So, I was reading a World Atlas book...

[bcr226]

Reading a 1984 edition World Atlas book with my daughter. In the book they have all sorts of "facts" about animals and industry and geology, etc.

I ran across a page that was comparing a spider and a ball python. The book noted the "30 foot (10 meter) royal python kills it's prey by crushing and suffocating it."

This is the kind of stuff we have to deal with my friends. This is why we face ignorant legislation regarding snakes and other animals because of grossly misrepresented information.

I'll take a pic of the page and post it later. UGH

[TheSuppishOne]

Wow. 30 foot. That snake must hit the gym like, 8 hours a day.

[Mark Taylor]

Wow. 30 foot. That snake must hit the gym like, 8 hours a day.

LOL but he didn't do much at the gym apart from stretching :laugh:

[smy_749]

Along the same lines....

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/varanid/99124-deadly-nile-monitor.html

[Hurrok]

Oh wow. False information sure seems to deem over actual facts, all because of fear. :( So sad.

[milk man]

You know 1984 was before Google right? I don't think this mistake was because of fear. The people who wrote this were not herpetologists. We take for granted the endless supply of information we have at our fingertips these days. Think about what you had to do in those days to get information. All you had was books that also might have mistakes.

[Hurrok]

You know 1984 was before Google right? I don't think this mistake was because of fear. The people who wrote this were not herpetologists. We take for granted the endless supply of information we have at our fingertips these days. Think about what you had to do in those days to get information. All you had was books that also might have mistakes.

I wasn't regarding when this was....in general people say things (mostly negative) towards reptiles and give false information. I know a lot of people who are afraid of snakes and anything related so I think my statement is correct.

Those who don't know anything about snakes or reptiles generally give them a bad name either because of 1. Bad experiences, 2. Other people giving false information 3. Fear of snakes.

[Bloedig]

I bet the write of the info looked up Pythons and thought they all where the size of Retics. lol

[Aaron_S]

Reading a 1984 edition World Atlas book with my daughter. In the book they have all sorts of "facts" about animals and industry and geology, etc.

I ran across a page that was comparing a spider and a ball python. The book noted the "30 foot (10 meter) royal python kills it's prey by crushing and suffocating it."

This is the kind of stuff we have to deal with my friends. This is why we face ignorant legislation regarding snakes and other animals because of grossly misrepresented information.

I'll take a pic of the page and post it later. UGH

I understand we still battle misinformation especially since the older generation read these books and passed on the information.

Honestly though, it's a book from 1984. 29 years ago and you didn't think bad information would be there? Better things to get upset about than a 1984 Atlas book. Save your energy for a real legislation battle.

[shaunyboy]

I understand we still battle misinformation especially since the older generation read these books and passed on the information.

Honestly though, it's a book from 1984. 29 years ago and you didn't think bad information would be there? Better things to get upset about than a 1984 Atlas book. Save your energy for a real legislation battle.

a book is only 1 mans opinion was what i was taught growing up,that and no matter what the subject,theres a book on it out there somewhere...

oh i'm feeling old today :D

to be honest i think there are,more cons than pro's,regards the internet,mobile phones and texing being invented,imo the art of face to face conversation is all but dead these days...

that and all that kids seem to do is sit in their bedrooms and never seem to go outdoors much,if at all... !!

cheers shaun:confused::)

[milk man]

I wasn't regarding when this was....in general people say things (mostly negative) towards reptiles and give false information. I know a lot of people who are afraid of snakes and anything related so I think my statement is correct.

Those who don't know anything about snakes or reptiles generally give them a bad name either because of 1. Bad experiences, 2. Other people giving false information 3. Fear of snakes.

A simple search about pythons gives more positive than negative info, I think. The problem comes when people don't feel the need to look any further than what their parents told them. If you don't have a passion for snakes and take the time to educate your children, then the best way to keep them from getting an accidental bite from a venomous snake is to tell them that all snakes are bad. Those children then grow up to be adults who fear snakes and get the government involved. It's not a lack of positive info its the lack of desire to find it.

[bcr226]

I understand we still battle misinformation especially since the older generation read these books and passed on the information.

Honestly though, it's a book from 1984. 29 years ago and you didn't think bad information would be there? Better things to get upset about than a 1984 Atlas book. Save your energy for a real legislation battle.

That book is one example. Yes, it's very important because we're fighting 30+ years of misleading information that the public in general takes as gospel.

You might think it's not important but this is the kind of material those who would ban our ability to keep snakes will point to in reference. Legislators will refer to that book which has an air of authority to it and look at you and say, "This is in a scientific book. Who are you and who are you to challenge it?"

I've been dealing with this scenario in the fight for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms for over 25 years. It doesn't matter if the text is wrong or not, it's a published book and they will use it against you. I can counter the stupidity in the RKBA fight because I have standing and credentials and authority on the subject. I can say, yes, that text is incorrect and here's why and oh by the way, yes, I know what I'm talking about because I'm a licensed manufacturer and gunsmith with decades of experience and certifications. That usually shuts their arguments down pretty fast.

I can't say that on the subject of snakes. Can you? Yes, I have a collection of snakes but it's a hobby for my family, not a career. I'm dealing with one of our state Senators right now on the matter of snakes. He doesn't believe that there is a $15 million+ industry in my state for exotic pets. He wants proof that a ban will have a significant impact on the revenue of the state. He believes all pythons and boas will eat our children and choke us to death in our sleep. He doesn't believe me and won't because frankly, in the herp world, I'm an absolute nobody. He doesn't care if my argument is right or wrong. He has documentation to back his stance. Probably from books that are decades old...

So, yeah, it's important and brushing it off like you have is not the wisest thing in the world if you want to keep being able to collect and own exotic reptiles. We need to know what weapons our enemies will use against us and be able to counter their stances.

[Aaron_S]

That book is one example. Yes, it's very important because we're fighting 30+ years of misleading information that the public in general takes as gospel.

You might think it's not important but this is the kind of material those who would ban our ability to keep snakes will point to in reference. Legislators will refer to that book which has an air of authority to it and look at you and say, "This is in a scientific book. Who are you and who are you to challenge it?"

I've been dealing with this scenario in the fight for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms for over 25 years. It doesn't matter if the text is wrong or not, it's a published book and they will use it against you. I can counter the stupidity in the RKBA fight because I have standing and credentials and authority on the subject. I can say, yes, that text is incorrect and here's why and oh by the way, yes, I know what I'm talking about because I'm a licensed manufacturer and gunsmith with decades of experience and certifications. That usually shuts their arguments down pretty fast.

I can't say that on the subject of snakes. Can you? Yes, I have a collection of snakes but it's a hobby for my family, not a career. I'm dealing with one of our state Senators right now on the matter of snakes. He doesn't believe that there is a $15 million+ industry in my state for exotic pets. He wants proof that a ban will have a significant impact on the revenue of the state. He believes all pythons and boas will eat our children and choke us to death in our sleep. He doesn't believe me and won't because frankly, in the herp world, I'm an absolute nobody. He doesn't care if my argument is right or wrong. He has documentation to back his stance. Probably from books that are decades old...

So, yeah, it's important and brushing it off like you have is not the wisest thing in the world if you want to keep being able to collect and own exotic reptiles. We need to know what weapons our enemies will use against us and be able to counter their stances.

So you're saying if I pull out an old text saying the world is flat and because you aren't an expert in that field, you'd live believing it? Right....That's how it all works.


I brush off silly little things like this because I have yet to see anyone ever use a text like that. Did they bring these books to all those HR meetings? I highly doubt it. Do you know how many more prominent facts can be found that's upto date?

The flaw in your argument is obvious. You're talking about someone using it against YOU in a debate. Not the community on a whole. They'd be laughed at if they did.

Lastly, have fun proving that that money is there. He's right and you're oh so blind. Do you know how much of our hobby is not claimed? He's talking CLAIMED money, the money that they get to use. Not the stuff that's sold at shows or craigslist or even on kingsnake/fauna.

[bcr226]

Obviously you've never testified before a committee on the Federal or state level. Yeah, they bring up all sorts of stuff that has been debunked. If it forwards their agenda, they'll use it. A perfect example is the 43 children die a day from guns in the US. That was debunked back in 1992 but the anti gun side still use it as if it were cast in stone.

You'll get asked questions like this..

So, what background do you have that makes you an expert in this field to say that this accepted text is incorrect?

You say you collect these animals, do you have a degree in husbandry relating to these specific breeds that would show a level of competence that can be taken seriously by this committee?

We understand that you collect these animals but why should we believe what you are saying is accurate? Your collecting these animals could very well overrule the fact that these creatures are dangerous and need to be regulated.

That is the kind of stuff you hear. Ever read the transcripts of the committee hearings on the Lacey Act? You might want to because there were several things that were brought up to get it passed that are absolutely untrue. But they used it.

But of course, I've only got over 20 years of experience dealing with political committees. I'm sure you know better than I on the subject.

[Hurrok]

A simple search about pythons gives more positive than negative info, I think. The problem comes when people don't feel the need to look any further than what their parents told them. If you don't have a passion for snakes and take the time to educate your children, then the best way to keep them from getting an accidental bite from a venomous snake is to tell them that all snakes are bad. Those children then grow up to be adults who fear snakes and get the government involved. It's not a lack of positive info its the lack of desire to find it.

My point was not directed towards information on the internet...

My point was directed towards people and what people will say to others. Pretty much exactly what you have as an example, so we are on the same page, promise! :)

[Aaron_S]

Obviously you've never testified before a committee on the Federal or state level. Yeah, they bring up all sorts of stuff that has been debunked. If it forwards their agenda, they'll use it. A perfect example is the 43 children die a day from guns in the US. That was debunked back in 1992 but the anti gun side still use it as if it were cast in stone.

You'll get asked questions like this..

So, what background do you have that makes you an expert in this field to say that this accepted text is incorrect?

You say you collect these animals, do you have a degree in husbandry relating to these specific breeds that would show a level of competence that can be taken seriously by this committee?

We understand that you collect these animals but why should we believe what you are saying is accurate? Your collecting these animals could very well overrule the fact that these creatures are dangerous and need to be regulated.

That is the kind of stuff you hear. Ever read the transcripts of the committee hearings on the Lacey Act? You might want to because there were several things that were brought up to get it passed that are absolutely untrue. But they used it.

But of course, I've only got over 20 years of experience dealing with political committees. I'm sure you know better than I on the subject.

If you took a moment you would realize I would never have to deal with anything on a State or Federal level. We don't do our exotics on such a broad scale even though I wish we would.

We recently attended a meeting on a municipal level and we got the wheels turning to keep the laws from outright banning exotics. All it took was the right words and background information of our own with facts. Now it will be like the surrounding areas.

So in conclusion,

My limited political experience - 1

Your vast political experience - 0

[Danimal]

Misinformation and untruths are only misleading and untrue if there is failure to prove your point in a way that creates an environment where those things cannot exist. And when it is addressed in this way successfully, every time the questionable information is taken up as a weapon it only succeeds in weakening the foundation of the argument in which it seeks to prop up.

There were a few things that jumped out at me when I read this exchange. Apples and oranges first. Michael it appears that you are attempting to compare 2 situations that are similar but not the same. Your view is too narrow. Aaron was clear that he was not operating at the same level you were talking about. Unless I am reading it wrong, the answer to your question lies in your own post.

I can't say that on the subject of snakes. Can you? Yes, I have a collection of snakes but it's a hobby for my family, not a career. I'm dealing with one of our state Senators right now on the matter of snakes. He doesn't believe that there is a $15 million+ industry in my state for exotic pets. He wants proof that a ban will have a significant impact on the revenue of the state. He believes all pythons and boas will eat our children and choke us to death in our sleep. He doesn't believe me and won't because frankly, in the herp world, I'm an absolute nobody. He doesn't care if my argument is right or wrong. He has documentation to back his stance. Probably from books that are decades old...

20 years of dealing with committees is irrelevant at this point because you have no expert testimony, real or perceived and they quickly disarmed you. You know this, you know how they work. Yet you would walk into this knowing the outcome? Imagine being confronted with this article , that so offends you, in committee as a piece of evidence. Now imagine the impact on their position when you produce an adult snake as your evidence for your position that they don't know what the hell they are talking about.
Now who is disarmed. That didn't take a degree to figure out.
You could also lend your experience to someone who has the credentials that they would be looking for, another weapon taken away.
**I am not trying to pile on you Michael, just offering a different perspective.

Generally speaking in my opinion.
We have to, as a community, come together and present a unified front of information, education and oversight to assuage the fears of the opposition. They are not completely wrong, invasive species, for instance, is a real concern. We have people who would address this by saying, thinking and/or implying that those people are stupid. The chance of that happening are slim to none and it should be a non issue. This kind of infantile rational will undermine our position, it is as ignorant as the other.

There is a lot of ignorance to be addressed and guess what? That's our problem, not theirs. We can say 'they don't get it' and 'they are stupid' but if we allow that ignorance to spread we will have no one to blame but ourselves.

[bcr226]

Misinformation and untruths are only misleading and untrue if there is failure to prove your point in a way that creates an environment where those things cannot exist. And when it is addressed in this way successfully, every time the questionable information is taken up as a weapon it only succeeds in weakening the foundation of the argument in which it seeks to prop up.

There were a few things that jumped out at me when I read this exchange. Apples and oranges first. Michael it appears that you are attempting to compare 2 situations that are similar but not the same. Your view is too narrow. Aaron was clear that he was not operating at the same level you were talking about. Unless I am reading it wrong, the answer to your question lies in your own post.



20 years of dealing with committees is irrelevant at this point because you have no expert testimony, real or perceived and they quickly disarmed you. You know this, you know how they work. Yet you would walk into this knowing the outcome? Imagine being confronted with this article , that so offends you, in committee as a piece of evidence. Now imagine the impact on their position when you produce an adult snake as your evidence for your position that they don't know what the hell they are talking about.
Now who is disarmed. That didn't take a degree to figure out.
You could also lend your experience to someone who has the credentials that they would be looking for, another weapon taken away.
**I am not trying to pile on you Michael, just offering a different perspective.

Generally speaking in my opinion.
We have to, as a community, come together and present a unified front of information, education and oversight to assuage the fears of the opposition. They are not completely wrong, invasive species, for instance, is a real concern. We have people who would address this by saying, thinking and/or implying that those people are stupid. The chance of that happening are slim to none and it should be a non issue. This kind of infantile rational will undermine our position, it is as ignorant as the other.

There is a lot of ignorance to be addressed and guess what? That's our problem, not theirs. We can say 'they don't get it' and 'they are stupid' but if we allow that ignorance to spread we will have no one to blame but ourselves.

Which brings me back to my original point. We need to spread correct knowledge and any references no matter the age that is incorrect needs to be shared and prepared for.

This is one of those references. Yes, it's 30 years old but it's still something we have to be prepared to fight. Dismissing it out of hand is a huge mistake.

[Danimal]

I believe your heart is in the right place and your passion is admirable however the notion that information like that is what puts us at risk is absurd. I wasn't suggesting it be ignored, but I will say that it poses no real threat. We should only hope that is the kind of information that is held up against us, it's so easily to refuted.