everglades ratsnakes...

[Clownfishie]

Couple of quick questions about these guys that the care sheets that I've found haven't mentioned...

Are they mainly nocturnal, or diurnal?

Do they like to climb (like should I have a branch or something in there for him to climb on?) or are they just as happy on the ground...

Thanks :)
Jen

[rattekonigin]

Obsoleta are nocturnal...They are primarily a terrestrial species, but they will climb branches if they are provided, so I'd say "Why not?"...a branch will let it get some excercise and act as a "diversion"...Though I keep my ratsnakes in a rubbermaid rack, I often feel like I should build larger enclosures for them, with landscaping and branches, and such, 'cause it must get boring with nothing to do but cruise around the bottom...that is, if snakes can even get bored *shrugs* :D

Hope that helps!

[silke]

LOL Jen....how many snakes do you have now? and how many more are youplanning on getting?

I remember when it was just leos and you were 'thinking' about getting a snake

[Clownfishie]

Thanks Rattekonigin ;)

Tee Hee Silke *grin* -- what can I say -- I'm addicted ;) I've actually GOT one snake in the house right now... if I get the everglades, I'll have 2. But as soon as I move out I'll be getting my BRB, and GTP :D Now that's going to be awesome...

In the future, I plan on breeding my BP and BRB -- so later this yera I'll be looking for mates for them. And after that... we'll just have to see ;) If my leo breeding goes well, I might use some of the money to get myself another GTP, or maybe something else... It's all going to depend on space, and having enough money to feed everything... ;)

[Katt]

Rattekonigin. I think it's a bit unsafe to say that obseleta rats are nocturnal. The pupils on obseleta are rounded, much like natricines which are primarily dinural. I am of the belief that rats are neither nocturnal nor dinural, just moving around whenever they feel like.

Here is a quote from a study done on the black rat.

"Discussion: Black rat snake diurnal activity peaked in spring when most reproductive behavior takes place, and snakes became more nocturnal in late summer when daytime temperatures increased. Data from other aspects of our research show these snakes to regularly prey on arboreal birds' nests, and attacking nests at night may decrease risks of predation for climbing snakes. Small mammals, the snakes' principal prey, tend to be active at night and rest in burrows in the day, and it remains unclear when they are most vulnerable to snakes. However, we can speculate about the basic importance of this predator-prey relationship as a significant factor in organizing and possibly constraining the snakes sleep pattern to primarily diurnal and crepuscular periods. Along with ambient temperature, factors such as prey type and availability, predation risk, and reproductive drive interact in complex ways and pose tradeoffs for the organism. Since these factors vary with time, often unpredictably, evolution may have favored flexibility in activity patterns. "

From Behavior Patterns in Free-Ranging Black Rat Snakes by Charles J. Amlaner and James H. Withgott, Department of Life Sciences, Indiana State University, Terre Haute, IN 47809 USA

Keep in mind that glades are supposedly a subspecies of black rats.

As for climbing, remember that glades rats are supposedly a colour variant of the yellow rat. Pantherophis obseleta quadrivittata (yellow rat) are highy arboreal and so it would easy to conclude that glades rats would also be arboreal. I think most of the obseleta are pretty arboreal and take to the trees whenever. I've noticed that my obseletas will climb a lot with my yellows being the most arboreal.

[Katt]

Oops, I wanted to note that, I'm not saying obseleta are arboreal, but they are generally classified as semi-arboreal. I think I read in "Snakes: A study in Behavior and Ecology" that the archtype of the semi-arboreal snake was the black rat and it was found they spend almost equal times on the ground and in the trees.

[rattekonigin]

I am aware that ratsnakes are sort of in the "in between" zone, and like you said, their eyes are of the diurnal type...but I said nocturnal because, in my experience, the ratsnakes don't come out much during the day...I have only seen my ratsnakes moving about during the day on 3 or 4 occasions...so, I said nocturnal because I've read "corns and ratsnakes are diurnal" on so many sites and in books, which makes it seem like the snake will be out and about for viewing during the day, and it usually just isn't the case...so, basically, I didn't want to say "diurnal" and have her be disappointed when her snake mostly comes out at night...
Also, as the study mentioned, their peak activity seems to shift with changing environmental factors, like temperature...and these factors are pretty much constant in captivity (excluding brumation periods, should the snake even be brumated, and light cycles, should the snake be in a room with windows). So, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that the snakes aren't going to exhibit the same behaviour as they would in the wild...

:D

[crimsonking]

Speaking for myself, I feel they will adjust to any lighting schedule you set up. I have found many over the years and really only recall a few found at night, and then it was raining or had just rained. In saying nocturnal/diurnal you've left out crepuscular LOL! I have a few now and notice in captivity they are a little more active in the eves. But then, it could be a reaction to sensing me in the room = dinner time! Other than that, I've found them from right on the ground to 30' in a tree. If you have a cage big enough, I'd say put a branch in and watch 'em take right to it. They love to climb. You will love them and they do seem more "on the ball" than some others. Remember too that it is increasingly difficult to find "pure" rossalleni in the wild, however you may be able to find some c.b.from very good lines. Not all will be screamin' orange. They are inexpensive and to me well worth keeping. I have a few available each year and everyone seems to like 'em.
:Mark

[J_Riley]

Originally posted by Katt
Pantherophis obseleta quadrivittata (yellow rat)

Pantherophis is a little premature, don't you think? I know it has been proposed, but I'm not so quick to jump on that bandwagon yet.

But the content of that post was excellent, thanks!

[Simon R. Sansom]

Hi folks,
I used to have a pair of the "hypomelanistic" 'glades, and I would have to say that I would have classified them as pretty much diurnal, in my experience...normally active during the day, but occasionally crepuscular. I found that my two did make use of climbing branches quite often.
I think that this discussion helps us to realize what great generalists the obsoleta really are!

Cheers!

Simon

[Katt]

Pantherophis is a little premature, don't you think? I know it has been proposed, but I'm not so quick to jump on that bandwagon yet

I am definitely jumping on the bandwagon. North american rats, previously had this Pantherophis genus assigned to them and then were reassigned to Elaphe. The Elaphe genus is a joke and I think it would be a good move for all us of to start using this name. Obseleta and guttata are much more closely related to Pituophis and Lampropeltis genera than to asian Elaphe. To continue calling NA rats Elaphe is to deny this relationshp and artifically group a polyphyletic group for convenience sake.

It may have been just proposed, but I think it's going to go through. The Elaphe genus has been undergoing changes recently and I think this will be one of the more permenant ones.

[J_Riley]

Perhaps, but a lot of the scientists (herpetologists) I've discussed this issue with are skeptical at best, at least until more definitive proof is available.

So there's nothing wrong with European Elaphe or Asian, just NA? Is it not possible that Pits and Lamps evolved FROM Elaphe? that that's why they're so similar?

Personally, Taxonomy makes my head hurt. Trying to take a snap shot in time of a million year process...

artifically group a polyphyletic group for convenience sake.

Isn't that what Taxonomy is? Pigeon holing for our little human brains to be able to comprehend the vastness of evolution?

I'm not trying to get your goat, just have a different opinion and want everyone to be aware it's not a sure thing...yet ;)

[Katt]

Well, taxonomy is supposed to pigeon hole similar animals with the same ancestor that share the same "derived" characteristics.

In the case of NA Elaphe, this is not happening. Asian Elaphe and NA Elaphe do not share a similar ancestor with enough derived characteristics. They deverged quite a while ago.