Emulating Wild Sav Growth

[nepoez]

Hi All,

I notice that the experts here seem to have gotten down how to make their savs thrive, via deep substrate, right basking temps, humidity, food, etc.

I also often read here that trying to give them what's closest to to their natural habitat is the best. So here's something I've been thinking about.

According to Daniel Bennett's book, most adult savs in the wild are full grown to only 2 feet. Yet we are all trying to grow our savs to 3.5 - 4ft. There are dry seasons where the monitor will be less active, yet we are all trying to never let there be a dry season for our savs. And start cursing anyone who doesn't give the full humidity all year round. Of course most of those people are giving dry seasons all year round so that's the other extreme end, the bad end.

Perhaps we are going to one extreme end here where they get the best and most ideal environment every single day, which is in no way a bad thing, and which is why they grow so much bigger than their average wild relatives. BUT perhaps(now.. no need to chew me to bits here) it would also not be such a bad thing to not feed your savs as much as they need to grow to their fullest size(3.5 - 4ft), or not give them an all year humid season?

I know many will think, well if we can give them the optimal environment all year round, then why not? True, I'm not saying not to. I'm just suggesting.. the idea that maybe it's not necessarily a bad thing to give them the amount of food(IF you know the right amount), and varied seasons(both wet and drier seasons, IF u can find out the right amount) as they would in the wild. And an environment that provides them enough food and moisture and heat so they reach their wild sizes of avg 2ft, is not necessarily a bad environment. As long as we're not talking about all year round dry season and all year round lack of food to cause diseases.

Just I thought.. not sure what you guys think.

P.s. I'm not planning to do this by any chance since I'd rather not have a dry season where my savs will lay there doing nothing. I'm just bringing this up for discussion's sake :) No need bite my head off here(I notice some members here enjoy doing that type of thing)

[infernalis]

I don't know who's "trying" to max out their Savannah Monitors. Mine have slowed down considerably at just about 36 inches.

[smy_749]

This is a very complicated topic, if you want to provide the closest thing to natural environment, you are not providing the fundamental niche, you are providing the realized one. This means including less than optimal conditions at times, predators, sickness, etc. etc. We have to draw the line somewhere at how much of the natural environment we are trying to mimic. Don't forget that nature also tends to have a way of keeping things in balance. If each animal was kept at full capacity, full health (as is desired in captivity/pet keeping), then we would have an overpopulation/exponential growth of different species....Look at what happens when a species is removed from an environment which holds the balance , and placed in a fundamental niche (invasive species such as the cane toad).It wreaks havoc. Summary of my rant, not everything in the wild is ideal for the animal, not everything can be mimicked, nor should everything. Finding the exact place to draw the line between wild and captivity is difficult...too difficult.

[infernalis]

This is a very complicated topic, if you want to provide the closest thing to natural environment, you are not providing the fundamental niche, you are providing the realized one. This means including less than optimal conditions at times, predators, sickness, etc. etc. We have to draw the line somewhere at how much of the natural environment we are trying to mimic. Don't forget that nature also tends to have a way of keeping things in balance. If each animal was kept at full capacity, full health (as is desired in captivity/pet keeping), then we would have an overpopulation/exponential growth of different species....Look at what happens when a species is removed from an environment which holds the balance , and placed in a fundamental niche (invasive species such as the cane toad).It wreaks havoc. Summary of my rant, not everything in the wild is ideal for the animal, not everything can be mimicked, nor should everything. Finding the exact place to draw the line between wild and captivity is difficult...too difficult.


+1 I like this post ^^^^

[smy_749]

+1 I like this post ^^^^

I'm learning, sitting in EEB animal behavior class atm so my mind is at work (not really, I'm not paying much attention as you can tell)

[Mark Taylor]

+1 I like this post ^^^^

Do we have rep yet? I think it would be a good idea.;)

[nepoez]

This is a very complicated topic, if you want to provide the closest thing to natural environment, you are not providing the fundamental niche, you are providing the realized one. This means including less than optimal conditions at times, predators, sickness, etc. etc. We have to draw the line somewhere at how much of the natural environment we are trying to mimic. Don't forget that nature also tends to have a way of keeping things in balance. If each animal was kept at full capacity, full health (as is desired in captivity/pet keeping), then we would have an overpopulation/exponential growth of different species....Look at what happens when a species is removed from an environment which holds the balance , and placed in a fundamental niche (invasive species such as the cane toad).It wreaks havoc. Summary of my rant, not everything in the wild is ideal for the animal, not everything can be mimicked, nor should everything. Finding the exact place to draw the line between wild and captivity is difficult...too difficult.

I agree on that. But my point of discussion is not about emulating it 100%. But rather, is it so bad to emulate part of it, e.g. some drier seasons(if you know how dry and how long), and slight scarcity of food(if you know how much is appropriate). And the natural size of them in the wild. Obviously there's no point in emulating predators and diseases, and other things.

I guess, to word it slightly better .... I think it would be interested to find out the difference in life span of a few well kept sav in optimal environment like Infernalis's, against the average life span of a wild sav that's only 2 feet as adult. Including only natural deaths excluding deaths from predators and viruses or other diseases, etc.

[smy_749]

I agree on that. But my point of discussion is not about emulating it 100%. But rather, is it so bad to emulate part of it, e.g. some drier seasons(if you know how dry and how long), and slight scarcity of food(if you know how much is appropriate). And the natural size of them in the wild. Obviously there's no point in emulating predators and diseases, and other things.

I guess, to word it slightly better .... I think it would be interested to find out the difference in life span of a few well kept sav in optimal environment like Infernalis's, against the average life span of a wild sav that's only 2 feet as adult. Including only natural deaths excluding deaths from predators and viruses or other diseases, etc.

I'm pretty sure it would be shorter. I don't know what defines a natural death though...They have a way of telling age by cutting off a finger digit and doing some tests on the bone, not sure how it works exactly though.

[nepoez]

I'm pretty sure it would be shorter. I don't know what defines a natural death though...They have a way of telling age by cutting off a finger digit and doing some tests on the bone, not sure how it works exactly though.

Natural death as in, did my great grand mother die of cancer, or heart attack, or gout, or high blood pressure? No, she dies of old age, that type of natural death. As best as you can do to keep the body running properly.

I have a feeling the captives will live longer too, sort of like most humans in USA(who take care of their health) live much longer than tribes in Japan or Italy.

[murrindindi]

I agree on that. But my point of discussion is not about emulating it 100%. But rather, is it so bad to emulate part of it, e.g. some drier seasons(if you know how dry and how long), and slight scarcity of food(if you know how much is appropriate). And the natural size of them in the wild. Obviously there's no point in emulating predators and diseases, and other things.

I guess, to word it slightly better .... I think it would be interested to find out the difference in life span of a few well kept sav in optimal environment like Infernalis's, against the average life span of a wild sav that's only 2 feet as adult. Including only natural deaths excluding deaths from predators and viruses or other diseases, etc.


Hi, who told you wild Savannah monitors only reach 2 feet in ToL (over their whole range)?
When you say "if you know how dry and how long, and a slight scarcity of food if you know how much"? Why would you need work that out to any great degree (you can have higher ambient temps and reduce food intake easily at any time). Are you suggesting that keeping them supported 24/7 might be bad for them, if so, in what way?

[murrindindi]

I have a feeling the captives will live longer too, sort of like most humans in USA(who take care of their health) live much longer than tribes in Japan or Italy.
"

"Tribes" in Japan and Italy, which tribes?
I doubt very much the general population in America lives significantly longer than people in Japan or Italy!?

[nepoez]

Hi, who told you wild Savannah monitors only reach 2 feet in ToL (over their whole range)?
When you say "if you know how dry and how long, and a slight scarcity of food if you know how much"? Why would you need work that out to any great degree (you can have higher ambient temps and reduce food intake easily at any time). Are you suggesting that keeping them supported 24/7 might be bad for them, if so, in what way?

- From the book "Truth about savannah monitors". whole length
- I am referring to how long the dry seasons are in say, Ghana, how much food they really get in the wild, etc.
- I am indeed suggesting that keeping them supported 24/7 365d as compared to their less than "ideal" env in the wild is an unknown factor and am curious about anyone's thoughts, or if they have actual comparisons of the 2

[nepoez]

Page 24.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=23206&stc=1&d=1364336910

[nepoez]

"

"Tribes" in Japan and Italy, which tribes?
I doubt very much the general population in America lives significantly longer than people in Japan or Italy!?

I did that on purpose to catch your attention :)

[murrindindi]

I did that on purpose to catch your attention :)


It got my attention..... :D

[varanus_mad]

So are you suggesting we include periods of aestivation in ourhusbandry i.e. Very hot and dry/ little food to emulate what they would go through?

There is little enough info on longevity of savs kept halfway decent to start messing with stuff like that.

Specially considering we know what happens to varanids kept in those conditions

[murrindindi]

- From the book "Truth about savannah monitors". whole length
- I am referring to how long the dry seasons are in say, Ghana, how much food they really get in the wild, etc.
- I am indeed suggesting that keeping them supported 24/7 365d as compared to their less than "ideal" env in the wild is an unknown factor and am curious about anyone's thoughts, or if they have actual comparisons of the 2

The problem is that the overwhelming majority of captive Savannah monitors (or any other species) are NOT kept supported at all, let alone 365 days a year, so it would be extremely difficult to find enough long-lived specimens to make a comparison. Also, where are the detailed studies on longevity of this or other species in the wild?
We need to know why they (V. exanthematicus) greatly reduce activity during the dry season/s, I`m not sure that`s too clear (it seems they don`t brumate)?

[smy_749]

Science is too complicated, with far too many unexplained, undiscovered reasons for why animals do things. Don't over think it and do what works :D

[nepoez]

So are you suggesting we include periods of aestivation in ourhusbandry i.e. Very hot and dry/ little food to emulate what they would go through?

There is little enough info on longevity of savs kept halfway decent to start messing with stuff like that.

Specially considering we know what happens to varanids kept in those conditions

hehe.. I have already stated what I am suggesting in my replies and your response seems to repeat previous posters concern which nullifies my responses.

[nepoez]

Science is too complicated, with far too many unexplained, undiscovered reasons for why animals do things. Don't over think it and do what works :D

Again, this is more for discussion purposes and not a suggestion to change what the current standards are at :)

With the lack of knowledge that we have here it's best to keep them the way we know best(e.g. like Infernalis) But I am just curious about whether a sav kept like that would out live a wild sav(excluding obvious variables such as common premature deaths in the wild such as predators or other ifs and buts, discarding off-topic exceptions)

[nepoez]

The problem is that the overwhelming majority of captive Savannah monitors (or any other species) are NOT kept supported at all, let alone 365 days a year, so it would be extremely difficult to find enough long-lived specimens to make a comparison. Also, where are the detailed studies on longevity of this or other species in the wild?
We need to know why they (V. exanthematicus) greatly reduce activity during the dry season/s, I`m not sure that`s too clear (it seems they don`t brumate)?

Yah exactly! It would be interesting if we have that data on wild sav's average life span(again, we won't ever have it, but IF we did, it would be interesting), and all the other missing variables you speak of(and more) and compare that to the data on today's well kept savs once there has been enough time passed on this generation's well kept savs(so we can compare life span)

[infernalis]

In the wild we have factors such as ticks, Nematodes, eagles, baboons, man, big cats, Massive drought cycles, etc.

Undoubtedly a well kept animal should have 2-5 times (or more) the lifespan of a wild specimen.

The sad part is, a LOT of people cannot grasp the simplest common sense reasoning.

I just got into a debate about air flow and ventilation. I'm a "F-tard" because didn't you know ALL animals require ventilation, or they will suffocate, Oh and ALL animals MUST drink water to survive.

With that sort of rampant refusal to accept reason, there will always be large numbers of Varanids languishing in ignorant hands.

[nepoez]

In the wild we have factors such as ticks, Nematodes, eagles, baboons, man, big cats, Massive drought cycles, etc.

Undoubtedly a well kept animal should have 2-5 times (or more) the lifespan of a wild specimen.

The sad part is, a LOT of people cannot grasp the simplest common sense reasoning.

I just got into a debate about air flow and ventilation. I'm a "F-tard" because didn't you know ALL animals require ventilation, or they will suffocate, Oh and ALL animals MUST drink water to survive.

With that sort of rampant refusal to accept reason, there will always be large numbers of Varanids languishing in ignorant hands.

I'm telling you man, you need to start writing that book! I'll be the first to buy! There's like only 1 book out there on savs!

[infernalis]

I'm telling you man, you need to start writing that book! I'll be the first to buy! There's like only 1 book out there on savs!

I wouldn't want to jump into anything like that "half cocked" I still get proven wrong or corrected from time to time.

[nepoez]

I wouldn't want to jump into anything like that "half cocked" I still get proven wrong or corrected from time to time.

For sure, but after a generation or so would you consider?

[infernalis]

For sure, but after a generation or so would you consider?

Of course, But it would likely be a big regurge of everything on my site and the forums.

[nepoez]

I know there's no way you'd be able to write a book that is 100% "correct". New things will be discovered as time passes, always. But you'd be able to enlighten many keepers out there(the ones that care) with what worked for you with proven results, saving many monitors out there. e.g. Before I read your site with a few pages, I read like 20 other websites about savs... before getting my monitor, and it died on me and I had no clue why! It was only after searching for how my sav died did I find your site that I realized I had been reading the wrong stuff.

The thing is there aren't many books out there on savs and the one I picked is the one I used as a guide and it was all wrong. I think all the pet shops in my city has just 1 sav book, and I searched amazon there's 2 books on savs but I bought the one in the pet shop. Pretty much all the new buyers would be reading that book because like me, they think a book is reliable, if it's in a book it must be true! More so than websites. If you can put your book out there in the shops then maybe about 50% of the savs would live healthily. I know that it's a keeper's responsibility to do researches before buying, but with 90% of the info out there being bad, chances are guys like me will stumble on those first, before finding the info on this forum. But with so little books out there, just 1 extra good book added to the pet shops(yours) would have a really big impact on the death rate. At least in my opinion...

Oh, and just to show what a difference you made with just that 1 website. My last sav he layed around all day, and I seriously though that savs are boring lazy monitors. This time around I know my current temp setup is not perfect yet, but my savs are like hound dogs and I sit there for hours watching them scour my viv! The difference is night and day!

So again, I know I'm a long winded person and probably annoying to most lol. But..You may think your book would be half cocked now, but you could acknowledge that there will always be new discoveries, just like science(one day soy is good, the next day it's bad for you), but the info you present is what has worked for you and many others and the result is the proof(Once you successfully breed them). I mean if you and many others do A,B,C and the result = Healthy Breeding Savs, then the book has achieved its purpose(1 full cycle for savs). You could always point the reader to this forum or your website for more updated info?

[infernalis]

You are not annoying at all. I have seen the same thing, Chomper was like a whole different species compared to Littlefoot and Cera.

[varanus_mad]

hehe.. I have already stated what I am suggesting in my replies and your response seems to repeat previous posters concern which nullifies my responses.

Sorry mate i skim read it the first time round.

In my opinion keeping them like waynes is currently are best option as we go on i.e. more and more people keeping like that we can experiement with including a period of reduced humidity to see how it affects savs behaviours...

I suspect we wont be ale to recreate those conditions succesfully due to the sheer size of an african savannah...

It never truly becomes a desert, deeper undeground there will be humid spots where they can hang out while they wait for the wet season to return,


I suspect the main reason for the size disprepency i.e. wild savs smaller than there captive counterparts is food availability, limited periods of boom and bust i..e high growth during a boom (wet period) then low/slower growth while in a bust season.

Typically a savs rapid growth period occurs in the first 18 months, stick a dry season in the middle of that (low food availability) growth slows down

All theoretical of course but some of my thoughts on wild sav growth vs captive growth.

Fun stuff :D

[nepoez]

Sorry mate i skim read it the first time round.

In my opinion keeping them like waynes is currently are best option as we go on i.e. more and more people keeping like that we can experiement with including a period of reduced humidity to see how it affects savs behaviours...

I suspect we wont be ale to recreate those conditions succesfully due to the sheer size of an african savannah...

It never truly becomes a desert, deeper undeground there will be humid spots where they can hang out while they wait for the wet season to return,


I suspect the main reason for the size disprepency i.e. wild savs smaller than there captive counterparts is food availability, limited periods of boom and bust i..e high growth during a boom (wet period) then low/slower growth while in a bust season.

Typically a savs rapid growth period occurs in the first 18 months, stick a dry season in the middle of that (low food availability) growth slows down

All theoretical of course but some of my thoughts on wild sav growth vs captive growth.

Fun stuff :D

Makes sense!

[Aanayab1]

This may add some insight. If not I still found them to be good reads touching on the subject at hand.

Standard and Maximal Metabolic Rates of Goannas (Squamata: Varanidae)
Graham G. Thompson and Philip C. Withers
Physiological Zoology
Vol. 70, No. 3 (May - Jun., 1997), pp. 307-323
Published by: The University of Chicago Press

Reproductive Biology of the White-Throated Savanna Monitor, Varanus albigularis
John A. Phillips and Robert P. Millar
Journal of Herpetology , Vol. 32, No. 3 (Sep., 1998), pp. 366-377
Published by: Society for the Study of Amphibians and Reptiles