and 100s of years of research pointing to something is another way of saying you probably havent done any yourself. Am I published in this field? No. Have I had to do research and study in comparative anatomy, developmental anatomy and embryology and the like? Yes. So I ask you go take a look. See if, after doing some actual research on this exact subject, you really think its such a simple, one-sided argument. I have no doubt you will find out fairly quickly that it is still very much up for debate. Not entirely one sided, but pretty weighted (at least at this point)
While I think anthropomorphizing is a mistake, I also think that the idea that they absolutely cant share any traits is just as silly. There is a whole field of research in zoology called enrichment that deals specifically with stimulating the minds of animals in captive situations. There is very good reason for that, and it extends to reptiles.
I still have love for you brother :)
You too man ;)
My posts were not so much directed at you. I know you have background knowledge and an understanding of neuranatomical form. It was more for those who felt justified in calling others stupid for having an opposing opinion when they have just as cursory an understanding of what they are discussing.
Its a shame as this topic is really very interesting when you read the research from those who know what they're talking about. The degree of difference in function between species, in what were supposed to be static forms, is incredible. Less so in non-avian reptiles, but still really impressive and interesting. Unfortunately, the topic is never as interesting on forums as its usually just a bunch of preconceived notions on both sides that reverts to name calling in the end. Oh well, maybe one day.
KORBIN5895
06-23-13, 07:31 PM
Actually I'm always justified in calling people stupid.
Stupid is as stupid does?
KORBIN5895
06-23-13, 10:14 PM
Stupid is as stupid does?
I have had enough first hand experience that I'm able to spot it a mile away.
Ourobouros
06-23-13, 10:16 PM
Your hubris is amusing
Mikoh4792
06-23-13, 10:39 PM
Actually I'm always justified in calling people stupid.
You're very passionate about calling people stupid lol.
KORBIN5895
06-23-13, 11:21 PM
You're very passionate about calling people stupid lol.
No, I am only passionate about calling stupid people stupid. Most stupid people don't realize they're stupid. It's really kinda sad.
Mikoh4792
06-23-13, 11:45 PM
Most stupid people don't realize they're stupid. It's really kinda sad.
That's because they are stupid.
No, I am only passionate about calling stupid people stupid. Most stupid people don't realize they're stupid. It's really kinda sad.
A good lesson for us all to keep in mind
No, I am only passionate about calling stupid people stupid. Most stupid people don't realize they're stupid. It's really kinda sad.
LOL come work for us for a week and we can show you a whole new level of stupid.
Ourobouros
06-24-13, 04:06 PM
LOL come work for us for a week and we can show you a whole new level of stupid.
Or work at a call center for tech support... The dumbest of the dumb call in to those places. I had a lady tell me to send a tech out to mow the lawn in an abandoned lot near her house..... And then said she felt sorry for me when I told her cable techs don't do that....
smy_749
06-24-13, 05:09 PM
Or work at a call center for tech support... The dumbest of the dumb call in to those places. I had a lady tell me to send a tech out to mow the lawn in an abandoned lot near her house..... And then said she felt sorry for me when I told her cable techs don't do that....
hahahahahahaah
My job is the best. I bring heroine addicts to a drug and alcohol clinic 7 days a week and I swear, there is NOTHING left up there. Most of the people I bring are regulars, and there is one shining star in the group. We got into the topic of reptiles and what not, and he asked me if humans were cold blooded. I've been bringing him for 6 months , 7 days a week now, so I can assure you he wasn't joking. Some other things include if Arabic is a country, "that moon looks like the one from yesterday" , that if he spent 100 dollars on lottery tickets (which he does) and he won 20 bucks back, that he made money.
Pareeeee
06-24-13, 05:48 PM
I'm just going to join in now to post:
LOL at this whole thread. It's ridiculous. :rolleyes:
Amadeus
06-24-13, 09:42 PM
I'm just going to join in now to post:
LOL at this whole thread. It's ridiculous. :rolleyes:
agreed...
The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.
Ryodraco
06-27-13, 08:20 PM
Ignoring all the name calling and pointless insults in this thread, I am glad at least for the posts addressing how reptilian brains use different parts for different functions compared to mammalian brains and because of this we can't be sure of their capabilities. That is much more reasonable than stating they have human thoughts or emotions or that they lack thoughts and emotions completely.
Amadeus
06-27-13, 08:24 PM
Ignoring all the name calling and pointless insults in this thread, I am glad at least for the posts addressing how reptilian brains use different parts for different functions compared to mammalian brains and because of this we can't be sure of their capabilities. That is much more reasonable than stating they have human thoughts or emotions or that they lack thoughts and emotions completely.
They do lack any emotion...
No, I am only passionate about calling stupid people stupid. Most stupid people don't realize they're stupid. It's really kinda sad.
Hahahaha
- h3
Ryodraco
06-27-13, 09:46 PM
They do lack any emotion...
Again with this certainty of yours, what of the posts explaining how basic emotions like fear can apply to reptiles? You don't even have to think to feel fear. What of the posts speaking of how the lack of certain parts of the brain does not mean a lack of that function in the brain?
To me it sounds like you are using a very narrow definition of emotion, though it is hard to tell given how short your response is. Perhaps you could explain how you are defining emotion.
Ourobouros
06-27-13, 11:45 PM
Again with this certainty of yours, what of the posts explaining how basic emotions like fear can apply to reptiles? You don't even have to think to feel fear. What of the posts speaking of how the lack of certain parts of the brain does not mean a lack of that function in the brain?
To me it sounds like you are using a very narrow definition of emotion, though it is hard to tell given how short your response is. Perhaps you could explain how you are defining emotion.
the reason those posts are ignored is because certain individuals are configured with overly aggressive mental content blockers. A full factory reset should fix this if the configuration is corrupt however if this is the default state then you'll need to contact a specialist for changing any advanced settings.
Amadeus
06-28-13, 10:33 AM
the reason those posts are ignored is because certain individuals are configured with overly aggressive mental content blockers. A full factory reset should fix this if the configuration is corrupt however if this is the default state then you'll need to contact a specialist for changing any advanced settings.
I don't like you, stop trying to impress me when you get up every morning.
lady_bug87
06-28-13, 10:52 AM
I don't like you, stop trying to impress me when you get up every morning.
Hahaha awesome
Mark Taylor
06-28-13, 11:01 AM
Hahaha awesome
Sarcasm at it's best? lol.
lady_bug87
06-28-13, 11:03 AM
Sarcasm at it's best? lol.
Not even! I was being sincere
Mark Taylor
06-28-13, 12:07 PM
I miss read my bad. It just wasn't funny to me seeing as it is her sig.:)
Ourobouros
06-28-13, 06:54 PM
lol if i was striving to impress any of the numerous conceited people on this forum I would have shot myself already. heck who walks around trying to impress anyone? that's grade school crap. everyone here is so predictable. it was only a matter of time before someone commented on the signature lol.
oh..and i suppose someone is going to suggest that i actually shoot myself. eventually..just wait for it.... >;D i'll shoot myself up with some of my meds and go take a nice coma in prep for the onslaught of the fast and furious calls tomorrow...ugh!
Ourobouros
06-28-13, 06:56 PM
Not even! I was being sincere
oh, stop, it hurts....
LOL
Aaron_S
06-28-13, 07:09 PM
lol if i was striving to impress any of the numerous conceited people on this forum I would have shot myself already. heck who walks around trying to impress anyone? that's grade school crap. everyone here is so predictable. it was only a matter of time before someone commented on the signature lol.
oh..and i suppose someone is going to suggest that i actually shoot myself. eventually..just wait for it.... >;D i'll shoot myself up with some of my meds and go take a nice coma in prep for the onslaught of the fast and furious calls tomorrow...ugh!
You know what...people may say things on here and I'm one of them but honestly, telling someone to kill themselves is just horrible. I would never wish that upon someone.
smy_749
06-28-13, 07:19 PM
Your comments here are extremely childish @ Oboohoo or whatever. And I'd pretty sure you try to impress people, its wired into your brain. Just people do it differently, some with clothes, some with speech, some with stupid nonsense forum posts seeking attention after they said they'd leave already because they would like to prove some point that no one cares or even knows what it is anymore....
lol if i was striving to impress any of the numerous conceited people on this forum I would have shot myself already. heck who walks around trying to impress anyone? that's grade school crap. everyone here is so predictable. it was only a matter of time before someone commented on the signature lol.
oh..and i suppose someone is going to suggest that i actually shoot myself. eventually..just wait for it.... >;D i'll shoot myself up with some of my meds and go take a nice coma in prep for the onslaught of the fast and furious calls tomorrow...ugh!
Dude...not cool. No one is gonna suggest you hurt yourself......Just let it go. Chill out and learn where you can, give instruction where applicable.
How old are you anyway?
Amadeus
06-28-13, 09:33 PM
Dude...not cool. No one is gonna suggest you hurt yourself......Just let it go. Chill out and learn where you can, give instruction where applicable.
How old are you anyway?
I'll take that question. She is roughly 14
KORBIN5895
06-28-13, 10:56 PM
lol if i was striving to impress any of the numerous conceited people on this forum I would have shot myself already. heck who walks around trying to impress anyone? that's grade school crap. everyone here is so predictable. it was only a matter of time before someone commented on the signature lol.
oh..and i suppose someone is going to suggest that i actually shoot myself. eventually..just wait for it.... >;D i'll shoot myself up with some of my meds and go take a nice coma in prep for the onslaught of the fast and furious calls tomorrow...ugh!
I so had her pegged.
I will say that as someone what has had go deal with a suicidal loved one that she is pretty much scum.
For the last time, I will try to get everyone back on track here... Some yellow dude kissed a rat snake, how does that make you feel?
Mikoh4792
06-29-13, 12:13 AM
For the last time, I will try to get everyone back on track here... Some yellow dude kissed a rat snake, how does that make you feel?
Makes me feel all oogly googly inside.
EDIT: yellow dude kissed a rat snake or a dude kissed a yellow rat snake? Or a yellow dude kissed a yellow rat snake?
Makes me feel all oogly googly inside.
EDIT: yellow dude kissed a rat snake or a dude kissed a yellow rat snake? Or a yellow dude kissed a yellow rat snake?
Hmmmm..... Dont remember anymore honestly lol.
Mark Taylor
06-29-13, 01:15 AM
lol if i was striving to impress any of the numerous conceited people on this forum I would have shot myself already. heck who walks around trying to impress anyone? that's grade school crap. everyone here is so predictable. it was only a matter of time before someone commented on the signature lol.
oh..and i suppose someone is going to suggest that i actually shoot myself. eventually..just wait for it.... >;D i'll shoot myself up with some of my meds and go take a nice coma in prep for the onslaught of the fast and furious calls tomorrow...ugh!
Were the eck did that come from :Wow:
KORBIN5895
06-29-13, 07:49 AM
Were the eck did that come from :Wow:
She was psychotic.
StudentoReptile
06-29-13, 08:21 AM
How is this thread not closed yet?
KORBIN5895
06-29-13, 10:31 AM
Why would it be?
Amadeus
06-29-13, 10:51 AM
How is this thread not closed yet?
It has too much good info on it. ;)
DOBERMAN
06-30-13, 10:37 PM
To close it would be a shame and travesty;
Because, this thread has the best ssnakess and any other forum has to offer.
And yet....unfortunately, You've got to sort throught the despicable and grotesque to extract it.
Having said that, the mods do need to clean up the non-pertinent and childish filler
Amadeus
06-30-13, 11:07 PM
To close it would be a shame and travesty;
Because, this thread has the best ssnakess and any other forum has to offer.
And yet....unfortunately, You've got to sort throught the despicable and grotesque to extract it.
Having said that, the mods do need to clean up the non-pertinent and childish filler
They are not here to treat us like infants. If we violate the rules that is a different matter.
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