View Full Version : Feed Guide for Newbies (Rats v Mice)
Chris72
05-08-13, 03:12 PM
Rats Vs Mice,
I wanted to post something like this for a few weeks as I have seen a few members who:
Mention that they don't believe there is a difference between rats V mice.
Are feeding a size of rodent that is clearly wrong. (eg pinkies to 8 month old snakes)
Feed based on when the feeders are grown enough to offer to a snake.
A few things first:
Yes I have been gathering information from around the net for this post and I would like to acknowledge that (no) I did not simply sit down and bang this out off the top of my head. (I am not Aaron)
I offer this thread with 100% certainty that there are keepers who have healthy happy Royals with feeding programs that are largely different. this thread is not intended to challenge you. Rather it is intended to benefit the animals housed by those who have takes Pet Smart at face value on proper care. Be nice; we are on the same team people!
Overall mental and physical health of your animal will be based on an number of things which diet is only one (important) part. As most of us know the list includes, but is not limited to; proper heating type, proper temp, proper humidity, opportunity to seek cover, limited daily handling of nocturnal animals during a time when they should be resting, etc, etc.
Normal Diet in the wild:
Largely the african soft furred rat (looks more like a Gerbil) and depending on local and availability sometimes a shrew or stripped mouse. Most of us do not have access to African Soft Furred rats locally and thus we defer to the common rat.
That leaves us with two things to consider:
Nutritional value of Rats v Mice....
The right sized rodent to feed your Royal Python...
What to feed:
Rats, larger than mice, have larger skeletal systems, organs and more fur, Rats are also known for having a higher fat content compared to mice. Anecdotally, young snakes begin to grow like weeds once changed over to rats.
Per RodentPro....
A Juvenile Rat has:
Crude Protein: 56.1%
Crude Fat: 27.5%
Natural Ash: 14.8%
Energy as K/Cal:g 5.55 K/Cal
Vit- A & E (in Ui): 151,389 & 139.2
An Adult Domestic Mouse
Crude Protein: 55.8%
Crude Fat: 23.6%
Natural Ash: 11.8%
Energy as K/Cal:g 5.25 K/Cal
Vit- A & E (in Ui): 578,272 & 100.4
Additionally the adult mouse has statistically insignificantly higher levels of Calcium, Phosphorus and Magnesium. (basically a wash) However a sub adult rat will have a statistically higher level of both Fe (iron) and Zn (zinc) which have a direct correlation to many things including red blood cell count, O2 transfer and respiratory health (Fe), and overall immune system health (Zn).
The differences we see are what is going to account for the differences in growth of the animal overall. An interesting chart tracks the growth rate of animals raised on mice V rats. This should be viewed as anecdotal as other variables and feeding habits of the animals could not be confirmed. Nonetheless...interesting:
(Growth Chart: Feed Compare)
Chris72
05-08-13, 03:16 PM
How Much should my Royal Python be eating:
Simply put: Your snake should not be fed when the rats based on what you have on hand, what you feel like you can afford or when they grown large enough. (no names)
A) The size of the prey item given to a python should be equivalent to or slightly larger than the width of the largest part of its body.
If your supplier gave you a great deal on rat pups and your snake is now two inches in diameter you must feed more than one of those pup(pies) per week. In addition to the above statement (A) lets take a look at this sizing photo which gives us a visual and weight reference:
(Sizing chart and weight chart)
Chris72
05-08-13, 03:18 PM
AND The sizing chart:
Chris72
05-08-13, 03:19 PM
So if you have a healthy snake at 450g to 500g you are looking at the white rat 5 from the left or 4 from the right.(at the least)
The day I brought home my little Queen Bee (Charlotte) she devoured a live rat similar to the one third from the left...She was all of 7 inches long and was slightly heavier than a pencil. They were feeding he live and I wanted her to eat but she has since been switched to F/T. If you feed live (or stunned) remember that the rodent if fluffy and it is not actually as big as you think! (dip it in hot water and you'll see...but not alive!)
Now, there are protocols for starting and switching a hatchlings which we will not get into as that is not the focus of this thread. Live v F/T which again is not the focus of this thread.
Give you snake what it needs, in the quantity it needs and if you are thinking to yourself: "There is no way that rat will go in that snake"....try....you are probably wrong. :)
Have fun....welcome...if you are not sure...ask. :)
Aaron_S
05-08-13, 03:21 PM
Do you have a lot of time on your hands lately?
Solid write up though.
Chris72
05-08-13, 03:52 PM
Been gathering that for weeks! (Takes time fir us mere mortals). But thanks! :)
An interesting write up, but still sort of misses the point in my opinion. Both are perfectly acceptable food items, if fed in quantity.
While the amounts you are speaking of regarding the different vitamins and minerals may be true, you dont go into the actual requirements of the animal. Though one may have a statistically significant amount more than the other, the question remains: is that necessary? Does the rat lack the necessary calcium? Does the mouse not have enough iron or zinc? As there is no evidence to support those claims, it appears that this is not the case.
Your growth rate chart also stops at four months. What happens after? What happens when both groups are raised to adults? Would this chart then even out? If so, what difference does it make how quickly they grow? It also does not state a source so that we can check out how many were used in each group (is it statistically significant or were there only one or two animals used in each group). How many mice were fed and how many rats? Were the subjects all from different family lines or not? Obviously genetics will play a large role in growth rates also.
While it seems you spent some good time on this, it also seems you have researched to back up your preconceived notion as opposed to researching to find out the answer. When you are talking the difference between mice and rats, the amount you feed your snake seems much more important than which is fed. The rest is simply preference.
The growth of ball python after four months would still show a huge difference in size. I have fed female balls exclusively mice and they take a LONG time to get to size (years longer than rat-fed females).
Chris72
05-08-13, 05:21 PM
An interesting write up, but still sort of misses the point in my opinion. Both are perfectly acceptable food item if fed........ ................... .......................... more important than which is fed. The rest is simply preference.
The point of the thread is mainly to benefit newbies with newly purchased snakes>>as noted above.
We have recently seen some stunningly wrong activities by some newbies where in one particular instance the snake died.
Guessing that newbies lurk for sometime before they ask any questions this thread may have saved an animals life.
Before I said a word I recognized those that prefer mice in an attempt to show respect for that choice.
The thread was not intended to be an indepth brawl on rodent choice as I made clear in the O.P. (we can do that elsewhere please)
Give you snake what it needs, in the quantity it needs and if you are thinking to yourself: "There is no way that rat will go in that snake"....try....you are probably wrong. :)
This. I had one of those WTF moments this week with my normal BCI. She has been pounding small rats and two days after her last feeding she was out hunting. I looked at her, then looked at her, and warmed up a medium f/t rat even though inwardly I was thinking "no way".
Way. It went down the hatch and she spent the next four days in her hot side hide. My little girl is growing up.
Starbuck
05-08-13, 05:37 PM
Do you have sources for your information, or is this from personal experience and calculations?
Chris72
05-08-13, 06:16 PM
Do you have sources for your information, or is this from personal experience and calculations?
Sure:
The nutrient breakdown is from RodentPro.
The bit about nutrient function is personal knowledge. (I am an elite amature endurance athlete) knowledge gained from school, decades of working with coaches and lots of friends who race at a higher level than I.
The size chart is from another feed supplier site on the web.
What size to feed: common knowledge. Corroborated by senior member on the board of course. :)
PM me if you want a refferance for something specific. (It took time)
smy_749
05-08-13, 06:40 PM
Nicely done.
rocknhorse76
05-08-13, 10:12 PM
All great info. I do know that every time I increase prey size with my snakes, they hit a rapid growth spurt. My BP was on mice forever and seemed topped out at 36" and around 800-900grams at around 5 years old. When I started feeding him small rats, he grew a lot. He's now 44" and 1400 grams at about 7 years old, and eats medium rats every 3 weeks. So I definitely agree with the post!
KORBIN5895
05-08-13, 10:45 PM
That's too much reading for me.
Nicely written and some valid points too.
All our snakes are under 3 years of age and the oldest are around 1,200 each just from eating rats for the entire time of having them. And when I do up their feeding size they definitely show a big spurt of growth. :) They grow up so fast :')
Lickeypie
05-09-13, 02:22 PM
As for raising mice vs. rats, is there much of a difference? (ex: in smell?)
Thx for posting chris. I would like to see the nutritional values compared when rats outgrow their mice equivalents. For example, what are the nutritional differences between, one medium rat and two large mice or one large rat and two or three xl mice?
shaunyboy
05-09-13, 02:34 PM
heres a nutrition chart that covers most types of prey.....
Rodent Pro's Nutrient Composition (http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp)
cheers shaun
The growth of ball python after four months would still show a huge difference in size. I have fed female balls exclusively mice and they take a LONG time to get to size (years longer than rat-fed females).
Youre saying, you have fed female balls a similar amount of mice (as in same weight of food overall per feeding) and they took longer to grow to adult size than those fed a similar amount of rats? While interesting, even if that were true I suppose that would only matter in the end to a breeder like yourself. For a normal keeper, it shouldnt matter in the least, especially when talking about a male snake. I think there is actually a more common problem of power feeding snakes to get them big as fast as possible, than there is a problem of slow growth, especially when it regards their health.
Sorry Chris, I hope you didnt think I was meaning to start a brawl or anything. That was definitely not my intention. I was merely wanting to show that there is still a lot of information beyond what you are showing here that makes it perfectly reasonable to feed either prey in a very healthy way. My post was an attempt to try to make the choice between mice and rats a more even playing field in light of your rather one sided evidence.
Incidentally, what problem are you referring to where a newbie killed their snake? Was it simply not feeding it enough?
Chris72
05-09-13, 04:11 PM
Thx for posting chris. I would like to see the nutritional values compared when rats outgrow their mice equivalents. For example, what are the nutritional differences between, one medium rat and two large mice or one large rat and two or three xl mice?
Good question. The link Shaun supplied shows the details.
From the perspective of micro nutrients there is more of a balance. From the perspective of macro nutrients there is actually a greater differance.
More specifically a drop in ash and statistically significant increase in fat and protien percentages.
Gram for gram you are going to get even more with an adult rat v a sub adult rat. Where we know that fat and protien has 9cal/g and 4cal/g respectively we are now providing an appreciable increase in calories per gram (adult rat) v the same number of grams in mouse feed.
Protien goes to 61.8% (v mouse @55.8)
Fat go to 32.6%. (v mouse @ 23.6)
Both an increase over the Jeuvenille rat used in the original comparison.
The higher protien will help to further support increased growth, tissue repair and basis physical maintenance. The higher fat content provides a very calorically dense fuel source per gram.
This is likely why we see long established breeders (see:Mykee) pick rats as the snake snack of choice. (Especially with females around breeding time)
Terranaut
05-09-13, 05:17 PM
Rabbits are even better ;)
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j9/terranaut0/20130506_191945_zps07696f2e.jpg
Nice little write up. Cost of prey is a big consideration.
I never feed mice. When the snake gets big it would cost a fortune if they were stuck on mice.
Ooops I just saw this was in the ball python section. Sorry. I guess rabbit is not a likely choice.
Chris72
05-09-13, 06:00 PM
Rabbits are even better ;)
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j9/terranaut0/20130506_191945_zps07696f2e.jpg
Nice little write up. Cost of prey is a big consideration.
I never feed mice. When the snake gets big it would cost a fortune if they were stuck on mice.
Ooops I just saw this was in the ball python section. Sorry. I guess rabbit is not a likely choice.
I noticed rabbit is better choice nutritionally. According to the chart a 1 lb rabbit is = to an XL-Rat. (Big females can get up to 5000g so N.P.) not sure if anyone is doing that. Couldn't hurt I suppose. My lemon blast, Olympia, hits food items like the rat stole her car. (Pissed) when she grows up I'm sure if I let a small rabbit sleep on bedding that smelled like rats... It would be a short story.
No reason to I guess.
KORBIN5895
05-09-13, 08:58 PM
I noticed rabbit is better choice nutritionally. According to the chart a 1 lb rabbit is = to an XL-Rat. (Big females can get up to 5000g so N.P.) not sure if anyone is doing that. Couldn't hurt I suppose. My lemon blast, Olympia, hits food items like the rat stole her car. (Pissed) when she grows up I'm sure if I let a small rabbit sleep on bedding that smelled like rats... It would be a short story.
No reason to I guess.
A female what weighs up to 5,000g?
I noticed rabbit is better choice nutritionally. According to the chart a 1 lb rabbit is = to an XL-Rat. (Big females can get up to 5000g so N.P.) not sure if anyone is doing that. Couldn't hurt I suppose. My lemon blast, Olympia, hits food items like the rat stole her car. (Pissed) when she grows up I'm sure if I let a small rabbit sleep on bedding that smelled like rats... It would be a short story.
No reason to I guess.
Again, what makes you say that?
Terranaut
05-10-13, 03:22 AM
Rabbit has great protien with low fat. If you look it up like I did you realize how much better it is compared to beef,pork,chicken or turkey for humans too. This is why we eat it weekly now. It's an awesome meat period.
Starbuck
05-10-13, 03:42 AM
A female what weighs up to 5,000g?
maybe they meant 500g, which would be just over 1 pound; which ties in a little better to the rabbit/rat comparison? I was puzzled about this too lol :O_o:
Terranaut
05-10-13, 04:08 AM
NV7Ps7wW5vI
Have you seen this? This snake could eat a bunny. Not normal in size but not a typo by Chris.
Chris72
05-10-13, 05:43 AM
Have you seen this? This snake could eat a bunny. Not normal in size but not a typo by Chris.
Yup. It was indeed the Grundy's snake I was thinking of. I think it's roughly 5500 these days. (I wonder if there is a little blood python mixed into that girl to get her over 5kg.
From a food item perspective: they don't eat rabbit in the wild so that's why I said there is no reason. It "feels" like it makes sense for a large, older, snake as the macro nutrient makeup seems to be a better fit for an older animal with (perhaps) a slowing metabolism. Just like with people I suppose.
But if they needed rabbit as established adults they would change their diet to include a large amount if rabbit. Lots of animals modify their diet with age....ball pythons on the wild don't really. They keep eating mostly rats.
That's why I thought there is no reason to feed rabbit to a large female. If they needed what rabbit has to offer they would hunt lots of rabbit.
Concept9
05-10-13, 06:19 AM
AWESOME job man. I always feed my animals rats when possible, I new there was a differance, just never had the math on it. Great post, thanks again. :)
smy_749
05-10-13, 06:48 AM
That is a huge ball. lol
From a food item perspective: they don't eat rabbit in the wild so that's why I said there is no reason. It "feels" like it makes sense for a large, older, snake as the macro nutrient makeup seems to be a better fit for an older animal with (perhaps) a slowing metabolism. Just like with people I suppose.
But if they needed rabbit as established adults they would change their diet to include a large amount if rabbit. Lots of animals modify their diet with age....ball pythons on the wild don't really. They keep eating mostly rats.
That's why I thought there is no reason to feed rabbit to a large female. If they needed what rabbit has to offer they would hunt lots of rabbit.
Can you tell me where you are getting your data on their wild diet? It seems like you've been led to believe ball pythons are some sort of specialized hunter in the wild, when all evidence shows that this is not the case. Their main food source in some parts of their habitat (which is wide and varied) is rat, some other areas it is birds, and in still others it is gerbils, shrews, mice or other rodents. This seems as much based on prey availability as anything else however, given that this is merely the majority of their diet in those various areas and not restrictive to the species. Their wild hunting habits show that they will eat just about any small mammal or bird they can get their mouths around, and that it is both sexual and size based. In the wild, they are a very successful species, able to adapt well to different prey and environments.
Terranaut, dont worry I have looked up the nutritional content of rabbit and the other food sources too. :D (Incidentally, I wonder if you have looked at the nutritional content of whole rabbit as compared to the more common results wherein eviscerated carcasses or just the meat are used. If you are talking about human consumption, that is a perfect comparison to use against chicken or beef. However, within the context of python nutrition, the whole rabbit, with its skin, organs, head etc, is the better comparison when trying to discuss differences with rats and other whole prey items) My questioning of him saying it was a better nutritional food source was meant to look at the line of thinking involved in that assessment however. To say that rat is better than mouse because it has more fat, but then say rabbit is better than rat because it has less fat, and that either is better because it has more protein, shows a limited understanding of nutrition requirements. Your ball python is never lacking for protein with any of these food sources, so the difference between 55% and 60% protein is inconsequential. While higher fat may be a good thing with some snakes (say a cycling female) it may also be something to limit with others (say an older snake, as mentioned). So saying that food item A is better than food item B is a little too simplistic and rigid in my opinion.
Again, my questioning in this thread is not meant to be discouraging, but rather to try to expand the process and understanding of what's being discussed. There is nothing lacking in any of those food sources for a python, be it rabbit, rat or mouse. So discouraging one or saying that new keepers who feed mice are not doing as good a job is propagating a misunderstanding. I have a GTP who I have never been able to get to switch over to rats. I assure you it gets all the nutrients it needs from the mice, though its slightly less convenient for me as a keeper. The same is true for balls. Though it might be a little more of a pain in the butt for the keeper to feed mice, there is absolutely no shortcoming nutritionally to doing so.
Chris72
05-10-13, 11:05 AM
Jarich,
As stated in the Original Post: The intention of this thread was not to have a full on debate on the merits of differing food items. Also in the O.P. is made an effort to recognize and respect those that choice to feed mice.
Additionally: This post will mark the second time I am asking you that we move a full on food choice brawl out to a different thread. Please consider starting a thread called "food fight". :)
Previously stated information on Adult Rats:
As higher in fat and protein being beneficial. Those numbers are what they are and there is no arguing them nor their benefits to an animal like a ball python. (As I have stated above.)
The Rabbit Babble:
I fear that you didn't read everything written. What I said was:
"It "feels" like it makes sense for a large, older, snake as the macro nutrient makeup seems to be a better fit for an older animal with (perhaps) a slowing metabolism. Just like with people I suppose."
However leaner food items are better suited for established adult humans because we tend to go from bed to shower to car to office to car to couch then bed again. (Society in general).
Personally I cannot see the same thing being true for something like a ball python as it still continues to grow for most of its life and it is going to out at night doing its thing. So one would surmise a drop in metabolism is not going to accord. This is anecdotal of course.
More to the point:
If there are areas where ball pythons are eating a diet high in lean food items I please PM me that information. For what I read they stick to, mostly, rats in the wild which have a higher fat content. For the same reason sharks eat whale blubber when they have the chance. Calorically rich. (9cal/g of fat Vs protein and fiber(carb) which is 4cal/g)
The point of the thread is mainly to benefit newbie’s with newly purchased snakes>>as noted above.
Before I said a word I recognized those that prefer mice in an attempt to show respect for that choice. Although I’m simply looking at the numbers. (In god we trust, all others must provide data!!)
I was hoping we could add more useful ideas to benifit newbies and feeding here...so if we cna get back to that it would be great.
The thread was not intended to be an in-depth brawl on rodent choice as I made clear in the O.P. (we can do that elsewhere please)
Terranaut
05-10-13, 11:32 AM
If I may add to this Chris my simple answer has nothing to do with a limited understanding of nutrient content of food and seeing as I don't see many people feeding cows to thier snakes it was quite obvious I was comparing human consumption in that text. I kept it simple seeing as the title states it's for newer handlers. Someone is just looking to argue I think :(
Rabbit has great protien with low fat. If you look it up like I did you realize how much better it is compared to beef,pork,chicken or turkey for humans too. This is why we eat it weekly now. It's an awesome meat period.
This was the reason for my including you in the response man, nothing more. I have no desire to argue about which is better, as I have stated very clearly that I think all these food items are perfectly acceptable.
Chris, so apparently I'm confused. You dont want any disagreement, but you want to say that one is better. You clearly called the thread Rats VS Mice, as in you want to compare them. You clearly said there were two goals in this thread, to compare the merits of rats vs mice, and to show the appropriate sized prey to feed. Then you plainly go on to state that you feel rats are better. Had you simply made the thread about the amount being fed, I wouldn't have probably said anything. Thats not what you did though, you clearly say rats are better and more natural, and neither of those is necessarily the case.
We share a similar desire though, that being that newbies are not confused and get taught something incorrectly, thus affecting the way they care for their snakes. (I suppose the difference between us though is that it seems youre still one of those newbies.) Some people have a hard time getting rats, others have a hard time switching over their snakes to rats. Ive talked with people who have starved their snakes for the sake of forcing it to take rats because they were told that was all they should be feeding. So you see, there is reason to make clear that any of these feeder prey are fine, and useful to show newbies that the choice is one of convenience for the owner and nothing more.
If you would like, we can start a new thread where we discuss the merits of each, but as you chose to take sides in this thread, it only seems logical to have it be here that I discuss why thats not necessarily the case. Again, since you clearly have taken sides, why would you be adverse to defending that position in the same thread? Im not being unreasonable or aggressive that Im aware of, merely questioning your assertions and assumptions. It seems like if your statements cant stand up to reasonable disagreement, then perhaps a little more research was in order first.
Chris72
05-10-13, 03:15 PM
This was the reason for my including you in the response man, nothing more. I have no desire to argue about which is better, as I have stated very clearly that I think all these food items are perfectly acceptable.
Chris, so apparently I'm confused. You dont want any disagreement, but
...............................................
.................................................. .................................................. ...........
perhaps a little more research was in order first.
Not my opinions at all. Simply presenting the data as it stands. Mice are not a bad feed by any stretch of the imagination however, as the data shows, rats are a better nutritional selection.
I had gathered allot of information over a period of time and the O.P. is simply what I found. (Yes it stands up...not hard for data to stand on its own...and I don’t think I offered any speculation.)
To that point I would like to see a newbie (lurker or not) feeding the proper size rat to the Ball...not whatever the kid at Pet Smart said.
Please consider looking for nutritional data on why mice are the superior food choice and open a thread on that subject for all to comment on. I will be happy to take part as long as it doesn’t turn into a fight.
As previously stated, I’m not interested in a brawl. (That 4 times now)
I found your last post insulting. I opened with a little respect to mice feeders, and more than a few times I have specified there is nothing wrong with that. As the data shows, rats are better if both options are available and feasible. That said; To date I have not seen any "reasonable disagreements" with data to back up the thinking.
I have kept various reptiles and breed exotic bird for decades. I am not a "newbie" but thank you for offing that.
Please feed you snakes mice...I am finished with this conversation. (Egarly waiting to read the thread on Mice)
Highest Regards,
C.
Terranaut
05-10-13, 03:32 PM
This was the reason for my including you in the response man, nothing more. I have no desire to argue about which is better, as I have stated very clearly that I think all these food items are perfectly acceptable.
Well I get a little offended when people tell I have a limited understanding about things. As far as which is better...where I live I get more food for my money with rabbits but not all of my snakes eat them (size). The snakes I feed rabbit to are adults and I preffer lean healthy snakes over fat pudding blobs so less fat and thus less total calories is better for them. My others all get rats and I will say rats are superior to mice for one reason....cost. Now if you have a corn or a garter or any small snake that will not need to eat anything larger than an adult mouse then cost would never be an issue. An adult carpet (for example) eating a bunch of mice at a time will cost more than one big rat(at least here it would).
Nutritionaly the differences are very small and I doubt a snakes health or quality of life would suffer from only being fed one or the other.
So I guess the term "better" is true but only relative to the context it is used. So for me cheaper is better. For others leaner is better and for some availability is better.
I still think Chris did a good job with this and will be telling newer keepers to read it.
Chris72
05-10-13, 03:51 PM
Well I get a little offended when people tell I have a limited understanding about things. As far as which is better...where I live I get more food for my money with rabbits but not all of my snakes eat them (size).
..........................
I still think Chris did a good job with this and will be telling newer keepers to read it.
Thanks Dan.
And thanks to those who offered some kudos or constructive input.
(What was that talk of needed another Mod to keep the peace when peace breaks down...?...yeah,
That!...I vote Aaron.)
Terranaut
05-10-13, 04:10 PM
Thanks Dan.
And thanks to those who offered some kudos or constructive input.
(What was that talk of needed another Mod to keep the peace when peace breaks down...?...yeah,
That!...I vote Aaron.)
I don't think this got out of control. If all parties put a little water on the fire will go out. No mod required. There is a fine line between moderator and goderator. You have to allow things to go their course sometimes even if it is not what you want to read. You will know when peace has broken down. It goes south pretty quick. PM's start flying and people get banned. This thread is no where near that. Someone just needs to learn how to talk to people without being rude where no rudeness should be.:no:
Chris72
05-10-13, 04:47 PM
I don't think this got out of control. If all parties put a little water on the fire will go out. No mod required. There is a fine line between moderator and goderator. You have to allow things to go their course sometimes even if it is not what you want to read. You will know when peace has broken down. It goes south pretty quick. PM's start flying and people get banned. This thread is no where near that. Someone just needs to learn how to talk to people without being rude where no rudeness should be.:no:
Agreed. Have seen that happen for no reason on other forums and there is no reason for a fire in the first place. thats why I am making a large effort to not get pulled in. I really didnt want all the negative, empty, garbage to foul the thread.
Additional input that built on the basic info provided, with data for context, where applicable would have just made the thread better. Unfortunately that takes effort and time.
Too bad it’s too easy to heckle blindly from a corner. :unhappy::pissedoff::tired1_2::tired1_2:
Dan, it appears we react the same way. My reaction was to you saying I hadnt looked something up at all, which I suppose was how you similarly reacted when I suggested likewise to you. I will admit I was a little offended at your initial suggestion too. My apologies for making it about that.
Again, where is the brawl though Chris? It is not my intention to 'break the peace' but to try to correct a error. As far as Im concerned, we are simply having a discussion about husbandry practices, which is what these forums are meant for. Im sorry if you feel like Im attacking you personally or being rude, that is not my intention at all. Im a New Yorker, so maybe I get a little abrupt sometimes. If Ive been rude here, I do apologize. You may not understand the irony of saying Aaron should be the one to keep the peace with me, as you are new here, but feel free to ask him about it. Normally Im the one protecting others from him. ;)
But back to the information. You saying that the data speaks for itself shows a lack of the context it would be part of however. For instance, did you notice that an adult mouse has about 4 times as much vitamin A as a rat? Now I could say that this is a vitamin that is key for things like bone growth, immunity function, cell differentiation (very important during growth) and vision. All good things for a growing snake, right? I could use that as an argument that mice are 'better' if I didnt understand the context. However, Im aware that most of that vitamin A is actually just excreted anyway, and that there is more than enough Vitamin A in rats for a snakes nutritional requirements also. Like Ive said many times, I dont think mice are better. I think they are all perfectly acceptable prey items and all fulfill the nutritional requirements for the pythons.
There is a similar lack of context when you try to say rats are better. There is a context that needs to be considered for your data. Lets look at fat for instance, since you used it as a major indicator of how rats are macro nutritionally superior. You say that rats have higher fat content and therefore are better. We arent talking about wild animals who have to be worried about caloric intake however; quite the opposite actually. We are discussing captive reptiles (who in the animal kingdom comparatively have a very low metabolism in general) who sit in a small cage and do very little. They are fed on a regular basis, and when using any of the prey items we have discussed, have access to more than enough fat to meet their nutritional caloric intake. If anything, in this context, it could be stated that more fat content is a detrimental thing, not a beneficial one.
You then went on to state that a sub adult rat has statistically higher Iron (Fe) and Zinc (Zn). Now here your numbers are simply wrong. There is more Iron in mice than rats, and only a slight variation in Zn, depending on the age of comparison. Again though, putting it in context shows that there is no reason to consider these as both meet the nutritional requirements of these animals, and so the slightly higher amount is inconsequential either way.
Then there is the actual data itself. You only stated the source for one of your sets of numbers, that of RodentPro. Now they got their chart from a comparative study done in 2002. If you did look up the study and read it, you will see that RodentPro only shows part of the study, and that there is great variability on some of those things. Even the diet of the various study groups has an effect, though not as much as one might think.
The point is, its not a cut and dry thing and by no means can you say that this is simply where the data stands. RodentPros chart is a good guide to use in a general sense, but hardly the end all and be all of the discussion. Rats, mice, rabbits, gerbils, they all meet and exceed the requirements for these pythons. Its the quantity that needs to be considered, and you seem to have done a good job of speaking about that as regards one of the food items, rats. Just be a little more open to the possibility of getting to the same end in different ways, thats all Im asking.
Agreed. Have seen that happen for no reason on other forums and there is no reason for a fire in the first place. thats why I am making a large effort to not get pulled in. I really didnt want all the negative, empty, garbage to foul the thread.
Additional input that built on the basic info provided, with data for context, where applicable would have just made the thread better. Unfortunately that takes effort and time.
Too bad it’s too easy to heckle blindly from a corner. :unhappy::pissedoff::tired1_2::tired1_2:
Oh and for the sake of the peace, Ill not react to you telling me multiple times in this thread that Im "babbling" or "empty" or "blindly" saying "garbage". You seem like a fairly smart guy, so Im sure you'll soon pick up on the fact that none of those are accurate descriptions applicable to me. Admittedly, I do like a good debate as I think it often spurs more research for both parties, but we can disagree without the need to resort to insult. I always try to make sure its not personal and only about the research. Please try to do the same.
Chris72
05-10-13, 05:20 PM
Perfect. Thank you sir.
Note: The second thing I mentioned before I even started in the Original Post:
" I offer this thread with 100% certainty that there are keepers who have healthy happy Royals with feeding programs that are largely different. This thread is not intended to challenge you. Rather it is intended to benefit the animals housed by those who have takes Pet Smart at face value on proper care. Be nice; we are on the same team people!
"
Before I started I made a clear and premeditated effort to recognize those who choose mice in order to avoid this kind of a break down. I understand your choice and respect that. If you think mice are superior; let’s see that data in a food choice thread.
Highest Regards,
C.
KORBIN5895
05-10-13, 05:33 PM
Thanks Dan.
And thanks to those who offered some kudos or constructive input.
(What was that talk of needed another Mod to keep the peace when peace breaks down...?...yeah,
That!...I vote Aaron.)
You don't want Aaron because he'd boot your whining can so fast. What are you crying for? Just because you are making assertive claims that aren't 100% true?
Doesn't a 40g mouse have more fat than a 40g rat? Don't they also have more calcium?
Perfect. Thank you sir.
Note: The second thing I mentioned before I even started in the Original Post:
" I offer this thread with 100% certainty that there are keepers who have healthy happy Royals with feeding programs that are largely different. This thread is not intended to challenge you. Rather it is intended to benefit the animals housed by those who have takes Pet Smart at face value on proper care. Be nice; we are on the same team people!
"
Before I started I made a clear and premeditated effort to recognize those who choose mice in order to avoid this kind of a break down. I understand your choice and respect that. If you think mice are superior; let’s see that data in a food choice thread.
Highest Regards,
C.
Im not sure what breakdown you are talking about.
Let me be clear again, I do not think mice are superior. I dont choose to feed mice. I actually hate mice, as they are dirty, smelly, and a huge pain to breed. Out of all my snakes, I have only one who is picky and doesnt take rats. Rats are more convenient to feed my larger snakes, and for some people like Dan, they are also cheaper. My only point this whole time was to refute your claim that rats are nutritionally superior to other rodents for feeding pythons. I have done so, with evidence above. If you really need me to, I can give you a list of some articles to read in order to understand this better, but again it will not be to show mice are better. Rather they will show that both are pretty much the same, both more than fulfill the nutritional requirements of these pythons, and there is only keeper preferences to consider.
smy_749
05-10-13, 05:57 PM
Im not sure what breakdown you are talking about.
Let me be clear again, I do not think mice are superior. I dont choose to feed mice. I actually hate mice, as they are dirty, smelly, and a huge pain to breed. Out of all my snakes, I have only one who is picky and doesnt take rats. Rats are more convenient to feed my larger snakes, and for some people like Dan, they are also cheaper. My only point this whole time was to refute your claim that rats are nutritionally superior to other rodents for feeding pythons. I have done so, with evidence above. If you really need me to, I can give you a list of some articles to read in order to understand this better, but again it will not be to show mice are better. Rather they will show that both are pretty much the same, both more than fulfill the nutritional requirements of these pythons, and there is only keeper preferences to consider.
I'm not reading all of the arguing, its too much text for me. I did read this one though, so I thought I'd ask. The boost in growth from feeding rats that people see, is that just due to them tending to feed a larger rat than they would if they were feeding a mouse?
Chris72
05-10-13, 06:09 PM
You don't want Aaron because he'd boot your whining can so fast. What are you crying for? Just because you are making assertive claims that aren't 100% true?
Doesn't a 40g mouse have more fat than a 40g rat? Don't they also have more calcium?
A) I could be wrong...but I think not. Met Aaron..Seems like a sensible guy…not a bully.
B) "Making assertive claims that aren't 100% true?" Where please? Please answer with additional data or information to clarify, but not just flaming for the sake of flaming. :confused:
C) 40g rat v 40g mouse: Nope. Have a quick look at the O.P. Adult mouse to sub adult rat...The sub adult rat has statically insignificantly higher protein but statistically higher fat %. Also a sub adult rat will have a statistically higher level of both Fe (iron) and Zn (zinc) which have a direct correlation to many things including red blood cell count, O2 transfer and respiratory health (Fe), and overall immune system health (Zn).
If that were happening smy, and I'm neither refuting or substantiating that, then I would assume its simply that, yes. So far as I'm aware there has not been any controlled study done on this, which would compensate for the other variables aside from nutritive quality. Would live to see one though.
A) I could be wrong...but I think not. Met Aaron..Seems like a sensible guy…not a bully.
B) "Making assertive claims that aren't 100% true?" Where please? Please answer with additional data or information to clarify, but not just flaming for the sake of flaming. :confused:
C) 40g rat v 40g mouse: Nope. Have a quick look at the O.P. Adult mouse to sub adult rat...The sub adult rat has statically insignificantly higher protein but statistically higher fat %. Also a sub adult rat will have a statistically higher level of both Fe (iron) and Zn (zinc) which have a direct correlation to many things including red blood cell count, O2 transfer and respiratory health (Fe), and overall immune system health (Zn).
You might want to look again. Adult mouse has 137.9 mg of Iron (Fe), while the sub adult rat has 133.2 mg.
KORBIN5895
05-10-13, 06:51 PM
A 40g rat is no where near a sub adult size. Where the heck is this info coming from? A 40g rat would be a weaned rat. You know just off the mothers milk....
Now your average adult mouse is 30ish grams. A 40g mouse is usually considered a an older breeder and they are usually quite fatty and have fully developed bones. A 40g rat is still young and growing fast so I can't see how it would have all that much fat and its bones would still be developing.
Chris72
05-10-13, 07:08 PM
A 40g rat is no where near a sub adult size. Where the heck is this info coming from? A 40g rat would be a weaned rat. You know just off the mothers milk....
Now your average adult mouse is 30ish grams. A 40g mouse is usually considered a an older breeder and they are usually quite fatty and have fully developed bones. A 40g rat is still young and growing fast so I can't see how it would have all that much fat and its bones would still be developing.
The cat's used where based how the rodent pro breakdown available. I belive the cat that matched the adult mouse was the rat category of "Jeuvenille". Those are the numbers used because the wieght ranges did overlap. Just to be sure we are clear and not getting hung on semantics. (SubAdult v Jeuvenille)
Listed on RodentPro is:
Adult Mouse - Adult or > 10g (greater than 10g....so 10 to 40)
Juv. Rat- 10g to 50g
(Seems like a fair match up. No?)
KORBIN5895
05-10-13, 07:10 PM
Also there is no way a 500g rat is the same nutritionally as a 55g rat. It just can't be. So there is a major flaw right there.
smy_749
05-10-13, 07:12 PM
Maybe the issue here is rodentpro's statistics, not so much chris :P
Terranaut
05-10-13, 09:06 PM
Well I would rather buy 1 500g rat than 10 50g mice. The price is 60% less ...well here anyway.
NextMorph
05-11-13, 04:14 PM
Well I would rather buy 1 500g rat than 10 50g mice. The price is 60% less ...well here anyway.
I agree.
Also, perhaps some more resources would be needed to make this a scientific paper :P ... but I think the OP is trying to make a fair statement...
Based off nothing but personal experience and talking with a large number or breeders and keepers, we have found snakes that eat rats to grow significantly faster than those feeding on mice. However.. part of this is certainly that many snakes won't take a large number of prey items... so often times the mouse eater will eat 2 mice then stop... which is not equivalent to a medium rat.
Also... this is really more important from a breeding standpoint where you're growing your animals up with time as a factor. In the wild snakes certainly don't have consistent, scheduled feedings and their prey items vary. Therefore, I would say that feeding your snake mice isn't harming it per se. It just most likely won't grow as quickly... and could get expensive as an adult, depending on the species.
Overall, I liked this post. And.. it generated a conversation about it, which is always good for learning. :)
Reptile_Reptile
05-17-13, 07:03 AM
the last 3 pages of this thread need to be deleted and the poor poster who got ignored in favor of the fight should be answered knowledgeably
KORBIN5895
05-17-13, 07:18 AM
the last 3 pages of this thread need to be deleted and the poor poster who 2 dorle. le t ignored in favor of the fight should be answered knowledgeablyAA
Then answer them and stop whining.
It would have been a discussion but one of them sat in the corner and got all defensive. So you can't really classify it as a fight.
I would like this question answered; is there more fat on a 450g adult rat than a 50g "adult" rat? Is there more fat in three 50g mice or one 150g rat? If so wouldn't that make all of the numbers a bit skewed?
It's nice to come on here and claim to have done all of this research and have all of these facts to back up your assumption but you better make sure you facts are complete.
If you can't see how incomplete the data really is then I am truly sorry to hear that but you have no business taking part in this debate..... or lack thereof.
That's an interesting assessment. This whole thread was a discussion of the topic of the nutritional contents of mice and rats. Why do you feel the OP was ignored?
Guess I missed out on the lurking & started posting lol!! Great to see this! Love the "no brawling, lets just look out for the critters" attitude!! :)
Guess I missed out on the lurking & started posting lol!! Great to see this! Love the "no brawling, lets just look out for the critters" attitude!! :)
Thanks for the feedback Angie. I have to admit I was really surprised that people thought this was some sort of fight or bad thread. We were just discussing an interesting topic that often gets misinterpreted. I really hope Chris didnt stop posting here or continuing to research because of this thread.
Reptile_Reptile
05-17-13, 05:25 PM
AA
Then answer them and stop whining.
It would have been a discussion but one of them sat in the corner and got all defensive. So you can't really classify it as a fight.
I would like this question answered; is there more fat on a 450g adult rat than a 50g "adult" rat? Is there more fat in three 50g mice or one 150g rat? If so wouldn't that make all of the numbers a bit skewed?
It's nice to come on here and claim to have done all of this research and have all of these facts to back up your assumption but you better make sure you facts are complete.
If you can't see how incomplete the data really is then I am truly sorry to hear that but you have no business taking part in this debate..... or lack thereof.
nobody was whining i simply didnt have the knowledge to help them. can you please link me to sites that support your claim of incomplete data? or maybe refer me to a book? how about make a similar post but from your theory's perspective? i would love to read.
nobody was whining i simply didnt have the knowledge to help them. can you please link me to sites that support your claim of incomplete data? or maybe refer me to a book? how about make a similar post but from your theory's perspective? i would love to read.
I would have to question that you actually read through the entire thread then. The OP was not looking for help, there was no question asked; he was instead presenting a hypothesis based on some research that he had done. It was a good starting point, but some of his assessments were flawed because he didnt delve deeper into the topic. I did present evidence and show some of the flaws, but it was largely ignored, which is what you seem to be doing too.
Its a shame, because I think the OP did a good job starting to research the topic. However, it seems like he was unwilling to consider that perhaps he might have been wrong and that a little more research might yield further understanding. Nutrition is a complex topic, and isnt going to be fully understood in a week of cruising websites.
I made a similar mistake when I first started on the forums. I was dead set against feeding mice to savannah monitors ever, and this after only having done some limited research on the topic. Someone called me on it and quite appropriately showed me the limitations of my research. I will admit, it pissed me off at first too, but then led me to research it further so that wouldnt happen again. That guy that handed me my hat is a member here now and I respect his knowledge greatly, though we still disagree from time to time. That argument is probably the only reason Im able to tell you that the initial post here is incorrect though. Kind of cycle of knowledge I suppose. :D
In my opinion, the exchange and discourse of ideas is a great thing, and should not be taken personally when there is disagreement. We can go back and forth here without hating each other at the end or feeling personally slighted. I hope anyway. Experience is a nasty teacher sometimes, and often misunderstood. So the ability to run ideas like this by each other can be so helpful. Learning from others means we dont have to experience everything ourselves, and can save some heartache as a result.
KORBIN5895
05-17-13, 08:42 PM
nobody was whining i simply didnt have the knowledge to help them. can you please link me to sites that support your claim of incomplete data? or maybe refer me to a book? how about make a similar post but from your theory's perspective? i would love to read.
Here is a link to support what I said about incomplete data.
heres a nutrition chart that covers most types of prey.....
Rodent Pro's Nutrient Composition (http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp)
cheers shaun
Would you look at that! It is the same data he used!
Sure:
The nutrient breakdown is from RodentPro.
The bit about nutrient function is personal knowledge. (I am an elite amature endurance athlete) knowledge gained from school, decades of working with coaches and lots of friends who race at a higher level than I.
The size chart is from another feed supplier site on the web.
What size to feed: common knowledge. Corroborated by senior member on the board of course. :)
PM me if you want a refferance for something specific. (It took time)
Now Jr if you take the time to look at the data provided you sill see that they are calling an adult rat 50g plus. How can a 50g rat be the same nutritionally as a 150g rat? Or a 300g rat? Or even a 500g rat? Sorry but it just doesn't work.
Since the data stops at 50g rats there is no way to compare the nutritional value of three 40g mice to a 150g rat as there is no info on a 150g rat. Hence incomplete data.
Terranaut
05-18-13, 07:52 AM
Seeing as that chart goes by % I think that rodentpro is considering the makeup of a 50g rat propotionately the same as a 500g rat. So according to that 10 50gm rats would equal 1 500gm rat. I could be wrong but this is what I got from the chart. I don't agree myself but have no data to back anything up so it's just my opinion. So like a pint of water is the same as a gallon. Just different amounts.
KORBIN5895
05-18-13, 11:12 AM
Seeing as that chart goes by % I think that rodentpro is considering the makeup of a 50g rat propotionately the same as a 500g rat. So according to that 10 50gm rats would equal 1 500gm rat. I could be wrong but this is what I got from the chart. I don't agree myself but have no data to back anything up so it's just my opinion. So like a pint of water is the same as a gallon. Just different amounts.
Actually Dan that assumption is wrong. If you actually look at their product description you will see that their 475g+ rats are retired breeders and are fattier. I will get a link or screen shot later.
Reptile_Reptile
05-18-13, 12:39 PM
I would have to question that you actually read through the entire thread then. The OP was not looking for help, there was no question asked; he was instead presenting a hypothesis based on some research that he had done.
no i was referring to the totally over read post on the top of page 4 quoted below
I'm not reading all of the arguing, its too much text for me. I did read this one though, so I thought I'd ask. The boost in growth from feeding rats that people see, is that just due to them tending to feed a larger rat than they would if they were feeding a mouse?
Reptile_Reptile
05-18-13, 12:42 PM
It was a good starting point, but some of his assessments were flawed because he didnt delve deeper into the topic. I did present evidence and show some of the flaws, but it was largely ignored, which is what you seem to be doing too.
also i ignored nothing i read every post. i would ask you to clarify what i exactly did; i have really not said much on this thread mostly responding and clarifying things that you guys really weren't getting off my original post.
KORBIN5895
05-18-13, 12:57 PM
I'm not reading all of the arguing, its too much text for me. I did read this one though, so I thought I'd ask. The boost in growth from feeding rats that people see, is that just due to them tending to feed a larger rat than they would if they were feeding a mouse?
I have a theory on this. When you feed a larger meal to a snake it causes several organ to enlarge and is considers good for the snake. I think the growth could be directly related to all of those enlarged organs. It is just what I think though.
Reptile_Reptile
05-18-13, 05:58 PM
I have a theory on this. When you feed a larger meal to a snake it causes several organ to enlarge and is considers good for the snake. I think the growth could be directly related to all of those enlarged organs. It is just what I think though.
interesting opinion
Terranaut
05-18-13, 07:37 PM
Actually Dan that assumption is wrong. If you actually look at their product description you will see that their 475g+ rats are retired breeders and are fattier. I will get a link or screen shot later.
Charts like this are averages and not specific. Again I think they consider the make up of most rats to be roughly the same from 50gm and up. It actually says the retired breeders may have a higher fat content. So yeah these charts generalise and are not to be taken as exact figures. I am sure if you grabbed 10 rats all the exact same weight and broke them down they would all be slightly different. So unless they have a few more headings this chary will never be complete. I still think it's great for a quick comparison between rodents but I don't there are any in depth studies that have ended in a rodent bible yet.:)
the last 3 pages of this thread need to be deleted and the poor poster who got ignored in favor of the fight should be answered knowledgeably
This was your original post from the 4th page, wherein you say the last three pages, including the poster you feel was ignored, should be erased. I think you can probably see how your post was both misunderstood, and how it could easily be taken as a slight against all the good information contained in these pages. And if you did read the rest of the thread, then you would have seen that I and others did respond to the poster regarding his question. In other words, you seem to be the one wanting nothing but a fight, since you contributed nothing else to this thread.
Aaron_S
05-19-13, 02:58 PM
has anybody thought that rodentpro DID do the research on rats over 50 grams but since it was the same they decided to call 50grams an adult and end the chart there?
Has anybody asked them?
Im not saying this as a slight to them, but I dont think RodentPro did any independent research. The chart they post is taken directly from an article in 2002. Here is the original:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf
Terranaut
05-19-13, 04:15 PM
has anybody thought that rodentpro DID do the research on rats over 50 grams but since it was the same they decided to call 50grams an adult and end the chart there?
Has anybody asked them?
Good point !!!
KORBIN5895
05-19-13, 04:49 PM
has anybody thought that rodentpro DID do the research on rats over 50 grams but since it was the same they decided to call 50grams an adult and end the chart there?
Has anybody asked them?
Aaron, a 50g rat isn't even an adult as they wouldn't be sexually mature. Their tails aren't even fully grown!
I can't see how a still forming rat could have the same calcium as a full grown rat even by percentages.
Aaron_S
05-19-13, 07:23 PM
Aaron, a 50g rat isn't even an adult as they wouldn't be sexually mature. Their tails aren't even fully grown!
I can't see how a still forming rat could have the same calcium as a full grown rat even by percentages.
So ask the people who did the study posted above. Ask RP if they just stole their data.
Kevin and Josh, both should know to do more research instead of taking a leap of faith based on conjecture. Get to the source. Ask the source.
I used to feed my boa pink rats from day one, on the rats are best train. But switched to mice last season with amazing results, my babies are 10xs healthier, with less problems, better feeding responses. I now feed mice for the first 9-14 months then switched to weaned rats. I like the results I see, never been one for fast growing but my main decision changer was just how easier it is to start them and have thriving babies on mice hoppers instead of rat pinks. They switch over to rats without hesitation. Nutritionally I have no clue the numbers, just basing this off of what I see in my collection of boas
Mice to Rats and yes I occasionally feed my females a nice rabbit..
KORBIN5895
05-19-13, 09:58 PM
So ask the people who did the study posted above. Ask RP if they just stole their data.
Kevin and Josh, both should know to do more research instead of taking a leap of faith based on conjecture. Get to the source. Ask the source.
What are you talking about Aaron? I never took a leap of faith. I have been skeptical. I am also almost positive that a 500g rat is different nutritionally than a 50g rat. Fat stores vitamins and minerals so the higher fat content would change the mineral content.
Reptile_Reptile
05-19-13, 11:37 PM
This was your original post from the 4th page, wherein you say the last three pages, including the poster you feel was ignored, should be erased. I think you can probably see how your post was both misunderstood, and how it could easily be taken as a slight against all the good information contained in these pages. And if you did read the rest of the thread, then you would have seen that I and others did respond to the poster regarding his question. In other words, you seem to be the one wanting nothing but a fight, since you contributed nothing else to this thread.
read all of my posts i have said nothing about fighting or arguing at all really nor have i been doing anything but responding as well as i can to peoples high strung responses. and if i missed it could have just said so without the wall of text
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