2 of 3 Corn Snakes died, please help.... :-(

[samcooper]

Hi,

My brother had 3 corn snakes. 2 of which died today. One was 8 years old and one was 8months old. The other corn snake remaining is 8months too, Purchased at the same time as the other from babies. He has had corn snakes for a long time and has the set up just right for them. The 2 younger corn snakes shared the same Viv, whereas the 8yr old one was alone. They hadnt eaten for about 2-3weeks and would not take food. No sign of illness with the snakes accept the one alive is tensing up and opening mouth wide. This sounds like a respiratory problem but how can all 3 snakes get this and become critically ill together, especially as the 8yr old snake died as well. Temperature is good on both vivs. The two snakes that died were not curled up, almost as if they were moving for something and just died whilst out straight. It sounds like suffocation or something from a possinle respiratory problem, but can anyone shed any light to the cause of this please? especially as all 3 at the same time. The last remaining snake is very very ill and unsure if he will survive the night. Somebody please help
Much appreaciated xx

[poison123]

What are your temps?

[Donnie]

Can you detail the setups and the temps they were all kept at to help people try to get to the bottom of it?

[ilovemypets1988]

If he has any gas appliances, I'd suggest doing a carbon monoxide test and a gas leak test asap

[Chu'Wuti]

Hey, Sam,

This could be a snake disease that passed from one of the new ones to the others, though I would have expected both of the new and young snakes to die first instead of one of them and the older one. You never know, though, so some emergency measures to hopefully help it survive the night can be implemented; tomorrow it would be enormously important to get it to a herp-certified vet if you can.

Emergency measures to implement NOW:

1) Increase the heat to the higher end of the corn snake's range, which is generally 80 to 85 deg. F., so aim for 85 deg.

2) If it can hold its head up, soak it in a warm bath, and give it plenty of fresh water. Watch carefully while soaking it to ensure it does not drown.
a) Dehydration is always a concern in a sick reptile, and both these measures will help, but you don't want to chill the snake while soaking it, so be sure to make the water about 85 degrees and keep the snake under a basking light.
b) If the snake cannot hold its head up, do NOT try to soak it, as it could drown.

Those are the two things I would recommend as immediate things you can do to help the snake. You might find this a helpful resource: Guidelines for Medicating Sick Herps (http://www.anapsid.org/signs2.html)


It could also really help us help you if you'd complete this questionnaire:

Reptile & Husbandry Info:
Your reptile - Corn snake, sex??, 8 mos. old. How long has it been in your care?
Handling - How often do you handle your reptile?
Feeding - What are you feeding your reptile? What amount? What is the schedule? When was its last feeding?
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use?
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. When did it last defecate? Has this reptile ever been tested for parasites?


Enclosure Info:
Enclosure Type & Size - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
Substrate: What kind of substrate are you using? How often do you replace it or clean the enclosure?
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
Location - Where are you geographically located?


History - Any previous information about your reptile that might be useful to others when trying to help you. E.g., where did your brother buy it? Were the two young ones sibs? Were they previously kept together?

Current Problem - Two dead, one ill. Symptoms: Gaping, ????

Photo of reptile and enclosure (if at all possible!)

I know this is scary for you and your brother. Hang in there. I hope you're able to save the last one!!!

[samcooper]

Hi, Sam just pointed me to this forum, tha is for your help.

I just typed a really long reply and I didn't post so I'll keep it a little shorter!

The 3 corns are in my living room, the larger male I have owned from very young for 8years now. He was kept in a 3ft x 18" viv, heated by a 200w ceramic heater to 25-26 degrees. The 2 female corns I bought at about 3 months old 8 months ago. They are also in the same sized viv together heated by a 100W red heat bulb off an on/off thermostat. This viv is directly above the larger corn.

Every year around this time the large one always misses a couple of weeks of feeding, so when all 3 didn't eat this weekend I presumed it was all fine. They were active as usual and no signs of stress. Today my partner came in from work and sadly found the large corn and one of the smaller ones dead :(.
The 3rd is deffinatly suffering with the symptoms Sam has given.
It is straining very hard when opening its mouth, and has been sick with water that it drank a few minutes before when straining.

I have moved this one from its viv into a a smaller plastic travel viv and put the others out in the garage to make sure they aren't effecting him if they are carrying anything. This snake is sometimes getting VERY cold and slow. I keep handling it to warm it up and he becomes more active. He hasn't opened and gasped for over an hour now so I hope he is recovering!

I will be keeping him upstairs tonight as I cannot think of anything other than carbon monoxide poisoning to effect them all at once. I havn't had the fire on in the living room for over a week though and I have draft seals between the kitchen/living room where the boiler is located. The cat sleeps in the it hen/utility room at night and is not suffering so insure of what it could be.

Any help is appreciated thank you :(

[RyanReptile]

What were the actual temperatures that were in the enclosure, it sounds a lot like an upper respiratory infection. The humidity would also be helpful. Pictures also always great!

[Chu'Wuti]

When the snake gapes, what color is the interior of its mouth? One symptom of CO poisoning is bright, cherry-pink gums in humans and dogs, so I'm guessing that the interior of the snake's mouth would respond similarly, though I could be mistaken.

[KORBIN5895]

Then tensing doesn't sound good at all. Where do you get your feeders and have you used any cleaning chemicals?

[Chu'Wuti]

The "tensing" behavior he describes could be seizure activity, though I'm only speculating on that based on his belief that CO poisoning is possible. Seizure activity, lethargy, labored breathing, and acting drunk and/or confused are all symptoms of CO poisoning in addition to the cherry-red gums.

[samcooper]

The temperature of the lower viv was 26 when I arrived back from work and I'm not sure what the upper with the 2 younger snakes was as it wasn't my first reaction to check (the lower thermometer stands out more).
The inside of the mouth is nice and pink, not overly red at all.
The mice for the smaller and large are bought from 2 seperate places as one was shut when I bought the last ones (both from major reptile specialists).

I havnt used any cleaning/polishing products in the room for about a week or so, although then it was nothing different to those used since I have had snakes.
I did wonder if the flowers ontop of the viv may have caused a respiratory problem but then they have been there for nearly 3 weeks, so to cause 2 snakes to die within hours if each other seems very strange.
Humidity wise, I don't have anything to check that to be honest. I have always kept the large water bowl filled and have never had a single issue with any of the snakes over 8 years.
Sorry I don't have any images to hand, however I will have a look and see what I can find for you. The vivs are currently out in the garage at the moment.

[ilovemypets1988]

Do u start an engine in ur garage and if so, that will be the cause of death

[Chu'Wuti]

So 26 C is actually pushing the top of the range; is it possible that things overheated for some reason?? Faulty thermostat, bulb going out, ????

Heat rises, so the upper viv could have gotten even hotter, but that doesn't help explain why one of the younger snakes lived while the other died.

I'm still thinking some sort of disease spread from one of the new ones; I urge you to take the remaining snake to a vet, or at least take a fecal sample, though IMHO, a blood draw for analysis for other parasites that won't show up in the feces would be good, too.

I don't get the impression that the snakes are being kept in your garage; am I mistaken??

[samcooper]

Ilovemypets - the snakes have always been kept in my living room, I have out the vivs out I the garage tonight incase there was some form of bacterial infection that may be breeding in them and put the remaining snake in a different plastic viv.

Everything seemed reasonable heat wise, certainly nothing that would have worried me. I did have one of the heaters pack up a few months back and stayed on full all day at work. Luckily the snake was fine and I was able to replace it. As all 3 snakes in 2 seperate vivs have had a problem I don't think it could be temperature related to be honest. I will be getting a carbon monoxide tester in the morning just in case as I can't think what it could be!
Our cat hasn't been out since Christmas (it's only young and the partner is concerned about it running off before it gets the chop!) so that eliminates it bringing something strange in. I've re-checked the viv for mites again and all looks nice and clean. I had mites in there once a few years back when I tried coconut bark on the base as it looked nicer, but soon got rid of that and never had a problem since. Can a general respiratory infection be spread so quickly between all 3 snakes and cause such a quick problem?

[samcooper]

Just a quick update to say the snake seems to be holding its heat abit better now and hasn't appeared to strain since my first post a couple of hours ago. He's occasionally active if I hold him but a little docile compared to normal (as you would expect when pretty ill!).
He doesn't seem to want to drink at the moment.

Hopefully this means he's on the up, which again would imply CM poisoning rather than infection. I have never had any issues before so not sure how well they normally recover.

[ilovemypets1988]

If u can, spray the head very lightly with water so that the corn takes in alike water as that will help with recovery and this does sound more and more like CM poisoning the more updates u post, call an emergency gas company immediately as this can get worse very quickly. At the very least, it will give u piece of mind.

[Chu'Wuti]

Whatever a cat might bring in wouldn't be transmissable to the snakes; I'm pretty confident they don't share any diseases other than, possibly, salmonella, which wouldn't be so fast-acting.

There are a few viral organisms that can pop up in 24-48 hours, but I'm not sure any affect snakes. I am not a vet, so I'm just speculating along with everyone else who has posted so far. That's why I've suggested that you take this one to a vet tomorrow to get a more definitive response.

I'm really glad he seems to be doing better--must be a huge relief to you!!

[SpOoKy]

Where did the topic of co poisining come from? Seems like a little bit of a reach. If this is some type of poisoning then it would more than likely be from human error, cleaning products used in the house or on hands while handling the snakes of feeders. Please do not force any fluids into the snake if he is gasping. Never put liquids any where near something that is unable to control its muscles aand swallowing abilities. Keep in mind snakes don't drinks tons so unless it is showing signes of dehidration there is no need to force water into it. Glad to hear he is doing better, hopefully you can pin point what if any contamination happened.

[SpOoKy]

Most smoke detectors now have built in co monitors so unless yours don't have them they would be going off. Again not sure how we got to co poisoning?

[ilovemypets1988]

Not in the UK, over here, smoke detectors and CM detectors are separate unless it's a mains supplied system

[Chu'Wuti]

Where did the topic of co poisining come from? Seems like a little bit of a reach. If this is some type of poisoning then it would more than likely be from human error, cleaning products used in the house or on hands while handling the snakes of feeders. Please do not force any fluids into the snake if he is gasping. Never put liquids any where near something that is unable to control its muscles aand swallowing abilities. Keep in mind snakes don't drinks tons so unless it is showing signes of dehidration there is no need to force water into it. Glad to hear he is doing better, hopefully you can pin point what if any contamination happened.

I agree that you're probably right that it isn't CO poisoning, but the concern was raised, so it was best to discuss it and the symptoms. As his snake does not have a bright cherry-red mouth, we've already suggested that CO poisoning isn't very likely.

He also says he hasn't used cleaning products in that room in about a week, so that pretty much eliminates them as a possibility, too.

No need to panic about fluids--I'm pretty sure none of us suggested that he FORCE fluids. Following Melissa Kaplan's suggestions (I provided a link to her page for further details), I suggested a warm bath and offering plenty of fresh water, but I didn't tell him to force fluids. I also warned him to watch the snake to be sure it doesn't drown.

We don't need to add to his feelings of stress in this situation; it's better to help him stay calm by being calm ourselves and by offering useful information.

[SpOoKy]

I don't see how I added to his stress when the far fetched idea of co poising came into the conversation. If anything I would have taken my post as being helpful in telling him that the chance of it being co poisoning was slim. As for the water, it was suggested to spray the snakes head with water. Again I simply stated that this was not a good idea considering the snake had been gasping and convulsing. I really don't see anywhere where I would have raised more alarm for the op. To the op, if my post upset you in anyway, I apologize.

[Chu'Wuti]

I don't see how I added to his stress when the far fetched idea of co poising came into the conversation. If anything I would have taken my post as being helpful in telling him that the chance of it being co poisoning was slim. As for the water, it was suggested to spray the snakes head with water. Again I simply stated that this was not a good idea considering the snake had been gasping and convulsing. I really don't see anywhere where I would have raised more alarm for the op. To the op, if my post upset you in anyway, I apologize.

I doubt if you upset him any more than he already was, considering that he lost two snakes, SpOoKy. I agree that it isn't likely CO poisoning, as one of the symptoms doesn't match, but the tensing does suggest convulsions or seizure activity, which is a symptom of CO poisoning. The problem here is that we have inadequate information of why, when he seems to have left three perfectly healthy snakes in the morning, he returned to two dead and one clearly ill; poisoning came up as a plausible guess. There has been a lot of speculation because we simply don't have adequate information to make a credible diagnosis, though I have asked for more information regarding husbandry, feeding, etc.

I apologize for overreacting to your post; upon re-reading it is clear that you only intended to state your opinion firmly and weren't intending for anyone to panic about the fluids issue. Meh . . . my bad. :o

[SpOoKy]

No worries, sometimes it is difficult to get a point across and have everyone on the other end interpret what is typed the same way

[KORBIN5895]

You really need to stop handling it so it can stay in the proper temps.

[Revenant]

With regurge and stress as well, holding off on handling would probably be a good idea. I hope you get some answers.

[RandyRhoads]

You really think the snake would die before any humans in the same household began feeling the effects......

Is there something about this I don't know, like snakes are extremely more sensitive to CO than humans....?

[samcooper]

Thanks for all you help - the snake appears to be doing well this morning!
As soon as I touched her she twitched and reacted as normal, which she wasn't doing at all yesterday. She's also gripping on my fingers with the end of her tail a lot firmer than he could yesterday so hopefully he's recovering.

The reason I suspected it might be CM poisoning was purely because I don't know of any infection that could effect all 3 snakes so quickly with such huge effects. When they are in seperate vivs and nothing obvious to cause it.

I presume that snakes would be like birds where they are very susceptible to gasses and often die before Humans even notice! It might not be at all, but it came up in every conversation I've spoken about it in so a possibility I think.

With regards to handling her, it was only when she seemed to be getting very cold to warm her up and get some energy back into the snake.
Thanks again for all you help guys

[jarich]

Sounds like a viral infection from the new additions. Im sorry to hear of the loss of your snakes, but its a very explicit example of why quarantining new animals is so important.

[Chu'Wuti]

Sounds like a viral infection from the new additions. Im sorry to hear of the loss of your snakes, but its a very explicit example of why quarantining new animals is so important.

I'm in total agreement on that! I quarantine for 4-6 months; most breeders I talk with say a minimum of three months is absolutely essential and several of them quarantine for 6 months routinely. Some diseases can take awhile to show up.

Thinking about the "tensing" activity the OP noted--rather than "convulsions" that could simply have been the snake trying to use muscle activity to keep from getting too cold. In his most recent post, he says, With regards to handling her, it was only when she seemed to be getting very cold to warm her up and get some energy back into the snake. Without an external heat source, the only means of warming up would be muscle activity.

At any rate, we're all glad she's doing better. I would still get her checked for parasites, etc., because we still don't know the cause of death of the other two snakes.

[samcooper]

Thank you for your input on this. Although Bandit (the snake) seems to be a lot better today, I have booked her in for a check up and blood tests tomorrow morning as I want to find out if its something I can prevent in the future. I would like to get another corn to keep her company again at some point as she has always been with the other since they were only a few months old.

I'll update you with the results!

[Lankyrob]

Snakes dont need company to be "happy". It will be perfectly fine on its own, and generally co habitting is not the best idea

[Revenant]

Corns definitely do not benefit from having a cage mate. I definitely wouldn't rush into more snakes until after the mystery deaths are explained as well. Hope you get some answers.