Hook training question

[Crashcrashboom]

So, I've been hook training my aberrant cal king and he's doing fine so far. I just have a quick question I haven't been able to find any info online about. I use the hook to take him out of his terrarium every time, but is it alright to also take him out with it when I transfer him from there to the separate container I feed him in?

[MDT]

The point of hook training is to break the feeding response when you "enter his domain"...there is no need to feed in separate container. You may likely be conditioning him to assoc being removed *from* his cage with food. Feed in his enclosure, if you need to interact w him, use the hook to tap/scoot/nudge him so he assoc that with no food.

[slowhite03]

I hook my mbk everytime. At first he hated it but now he knows once he gets hooked it's fine.

[Lankyrob]

The hook should never be used when feeding, it is used to tell the snake that there is no food coming, if you then use it whilst feeding him it confuses the message.

[SSSSnakes]

The point of hook training is to break the feeding response when you "enter his domain"...there is no need to feed in separate container. You may likely be conditioning him to assoc being removed *from* his cage with food. Feed in his enclosure, if you need to interact w him, use the hook to tap/scoot/nudge him so he assoc that with no food.

+1 Agree 100%

[slowhite03]

i disagree 100% with that, i use my hook everytime. when mine gets put in his feeder tank then he knows its feeding time. other times i just hold him and he is perfectly fine.

[MDT]

Can someone explain the benefit of feeding in separate cage? I mean really really give a thoughtful, cogent response. If there is a benefit, I would like to know what that is.

[Aaron_S]

i disagree 100% with that, i use my hook everytime. when mine gets put in his feeder tank then he knows its feeding time. other times i just hold him and he is perfectly fine.

If you use a hook for everything then it's no longer trained for anything. Might as well not use it.

[smy_749]

i disagree 100% with that, i use my hook everytime. when mine gets put in his feeder tank then he knows its feeding time. other times i just hold him and he is perfectly fine.

So why do you use the hook if you can just hold him, and he only has a feeding response in his tub? Whats the point....

[JWFugle]

Can someone explain the benefit of feeding in separate cage? I mean really really give a thoughtful, cogent response. If there is a benefit, I would like to know what that is.

the use of a separate feeding cage is completely up to the owner. most un-informed ppl think it is necessary to prevent the snake from ingesting bedding or w.e is used in your cage. this is false b/c given a proper diet and husbandry the snake will pass the small amounts of dirt in eats. most of these guys feed in the same cage it lives is because it would be a hassle to move the snake to a separate cage to feed it when you have several snakes and/or very large snakes. it may also stress the snake out resulting in the snake regurgitating the meal.

now this is my completely novice experience and opinion but if you can move the snake into a separate cage to feed the then the snake will be "feed cage" trained in the exact same way most people hook train. as in the snake will only think it is getting food when it is put in the Feed Cage. i have done this with my 2 corns for 12 years without any issue and am doing the same with my dwarf retic for the past 6 months. i will add that i have bought some Fillet gloves(slash and stab proof) that i use ONLY to remove the retic from the feed cage after wards to protect myself and somewhat mask my hands heat signature.

now with the whole stressing the snake out by handling it. whats worked for me is to feed them and wait till they start to move around again. either them trying to get out or just moving freely about means they are safe to be moved, always be extra sensitive and make sure to support its fattened body, but other than that i have never had aggression issues.

[MDT]

Again...not trying to be a DB, but......

What is the benefit? You know...like the benefit of thermostats are to have precise control over the temperatures of your animals that will allow for proper homeostasis of the organism. That is a benefit.

Are there any real benefits...or is just "it seems like a good thing because I learned from someone else?"

Flame away....

[smy_749]

Again...not trying to be a DB, but......

What is the benefit? You know...like the benefit of thermostats are to have precise control over the temperatures of your animals that will allow for proper homeostasis of the organism. That is a benefit.

Are there any real benefits...or is just "it seems like a good thing because I learned from someone else?"

Flame away....

If your animal is a messy eater, you won't have to clean the blood and guts from his enclosure as often. You also won't have to constantly readjust your pretty enclosure decorations. Thats the best I could think of...

[Aaron_S]

If your animal is a messy eater, you won't have to clean the blood and guts from his enclosure as often. You also won't have to constantly readjust your pretty enclosure decorations. Thats the best I could think of...

I have yet to see a messy eater snake. Have good prey items, they are never messy. Even if they do get a little messy, I've always found my snakes to eat the guts hanging out if it happens.

[smy_749]

I have yet to see a messy eater snake. Have good prey items, they are never messy. Even if they do get a little messy, I've always found my snakes to eat the guts hanging out if it happens.

I havent seen any either, but I felt the need to type something.

[MDT]

I havent seen any either, but I felt the need to type something.

dude..that was awesome! :)

[Aaron_S]

Go talk in the photo discussion thread. I've derailed it pretty well.


I don't really have cage decorations in the tubs either so that's a non-issue as well.

I have yet to find any real benefit to the idea of a feeding cage. Snakes feel more secure in their home and thus will likely be better eaters overall in their own enclosure.

[JWFugle]

Again...not trying to be a DB, but......

What is the benefit? You know...like the benefit of thermostats are to have precise control over the temperatures of your animals that will allow for proper homeostasis of the organism. That is a benefit.

Are there any real benefits...or is just "it seems like a good thing because I learned from someone else?"

Flame away....

then no there isnt really. biggest benefit is to keep them from going into feed mode every time you enter there cage.

[smy_749]

then no there isnt really. biggest benefit is to keep them from going into feed mode every time you enter there cage.

I don't see how that works. If you are going to put him into a feeding enclosure to feed, then you will have to open his enclosure and take him out. Won't he realize that opening the enclosure and taking him out, leads to the tub, and the tub leads to food, so his feeding response will be triggered when you open it to put him in there anyways?

The hook thing turns it off, because you aren't feeding him anything. The feeding tub does....what?

[MDT]

Go talk in the photo discussion thread. I've derailed it pretty well.


I don't really have cage decorations in the tubs either so that's a non-issue as well.

I have yet to find any real benefit to the idea of a feeding cage. Snakes feel more secure in their home and thus will likely be better eaters overall in their own enclosure.

Yep...I agree Aaron, I don't really get it. Seems like a lot of unnecessary work. But that's just me....

[RandyRhoads]

I have yet to see a messy eater snake. Have good prey items, they are never messy. Even if they do get a little messy, I've always found my snakes to eat the guts hanging out if it happens.
There's always a gallon of blood when I feed my Burm, I have permanent blood stains on its enclosure now. But I do feed fresh killed...

Also, the minute I enter the house with the scent of a rabbit she goes into her feeding response, it seems to have nothing to do with where she is, or if there's a hook. If there's food scent within range, stand clear. Once she's done, she's calm again. Maybe that's just Burms, or maybe that's just mine, but I don't see anything "training" her a reality...

[Crashcrashboom]

The point of hook training is to break the feeding response when you "enter his domain"...there is no need to feed in separate container. You may likely be conditioning him to assoc being removed *from* his cage with food. Feed in his enclosure, if you need to interact w him, use the hook to tap/scoot/nudge him so he assoc that with no food.

That's what I figured! I fed him in his terrarium tonight for the first time. I was just a bit worried feeding him in there because of the substrate. He did manage to get quite a bit of dirt stuck to the mouse and in his mouth while eating this time so I'm hoping it really isn't an issue. I've been using black "ReptiSand" and it looks great, is super easy to clean and helps keep the enclosure from getting too humid- I just don't like that it isn't so easy for him to burrow. I'm thinking of switching to the black aspen and then it shouldn't be as big of an issue with it sticking to the mice anyway. Thanks everyone for the input! :)

[Starbuck]

why are you keeping a kingsnake on sand to begin with?

I would switch to regular aspen sooner rather then later; your king will be able to burrow and will feel more secure, plus aspen is very VERY easy to clean, and very very cheap if you buy from a feed store like TSC or agway.
consider that black or dyed aspen is not controlled by any safety organizations, and they dont tell you where the dyes come from/what theyre made of, and you dont really know that much about them.
my .02

[Terranaut]

Hooks are really not for "hooking"the snake. They are for you touch the snake with so it knows your entry into the viv is not for feeding. So you open the viv and touch the snake with the hook. I use a 18" piece of 1/2"bamboo . So you open the viv. Touch the snake and then reach in with your hand and pick it up or get the water bowl or whatever. When you feed just open the viv and present the prey. Do not touch the snake or bump it with the prey. It should come to you. So then touching after opening the viv = handling and no touch but scent= feeding time. I also believe feeding outside of the enclosure is useless. Not worth the bother. There is no bennefit at all.

[Aaron_S]

There's always a gallon of blood when I feed my Burm, I have permanent blood stains on its enclosure now. But I do feed fresh killed...

Also, the minute I enter the house with the scent of a rabbit she goes into her feeding response, it seems to have nothing to do with where she is, or if there's a hook. If there's food scent within range, stand clear. Once she's done, she's calm again. Maybe that's just Burms, or maybe that's just mine, but I don't see anything "training" her a reality...

Burms have great feeding responses. Your's seems to have a bigger one than most though but meh whatever. Aslong as she eats great.

[JWFugle]

I don't see how that works. If you are going to put him into a feeding enclosure to feed, then you will have to open his enclosure and take him out. Won't he realize that opening the enclosure and taking him out, leads to the tub, and the tub leads to food, so his feeding response will be triggered when you open it to put him in there anyways?

The hook thing turns it off, because you aren't feeding him anything. The feeding tub does....what?

it works b/c ever time you open the cage, the snake Does Not assume its getting feed, it assumes its getting handled and/or some thing else is happening. the point is the snake learns that its fed in side the tub.

instead of constantly having to turn off the feed response, it trains to turn on the feed response.

BTW this is completely my own opinion but i give credit to snakes being more intelligent then some.

[MDT]

JWF...just curious....how many snakes do you have? I have 5 and it takes enough time just to feed in the cage...let alone trying to remove each one to feed else where. If you have a butt load of snakes....why make more work for yourself?

Hey, if it works for you, great. Just don't see how it's worth the trouble.

[smy_749]

it works b/c ever time you open the cage, the snake Does Not assume its getting feed, it assumes its getting handled and/or some thing else is happening. the point is the snake learns that its fed in side the tub.

instead of constantly having to turn off the feed response, it trains to turn on the feed response.

BTW this is completely my own opinion but i give credit to snakes being more intelligent then some.

I find it hard to believe you can train a snake to always have his feeding response off until you "turn it on" for him. I get your point, I just don't think it makes any sense. Just because your snake doesn't strike at everything before being put in the tub, doesn't mean he is trained to have his feeding response "turned on". So if you open his cage, you can take him out without issues or biting or excitement? Then you can hold him just fine. And if you place him into the tub, with no scent of rat, and no signs of food in sight, he will still turn into a vicious eating machine?

[smy_749]

JWF...just curious....how many snakes do you have? I have 5 and it takes enough time just to feed in the cage...let alone trying to remove each one to feed else where. If you have a butt load of snakes....why make more work for yourself?

Hey, if it works for you, great. Just don't see how it's worth the trouble.

I sat here for 5 minutes trying to figure out what JWF stands for. Just wondering f...? Just what f....? Couldn't think of anything then I saw his username and felt like an idiot. lol

[Mark Taylor]

I sat here for 5 minutes trying to figure out what JWF stands for. Just wondering f...? Just what f....? Couldn't think of anything then I saw his username and felt like an idiot. lol


:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[JWFugle]

haha the same could be thought about yours SMY 749. JWF=Josh W. Fugle

anyways...JWF...just curious....how many snakes do you have? I have 5 and it takes enough time just to feed in the cage...let alone trying to remove each one to feed else where. If you have a butt load of snakes....why make more work for yourself?

i think i said this before but i do only have 3 snakes(2 corns, 1 D retic) so yes i can afford the time, and make a point to take time out of my day to feed them. so yea i completely understand where you guys are coming from owning 5+...10+... 20+... snakes.


So if you open his cage, you can take him out without issues or biting or excitement? Then you can hold him just fine. And if you place him into the tub, with no scent of rat, and no signs of food in sight, he will still turn into a vicious eating machine?

and again yes. thats exactly how all 3 of them are. calm and care free when i enter their cage and handle them, move their stuff around w.e. then as soon as i put them in the tub they get the scent and kill strike :robo: whatever comes in next. then after i feed i have gloves that i tap them on the face with to let them know im not food and put them back in their home.

this is deffenatly not possible for everyone. this is just what i do, and thought it was helpful info for the OP. :O_o:

[smy_749]

haha the same could be thought about yours SMY 749. JWF=Josh W. Fugle

anyways...

i think i said this before but i do only have 3 snakes(2 corns, 1 D retic) so yes i can afford the time, and make a point to take time out of my day to feed them. so yea i completely understand where you guys are coming from owning 5+...10+... 20+... snakes.




and again yes. thats exactly how all 3 of them are. calm and care free when i enter their cage and handle them, move their stuff around w.e. then as soon as i put them in the tub they get the scent and kill strike :robo: whatever comes in next. then after i feed i have gloves that i tap them on the face with to let them know im not food and put them back in their home.

this is deffenatly not possible for everyone. this is just what i do, and thought it was helpful info for the OP. :O_o:

I meant, what if they don't get the scent?

[SSSSnakes]

I keep between 100 to 150 snake for my educational shows. I feed all my snakes in their enclosures and they are not aggressive, accept for my ATBs which are normally aggressive any way. My Burms have very good feeding responses when they smell food, but if they do not smell food you can picked them right up.

[smy_749]

:3eyes:I keep between 100 to 150 snake for my educational shows. I feed all my snakes in their enclosures and they are not aggressive, accept for my ATBs which are normally aggressive any way. My Burms have very good feeding responses when they smell food, but if they do not smell food you can picked them right up.

This is what I was trying to get at. You can turn a feeding response off with hook training, given there is no scent or anything, but you can't turn "on" a feeding response by using a tub and the rest of the time have it 'off'. If he smells food, and hes hungry, thats end of story for most snakes.

[MDT]

I keep between 100 to 150 snake for my educational shows. I feed all my snakes in their enclosures and they are not aggressive, accept for my ATBs which are normally aggressive any way. My Burms have very good feeding responses when they smell food, but if they do not smell food you can picked them right up.


Thank you!!! This was the point I was trying to suggest! Separate enclosures for feeding=not necessary.

[Terranaut]

Yeah I have never understood why you would handle a snake right after feeding. I have 10 snakes and can't imagine trying to mess with my adult boas and pythons even an hour after feeding. There is absolutely no reason to feed in a seperate tub ever.

[Crashcrashboom]

Yeahh, definitely not bothering with the separate tub for feeding anymore. I've got him on aspen now too and he's lovinggg it! I was a bit worried after some of the things I've read by people saying the aspen they bought had mites in it, so I just baked it for an hour or so at 300° before i changed his enclosure out. Thanks everyone for the good advice. :)

[Starbuck]

I'm glad he is doing well for you :-)
Aspen that you buy from a good source shouldn't have any mites in it, and any mites you do see are more likely just wood mites or other little detritovores. They wont pose any risk at all to your snake :-):-) best of luck!

[SSSSnakes]

I'm glad he is doing well for you :-)
Aspen that you buy from a good source shouldn't have any mites in it, and any mites you do see are more likely just wood mites or other little detritovores. They wont pose any risk at all to your snake :-):-) best of luck!

Snake mites only come from other snakes, not from any kind of substrate.