Advice needed: Dumerils-to buy or not?

[KWenger]

I presently have two BPs (one adult normal and one yearling BEL) and an adult corn snake. I want to add a boa to my collection.....I owned a red tail years ago that grew to be too big & I had to find her a new home......After several weeks of careful research I have decided a male Dumerils would best meet my criteria of good temperament, moderate adult size and generally easy husbandry requirements. I've been looking on kingsnake.com and other sites and have found a number of male Dumerils for sale. The past couple of days I have been communicating with a very nice guy named James at Prehistoric Pets in California. They presently have several Dumerils hatchlings available as well as one male juvenile (about 18 mos old and 550 grams weight) and a young adult male (exact age unknown) described as being about 6 feet long and 2150 grams. I've seen photographs of both and they look good. The younger one is lighter in color and better looking, but that isn't important to me as I am only looking for a pet. I think I would prefer to not get a baby, so I'm now trying to decide between the juvenile and the adult. Maybe. James assures me that both are tame and in good health, although he did say the larger one was a "little jumpy" but had never attempted to bite anyone. Prices are reasonable and I've checked out Prehistoric Pets on the BOI. Generally positive reviews. I feel comfortable dealing with them. My biggest concern is that all the Dumerils at Prehistoric Pets are being fed live prey and always have been. I absolutely DO NOT want to feed live food to any of my snakes. Not now, not ever. Period. That's a big deal to me. I explained this to James and he said he was "positive" I wouldn't have any difficulty transitioning one of their Dumerils from live to f/t because they have strong feeding responses. What do you think? I did switch my corn from live to f/t when I got him and it was easy. Then again, my corn snake will eat just about anything you put in front of him. I have no experience with Dumerils and have read that they can be more finicky eaters than other boas. Should I accept James' assurance that I'll easily be able to switch one of their snakes to f/t? Also, I want to have the enclosure well regulated before I get the snake, regardless of what I end of getting. I was about to order a model 422D from Boaphile (size 4 feet long, 2 feet wide, 17" high) but now I'm concerned that would be too big if I got the juvenile. Opinion? I am very aware that a too large enclosure can cause severe stress for a BP...but what about a Dumerils? I would prefer to simply house the snake in his "forever" cage from the get go.......but perhaps that is a bad idea? If you think the 422D is too big for the juvenile now, what size would you suggest for a temporary enclosure. Last question: Does anyone think I would be better off getting the adult? Size sounds OK and the price is the same. I hope to make my decision this week and would value the advice of those of you who are experienced with Dumerils. Thanks!

[smy_749]

I didn't read all of it. But big pet shops are salesmen, not your best buddy. Some snakes are just picky, simple as that. If you want to own alot of snakes, sooner or later you will have one that refuses to eat F/T. If its that important to you, you should atleast try to buy one already feeding on F/T because you just never know if he will come around or not.

[Snakesitter]

Good for you for checking out the BOI first -- caution pays.

Would they consider doing a test f/t feed for you?

The idea that snakes cannot handle large enclosures is a myth. Were it true, snakes would never survive in nature. So long as you give him enough hiding spots, he will be fine.

Good luck!

[NBLADE]

The full size viv would be fine for a juvenile dumerils, aslong as you put in plenty of hides and a nice deep substrate to allow for burrowing, as they will often sit with just their head out of the substrate waiting for prey to walk past and ambush it, so a deep substrate allows for them to feel secure.

Young dumerils can be very fussy feeders and a pain to get feeding, however once started and feeding well, they will generally take everything and anything offered to them, so with converting to defrost shouldn't be a huge problem, especially if you can get hold of some used bedding of what ever prey they are used to feeding on, and scent the dead with that and give them a body temperature you can often trick them into thinking it is a live animal.

[StudentoReptile]

I'll leave the dumerils discussion continue. I think they are great, albeit large snakes, even at 6 ft. Its a lot different from a 6 ft rat snake.

I absolutely DO NOT want to feed live food to any of my snakes. Not now, not ever. Period. That's a big deal to me.

If this is your stance, I would advise you not to get into snakes. Not now, not ever. Period. Yeah, many will convert easily to a prekilled diet, but not every one will. You will inevitably be faced with a finicky eater at some point, and what will you do? Have someone else feed it? Give the snake away to someone else? Live feeding to part of keeping & feeding any snake, regardless of species and the prey used. It is a reality anyone considering keeping snakes should accept.

Just curious...why are you so against live feeding?

[KWenger]

Well, you seem to be the very first person who has ever advised me that feeding live is a requirement for successful snake keeping. I've been in contact with many long time breeders of BPs, corns and various types of boas and most say they do not feed live and advise against it. I've got 3 or 4 books on keeping boa constrictors, and all say feeding live prey is generally a bad idea. My several Ball Python books say the same...Why am I so opposed to it? Personally I find it rather cruel and disgusting to feed a live rodent to a snake. Just a personal thing with me. Keep in mind I raised a red tail boa from a baby to something over 20 lbs over a number of years.....this was quite a few years ago......and I ALWAYS fed it live prey.....mice and later larger and larger rats. At the time I didn't know about the availability of f/t. Since I've begun keeping snakes again I find that I like the convenience of f/t......and I don't have to dread putting the cute mouse or rat in the viv with the snake. Perhaps I am just too soft hearted? Probably.

[KORBIN5895]

Well, you seem to be the very first person who has ever advised me that feeding live is a requirement for successful snake keeping. I've been in contact with many long time breeders of BPs, corns and various types of boas and most say they do not feed live and advise against it. I've got 3 or 4 books on keeping boa constrictors, and all say feeding live prey is generally a bad idea. My several Ball Python books say the same...Why am I so opposed to it? Personally I find it rather cruel and disgusting to feed a live rodent to a snake. Just a personal thing with me. Keep in mind I raised a red tail boa from a baby to something over 20 lbs over a number of years.....this was quite a few years ago......and I ALWAYS fed it live prey.....mice and later larger and larger rats. At the time I didn't know about the availability of f/t. Since I've begun keeping snakes again I find that I like the convenience of f/t......and I don't have to dread putting the cute mouse or rat in the viv with the snake. Perhaps I am just too soft hearted? Probably.

First off any royal breeder that says they.never feed live is probably full of it.

Secondly I totally agree with feeding only f/t.

Finally I would do a boi search on boaphile.

[StudentoReptile]

Well, you seem to be the very first person who has ever advised me that feeding live is a requirement for successful snake keeping. I've been in contact with many long time breeders of BPs, corns and various types of boas and most say they do not feed live and advise against it. I've got 3 or 4 books on keeping boa constrictors, and all say feeding live prey is generally a bad idea. My several Ball Python books say the same...Why am I so opposed to it? Personally I find it rather cruel and disgusting to feed a live rodent to a snake. Just a personal thing with me. Keep in mind I raised a red tail boa from a baby to something over 20 lbs over a number of years.....this was quite a few years ago......and I ALWAYS fed it live prey.....mice and later larger and larger rats. At the time I didn't know about the availability of f/t. Since I've begun keeping snakes again I find that I like the convenience of f/t......and I don't have to dread putting the cute mouse or rat in the viv with the snake. Perhaps I am just too soft hearted? Probably.

You're twisting my words a tiny bit. I did not say it is necessarily a requirement, but only that it is an inevitability that every snake keeper will face, even those who "exclusively" feed dead prey. Out of every snake that has ever been, currently in, or ever will be...kept in captivity, there will be specimens that will only accept live prey.

The cruel & disgusting excuse never ceases to astound me, but to each his own. I can never fully understand how some so-called reptile keepers have such aversion to something that is natural: snakes eat live prey in the wild!!! Yes, I do know there is some difference of feeding little white mice to captive snakes inside glass boxes and wild snakes going after frogs, lizards, wild wood rats, birds and fish in the wild....but if you have problems with this, seriously....you need to consider this. Do you have the same issues when bearded dragons eat live crickets and Dubia roaches, or are you just too sympathetic to little furry animals?

I personally don't go by many books these days, because anyone can write a book, blog, article or create a website these days. Just because its the written word doesn't make it gospel. That said, I know the pros and cons of all feeding methods. Personally, I cater to the individual needs of my animals, not the other way around. I don't force or starve my snakes to eat F/T if they will not, just because I am unwilling to feed them live. Some lizard- and frog-eaters will not always convert to rodents, and some live feeders will not always convert to dead prey. Its just something you roll with, but again, this is part of snake keeping, and something one should accept. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing really against F/T; I have used it in the past, and occasionally use it still. But honestly, after 20+ yrs of keeping reptiles, 10 yrs of that working in pet shops (Yes, I'm pulling the longevity/experience card on this one, Terranaut! lol), and been bitten by more rodents that I can count, I honestly don't give a flying crap about the rodents. They're not totally defenseless in my book.

Most here have heard my rant regarding the proper way to feed live. IMHO, a lot of keepers do this incorrectly, which leads to issues, and misgivings about it, which then leads to many regurgitated, and often inaccurate notions. If you are open-minded and want to get a more realistic perspective of the matter, I'll be more than happy to elaborate. But to answer your last question: Yes, I think you are being a little too soft-hearted about the subject. This is coming from someone who used to have a BP who refused to eat only hamsters for 5-6 yrs. I (and my wallet) begrudgingly obliged the snake during this period, which ironically, I had a pet hamster of my own during the episode. Despite the silly accusations of nay-sayers, I nor most keepers derive any sadistic pleasure out of feeding live prey to our snakes. It is simply an-often mundane task out of many, regarding husbandry. The only pleasure is ensuring my animals are not going hungry, and are feeding properly.

[StudentoReptile]

Mind you, I am not trying to convince you to feed your snake live. I'm only telling you that sooner or later (and I have witnessed this many times with people like you), that one of your snakes is going to give you fits because it won't eat F/T, or even prekilled, and you're going to whine "OMG, what am I going to do? What am I doing wrong? etc etc etc...It's not necessarily you; its the snake. You're trying to get a snake that has evolved for thousands of years to eat small ground lemurs, and wild rats or gerbils....to eat a white CBB European field mouse. It smells different, acts different, etc...some snakes don't want it....and then you're trying to convince it to eat a dead one. Its a leap.

[rocknhorse76]

If the adult male is 6' and only weighs 2150g, he's severely underweight. At 6', he should be nearly twice that weight.

[Snakesitter]

Well said.

[KWenger]

I decided to buy the juvenile Dumerils from Prehistoric pets after James agreed to keep the snake for a few weeks to transition him to f/t from live food. James is confident this wont be a problem, but if he is unable to get him to eat f/t prey the deal is off and my money will be refunded in full. They are charging me nothing to keep the snake and work on switching him to f/t which I think is fair. I believe the other Dumerils at Prehistoric Pets that is described as a "young adult" is actually shorter than 6 feet. Those who advised me that a 6 foot snake should weigh much more than I was told this one weighed were of course absolutely correct. I think the snake is actually closer to 4 feet or so. Looks like a healthy size in photographs. Also, after researching Boaphile and checking them out on the BOI, I decided to order a T-10 cage from Animal Plastics. Ali at Animal Plastics was terrific......extremely nice and helpful and did a great job helping me select the cage that best fit my needs. Boaphile never responded to my emails or telephone messages, so I gave up.

[StudentoReptile]

Sounds pretty typical of current Boaphile customer service these days. Animal Plastics on the other hand is great.