Fr ?

[smy_749]

So I just got into monitors, sold my snakes (I had a son and moved and what not, was easiest to sell them) and took the opportunity to try something new. I was directed to varanus.net from someone on the faunaclassifieds.

Does anyone here have experience dealing with FR on varanus? He seems to know his stuff, but he was being a real A-hole and I'm not one to be proud to admit when I'm wrong or insulted easily. Also when I post a question he writes a whole page, which has nothing to do with the question, and filled with why I'm such an idiot on monitors. I said the word "arboreal" just referring to a taller cage as opposed to a wider cage, and he wrote a long response because I wasn't planning to build a cage around a redwood tree or something. Then someone asked why eggs are sticky and others are not, and I said something about predation, and evolutionary explanation perhaps....and he told me to basically stop talking and learn how to house a monitor properly. ....Sort of shocked at the rudeness and hoping not every 'expert' is the same.

[KORBIN5895]

Lol! That's so funny. He is a tool with some antiquated techniques.

We have several actual biologist, zoologist, scientist and old fashioned hands on experts here. In other words we really have the greatest minds here on ssnakess. Infernalis will be along shortly and he can help you out or tell you who on here you should talk to.

[smy_749]

I'm tempted to post all the stuff he's said to me in the passed week, but its too much work. It includes many many many posts about how stupid I am for saying the word arboreal, apparently its a banned word. It also includes being an idiot for asking about a species to do an ecology project on for my EEB class. Using a temp gun to go outside and this will make what I learn in school useless....O.o ? Example of what I put up with " How hot should my basking spot be? How cold do you let your tank drop to at night? " and the answers are something like

" You sound like a beginer, as such you think all those temps and such are meaningful and if you do that, your animal will be great. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm sorry, thats not how it works. Not with monitors. "

Anyways, the reason for me posting, is I posted here, and on the reptileforum.co.uk and you guys seemed more down to earth. If one thing drives me nuts, its when a person forgets where he started out, --> knowing nothing.

[crocdoc]

Sounds like a typical FR experience. Lol.


Many of us have been there, done that.

If one thing drives me nuts, its when a person forgets where he started out, --> knowing nothing.

It's worse than that - in some instances he forgets where he still is --> knowing nothing. A year and a bit ago he and I had a huge argument about whether or not certain species of Australian monitor nest in termite mounds in the wild. I said they did, he said they didn't. This has implications for how they are kept in captivity if one wants to breed them.

He lives in Arizona. I live in...er... Australia, but he still argued like a fool and his followers sided with him (although they'd never been to Australia).

At one point in the argument, he said that if monitors nested in termite mounds, they'd leave visible scars.

I replied "yes" and then posted a dozen or so photographs similar to this (I have hundreds):
http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/78049686.jpg

For a sensible person, that would have been a hint to cut one's losses and stop arguing for fear of looking like a fool, but no, that didn't happen and he carried on regardless.

That's not the only evidence I have, of course, and I think he'd soil himself if he had any idea of what observations I've made over the years.

http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/147979847.jpg

However, I know when and where information is wasted. Discussing the behaviour of wild monitors on forums at which he and his minion hang out is tantamount to mentioning evolution in a creationist bible class.

He does know his stuff when it comes to captives, but he's not the only one out there that does and with other people you don't have to sift through as large a slag heap to find gold. :)

[smy_749]

I'm not big on people who boast and flaunt achievements, the more you come to know, the more you realize how much you don't know. He told me to go to borneo and measure temps with a gun to figure out temperatures for my rudi... I had to leave, I thought he was going to tell me the only way to keep a rudicollis is to move to Borneo or Malaysia, and build a tree house.

I like to take the middle path, not going to extreme ends. He seems to be on the extreme end (his experience with captive breeding) and lacking on the scientific end. Both of which, in my opinion, seem to fail when solely relied upon.

Anyways, formerly introducing myself----> 23 year old molecular and cell biology 5th year major (I like to take time off :cool: ). I'm from CT, (I think pretty close to infernalis if hes in NY like his profile shows) and it sucks here.
I'm half Egyptian and half Lithuanian or something....Got my first monitor (black roughneck) but have been keeping other herps on and off since I got my first anole at 6 years old. And I still don't know much of anything except basic husbandry and the names of basically everything.

[crocdoc]

Yeah, the anti-science brigade runs large on those forums.

Any hint that you may have been in one of the biological sciences would have set you up as a target.

[KORBIN5895]

You know doc I was think the same thing about fr's knowledge.

[infernalis]

I pretty much gave up posting anything at all on kingsnake, and I refuse to waste time with V.net....

http://www.goannaranch.com/images/1111INWI.gif

[jarich]

Its funny, apparently he is a very nice guy in real life, or so Ive been told by people who have met him. All I know of him is his online presence, which is childish. He does have experience, but the problem is that he gets in the way of that experience. There are many examples like the one Dave gave where he assumes something and then is unwilling to think otherwise, even when presented with proof. As Wayne and Dave said, not worth the hassle. Although its sort of a guilty pleasure to go on kingsnake and taunt him from time to time. He's so easy to wind up. ;)

[poison123]

Idk about his monitors but i do love the techniques he uses for snakes. I've never talked to him though.

[Scale_fever]

I once was a dedicated loyal member there! Now i just browse the forum.I'm done with his rudeness and his minions ganging upon the less educated,or hungry for knowledge. my experience there was to a point of no return.In my case i tried something new & got called pretty much stupid. Here's a link http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/varanid/95592-another-obsession-mine.html Once i put him on the spot his attitude changed,he apolagized but it still didn't fix what was said. So i am done there posting! Here has some ups and downs. But you will have the 100 percent support of our members instead of jumping on you and getting gang banged!

[poison123]

The link didnt work.

[smy_749]

The link didnt work.

It works for me

[infernalis]

I fixed the link.

I remember that thread, I found a post I made and then later deleted griping about FR.

Oddly, I preach the same exact husbandry he does, keep them HOT and they eat anything that moves, or ever once moved.

Yet for whatever reason, Every single word I ever say in his online presence has to get stomped upon, judged or picked apart about "context"

I have read posts of his dating back as far as 10 years, he constantly attacks virtually every thinking mind that is interested in Varanidae.

[V87]

Am I the only one who likes him ?

[monitorlizard]

We have several actual biologist, zoologist, scientist and old fashioned hands on experts here.
May I ask who?

[poison123]

Am I the only one who likes him ?

I don't see anything wrong with him from his threads on snakes. But again I've never talked to him. Still love his info though.

[V87]

I don't see anything wrong with him from his threads on snakes. But again I've never talked to him. Still love his info though.

Tbh I was joking I can't stand the bloke ...

[smy_749]

Again guys, I'm not criticizing his husbandry skills or whatever. I'm just pointing out that the dude is an a-hole. There was a simple discussion a bout eggs that stick and eggs that don't, and someone said the exact same thing I said, but since he was a regular, his post was acknowledged as good insight. But when I said it, before him, I was told to go worry about how to house a monitor.

When people say things like, monitors live in the wild 100 feet above the ground, yet beginners like you think the only important thing is calling a cage arboreal because its taller than it is wide, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm we have a long way to go. Even though its generally understood you simply meant a taller cage, not that your going to put a tree in it. He is the type of guy who can never admit being wrong, and even if I said something correct, he would have to say it was wrong, repeat what I said with different wording, and say his is right. Because a beginner can never figure out anything that only he is supposed to know. Hes arrogant and childish in his posts (hahahahhahaahhaah/LOLLLLLLLL/hmmmmmmmmmmm) are things that 12 year olds on warcraft should be typing in their posts.

[monitorlizard]

I haven't had any bad experiences with him, but then again I still have yet to have a bad experience with anyone on a monitor forum.

Whenever I have asked him questions he has never responded in a way that I interpreted as rude. I look at most criticism constructively and do not get easily offended. If I do get offended though, I don't turn the thread into an argument.

Most of the arguments I have seen on various forums involve some kind of misinterpretation, reading something incorrectly, stubbornness, or someone making a personal attack.

A recent thread on kingsnake turned into an argument after infernalis said,"Have you nothing better to do with your time?"

I do find it sad when I see someone on a, for example, Leopard Gecko forum being told not to go on a Varanid forum because they are going to get "based" or something.

Like infernalis said, most of the people arguing are saying the same thing, almost verbatim sometimes. But someone's feelings or pride get hurt and they let emotions take over and then the topic is no longer about the Varanids...

Also, FR does not use academics for many parts of his monitor husbandry(which he has said).

[murrindindi]

May I ask who?


Hi, how about Dr. David Kirshner (crocdoc), Dr. Daniel Bennett (BodiddleyItis), Prof. Dr. Sam Sweet, the late Dr. Mark Bayless, all have made valuable contributions to the captive care of Varanids for many years on this and many other forums. I`m sure there are other scientists that visited/were members here, too. I have a diploma in zoology, and have done several other animal related courses (not Varanid specific).
Everyone has something to contribute (including the private hobbyist), and (wishful thinking) we might see a day where they LIVE in their thousands rather than DIE, as it is now....
As far as Mr. Frank Retes is concerned, most of us are using many of his methods, and most of the time the advise he offers is great (now and again it`s not so good)... (Shhhh)...
I too was involved in the discussion about whether Lace monitors (V. varius) laid almost exclusively in termite nests in the wild in the more temperate regions, it was tough going, I`m not sure he accepts even now that that`s what they do (but IT IS)!!!

[smy_749]

Perhaps its just me, so I will show you what I mean monitorlizard and you can tell me if you think I'm overreacting, I can be somewhat of a hothead at times. Again, I took his advice, and it was good advice, I'm just referring to his choice of words when giving it.


“I think, your going to have trouble on this forum, at least for a little while.”

“Again, I spend the day(34th year at this spot) and I find reptiles in home shelters. That is the center of their life, their range, their movement, its what they do. Yet ignored. Yet you(many people) dwell on a cage thats taller then wide. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm we have a long way to go. Cheers”

His response about me saying perhaps eggs sticking has to do with predation (nothing to do with the topic at hand) :


“You sir, would be far better off if you learned what a home shelter is to your monitor, then planned a cage to include that for its lifetime.”

“buy a temp gun, you need it for your monitors husbandry, and take it outside and take temps of the world. It will change the way you think. IT will take what you learn in school and make it useless. Please do this.”



What does he think ecologists do? Twiddle their thumbs in the woods and then go home?
When I asked about what temps they are using for hot/cold/basking just as a general idea he suggested I go to varanus rudicollis natural habitat to get the answer…refusing to give me a real answer.


”In order to know that, you must go, find the animal in question, and measure the temps at all times. Thats what I did and do. And it only loosely and very loosely translates to average air temps. “


Just assuming rude things (your a beginner, so I'm going to assume you think in this manner) : “You sound like a beginer, as such you think all those temps and such are meaningful and if you do that, your animal will be great. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm sorry, thats not how it works. Not with monitors.”



When he himself knows that temps are important and they constantly tell people "if something is off, check the temps" or " heat em and feed em" ….nobody would argue that temps aren’t important. And I never said that my animals will be great, but the people on the forum told me to check temps so I did and I'm sure he checks temps when his animals arent doing so hot as well.

[smy_749]

I'm in my last semester of Microbiology, however I just crammed and then forgot most of it at the end of each semester so I although I wish I could help in that department, I dont think I will be of much use :S lol

[crocdoc]

Most of the arguments I have seen on various forums involve some kind of misinterpretation, reading something incorrectly, stubbornness, or someone making a personal attack.
That's because people like myself don't post on his forum and rarely post on the other forum on which he is a regular. You'd have seen an entirely different type of argument, otherwise.

Most of the arguments I've had with him have been about the behaviour of wild monitors, particularly lace monitors, which both of us keep and breed (although I don't think he's breeding them any more, as he's run out of females). He's been to Australia a handful of times on holiday, I live here. Consequently I see more lace monitors in the wild in an average year than he'll see in his lifetime, yet he would argue endlessly with me about what they do or don't do in the wild (and the attacks started with him). Sure, to most of you, arguments about the behaviour of wild monitors is academic, since you're keeping captives and will probably never see one in the wild, however sometimes the behaviour of wild monitors can influence how they are kept in captivity. FR loves to tell people that his trips to Australia were fact-finding trips that changed the way he kept them and also to find out information on breeding them, so he claimed that to him the behaviour of wild monitors was very important in determining his husbandry.

The last big argument we had concerned him ignoring a crucial behaviour of wild lace monitors (nesting in termite mounds), to the point of denying that it's a common occurrence (like one would be able to tell from an armchair in front of a computer in AZ) and consequently being responsible for the death of several (if not all) of his female lace monitors, through poor nesting. His followers, who had never been to Australia, assumed he must be right and tried to join in the argument. It was bizarre.

Our other big point of difference is this:

Also, FR does not use academics for many parts of his monitor husbandry(which he has said).

It is one thing not to use academic literature for husbandry but it's something else again to go on an anti-science, academic-bashing rant at every opportunity.

smy_749, in answer to your question:

What does he think ecologists do? Twiddle their thumbs in the woods and then go home?

Yes, he does think that. He thinks that he sees things no academic does (how he missed the scars in termite mounds while on a lace monitor fact-finding trip to Australia is beyond me). He constantly carries on about field biologists and academics, mainly because he doesn't understand the science.

Don't get me wrong, most academic publications aren't helpful towards captive husbandry. That is not their aim, because people that study wild animals don't publish articles with the intention in mind of improving captive husbandry - they are interested in the behaviour of wild animals.

However, sometimes scientific publications on wild animals can be very helpful to husbandry. Many years ago I tried telling FR about one item in particular that would have saved him (in hindsight, many years later) a lot of grief, but instead we had one of our first big fights. I used the information and have been producing baby monitors ever since.

I've heard many people say that, in person, he's a nice guy. Online, however, his goal above all else seems to be self-aggrandizement rather than the promotion of good monitor husbandry.

[monitorlizard]

That's because people like myself don't post on his forum and rarely post on the other forum on which he is a regular. You'd have seen an entirely different type of argument, otherwise.
I like to look at them as heated debates.


The last big argument we had concerned him ignoring a crucial behaviour of wild lace monitors (nesting in termite mounds), to the point of denying that it's a common occurrence (like one would be able to tell from an armchair in front of a computer in AZ) and consequently being responsible for the death of several (if not all) of his female lace monitors, through poor nesting. His followers, who had never been to Australia, assumed he must be right and tried to join in the argument. It was bizarre.
Could you send me a link to this/these threads.
They sound like good reads!


It is one thing not to use academic literature for husbandry but it's something else again to go on an anti-science, academic-bashing rant at every opportunity.
Could you send me a link to one of these rants as well?

[murrindindi]

I like to look at them as heated debates.


Could you send me a link to this/these threads.
They sound like good reads!


Could you send me a link to one of these rants as well?


Hi, I don`t have links, but these are the details of a couple of discussions both David (crocdoc) and myself were involved in with Frank Retes;

Page 61, on varanus.net; Thread title: Re: Nesting 2 (17th Feb 2012) By Frank Retes.
Page 3 on Kingsnake.com (started feb 10th 2012) by Frank Retes; Thread title: "Whole cage nesting".

You might need an hour or so to get through it all, but there`s some great and not-so-great info being offered, I`ll let you decide which is which!
I actually got an apology of sorts after it had finished, but I`m still not sure Frank`s convinced of what we were trying to get across!? :laugh:

[infernalis]

Could you send me a link to one of these rants as well?


http://www.goannaranch.com/frank/punch.gif

http://www.goannaranch.com/frank/fib1.gif

a couple months later....

http://www.goannaranch.com/frank/died.gif

[murrindindi]

http://www.goannaranch.com/frank/punch.gif

http://www.goannaranch.com/frank/fib1.gif

a couple months later....

http://www.goannaranch.com/frank/died.gif


Hi Wayne, a few months ago Frank stated he didn`t want any links posted of his threads on other websites, and I think we should respect that decision, though obviously anyone can visit those sites and read the threads, or is this not the same thing, being as we were both involved in those discussions? (I
trust your opinion on this). EDIT: I see you`re showing the Kingsnake.com threads, so the above comments don`t apply, and you at least can link to those!

[monitorlizard]

The last one looks like it is from Varanus.net.

[monitorlizard]

Hi, I don`t have links, but these are the details of a couple of discussions both David (crocdoc) and myself were involved in with Frank Retes;

Page 61, on varanus.net; Thread title: Re: Nesting 2 (17th Feb 2012) By Frank Retes.
Page 3 on Kingsnake.com (started feb 10th 2012) by Frank Retes; Thread title: "Whole cage nesting".

You might need an hour or so to get through it all, but there`s some great and not-so-great info being offered, I`ll let you decide which is which!
I actually got an apology of sorts after it had finished, but I`m still not sure Frank`s convinced of what we were trying to get across!? :laugh:
I'm going to wait until tomorrow to read it so I have more time. That's quite a lot of reading to digest...

[infernalis]

He attacked me once for nothing but the thread title!

I posted a video clip on KS, and he went off without even watching the video. So whatever his beef with me was, apparently was the thread title, because that was the only text that accompanied the video, yet he saw fit to attack it.

When I asked if he watched the video, he replied that he didn't have time to watch it.

So why the frak comment on it at all?

Th video clip was 90 seconds long, no time to watch the clip, but plenty of time to invest attacking me for posting it??? ( I know he spent a lot more than 90 seconds arguing with me)

[murrindindi]

I'm going to wait until tomorrow to read it so I have more time. That's quite a lot of reading to digest...

I`m not sure you`ll be able to actually "digest" it all in one single day, and you`ll surely need longer than that to recover from the dizzy spells.... ;)

[murrindindi]

He attacked me once for nothing but the thread title!

I posted a video clip on KS, and he went off without even watching the video. So whatever his beef with me was, apparently was the thread title, because that was the only text that accompanied the video, yet he saw fit to attack it.

When I asked if he watched the video, he replied that he didn't have time to watch it.

So why the frak comment on it at all?

Th video clip was 90 seconds long, no time to watch the clip, but plenty of time to invest attacking me for posting it??? ( I know he spent a lot more than 90 seconds arguing with me)


Wayne, if you insist on posting threads/videos/replies using the correct spelling/grammar the whole darn time, don`t be surprised if "some people" do get angry with yoo.... (yuw?)....


(You`re such a showoff)...

[crocdoc]

I like to look at them as heated debates.
A debate is where both sides present reasonable information and a judge decides on a winner. An argument is when one side just rants, long after being provided with evidence contrary to their position.


Could you send me a link to this/these threads.
Here are some samplings. There are others, but these are probably the main ones (if you want to see the lot, go to that forum and look at that rough time period as there are some shorter threads as well). What I haven't included is links to the discussion going on, on his own forum, relating to this. That's where his minions would explain why he was 'right', even though none of them had ever been to Australia. Call it religious fervour.

more on nest boxes, from below (http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1965756,1965756)
lace monitor nesting, simplified (http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1966665,1966665&show_threads=2)
results for FR, from below (http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1966185,1966185&show_threads=2)

I wish I had time to find it, but somewhere (it may even be in one of those threads) there is an exchange between myself and one of FR's disciples in which he states that the holes in the termite mounds were circumstantial evidence (even though they have claw marks all around them, are the exact size of a female monitor, there are no other local animals that dig into mounds in that manner and I FOLLOWED IT UP WITH PHOTOGRAPHS OF AN ACTUAL FEMALE MONITOR DIGGING INTO THE MOUND). Now THAT is dedication to one's idol.

Could you send me a link to one of these rants as well?
Re: the anti-academic rants. I honestly do not have time to go trawling through his posts to find examples to show you. That would be time consuming and pointless. Here's what I suggest you do: Go to his site and click on his posts until you see a long one with a lot of text, then do a 'Ctrl F' search for the words 'academic', 'scientist' or 'biologist' (and hope he spelled it correctly). It shouldn't take long before you have dozens of examples. If not lately (I haven't read his garbage in a year or so), then search older posts. The anti-academic attitude is rife there, I'm not making this up.

[crocdoc]

a few months ago Frank stated he didn`t want any links posted of his threads on other websites, and I think we should respect that decision

The guy has misquoted me several times in an attempt to make me look like a fool. He's even made up things I've supposedly 'said' to him in conversations (like the one in which he claims I told him there were only ever 8 recorded instances of lace monitors nesting in termite mounds, ever). I'm not sure why we should have to respect his bizarre wishes? If he posts crap on a public forum, it's public.

[smy_749]

If he doesn't want people to see what he's posting, don't post or post on a private forum.

[StudentoReptile]

A debate is where both sides present reasonable information and a judge decides on a winner. An argument is when one side just rants, long after being provided with evidence contrary to their position.


I wish my wife would understand that distinction! :p

I'm not sure why we should have to respect his bizarre wishes? If he posts crap on a public forum, it's public.

If he doesn't want people to see what he's posting, don't post or post on a private forum.

Ditto. If you don't want it repeated or used against you, don't post it on the internet...anywhere...period.

[smy_749]

I wish all the wives of the world would understand that distinction! :p


Ditto. If you don't want it repeated or used against you, don't post it on the internet...anywhere...period.

I fixed it for you

[infernalis]

Hi Wayne, a few months ago Frank stated he didn`t want any links posted of his threads on other websites, and I think we should respect that decision!

No can do.

Once he decides to post something publicly it is public information. He has the mods edit and remove things. I take screen shots before removal.

If he wants ANY respect from me, he can earn it like anyone else.

I don't give respect away for free.

[Barlow]

While I understand peoples grievances with Frank I feel it cannot be overlooked that the fact is he has done great work and educated a lot of people about the captive breeding of monitors. Also the way he looks at animals and teaches people to look at animals in a different way to the norm (ethology) amazes me. He may have a very large ego, and that ego probably got in the way of him being more successful with varius but the people I see clash with him the most seem to be people with similar egos. I see very FR like posts from people who attack him the most on other forums. And some poeple in my opinion go a step lower than he does. If you don't like him you can ignore him. But to create websites trying to discredit him, or to make fun of the fact that he has had long term captive females (varius) die is just plain rotten. FR gives his opinions be they wrong or right. He doesn't make fun of a dead Chomper, in fact I bet that saddens him, not makes him happy that somone failed. And to make fun of his spelling when he has admitted he has dyspraxia (or something similar) is schoolground behaviour. Highlighting someones disability is discrimination and not nice. I do see the bad sides to FR and have personally witnessed some of his "tall claims" myself, but he has taught me a lot and made me use my brain more than any other "expert" out there. Some may see his long posts as cryptic but for me they have helped me to seek out the answers for myself with a little help. I seem to be doing ok for now. Maybe FR and me will have a clash or two in the future, who knows? I still owe the guy a lot.

BTW, my username on there is CJ.

[KORBIN5895]

There is a thread on his forum where someone tells him his heating method for snakes is outdated and unsafe. His method was to use three free and unprotected lights for a snake enclosure. Frankipoo tells the user that he is uncreative, lazy and simple because the user recommended a radiant heat panel. Now that's a class act.

[smy_749]

I'm new here, and was pretty unbiased coming into the forums for knowledge. I was directed to his site, and I don't think anyone here will deny his success, or deny that he does have good info (not saying its all good), I just don't think someone who is an a-hole should be treated in the way that HE thinks he should be treated. If you are an a-hole, expect people to call you an a-hole. And perhaps the reason there is no forum threads dedicated to other varanid keepers, is because of that same fact, they are not jerks. This forum has a much different environment, that welcomes people with inexperience, but doesn't baby them. His site treats everyone as though they should have jumped out of the womb with knowledge of husbandry and a reputation for breeding success. And he shows his fair share of disrespect, most notably (received more than one of these responses in less than a week):

"hahahahahahaahahaha your doing everything wrong, my technique, patented by me, which I created, which is the best technique, is much better than your technique which is basically my technique, but I have to say its different because mine is better hahahahaha hmmmmmmmmmm."

Not saying its correct, but he yelled at me for my Rubbermaid enclosure because it doesn't give them any view points to see surroundings *(which I agree is not adequate or decent and thats why I rehomed my roughneck today to someone with a ready enclosure) , yet he posts pictures of his backyard, and his enclosures are circular bins with pool-liner tops which also have no view points to the outside world? He ALWAYS assumes your doing it wrong, and works from there, even if I copy pasted his exact husbandry technique, he would probably say its wrong, and repeat it in different wording. And the people I have dealt with on this forum (murrundidi or whatever, crocdoc, and infernalis) have not had the same "ego" as him by any means, again, coming from an unbiased view of someone new to all of this. And most importantly, nobody makes 0 mistakes, so when someone doesn't admit to making mistakes, I am automatically going to assume he is delusional.

[Donnie]

He sounds like a lovely chap :hmm: (this was the closest smiley I could find for sarcasm :))

[Lankyrob]

Do we really need three pages of bashing a guy that isnt even here to respond?

[smy_749]

Send him a link then?

[Lankyrob]

Send him a link then?

Or go bad mouth him in the forums he IS on so he has the chance to respond to the accusations.

I have no idea who the guy is, never dealt with him online or offline but it seems pretty childish to talk sbout him like this "behind his back"

[smy_749]

Or go bad mouth him in the forums he IS on so he has the chance to respond to the accusations.

I have no idea who the guy is, never dealt with him online or offline but it seems pretty childish to talk sbout him like this "behind his back"

Its not difficult for him to come to other forums . And I'm sure people have told him. The problem is if you post something on other forums about him, you will be ganged up on, and he will have it deleted...Don't say you don't know who he is, and then talk about whats childish please.

[Lankyrob]

Its not difficult for him to come to other forums . And I'm sure people have told him. The problem is if you post something on other forums about him, you will be ganged up on, and he will have it deleted...Don't say you don't know who he is, and then talk about whats childish please.

I dont know who he is except he has something to do with monitors. I would say exactly the same thing about any thread that is set up purely to badmouth someone with no chance to defend themselves

[Pirarucu]

Rob, FR knows full well that he is badmouthed on other forums. The only reason he isn't badmouthed on his own is that he kicks anyone who doesn't worship him. Try going to an Australian Varanid forum to see what they have to say about him... LOL.
If we were launching unfounded accusations at him then I would agree with you, but none of what has been said is without basis.

[crocdoc]

If you don't like him you can ignore him.

If you don't like others talking about FR, you can ignore them.

This was going to be a much longer post and I was going to explain to you why I think it's important to point out what a fraud he is when he goes on his anti-science rants and claims to know what monitors do in the wild more than the biologists that study them, but you'll never understand that. You live in the UK, have never seen a monitor in the wild (and probably never will), so you're his target audience.

As for making fun of his female varius dying, I've never done that. It saddened me, as it was completely preventable. They weren't long term captives, either. His first female was, as he got it from someone else, but she died after producing two young. The others all died at very young ages (unless he's lying about number of clutches and number of babies, for you can easily do the maths yourself). They're a very long lived species.

This isn't the first time you've had a whinge about people talking about your hero, CJ. We know you're a fanboy, is there any other point you were trying to make?

[crocdoc]

Or go bad mouth him in the forums he IS on so he has the chance to respond to the accusations.

I have no idea who the guy is, never dealt with him online or offline but it seems pretty childish to talk sbout him like this "behind his back"

I don't say anything here that I haven't said to him on other forums. He moderates his own forum, so those posts would never see the light of day if I was ever stupid enough to post there (but the bashings he gives others remain) and he's good friends with the owners of KS, so the moderation on there is, to say the least, a little bit lob-sided. There was a very long thread, started by him (as a bash against Daniel Bennett), titled 'where have all the Daniels gone'. The moderators cherry-picked through the responses and removed all that painted FR in a negative light, as there were a lot of those. People are fed up with his behaviour. Many people saw those posts disappear, so don't take my word for it. What's left of that thread is still on KS, from early 2012, but it's been 'cleaned up'.

[crocdoc]

Out of curiosity, when FR posts crap about other people on his forum (even people that aren't members of his forum) do you stand up for them, too? Do you criticise FR for posting crap about them? Do you tell him that if he doesn't like them, he should just ignore them? Do you tell FR about the good things they do?

If not, why not?

Do you not see this as being a bit hypocritical on your part?

Thanks.

[Lankyrob]

I only use this forum and one other small corn snake forum, so i never see "him" bash other people. If i was on those forums yes i would call him or anyone else out on it if he posted about people that werent able to rrespond.

DOnt get me wrong, i have no issue with confrontation, debate etc but i do have an issue when someone is being "bashed" without having that rit to rreply. Its looks like a group of kids in the corner of a playground laughing and joking about someone who isnt in their clique.

[murrindindi]

I only use this forum and one other small corn snake forum, so i never see "him" bash other people. If i was on those forums yes i would call him or anyone else out on it if he posted about people that werent able to rrespond.

DOnt get me wrong, i have no issue with confrontation, debate etc but i do have an issue when someone is being "bashed" without having that rit to rreply. Its looks like a group of kids in the corner of a playground laughing and joking about someone who isnt in their clique.


Hi, I gave some details on a few threads earlier, why not go and read them then you`ll have an idea why some people get quite angry at times.

Here again: varanus.net, page 61: RE: Nesting 2 (Frank Retes). 17th feb. 2012.
I was involved in the thread, it`s the same topic that David (crocdoc) was also involved in on Kingsnake.com, see below.

Kingsnake.com, page 3: Nest boxes vs whole cage nesting (Frank Retes). 10th feb 2012.

Somewhere around that time there was another thread, I think it might have been started by Dr. Daniel Bennett (maybe not?), anyway, Daniel simply asked Frank Retes to stop misquoting him and that he should apologise, Frank`s response was "I`d like to punch you in the face". When a number of us objected, a "friend" of Frank`s ("lizardheadmike") described us as a bunch of bullies for "ganging up" on him (Frank)!?
Obviously in their books it`s perfectly acceptable to threaten people with physical violence if they ask for an apology for being deliberately misquoted time and again... I hope that wasn`t the thread they deleted that David mentions?

[_Varanidae_]

Obviously in their books...

They have books? Now that's akerdemick...

[Lankyrob]

I dont care what he says, what pisses me off is slagging people off behind their back. I am not going to join other forums just to read a couple of threads

[Barlow]

If you don't like others talking about FR, you can ignore them.

This was going to be a much longer post and I was going to explain to you why I think it's important to point out what a fraud he is when he goes on his anti-science rants and claims to know what monitors do in the wild more than the biologists that study them, but you'll never understand that. You live in the UK, have never seen a monitor in the wild (and probably never will), so you're his target audience.

As for making fun of his female varius dying, I've never done that. It saddened me, as it was completely preventable. They weren't long term captives, either. His first female was, as he got it from someone else, but she died after producing two young. The others all died at very young ages (unless he's lying about number of clutches and number of babies, for you can easily do the maths yourself). They're a very long lived species.

This isn't the first time you've had a whinge about people talking about your hero, CJ. We know you're a fanboy, is there any other point you were trying to make?
Hi David. Firstly I have seen monitors in the wild. I have spent 2 months travelling asia and got to observe salvators in the wild. I took a particular interest as I had previously kept salvators (around 18 years ago). Also half my family live in australia and I currently have a trip planned for next year although it is yet to be confirmed. No prizes for guessing what I will be doing while over there.

You seem to have taken my post as if it was directed solely at you. It wasn't. I was making reference to Waynes goannaranch.net website that he quickly took down once it was publicised on varanus.net. If I remember correctly it showed a picture of a dried corpse of a monitor with a caption of "heres what happened to all the arizona lace females hahahahahahahah". Something along those lines. Very childish and hypocritical coming from someone who killed a monitor from poor husbandry.

In the past, yes I have had a whinge. That was around 2 years ago and I have learnt a lot since then. Some of it through the emails you sent me, some through word of mouth and some from the links you posted on this very thread. I didn't enter this thread to stand FR's corner for him. I started by saying how I can understand peoples grievances with him. I have merely highlighted his good points to counter everybody else who are highlighting his bad points. I'm not sure why you feel the need to call me a fanboy, or say that FR is my hero. I'm not a child. I don't have posters on my bedroom wall. I admire FR for the way he has taught me to think about husbandry of all reptiles in captivity. To not follow a method but to think for ones self and to listen to the animals (I know you hate that phrase). To think outside of the box. At the end of the day, most successful keepers advocate the same techniques as FR.

I honestly do see his BS sometimes and how his ego effects his posts. An example of this is when a few months ago I reported that a couple of a group of ackies that I had been raising from the egg looked to be female and gravid at 5 months old. FR replied it was entirely possible and that his record was a female laying at 6 months old and 12" total length. 3 weeks later I reported that I had had 2 females lay ay around 6 months old and 12" total length. FR congratulated me and said I was doing great, but that his record was having a female lay at 5 months old at 11" total length.

I made a mistake a couple of years ago David, of mentioning you in a post where, admittedy I was peeved at people jumping on FR's back. I have apologised to you twice for this and explained that I had had a couple of beers and I deeply regretted it afterwards. I hope you accepted my apology. Since then I have learnt a lot more and I just enjoy FR for his good points and ignore the rest. I understand more now why people are so on his back, but like I said, I can't just say nothing when people take the piss out of disabilities and dead monitors.
Out of curiosity, when FR posts crap about other people on his forum (even people that aren't members of his forum) do you stand up for them, too? Do you criticise FR for posting crap about them? Do you tell him that if he doesn't like them, he should just ignore them? Do you tell FR about the good things they do?

If not, why not?

Do you not see this as being a bit hypocritical on your part?

Thanks.
Since I have been a member on varanus.net I have not witnessed him personally attack another well respected member of any forum. If FR was to make fun of someones disability or make fun of their dead monitors then hell yes I would say something. It was those 2 points that made me first comment on this thread. I am not a member of KS and have not visited the site before you posted those links.

I have a massive amount of respest for you David as a hobbyist and I enjoy how open you are about your success and techniques with your pair of varius aswell as your photography and field reports. Long may that continue and I hope there is no bad blood between us due to our differing opinions of FR.

[lady_bug87]

I dont care what he says, what pisses me off is slagging people off behind their back. I am not going to join other forums just to read a couple of threads

Good thing no one asked you...

[smy_749]

I dont care what he says, what pisses me off is slagging people off behind their back. I am not going to join other forums just to read a couple of threads

How quickly the tides may turn when someone starts talking about lankyrob behind his back...I would be curious to see what you have to say about that man, or would you wait till hes around as well? Not that it justifies me talking about him, but I certainly cannot blame crocdoc for his dislike of FR (if you read the thread murr posted here which is on page 61 FR's forum, you can get a taste for what he thinks of crocdoc and probably science/facts in general, He also mentions some mistakes of his other competitors 'pro-exotics and rare earth, saying that they keep animals in crap conditions, so they make up for it with a good nest box, and that's why the only reason monitors use them)

I personally would agree with you, if the man being talked about was a man of respect, who doesn't backbite or mock, and treated his peers as equals. However when you think every one is a monkey and nobody gets it right until you've done it, its a different case. I have a buddy of mine, who hates reptiles mind you, doesn't care for forums, and when FR started responding the way he did, I showed him just to make sure I wasn't overreacting/making something out of nothing. He just said "yea, that dudes an *******" and laughed.....doesn't get much more unbiased than that.

That being said, I don't think people here would discredit the benefit he brings, or not practice something proven to be beneficial in husbandry, only because he uses it or w.e (basking racks). Honestly, his attitude greatly affects his respect, and the manner in which he is brought up in conversation...things would be much different had he been a polite human being.

My point in that rant: karma is a B / taste of your own medicine / he deserves it.

[murrindindi]

They have books? Now that's akerdemick...


No, not real books (I think they may be forbidden), I was just using that word instead of "in their opinion".... (My aploogies for misleading you)... ;)

[murrindindi]

Since I have been a member on varanus.net I have not witnessed him personally attack another well respected member of any forum.


Hi, perhaps you should search through threads around a year or so ago to see how Frank R. told Justin Burokas (krusty) he knew nothing about monitors because he`d never seen them in the wild, and the information he (krusty) was getting from his contacts in Australia was probably not reliable (though Justin had stated they were very reliable sources), this went on for a couple of days, quite purposefully disrespecting/discrediting him publically.
I only "met" Frank Retes a year or so ago on KS, he invited me to join v. net after we`d had a discussion about offering captive Varanids UVB. I`ve found that if I happen to have a different opinion on something I`m undoubtably wrong, and it seems to be mainly because I cannot compete with his breeding successes (so how could I possibly know something that he doesn`t).
The most recent example was the one about Varanids being able to digest (metabolise) fur, etc, I stated they cannot, he, krusty and YOU suggested they can, providing the temps were high enough for digestion (NONSENSE), and as far as I`m aware, no animal can metabolise fur, it passes through undigested as roughage, yet how many members on that website wil take my word for it?
The same with Lace monitors being obligate termite nesters in much of their range, he disagrees, so it cannot be true?
I made a silly, sarcastic remark to Wayne about him posting threads with the correct spelling and grammar, I regret that and would never discriminate against anyone for any reason.

[Lankyrob]

Good thing no one asked you...

You're right, noone asked me but i like this forum and dont want it to turn into the type of place where its just slagging people off, when i have an opinion about something i will state it, kinda how a forum works, no?

And as for people talking about me behind my back, i dont care - if their lives are so empty that they have to fill it by talking about me then at least i am providing them with something to do

[crocdoc]

Barlow/CJ, thanks for the explanation. No bad blood. I apologise for calling you a fanboy - it was simply because it was the second time you'd jumped in to defend FR on another forum.

I'm glad you got some first hand experience at the slippery behaviour of facts in his hands (for eg, the size and age at which his ackies first bred). I have heard some shockers over the years.

For what it's worth, I have never criticised his contribution to monitor captive husbandry. Almost all of our arguments, from day one, have pertained to the behaviour of wild monitors and to his public stance against field biologists. The only argument he and I have had about captives has had to do with nesting for certain species of monitor, but again that is based on different opinions about the behaviour of those monitors in the wild.

Lankyrob, my third post in that series (the one you responded to) wasn't aimed at you, but as I have said before, I have no qualms speaking behind the man's back as I know he does the same to me, on forums on which I can't post. He can come here to post if he wishes and he'll be well aware of these comments, too. Also, as I've said, I haven't hesitated to say the same things to his face, anyway, but those things get quickly deleted on the two forums of which he is a member.

[infernalis]

Out of curiosity, when FR posts crap about other people on his forum (even people that aren't members of his forum) do you stand up for them, too? Do you criticise FR for posting crap about them? Do you tell him that if he doesn't like them, he should just ignore them? Do you tell FR about the good things they do?

If not, why not?

Do you not see this as being a bit hypocritical on your part?

Thanks.

That's an issue with me too. I tried to participate on his forum, it can't be done, his hardship with me runs so deep that he has to crap all over any thread regardless of topic.

There is a whole thread running on Varanus.net calling me every name in the book. He has told me to go to hell several times, told me to shut up, post elswhere, you name it..

So if it's good for a goose, it's good for a gander.

[infernalis]

. But to create websites trying to discredit him,.

Discredit???

FACTS. :D

When he stops discrediting me, when he stops discrediting SCIENCE, I will stop displaying FACTS.

Fair enough?

[smy_749]

Lankyrob, I do agree with what your saying. I just feel that from the short time I was on his forums, the amount of people who said the same thing I'm saying (not only here, there is threads on other forums as well), I feel he deserves an exception to the rule.

Also I don't agree with people posting "who cares what you think on a forum" this is a place to post what you think. Saying who cares what you think is basically what causes people to dislike FR as well.

[murrindindi]

Discredit???

FACTS. :D

When he stops discrediting me, when he stops discrediting SCIENCE, I will stop displaying FACTS.

Fair enough?

There`s no "like" buton, so I`ll just say I like that, Wayne.... ;)

[Vital Exotics]

I have been a daily reader and or "lurker" on KS, V.net, V.nl, RepticZone, and others for about as long as they have been around, I have watched FR's attitude and such over the years, as well as all of the conflicts and disagreements with others. I lost my login on V.net for a while, but still read it daily, then when I started posting again a while back, he "hammered" me pretty hard and criticized every post for quite a while, but now he seems to have settled down with me. I stood up to him pretty hard at times and that seems to have helped but who knows. I have learned tons of info from almost everyone online over the years, him included, weather it was good or bad, you can learn something from it. I have heard the same about him being nice in person and I bet he is for the most part, I just wish he would not be the way he is online, as I hear weekly from customers and or other keepers about how he discourages them from our hobby or sucks to "fun" and enjoyment out of it. What happens to the people who get frustrated by reading or dealing with him on V.net (which is where many new keepers seem to read and some post) and they dont find anywhere else for good info? I know for a fact that it slows down progress for "proper" captive keeping of varanids and also discourages many good keepers from sharing valuable info to others, especially on his forum. It sure would be nice to just focus on the monitors that we all enjoy and leave the egos and confrontational personalities at the door....

[smy_749]

I have been a daily reader and or "lurker" on KS, V.net, V.nl, RepticZone, and others for about as long as they have been around, I have watched FR's attitude and such over the years, as well as all of the conflicts and disagreements with others. I lost my login on V.net for a while, but still read it daily, then when I started posting again a while back, he "hammered" me pretty hard and criticized every post for quite a while, but now he seems to have settled down with me. I stood up to him pretty hard at times and that seems to have helped but who knows. I have learned tons of info from almost everyone online over the years, him included, weather it was good or bad, you can learn something from it. I have heard the same about him being nice in person and I bet he is for the most part, I just wish he would not be the way he is online, as I hear weekly from customers and or other keepers about how he discourages them from our hobby or sucks to "fun" and enjoyment out of it. What happens to the people who get frustrated by reading or dealing with him on V.net (which is where many new keepers seem to read and some post) and they dont find anywhere else for good info? I know for a fact that it slows down progress for "proper" captive keeping of varanids and also discourages many good keepers from sharing valuable info to others, especially on his forum. It sure would be nice to just focus on the monitors that we all enjoy and leave the egos and confrontational personalities at the door....


nicely said. Does he work with water monitors as well? If he does I'm assuming thats what you got hammered over.

[infernalis]

nicely said. Does he work with water monitors as well? If he does I'm assuming thats what you got hammered over.

He hammers people over species he does not nor never has kept.

[monitorlizard]

nicely said. Does he work with water monitors as well? If he does I'm assuming thats what you got hammered over.
He has kept water monitors before. While I don't know all of the species off the top of my head. I do know he has worked with V. cumingi.

[Pirarucu]

I have been a daily reader and or "lurker" on KS, V.net, V.nl, RepticZone, and others for about as long as they have been around, I have watched FR's attitude and such over the years, as well as all of the conflicts and disagreements with others. I lost my login on V.net for a while, but still read it daily, then when I started posting again a while back, he "hammered" me pretty hard and criticized every post for quite a while, but now he seems to have settled down with me. I stood up to him pretty hard at times and that seems to have helped but who knows. I have learned tons of info from almost everyone online over the years, him included, weather it was good or bad, you can learn something from it. I have heard the same about him being nice in person and I bet he is for the most part, I just wish he would not be the way he is online, as I hear weekly from customers and or other keepers about how he discourages them from our hobby or sucks to "fun" and enjoyment out of it. What happens to the people who get frustrated by reading or dealing with him on V.net (which is where many new keepers seem to read and some post) and they dont find anywhere else for good info? I know for a fact that it slows down progress for "proper" captive keeping of varanids and also discourages many good keepers from sharing valuable info to others, especially on his forum. It sure would be nice to just focus on the monitors that we all enjoy and leave the egos and confrontational personalities at the door....Well said.