Regurgitating Rainbow Boa!!!

[nicolerae]

It's so upsetting! My baby Brazilian Rainbow Boa (currently 42g) can't keep a meal down. It was the second attempt to feed her and she regurgitated sometime in the night.

We have only had her for just over a week. Her humidity ranges from 50-70% and she has a humidity hide that is always 100% humidity. She has an heat pad and red light for the night, ambient temperature ranges from 75-85F (We have the day light on a timer).

She has decided to sit at the top of her cage under our day light (not making actual contact with the light) for a majority of the time which is concerning to me as I have been reading that they like cooler temperatures.

This is my fourth snake and I haven't had any of these issues with the others, so I am quite concerned.

We are going to leave her alone for the next couple weeks (no handling or feeding attempts) in order to get her stomach acids back up and I am going to bump up the humidity in her tank to about 85% stating today.

We had fed her a fuzzy mouse which would be the proper size for her but we are going to drop her down to a pinky in the next feeding in a couple weeks.

Is there anything else I can do? If she continues to regurgitate after the next attempt in a couple weeks, I'll be taking her to a vet. I monitor my snakes weight gain very closely so at the sign of any weight loss she will be taken in.

If anyone has had similar issues or any advice that I can additionally use I would be very thankful.

Nicole

[lady_bug87]

Yea I wouldn't handle it again until a successful meal and (this is just my own personal opinion) I would eliminate the red light in favour of a CHE if you need the extra heat.

There are a bunch of schools of thought regarding how long to wait after a regurge to feed again. I would wait a couple days and maybe inject the pinky with some water just to help with hydration.

Considering this is the second consecutive (I'm assuming) regurge i would go ahead and call your vet

[Lankyrob]

Do i understand correctly that you tried two feeds in under a week to a new snake?

Best thingg is to let it settle into its new environment for a week or so before trying again.

[lady_bug87]

Do i understand correctly that you tried two feeds in under a week to a new snake?

Best thingg is to let it settle into its new environment for a week or so before trying again.

I feel like this is wrong information.

I have had snakes come home and eat the same day with no issues.

Also there have been so many discussions on here with info that suggests that there is no need to wait a week. Think about how long its been since this animal kept down a meal already waiting a whole other week isn't necessarily the best option.

[Gravelanche]

i agree, my ball and sand boa both ate the day after they got home, i guess depending on how drastic the move was it could vary slightly. if the boa traveled a long way, or is in a drastically different tank, might make a bit more of a difference to their stress level

[Lankyrob]

I feel like this is wrong information.

I have had snakes come home and eat the same day with no issues.

Also there have been so many discussions on here with info that suggests that there is no need to wait a week. Think about how long its been since this animal kept down a meal already waiting a whole other week isn't necessarily the best option.

Whilst i agree in general that you dont need to leave a snake for a week after a regurge in normal circumstances; if i had a new snake just arrive and eat then regurge i wouldnt then feed again within a week. The regurge is likely due to the stress of moving to a new environment and imo another feeding attempt isnt going to help.

[nicolerae]

Do i understand correctly that you tried two feeds in under a week to a new snake?

Best thingg is to let it settle into its new environment for a week or so before trying again.

The day that we brought her home (Sunday) we fed her small 2 pinkies because at the time there were no fuzzies. She regurgitated one up but kept the other down. So I fed her the next sunday.

I am going to wait a couple weeks and feed her again then take her to a vet. She isn't lethargic, she is very aware and active at this point.

[Lankyrob]

The day that we brought her home (Sunday) we fed her small 2 pinkies because at the time there were no fuzzies. She regurgitated one up but kept the other down. So I fed her the next sunday.

I am going to wait a couple weeks and feed her again then take her to a vet. She isn't lethargic, she is very aware and active at this point.

That sounds better than i thought from the first post where it sounded like two feeds in under a week. I agree waiting in this circumstance would be best.

[nicolerae]

Thanks! We don't power feed are animals and I am very much against that since its drastically decreases their health and life span. We got her from a place that generally underfeeds their animals and we often call it a "rescue". She probably is just a bit overwhelmed with the move. But at least she has one pinky in her, and we know that she had shed just before we got her.

Time will tell I'm thinking.

[lady_bug87]

Whilst i agree in general that you dont need to leave a snake for a week after a regurge in normal circumstances; if i had a new snake just arrive and eat then regurge i wouldnt then feed again within a week. The regurge is likely due to the stress of moving to a new environment and imo another feeding attempt isnt going to help.

I still don't know if I agree with you.

The day that we brought her home (Sunday) we fed her small 2 pinkies because at the time there were no fuzzies. She regurgitated one up but kept the other down. So I fed her the next sunday.

I am going to wait a couple weeks and feed her again then take her to a vet. She isn't lethargic, she is very aware and active at this point.

I would triple check your husbandry
And attempt again.

Also is there any other additional info you may have left out?

[Gravelanche]

in this case i agree with rob, while like i said, mine ate fine, and in many cases they would eat fine, a regurgitation is a pretty clear sign of a stressed snake and after a move its the most likely explanation for the stress.

[lady_bug87]

in this case i agree with rob, while like i said, mine ate fine, and in many cases they would eat fine, a regurgitation is a pretty clear sign of a stressed snake and after a move its the most likely explanation for the stress.

Here is why I think stress has nothing to do with it.

The events as I understand them:
- she got the animal on a Sunday
- fed the animal the same Sunday
- regurge
-waited a week
- fed following Sunday
- regurge

See? If stress was the only reason then it wouldn't have regurged the second time because as you all recommended there was a one week wait.

Had the animal only been fed that second time it still would have puked.

[nicolerae]

I will be triple checking my husbandry when I get home this evening, I also agree lady_bug87. I am also wondering if her stomach acid wasn't up to its particular level.

I'll be sure to update in a couple weeks when we attempt to feed her again.

[mykee]

Stomach acids? They don't need "replenishing".
My guess; husbandry issue.

[NBLADE]

I will be triple checking my husbandry when I get home this evening, I also agree lady_bug87. I am also wondering if her stomach acid wasn't up to its particular level.

I'll be sure to update in a couple weeks when we attempt to feed her again.

They don't replenish or lose stomach acid after a regurge, their stomachs aren't like a mammals, they make the stomach acid when it is needed, they don't have a supply that is always waiting and so feeding a day after a regurge wont have any effect on stomach acids.

You say the ambient temps, but what is the actual hot end basking temperature and the cold side temperature? Sitting out under the light, for a new rainbow boa, is an indicator of trying to soak up more heat, they are a naturally shy species, and it normally takes a while for them to sit out in the open under lights.

From the sounds of it the snake isn't reaching optimum temperature to be able to digest the food properly, could also be down to stress from the move and a new environment, but that would generally mean a lack of feeding rather than happily taking the food to regurge later.

[nicolerae]

She has a heat pad but doesn't utilize it. And the odd thing is she stays under the light even at night after it has turned off.

I'll be triple checking the cage temps when I return home tonight.

[moshirimon]

Rainbow boas are not Boa Constrictors. Try posting in the Epicrates section next time.

As for the regurgitating problem, if your conditions are all correct, i'd say just give her some time. offer food once a week see how it goes. she might just need to settle. If she continues doing this for a while i'd visit the vet. Hope everything turns out okay for her.

[Aaron_S]

I'd be checking all the hides to make sure they are super snug.

As said, they are more of a shy species and needed to be treated like one.

It's your husbandry is my guess.

[Jendee]

So I have new info on this. If she has a habit of regurge...meaning more then once. A week after the last regurge tube feed her greek yogurt. Yogurt carries natural probotics that help the digestion track, also greek yogurt has 22g of protien, and this will help with the dehydration problem that comes with regurge. You can get a tubed syringe at thebeanfarm. Com under health care. Id use the stainless steal ball tipped attatchment as the rubber tube can catch on their teeth. A vet will inject fluids and most likely send you home unless it proves to be some kind of infecton. The regurge discussion last week with Aaron sent me on a mission and i got this advice from 9 out of the 11 old school 20 plus yrs breeders of bcc and bci boas. They all said they used to use nutribac but that yogurt seemed to bounce them back faster. If the regurge is a one time thing i wouldnt recommend putting more stress on her with tube feeding. Only if this becomes a problem that she is becoming weak/malnourished from

[lady_bug87]

Interesting info Jen!

[nicolerae]

Thanks guys. She is what we consider a rescue. We went to the breeders and they gave us probiotic powder to coat the mice in. Hopefully it will help. The cage has been adjusted so that its all good. We will feed her this sunday and see.

[jarich]

So I have new info on this. If she has a habit of regurge...meaning more then once. A week after the last regurge tube feed her greek yogurt. Yogurt carries natural probotics that help the digestion track, also greek yogurt has 22g of protien, and this will help with the dehydration problem that comes with regurge. You can get a tubed syringe at thebeanfarm. Com under health care. Id use the stainless steal ball tipped attatchment as the rubber tube can catch on their teeth. A vet will inject fluids and most likely send you home unless it proves to be some kind of infecton. The regurge discussion last week with Aaron sent me on a mission and i got this advice from 9 out of the 11 old school 20 plus yrs breeders of bcc and bci boas. They all said they used to use nutribac but that yogurt seemed to bounce them back faster. If the regurge is a one time thing i wouldnt recommend putting more stress on her with tube feeding. Only if this becomes a problem that she is becoming weak/malnourished from

The use of probiotics in reptiles, especially probiotics commonly used for people, is an unusual practice and a weird theory. All animals have different bacteria, of course, which compete for dominance in the gut, and there is no evidence that suggests any of the bacteria in typical probiotics have any positive effect on reptiles (especially given the fact that 'reptiles' are such a diverse group of animals, with each species being different) For instance, it has been proven that reptile guts do not contain any species of the lactobacillus bacteria, the most common probiotic listed in yogurt. What would be a better treatment, though it sounds gross, would be to feed your sick snake food that had crap from a healthy snake of the same species on it. At least then they would be getting the right bacteria.

[Jendee]

It sound weird but apparently has been used with positive results for yrs. Even on nwb neonates ghat are being difficult starts a few yogurt feedings and they are 100%. Its just interesting to me

[jarich]

I can see it being possible to effect a change in bacterial growth more with neonates as opposed to adults, as the intestinal flora arent really established yet. However, I have a feeling its one of those things that works because the user wants to think it works.

This would all presuppose a gut bacterial cause for regurgitation as opposed to any other cause though. Which again, I think bacteria from a healthy snake of the same species would work better anyway. Would be an interesting study though.

[Aaron_S]

I can see it being possible to effect a change in bacterial growth more with neonates as opposed to adults, as the intestinal flora arent really established yet. However, I have a feeling its one of those things that works because the user wants to think it works.

This would all presuppose a gut bacterial cause for regurgitation as opposed to any other cause though. Which again, I think bacteria from a healthy snake of the same species would work better anyway. Would be an interesting study though.

Who'd have thunk it that we fully agree?

Anyway, I would side with the fact that yogurt isn't really making the snake better. Have tests been done by these "old timers" before and after yogurt has been administered or were they just eye-balling the health of the snake?

Personally, I don't shove anything into their systems unwarranted by tests or otherwise. Old timers had to rely on themselves some years ago but now we have advanced vet technology. Time to start doing away with the old stuff in certain situations.

[jarich]

Who'd have thunk it that we fully agree?


I'll have to do more research, but I thought there were rules against that. ;)

[Jendee]

Theyve said it works far better then vet care so Im not sure what new technology your talking about. I dont even know what kind of advice your give for regurging beside checking husbandry and not stressing the animal. Regurge can and does become habit forming it does effect the digestio. System and they will dehydrate from it and die. Something at that point needs to be done. And at this point it seems you 2 are the only people i know who say literally no to any idea out there. If people producing 200-300 baby boas a yr tell me this works better then over the counter stuff. Im certainly going to give it a try it is much better then sitting around spending money at a vet over an over for a "problem" child to die

[Ddub]

This is a shot in the dark but how are you measuring your hot spot?

[Aaron_S]

I think these people need to re-check their husbandry if they have that many regurges. I personally just am adverse to shoving things down into my snakes at the sign of a regurge and not being humble enough to admit I may just be doing something wrong with this particular animal.

You are taking these people at their word because they "say it works better than vet care" and because they are 'experienced'. Experienced people can be wrong too and like I said, have they done testing before and after with yogurt? Without yogurt? With this "bad vet care" whatever it is?

I'm not saying it's definitely a no but what's good for us doesn't mean it works for these animals who are known to have a more comprehensive digestive system then we give them credit for.

For the record, I may have never bred boas but I've dealt with a few hundred neonates in my years and I never experienced regurges so I have some experience to draw from.

[Jendee]

I think these people need to re-check their husbandry if they have that many regurges. I personally just am adverse to shoving things down into my snakes at the sign of a regurge and not being humble enough to admit I may just be doing something wrong with this particular animal.

You are taking these people at their word because they "say it works better than vet care" and because they are 'experienced'. Experienced people can be wrong too and like I said, have they done testing before and after with yogurt? Without yogurt? With this "bad vet care" whatever it is?

I'm not saying it's definitely a no but what's good for us doesn't mean it works for these animals who are known to have a more comprehensive digestive system then we give them credit for.

For the record, I may have never bred boas but I've dealt with a few hundred neonates in my years and I never experienced regurges so I have some experience to draw from.

if you haven't experienced a regurge then how would you know how to treat it...baby boas are hard to get going your average litter is what 20 babies at least 2-3 of those 20 babies wont eat or will puke up what you give them. Last season I lost 2 babies one wouldn't eat at all the other gurged once and never recovered from it. Sold the rest all are nice healthy happy babies. I wish I knew about this method then .I wont name drop with the lists of breeders but if I could lol I doubt youd be questioning so much but they are all scrictly bcc/bci breeders so maybe you wouldn't know them and maybe this wouldn't work on other species as that has not been "tested"
but wouldn't hundereds of baby boas using this method for yrs be enough testing? as I said nutrabac used to be the "thing" vets would give/subscribe sometimes most will just give the boa fluids and send you home. and like you say check your temps lol but if your whole snake room or that baby rack that boa is in has perfect temps why would that one baby have a problem. because other factors can play in a roll in a eating problem . once things start going down hill you have to do something to help recovery and all Im saying is this is the #1 thing being used high protein greek yogurt. The big boys swear by it and that enough for me.

[Will0W783]

I think that in the case of regurges, there is always (maybe 99.99999%) an underlying husbandry issue. That may come in the form of the snake simply being offered a meal that was too large for it to digest in a timely fashion, or it may be that the temperatures are not optimal for that species.
Keep in mind that snakes must digest an entire whole prey item...therefore if the ambient temps are too hot, the food will spoil in their gut before they can digest it and they will regurge to prevent sepsis. If the temperatures are too low, the snake will not be able to get its enzymes to work in time to digest the prey before natural decomposition takes over and it will need to regurge to prevent itself from becoming ill. Snakes in the wild occasionally bite off more than they can chew, and will regurge. After, the snake can rest as long as it wants to before eating again.

I have mixed feelings on the probiotics issue. I've used liquified probiotics dissolved in Pedialyte injected into the prey of multiple regurgers I've dealt with in the past. However, I found that if I used probiotics too soon, the snake would simply regurge again. The only consistent thing that I have seen work is giving the animal a rest before its next feeding. Think about how hard muscles must work and how far the prey must come up for a snake to regurge...it can cause damage and stress to the esophagus.

I would be very interested to see studies showing stomach acid content and composition in healthy snakes and in chronic regurgers...we just don't know what's going on inside there really.

I do not think probiotics can hurt, however I would not use yogurt. Snakes do not normally consume dairy products and I would hesitate to introduce a foreign alien substance into an already stressed animal's system. I would think the way to go, if you wish to try probiotics, is to buy pills from a store and dissolve it in unflavored Pedialyte, then inject this solution into the snake's prey item.

However, I think the most important thing to do is give the snake time to rest. For a young or emaciated/thin python/boa, I'd give a week. For an adult of normal body weight, give two weeks. For viperids, give 3-4 weeks of rest before the next feeding.

Just my $0.02 based on my experiences and discussions with other keepers.

[Aaron_S]

lol the big name drop thing. I question "big" ball python breeders so no one is above any questioning.

I don't put people on a pedestal as you seem to do just because they are "big".

For the record, all my experience of baby boas was when I worked in pet stores. We'd buy whole litters. The regurge issues I've seen were from customers who suck.

I would never recommend putting things into prey items. That's my decision.

You had two boas die. One never ate and another "never recovered" from a regurge. Maybe it just wasn't meant to make it? Who wants those genes in the gene pool anyway?

[Jendee]

lol the big name drop thing. I question "big" ball python breeders so no one is above any questioning.

I don't put people on a pedestal as you seem to do just because they are "big".

For the record, all my experience of baby boas was when I worked in pet stores. We'd buy whole litters. The regurge issues I've seen were from customers who suck.

I would never recommend putting things into prey items. That's my decision.

You had two boas die. One never ate and another "never recovered" from a regurge. Maybe it just wasn't meant to make it? Who wants those genes in the gene pool anyway?


Im beginning to doubt you a lot lol
Im not putting anybody on a pedestal but experience comes from doing the more you do the more you learn so getting advice from people who have bred 100s of boas for 10-20 yrs is not a bad idea at a lol
whole selling litters to a pet store..neonates being sent to pet store in "litter" form is going to cause all types of problems and im sure you just blamed it on ****** keepers.
it has nothing to do with genes, are you saying I don't outcross my animals and they are genetically week. everybody loses babies from litters they don't always all make it. the first 12 meals are very crucial. But you clearly don't understand. Ever raise babies from birth..taking them out the goo dealing with yok sacs, partial cords, yok belly, first ever meals, first sheds ect ect then speak on the topic

[Aaron_S]

Im beginning to doubt you a lot lol
Im not putting anybody on a pedestal but experience comes from doing the more you do the more you learn so getting advice from people who have bred 100s of boas for 10-20 yrs is not a bad idea at a lol
whole selling litters to a pet store..neonates being sent to pet store in "litter" form is going to cause all types of problems and im sure you just blamed it on ****** keepers.
it has nothing to do with genes, are you saying I don't outcross my animals and they are genetically week. everybody loses babies from litters they don't always all make it. the first 12 meals are very crucial. But you clearly don't understand. Ever raise babies from birth..taking them out the goo dealing with yok sacs, partial cords, yok belly, first ever meals, first sheds ect ect then speak on the topic

I will in a few years when my boas do breed.

Anyway, as I said, some animals just aren't meant to make it. I don't get what you're arguing with the whole fact I said that. I never said anything about your breeding. I'm just saying some animals shouldn't be allowed to live and go back into the gene pool (not saying YOU but if you sell or whatever)

So the fact I kept literally hundreds of boas a year alive for months on end until they sold doesn't qualify me to say it wasn't an issue I created? Hmm? Odd how after 3 months I sell a boa and all of a sudden it's having problems eating? yeah...my fault. Not theirs....

Anyway, you're straying from the topic at hand and coming at me personally. I just stated my experience so it's not like I am speaking from nothing. That is all I meant by it.

As I said, MY decision to not put random things into snakes or to recommend it.

[Jendee]

100s of boas huh for yrs. How come your not in the boa community at all... I dont invision the boa biz taking your narcissistic self proclaimed einstein (with no credibility besides your 12k post here) very well...so good luck with becoming a hobbiest/breeder dear :) its a hard group to get into. And breeding boas isnt easy either thatll put you to the test for sure

[NBLADE]

if you haven't experienced a regurge then how would you know how to treat it...baby boas are hard to get going your average litter is what 20 babies at least 2-3 of those 20 babies wont eat or will puke up what you give them. Last season I lost 2 babies one wouldn't eat at all the other gurged once and never recovered from it. Sold the rest all are nice healthy happy babies. I wish I knew about this method then .I wont name drop with the lists of breeders but if I could lol I doubt youd be questioning so much but they are all scrictly bcc/bci breeders so maybe you wouldn't know them and maybe this wouldn't work on other species as that has not been "tested"
but wouldn't hundereds of baby boas using this method for yrs be enough testing? as I said nutrabac used to be the "thing" vets would give/subscribe sometimes most will just give the boa fluids and send you home. and like you say check your temps lol but if your whole snake room or that baby rack that boa is in has perfect temps why would that one baby have a problem. because other factors can play in a roll in a eating problem . once things start going down hill you have to do something to help recovery and all Im saying is this is the #1 thing being used high protein greek yogurt. The big boys swear by it and that enough for me.

I dunno what breeders you've been dealing with, baby boas are generally easy to get going when kept in the right conditions, and out of literally hundreds of bci that have been bred here or gone through me, i've not had a single baby regurge anything i've given them, you can get the odd runt that is slow to get started, but it shouldn't be common in every litter, and with a little persuasion will start feeding on their own.

Most regurges people come to me with are due to temperatures being wrong, or they have stressed the snake out somehow, or in bcc cases have fed it like a bci and it can't handle it.

I have heard of the yogurt trick, generally by people who use it for skinny leopard geckos rather than a regurge thing, i've never had to treat a snake for a regurge, i've had a few over the years, generally with older animals, or wc animals that have stressed out, but most i come across are people bringing them to me due to incorrect care, and all i do is get them rehydrated, get the right conditions and then get them feeding again, if the snake is healthy and kept correctly it wont regurge in the first place, but if a snake has a serious health issue that is causing several regurges then they will likely need a lot more than a bit of foreign bacteria in the system to bring them back round.

[Chu'Wuti]

Yogurt works for humans, but using a foreign protein with whey and casein components in an animal whose digestive system never evolved to digest and metabolize those components does not make sense to me. I'd want to see the scientific evidence supporting the yogurt theory in snakes.

Everything I've ever read before suggests that when a snake regurgitates, it needs to be left alone for a week before feeding is attempted again. If it regurgitates a second time, I would try a smaller prey item to see if that helps. I might even try the smaller prey item the second time in hopes of avoiding a second regurge.

That being said, none of my animals has ever regurgitated, but I'm picky about my husbandry, some people would say. Just wondering if maybe people like Aaron_S, who has a LOT of experience, don't have animals that regurgitate because their husbandry and feeding conditions are maintained appropriately for the animal.

It's a thought worth considering.

[Jendee]

And how do you know aaron has alot of experince hes confident and speaks good game but that means nothing. Reputation/proof means something same with the last poster nblade im curios as to why neither of you have your full names here. You could be freaking anybody

[NBLADE]

Yogurt works for humans, but using a foreign protein with whey and casein components in an animal whose digestive system never evolved to digest and metabolize those components does not make sense to me. I'd want to see the scientific evidence supporting the yogurt theory in snakes.

Everything I've ever read before suggests that when a snake regurgitates, it needs to be left alone for a week before feeding is attempted again. If it regurgitates a second time, I would try a smaller prey item to see if that helps. I might even try the smaller prey item the second time in hopes of avoiding a second regurge.

That being said, none of my animals has ever regurgitated, but I'm picky about my husbandry, some people would say. Just wondering if maybe people like Aaron_S, who has a LOT of experience, don't have animals that regurgitate because their husbandry and feeding conditions are maintained appropriately for the animal.

It's a thought worth considering.

The leaving alone for a week is old out dated information, back when they thought snakes digestive systems were similar to mammals, but snakes don;t have a continuous supply of stomach acid like mammals do, they make it when they need it, so the reason people used to say to wait for a few weeks after a regurge was to let them build the stomach acids back up, but scientists done tests on this and it showed the snakes stomach is generally fine after a regurge, sometimes there are exceptions when a prey item can cause damage as the snake is regurging it, but in the majority of cases once the prey has been regurged, the snake is back to normal by the next day after they have had a drink and a rest, as regurging can expell quite a bit of energy and cause them stress.
I generally will just feed as normal the next time they were due, i do often feed something slightly smaller than usual, as if the snake regurged for underlying issues, it would likely regurge again, so a smaller food item would be easier for the snake to bring back up, and if it did so i'd know to then seek a vet to have a look at the stomach, but i've not had to do this ever yet, but generally it will be stress or temperature related, so will be kept down fine, and then next feeding they will go back to normal sized food and carry on from there.

[NBLADE]

And how do you know aaron has alot of experince hes confident and speaks good game but that means nothing. Reputation/proof means something same with the last poster nblade im curios as to why neither of you have your full names here. You could be freaking anybody

Why would i have my full name or be known by any body in the states when most my babies would go to wholesale companies, or shops in the UK, i used to send animals over to Europe aswell but never needed to try and ship to the states. You could name a lot of the big guys you said you spoke to and i'd have no idea who you was talking about. I also know people that have done quite a few world firsts and have bred more animals than a lot of the big breeders, but keep themselves of the internet, and deal solely with wholesale companies and the select few.
These people have great reputations to the people that need to know them.

[Chu'Wuti]

Well, I've known Aaron_S MUCH longer than I've known you, and he's always given me good, credible information, not merely opinions or nonscientific "advice" with no basis in fact. I'm a strong believer in evidence-based (read scientific) information.

And I don't have my full name here to prevent stalking; had that happen when I first joined, and I had to ditch my first user-name and get a new one. But you probably don't really want to know that, do you? Because you don't have YOUR full name here either.

Oh, well, doesn't matter anyway, as full names really don't have anything to do with credibility here.

I sure am seeing a LOT of flaming on this forum lately; it makes me sad. I think it's much more enjoyable and people are more likely to learn more when everyone treats each other with respect. We can agree to disagree with each other's opinions without calling them names or making other ad hominem attacks, can't we? The person who started this thread wants real answers, not a bunch of vitriol to have to wade through hoping to find something of substance to help her problem.

[Jendee]

Here hiding away in this forum he knows everything and is credible here....actually not really because alot of people have left for that reason.
I did list my name im very easy to find as no one else has that name
And that is why the argument started i have tried evidence proven method to work and im being told by mr "experience" and his loyal band wagon followers that im wrong

[Chu'Wuti]

Yes, I agree the name "Jendee" is on the member lists. So is Chu'Wuti.

As I noted, by "evidence-based" I mean scientific, which requires, for example, that something like the use of probiotics or yogurt be tested in multiple snakes with regurgitation issues against multiple controls with regurgitation issues. I'm willing to be that has never been done. Thus, the yogurt and/or probiotics treatments do not qualify as "evidence proven methods." If I'm mistaken about the lack of scientific research on these methods, please do correct me, send me a link, send me a published scientific study--I'd be very glad to read them and learn new tricks for dealing with problems that might occur.

Something can appear to work because the person using that treatment gives the snake a week or so to get better during the treatment. Giving the snake a week or two to rest and get better without the treatment might have worked just as well, but when someone wants to believe that their treatment works, then they will, no matter what.

I'm happy to be on Aaron_S's bandwagon, if that's what you'd like to believe.

[NBLADE]

Here hiding away in this forum he knows everything and is credible here....actually not really because alot of people have left for that reason.
I did list my name im very easy to find as no one else has that name
And that is why the argument started i have tried evidence proven method to work and im being told by mr "experience" and his loyal band wagon followers that im wrong

But i haven't seen any true hard evidence that introducing foreign bacteria into a snakes system will help with a regurge, other than you saying you have spoke to people that say it works, i'd like to see some scientific based facts on it before i'd give it a try, or advise others to do it, as i'd imagine too much or the wrong kind of bacteria introduced to the system could cause some health issues in its own right.
I don't even know who he is so i am no loyal band wagon follower. I'm just shocked that these breeders you speak to seem to be having a few babies in every single litter that are regurging or refusing to feed, bci are generally dustbins, and happilly smash down the food from the get go in my experience, and the odd runt in maybe 1 in 10 litters happens, but they are normally fine once they get feeding.

[Aaron_S]

100s of boas huh for yrs. How come your not in the boa community at all... I dont invision the boa biz taking your narcissistic self proclaimed einstein (with no credibility besides your 12k post here) very well...so good luck with becoming a hobbiest/breeder dear :) its a hard group to get into. And breeding boas isnt easy either thatll put you to the test for sure

lol so now you question me openly? You're a joke at this point. You can ask for my credentials whenever you like. I have nothing to hide.

We're way off topic here.

Anyway, I said I used to keep these litters some years ago. I didn't breed them. My boss had purchased them and I took care of them. I don't get where you think I'm trying to break into some big huge business with boas and trying to make it out be some elite group that's difficult to break into?

And how do you know aaron has alot of experince hes confident and speaks good game but that means nothing. Reputation/proof means something same with the last poster nblade im curios as to why neither of you have your full names here. You could be freaking anybody

I'm not just confident. I speak from experience. I've been lucky that I've had the opportunities to gain experience with a vast amount of species on different levels. If you notice there's certain discussions I refrain from entering because I just have dated information and believe I'm better off suited to reading than posting a whole lot.

My name in the States means nothing. Mykee is a huge breeder up here but you don't see him in the States do you? Do you know of Corey Woods? How about Don Patterson? Henry Piorun? Shane at LegendBoas? Mark Mandic?

Lots of breeders have local or just National markets. I don't need to breed to satisfy the world. I cut my niche and that's that.

Here hiding away in this forum he knows everything and is credible here....actually not really because alot of people have left for that reason.
I did list my name im very easy to find as no one else has that name
And that is why the argument started i have tried evidence proven method to work and im being told by mr "experience" and his loyal band wagon followers that im wrong

lol what? People left because I gave bad information? Sure okay. LOL. You'd be surprised by the PM's I get from older members who come back purely to ask me a question or wish for my personal e-mail to get back to me sooner. Oh and the open thanks in random threads that some people learned a lot from myself and others.

No body is on my bandwagon. NBlade and I do not know each other. Sandy isn't either. I believe we're all just asking for more actual proof instead of "this is what I did. IT HAD TO BE THE REASON THEY LIVED!" We're simply asking for further explanation based on our knowledge of a snake's physiology. We're asking more learning questions and you're just throwing up a wall of "THESE ARE OLD TIMERS THEY KNOW ALL!!!!". I simply asked what kind of proof do they have? This isn't as simple to see as more humidity cures bad sheds. That's easily visible, whereas this is not.

[jarich]

Theyve said it works far better then vet care so Im not sure what new technology your talking about. I dont even know what kind of advice your give for regurging beside checking husbandry and not stressing the animal. Regurge can and does become habit forming it does effect the digestio. System and they will dehydrate from it and die. Something at that point needs to be done. And at this point it seems you 2 are the only people i know who say literally no to any idea out there. If people producing 200-300 baby boas a yr tell me this works better then over the counter stuff. Im certainly going to give it a try it is much better then sitting around spending money at a vet over an over for a "problem" child to die

I think we can all discuss this without it getting so personal. Im especially not sure how I got lumped in with Aaron in any kind of general way, as its usually he and I on the opposing end of every discussion. ;)

However, we do agree on this particular point as there is not only a lack of controlled testing evidence to support the use of probiotics, but actual scientific evidence to dispute it. There are many things that very reputable people think are true until such time as someone comes along to question and test it.

The same seems true here. Conventional wisdom in the past was that large snakes needed time to build up their stomach acids after a regurge. If I remember correctly some of those breeders you are discussing said this still. However, enough scientific study has been done now to show that isnt the case, and as a result we have looked for other causes for repeated regurgitations. This leads to a better understanding of both their physiology and our husbandry too. It seems like probiotics might fall under this same conventional wisdom that proves to be conjectural, and so with further testing could either be shown true or false. At this point controlled testing would need to be done, since its just some people saying it works and others saying it doesnt. All I was saying is that the scientific reasoning for probiotic treatment with yogurt is flawed due to this not being the right bacteria for snakes. Im not saying its absolutely impossible, just that it makes no sense scientifically.

As for the points I highlighted above, I would absolutely question those. What led you to those assumptions? Regurgitation is not a habit, it is a violent physical process with a direct cause. That the cause is not understood by the keeper does not mean it can just be labelled habitual or habit forming. For instance, if you get food poisoning and regurgitate numerous meals its not because of a habit, its because there is a real physical cause behind it.

Regurgitation is also not the same as diarrhea where dehydration would be the cause of death. Snakes who regurge can and do still drink and absorb water. The problem with regurgitation is that digestion is an energetically huge expenditure for these snakes. Restarting the digestive system requires large amounts of energy, amino acids, minerals, etc from a snake, which is normally replaced by that gained from the metabolism of the prey. However, repeated regurgitations mean that much is being repeatedly expended and nothing ever gained, so the animal would essentially be starving and depleted, not so much dehydrated.

So given your incorrect assumptions, and the possibility of passing them on to others, the wrong course of action could be taken and the root problem never solved. Which is why I wanted to present my information regarding the introduction of probiotics. I dont think its necessarily harmful at all, just that it does not address the actual cause of the problem.

As for whether or not something needs to be done in this particular case, I think it was very simple what needed to be done. Let the snake settle in and recheck the parameters of the habitat. The keeper has done both of those things, so I expect that it will do what most digestive problems do in good conditions, and sort itself out without the need for any kind of added unknown extras.

[Aaron_S]

The same seems true here. Conventional wisdom in the past was that large snakes needed time to build up their stomach acids after a regurge. If I remember correctly some of those breeders you are discussing said this still. However, enough scientific study has been done now to show that isnt the case..

I'd just like to point out that no matter who you are,that if you don't keep up with the new information in your direct business or at least remain open minded that there is new and correct information that you are simply a dinosaur and are doomed to fall to the wayside.

It's our job to at least keep an open-mind. Where would we be in monitor keeping if we didn't do this in recent years?

[Jendee]

I corrected the acid thing with hobbiest as most people on my fb are like me small time hobbiest. I personally called/emailed breeders to ask them this info.

Im sooo frustrated about this because I know who I talked too, and I know there wasnt just a handful of them with a handful of experience. So Im willing to place money on the fact that this tip is legit and helpful. But because you guys don't know the credibility of me or whos I talked to your going to question it and that's normal behavior.
But now people aren't even going to consider it an option bc you guys have spat on it so much only because you don't have the info I carry, or know the people I know and I want to beat my head on the wall.
Its really simple and you guys are dissecting it as though you all are doctors, everyone that I know have used it swear by it not one person said they've done it and it doesn't work. Ive seen a ton a ton of regurge posts and you guys to me are giving useless info. the boa is stressed and temps are wrong. well obviously something went wrong so what now. Well I gave a what now. and I well bet my collection on it lol if every breeder you knew who had 500 plus animals and has been doing it for 30 yrs, high profile public people told you that they use it everytime there is hiccup then how is that not enough trial and error proof?? but again I spoke to them not you. So you have a right to disbelief. I will now know not to give advice since its completely pointless here, since I stand alone the op will disregard my tips (that's the frustrating part) and if your saying Im giving incorrect assumptions then Ill make sure to tell the guys that you two Aaron and who knows what your name is, is calling them wrong and idiots!! and if you say you breed boas but have never had a hiccup then to me that makes you even less of a person in my eyes. Its like the Ive never had mites thing..one day it will happen and when you keep a bunch of snakes odds are someone will get sick or have a problem. no good keeper, stable figure in the herp world has a perfect track record I call bullshit

and Aaron...you've run a lot of people off this site. I always saw you as a guy who knows his ****. But Im beginning to feel like your just good at bsing and intimidating the locals here on this forum. From your pet shop experience..I heard ball pythons maybe but that's the jist of it *bow down*

also lady My name is Jendee, not just my members name Jendee Campbell infact google it all day if youd like its me!! No smoke screens here

open minded?? aaron its your way or the high way around here. being open minded would be trying yogurt lol being closed minded is well you cant give dairy products to reptiles...umm im pretty sure dairy product is in the little bellys of those pinkies

[Gravelanche]

it actually makes me sad how much in fighting there is around here, especially with the veteran members. when it comes to forums usually to make it to the thousands of posts there is a level of community and agreement on most things but this place seems to feed off animosity.

granted this thread started with the intent on debate but even the most inocuous threads are spawning some very angry arguments.

[Aaron_S]

it actually makes me sad how much in fighting there is around here, especially with the veteran members. when it comes to forums usually to make it to the thousands of posts there is a level of community and agreement on most things but this place seems to feed off animosity.

granted this thread started with the intent on debate but even the most inocuous threads are spawning some very angry arguments.

Lots of personalities.

Animosity isn't generally a bad thing. Forums don't get big off threads about "nice pic!" type of posts. People lie when they say they don't like the drama. They read the drama filled threads the most.

[jarich]

Please don't feel so frustrated, as its not personal at all. In fact the whole point of science is to take the personal out of the equation. We are all just discussing information in an attempt to get further ahead collectively. That hopefully means that sometimes we are right, sometimes wrong, but always willing to see reason.

It was never my attempt to spit on anyone or be abusive, just to question a hypothesis that doesn't make sense based on my research. It's not the credibility of your breeders that's in question, I don't think anyone is questioning their ability to breed. However the information itself does not seem credible when viewed in light of what are known facts. Again there are plenty of examples of perfectly great breeders continuing for years with other mistaken beliefs. The smartest people in the world thought Earth was the center of the universe for centuries until one guy said, "hang on a minute, this doesn't add up..." ;)

[lady_bug87]

it actually makes me sad how much in fighting there is around here, especially with the veteran members. when it comes to forums usually to make it to the thousands of posts there is a level of community and agreement on most things but this place seems to feed off animosity.

granted this thread started with the intent on debate but even the most inocuous threads are spawning some very angry arguments.

This coming from the guy who's been on a rampage in the last 2 'innocuous' threads he himself started....

[Gravelanche]

This coming from the guy who's been on a rampage in the last 2 'innocuous' threads he himself started....

you are right, and it got so out of hand that i took a step back and realized how bad it gets here. I'm starting a personal promise to try my hardest to simply ignore people who get under my skin.

[lady_bug87]

As an active forum member (who does get into her fair share of trouble time to time) I appreciate that

[Aaron_S]

I tried to walk away but you decided to attack my character, knowledge and experience. I take that to heart because it isn't just mere hours or anything spent researching or reading it's been years.

Im sooo frustrated about this because I know who I talked too, and I know there wasnt just a handful of them with a handful of experience. So Im willing to place money on the fact that this tip is legit and helpful. But because you guys don't know the credibility of me or whos I talked to your going to question it and that's normal behavior.
But now people aren't even going to consider it an option bc you guys have spat on it so much only because you don't have the info I carry, or know the people I know and I want to beat my head on the wall.

We didn't spit on it. We said science has proven that it isn't actually the cure it's being claimed to be. I also don't care who you know or who they are. I couldn't careless if it was Jeff Ronne, Brian Sharp, Rich Isle or the Barkers. I'd debate with them just the same. We all know the likes of who you believe to be a "someone". We saw what happened there didn't we?

Your whole point from these people is that if I am sick and take a teaspoon of vinegar everyday before I take my medication that it was the vinegar that cured me.

My point this whole time has been that there is no definite proof of that yogurt is a cure to regurges. Do you have the timeline of when this was administered and when the next meal was offered? I and others believe that whoever you speak to is pointing a finger at yogurt while in reality there's another underlying actual solution to the problem.

I guess it's okay to believe in this miracle cure for your snakes. The history of mankind is rife with such foolish beliefs in cure-alls and miracle cures.

if every breeder you knew who had 500 plus animals and has been doing it for 30 yrs, high profile public people told you that they use it everytime there is hiccup then how is that not enough trial and error proof??

Again, see above for my proof of why it isn't enough proof. I believe there's another reason for it and it has nothing to do with yogurt.


and if you say you breed boas but have never had a hiccup then to me that makes you even less of a person in my eyes. Its like the Ive never had mites thing..one day it will happen and when you keep a bunch of snakes odds are someone will get sick or have a problem. no good keeper, stable figure in the herp world has a perfect track record I call bullshit

Where did I state I currently breed boas? Where did I say I've never had a hiccup. I said I've never had the blatant problems with regurge as you seem to and your highly touted breeders.


and Aaron...you've run a lot of people off this site. I always saw you as a guy who knows his ****. But Im beginning to feel like your just good at bsing and intimidating the locals here on this forum. From your pet shop experience..I heard ball pythons maybe but that's the jist of it *bow down*

So someone left because of me? Kind of a sad person who leaves an entire forum due to one person when there's an ignore function.

What BS have I given? I'm sure all the people who ask me for advice and have healthy animals would say otherwise.

So you've heard I keep ball pythons currently MAYBE? My pictures don't prove that? The fact that I've been in the hobby for over a decade means I apparently can NEVER own anything else? Really? You decided to stoop to a rather childish level.

open minded?? aaron its your way or the high way around here. being open minded would be trying yogurt lol being closed minded is well you cant give dairy products to reptiles...umm im pretty sure dairy product is in the little bellys of those pinkies

I'm not closed minded to trying it. I've stated multiple times for MORE information in regards to any testing your sources have done for a definite answer. As stated at the beginning of this that I believe something else is helping the animals and you have yet to prove me wrong because you haven't answered my questions. I'll repeat them.

What time line did your sources use?
How often did they administer the yogurt?
What are the exact ingredients of the yogurt?
How soon after administering the yogurt was prey offered? If so was it taken?
What size prey is being offered? How often?

[Chu'Wuti]

Im sooo frustrated about this because I know who I talked too, and I know there wasnt just a handful of them with a handful of experience. So Im willing to place money on the fact that this tip is legit and helpful. But because you guys don't know the credibility of me or whos I talked to your going to question it and that's normal behavior.

Yes, you are absolutely correct, Jendee--that IS normal behavior; in fact, in academic research, it's REQUIRED behavior, and that's the world in which I live.

As Jarich said, its not personal at all. In fact the whole point of science is to take the personal out of the equation. We are all just discussing information in an attempt to get further ahead collectively. That hopefully means that sometimes we are right, sometimes wrong, but always willing to see reason. (bold added for emphasis)

Jarich also said, and this is my position as well: It was never my attempt to spit on anyone or be abusive, just to question a hypothesis that doesn't make sense based on my research.

YOU know who you talked to, but WE don't. We still don't have ANY scientific evidence to support anyone's claim that yogurt will cure regurgitation. Evidence all we're asking for.

Aaron's questions, i.e., What time line did your sources use?
How often did they administer the yogurt?
What are the exact ingredients of the yogurt?
How soon after administering the yogurt was prey offered? If so was it taken?
What size prey is being offered? How often? are all completely reasonable questions to ask when someone tells us of a "cure" that we've never heard of before. I myself would still want a comparison study of a regurge group fed yogurt versus a regurge group treated the "old" way or simply left alone for awhile before being offered food again--a control group, as we call them in scientific research.

And as I think I mentioned previously (if I didn't, I intended to), snakes did not evolve on cow's milk or yogurt; they do not have the digestive enzymes needed to digest cow's milk or yogurt properly, which makes me even more hesitant to try something like this without further evidence that it works. Giving an animal a food item that it did not evolve to eat can make it very sick.

Why does it bother you so much that we're asking reasonable questions? EVERYONE on this forum should be able to ask questions in order to learn more and in order to assess the information they're given for its validity and credibility, including you. I understand that you trust the people from whom you got the information about using yogurt; that's fine, but we don't know them, so we can't trust them.

Asking questions isn't spitting on something.

Asking questions is SMART. That's how we learn.

[NBLADE]

I corrected the acid thing with hobbiest as most people on my fb are like me small time hobbiest. I personally called/emailed breeders to ask them this info.

Im sooo frustrated about this because I know who I talked too, and I know there wasnt just a handful of them with a handful of experience. So Im willing to place money on the fact that this tip is legit and helpful. But because you guys don't know the credibility of me or whos I talked to your going to question it and that's normal behavior.
But now people aren't even going to consider it an option bc you guys have spat on it so much only because you don't have the info I carry, or know the people I know and I want to beat my head on the wall.

We haven't spat all over it, just asked for some reasonable scientific evidence that introducing a foreign bacteria into a snakes system is helpful, as before it is given out as advice to try on a snake that has regurged once, likely due to husbandry issues, i'd personally like to know of any issues that can come from it, or if there are any types that can have a negative effect on the snakes body.


Its really simple and you guys are dissecting it as though you all are doctors, everyone that I know have used it swear by it not one person said they've done it and it doesn't work. Ive seen a ton a ton of regurge posts and you guys to me are giving useless info. the boa is stressed and temps are wrong. well obviously something went wrong so what now. Well I gave a what now. and I well bet my collection on it lol if every breeder you knew who had 500 plus animals and has been doing it for 30 yrs, high profile public people told you that they use it everytime there is hiccup then how is that not enough trial and error proof??


We have said what to do, check the husbandry, make sure everything is spot on, leave the snake to settle, as a new shy species of snake will often need time to adjust before the stress levels go down, then feed again, which is a lot less risky than introducing foreign substances into snakes systems.


but again I spoke to them not you. So you have a right to disbelief. I will now know not to give advice since its completely pointless here, since I stand alone the op will disregard my tips (that's the frustrating part) and if your saying Im giving incorrect assumptions then Ill make sure to tell the guys that you two Aaron and who knows what your name is, is calling them wrong and idiots!! and if you say you breed boas but have never had a hiccup then to me that makes you even less of a person in my eyes. Its like the Ive never had mites thing..one day it will happen and when you keep a bunch of snakes odds are someone will get sick or have a problem. no good keeper, stable figure in the herp world has a perfect track record I call bullshit

I've not called any body an idiot, i'm just asking for more proof, i don't care if the person was the most well known person in the industry or some back yard breeder, i'd be asking the same things, in the aid to learn more about the risks, if someone reads this and sees yogurt is supposed to work, goes and gets some after a snake has regurged due to incorect husbandry, gets loads of yogurt into the snakes stomach, and then has the snake go on to die due to an over load of the wrong bacteria, or the yogurt kills of the good bacteria in the snakes system, then what happens? I don't think it is wrong to be cautious about such advise until the scientific studies have been taken out and proven side effects are listed. As for never having a hiccup, of course we all have, it happens when breeding animals, you can get the odd egg bound female, or in boas cases, you can get the slug out and still borns, when you are working with so many animals, some will die during breeding, it happens, but to consistently get bad feeders and snakes that actually regurge straight from being born, in every single littler, there is definitely either a husbandry issue, a stress issue, or that is a very weak liken to be breeding together.


and Aaron...you've run a lot of people off this site. I always saw you as a guy who knows his ****. But Im beginning to feel like your just good at bsing and intimidating the locals here on this forum. From your pet shop experience..I heard ball pythons maybe but that's the jist of it *bow down*

also lady My name is Jendee, not just my members name Jendee Campbell infact google it all day if youd like its me!! No smoke screens here

open minded?? aaron its your way or the high way around here. being open minded would be trying yogurt lol being closed minded is well you cant give dairy products to reptiles...umm im pretty sure dairy product is in the little bellys of those pinkies


Answers in red, but i'm all for being open minded and trying new techniques, when they are shown to me to be non detrimental to the health of my animals, but for now, with a one off regurge, likely caused by husbandry issues and stress of the move, it seems pointless to risk introducing a foreign substance into a snake for no reason.

[Jendee]

I tried to walk away but you decided to attack my character, knowledge and experience. I take that to heart because it isn't just mere hours or anything spent researching or reading it's been years.

Oh you read a book?? You've had one season of breeding ball pythons?? anybody can breed ball pythons its why a lot of hobbiest sell out of boas and go to balls bc they are easier to breed and easier to care for. Having read a few articles or a book or 2 and having one season of breeding pythons no where near make you the authority you claim (on pythons not even touching the boa subject) or that your little followers here claim. Step out of ssnakess and met the real world

We didn't spit on it. We said science has proven that it isn't actually the cure it's being claimed to be. I also don't care who you know or who they are. I couldn't careless if it was Jeff Ronne, Brian Sharp, Rich Isle or the Barkers. I'd debate with them just the same. We all know the likes of who you believe to be a "someone". We saw what happened there didn't we?

I see a few correct names add few more to that list and your golden. I have alerted them to this thread but they either don't care or ask me why I bother...which is true I don't understand why I argue with you people maybe I like it
I didn't know him by the way (my first mistake) and just bc your a snake in the grass doesn't mean you haven't gained knowledge from having..whats does that guy have 800 breeding animals I think he told me. that ******* knows his ****!!

Your whole point from these people is that if I am sick and take a teaspoon of vinegar everyday before I take my medication that it was the vinegar that cured me.

I was reading a post that you were giving a python mineral oil for constipation isn't that the same thing sir

My point this whole time has been that there is no definite proof of that yogurt is a cure to regurges. Do you have the timeline of when this was administered and when the next meal was offered? I and others believe that whoever you speak to is pointing a finger at yogurt while in reality there's another underlying actual solution to the problem.

I guess it's okay to believe in this miracle cure for your snakes. The history of mankind is rife with such foolish beliefs in cure-alls and miracle cures.

nobody said it was the cure! I simply said it would aid in recovery this isn't a gurge treatment if its a continual thing it has been proven to help

Again, see above for my proof of why it isn't enough proof. I believe there's another reason for it and it has nothing to do with yogurt.




Where did I state I currently breed boas? Where did I say I've never had a hiccup. I said I've never had the blatant problems with regurge as you seem to and your highly touted breeders.

(I was told)
Pythons rarely regurge you have to be seriously ****ing up for a python to regurge in most case its from low temps. you can feed large items, stress the animal and they hold it down.
boas <~~~this I know can gurge from temps being to high or to low. from stress via to much handling, loud noises, a move or shipment, you just cleaning out there cage lol baby boas can be a bit jumpy. If not careful the one regurge can become chronic.
I never said Ive had a serious issue with this Ive had a baby boa do this and die from dehydration. caused by the regurge at 3 wks old a regurge isn't a good thing at all!

So someone left because of me? Kind of a sad person who leaves an entire forum due to one person when there's an ignore function.

What BS have I given? I'm sure all the people who ask me for advice and have healthy animals would say otherwise.

Funny every single thread that looks like this you are at the four front. Your rude and a know it all and yet you've read a book and had a handful of python eggs lol A lot of people ask me for advice everyday most already have healthy animals and are just concerned newbies looking for knowledge and your point is??

So you've heard I keep ball pythons currently MAYBE? My pictures don't prove that? The fact that I've been in the hobby for over a decade means I apparently can NEVER own anything else? Really? You decided to stoop to a rather childish level.

proof is in the pudding honey your not fooling me



I'm not closed minded to trying it. I've stated multiple times for MORE information in regards to any testing your sources have done for a definite answer. As stated at the beginning of this that I believe something else is helping the animals and you have yet to prove me wrong because you haven't answered my questions. I'll repeat them.

What time line did your sources use?
How often did they administer the yogurt?
What are the exact ingredients of the yogurt?
How soon after administering the yogurt was prey offered? If so was it taken?
What size prey is being offered? How often?


I have 6 possible litters this yr. If everyone drops viable litters. I record everything in records, poop, pee, sheds, feeding ect If and when I have a problem child whether that be a difficult starter or a gurge Ill record my yogurt trails and copy/scan and report here. My first litter for this season drops in 5 wks.

[Aaron_S]

I have 6 possible litters this yr. If everyone drops viable litters. I record everything in records, poop, pee, sheds, feeding ect If and when I have a problem child whether that be a difficult starter or a gurge Ill record my yogurt trails and copy/scan and report here. My first litter for this season drops in 5 wks.

A whole 6 litters?! Really? You're so awesome.



Oh you read a book?? You've had one season of breeding ball pythons?? anybody can breed ball pythons its why a lot of hobbiest sell out of boas and go to balls bc they are easier to breed and easier to care for. Having read a few articles or a book or 2 and having one season of breeding pythons no where near make you the authority you claim (on pythons not even touching the boa subject) or that your little followers here claim. Step out of ssnakess and met the real world

LOL. I've read many books and talked to many people. I've been reading and learning for quite some time. I don't have followers. Apparently caring for animals doesn't give anyone any experience. Only breeding does? Really?

What's your issue with ball pythons? I've never once said it's difficult to breed them. I've said multiple times how I can give my nephew some and he'd be able to accomplish it too. Boas are slightly more difficult but not nearly what you're making them out to be.

I see a few correct names add few more to that list and your golden. I have alerted them to this thread but they either don't care or ask me why I bother...which is true I don't understand why I argue with you people maybe I like it
I didn't know him by the way (my first mistake) and just bc your a snake in the grass doesn't mean you haven't gained knowledge from having..whats does that guy have 800 breeding animals I think he told me. that ******* knows his ****!!

So you're still going to believe his words after you find out he's a liar? Wow. You're something else.

I was reading a post that you were giving a python mineral oil for constipation isn't that the same thing sir

How old was that post? As I've stated MANY times. It's about evolving and finding new information. Some things get dated and were wrong.


nobody said it was the cure! I simply said it would aid in recovery

Yes, you said the big breeders who you randomly e-mailed or called (doesn't count as knowing them if you just know their business/reputation) said it was even better than vet care! Definitely sounds like you're saying it's a cure. Too bad it isn't even remotely true.


I went searching through the thread and found this in your first post about yogurt. A week after the last regurge tube feed her greek yogurt.

Funny how it aids a WEEK after the last regurge. Hmm..common sense would dictate it isn't the yogurt doing anything but time itself.


(I was told)
Pythons rarely regurge you have to be seriously ****ing up for a python to regurge in most case its from low temps. you can feed large items, stress the animal and they hold it down.
boas <~~~this I know can gurge from temps being to high or to low. from stress via to much handling, loud noises, a move or shipment, you just cleaning out there cage lol baby boas can be a bit jumpy. If not careful the one regurge can become chronic.
I never said Ive had a serious issue with this Ive had a baby boa do this and die from dehydration. caused by the regurge at 3 wks old a regurge isn't a good thing at all!

Yes, pythons don't regurge normally so in my home with my personal collections over the years I've never experienced. Do note that I've had other species, including some boas, and neither have they. Apparently I don't have any experience though.

Also I've never said it wasn't an issue. It can be issue but not one that is as big as you say. Did you get a necropsy done on your dead boa or did you just presume or were told that it was dehydration?


Funny every single thread that looks like this you are at the four front. Your rude and a know it all and yet you've read a book and had a handful of python eggs lol A lot of people ask me for advice everyday most already have healthy animals and are just concerned newbies looking for knowledge and your point is??

You never answer my questions. Why do you avoid them? Keep deflecting. You state I am full of BS. I asked where have I? You didn't answer. I guess you've got to twist things to make your point and make your petty attempt to discredit me. I have done more than read a book and had a handful of python eggs. You're welcome to make petty comments though. Makes you look big.

So you've heard I keep ball pythons currently MAYBE? My pictures don't prove that? The fact that I've been in the hobby for over a decade means I apparently can NEVER own anything else? Really? You decided to stoop to a rather childish level.

proof is in the pudding honey your not fooling me

And where do you get this information? Fool you how? I'm not trying to fool anyone. I know my experience and know what I've kept. You can say I'm just a ball python breeder all you want but the fact is I've done far more than that well before I took that on. You're welcome to your crazy views though.

When do you plan on answering these?

What time line did your sources use?
How often did they administer the yogurt?
What are the exact ingredients of the yogurt?
How soon after administering the yogurt was prey offered? If so was it taken?
What size prey is being offered? How often?

[NBLADE]

Why has this become personal? I thought it was going alright with decent points from both sides, but it now seems the good points are being over looked and it is just turning into personal insults. If we could get it back on track to a decent debate then new comers to the hobby could potentially learn something.

[Aaron_S]

Why has this become personal? I thought it was going alright with decent points from both sides, but it now seems the good points are being over looked and it is just turning into personal insults. If we could get it back on track to a decent debate then new comers to the hobby could potentially learn something.

I tried and my character was continually being attacked and degraded.

Technically it's libel at this point.

[Jendee]

Ive made my points. they are clear and I am done. I haven't answered the questions as Ive personally never done the yogurt thing. Other people have. When I do this season for my problem child or children from my litters this yr Ill record everything and bring it back here

[NBLADE]

Ive made my points. they are clear and I am done. I haven't answered the questions as Ive personally never done the yogurt thing. Other people have. When I do this season for my problem child or children from my litters this yr Ill record everything and bring it back here

But you've not addressed any of the counter points, its just been this is how some big breeders do it, and they are right because they breed a lot, there has been some good counter points made against it, but you've chosen to attack reputation rather than pick up on them points.

[Jendee]

all you guys are saying is that it unnatural and that you wouldn't do it..what am I supposed to say to that it is unnatural??

That doesn't mean something that is unconventional is always wrong. If they've used it over and over without ill affect why not give it a try and see for yourself.

I attacked mr know it all lol and pointed out the fact that Aaron has as much experience as me we are pretty freakin even yet he acts like god, and you who are you know one knows. So while your dropping your credentials and your experinces im simply pointing out that know one really knows how truthful that really is...

but the breeders im discussing are very public and are proven in there business

[Chu'Wuti]

Jendee says, If they've used it over and over without ill affect why not give it a try and see for yourself.

. . .

but the breeders im discussing are very public and are proven in there business

I must have missed the post in which you named them. So who are they, Jendee?

[lady_bug87]

I honestly think this has gone WAY too far.

Jen, if no one listens to the yogurt thing its not because of Aaron, NBLADE, Sandy or anyone else who disagrees.

Its been my experience that when we resort to personal attacks to prove what could be an academic or at the very least scientific point, the whole argument becomes moot.

I can't take anyone seriously (not just you) when they approach colleagues of equal standing (your words) this way

[NBLADE]

all you guys are saying is that it unnatural and that you wouldn't do it..what am I supposed to say to that it is unnatural??

That doesn't mean something that is unconventional is always wrong. If they've used it over and over without ill affect why not give it a try and see for yourself.

I attacked mr know it all lol and pointed out the fact that Aaron has as much experience as me we are pretty freakin even yet he acts like god, and you who are you know one knows. So while your dropping your credentials and your experinces im simply pointing out that know one really knows how truthful that really is...

but the breeders im discussing are very public and are proven in there business

My last post that had the answers in red had some good points, could have addressed them, and if you couldn't answer any of them it seems that you don't know enough on the subject to be able to advise it safely. Which is one of the points i was trying to make.

And why not give it a try and see for myself? I don't know about you but i am not in the habit of just gambling with a living things life, why try something that has no scientific evidence to back it up when all that is needed is to fix the husbandry issue, keep the snake hydrated with water, and problem solved.

I've dropped no credentials about myself, just stated that in my experience i have never needed to use yogurt for a regurge, in many hundreds of animals, i didn't even get into the fact of tube feeding, which i'd never advise someone new to the hobby try on an already stressed animal, as the stress from that and the risk of damage to the snake from that alone is great to someone who doesn't know what they are doing.
But credentials or no credentials, everything i have said has scientific evidence to back that up, so even if i had no experience at all, what has been said can be proven by science to be correct. Also just because you don't know who i am doesn't mean other people do not, just because someone in America where i have no dealings with minus the odd holiday to new york in the past, not knowing who i am doesn't discredit what i have said, when it can easily be backed up by scientific papers.

[mykee]

I can stand up for Aarons experience; he's been in this hobby for FAR longer than I have known him (I've known him ten years) and this dude isn't just a ball python all-star, but he knows way too much stuff about every species. His knowledge kills me.
As for his character; he's a douchbag. My BFF, but a collosal douchebag.

NOW:
I agree with Jendee 100%.
I have a few ball pythons with Colitis (self-diagnosed).
They cramp up, have runny stool, and have lost weight.
I decided to take the holistic approach with them and started administering not only Acidophilus tablets crushed up, but a One-a-Day tablet (Centrum), and have started adding cranberry juice to their water supply. I am also considering both acupuncture and massage as a secondary treatment.
I provide them with a once-weekly epsom salt bath, as well as aromatherapy treatment.
I have found that since starting this new regimen, that my sick balls have improved greatly.
SO LEAVE JENDEE ALONE!!!

[Aaron_S]

all you guys are saying is that it unnatural and that you wouldn't do it..what am I supposed to say to that it is unnatural??

That doesn't mean something that is unconventional is always wrong. If they've used it over and over without ill affect why not give it a try and see for yourself.

I attacked mr know it all lol and pointed out the fact that Aaron has as much experience as me we are pretty freakin even yet he acts like god, and you who are you know one knows. So while your dropping your credentials and your experinces im simply pointing out that know one really knows how truthful that really is...

but the breeders im discussing are very public and are proven in there business

So you can call all the people "you know" and ask them about regurges and then when posted people ask follow questions. Now you can no longer go ask them these follow up questions?

You don't know much I don't think. There's a lot of "proven breeders" who have quite the sordid past.

As I stated, I don't tread where I can easily get lost. Do you see me talking about amphibian care in depth? What about the asian ratsnake care? Scrub pythons? Nope. I'm not a fool enough to tread where I haven't tread myself. Some things learned can transfer species and that is where I will gladly say something about it.

[NBLADE]

I can stand up for Aarons experience; he's been in this hobby for FAR longer than I have known him (I've known him ten years) and this dude isn't just a ball python all-star, but he knows way too much stuff about every species. His knowledge kills me.
As for his character; he's a douchbag. My BFF, but a collosal douchebag.

NOW:
I agree with Jendee 100%.
I have a few ball pythons with Colitis (self-diagnosed).
They cramp up, have runny stool, and have lost weight.
I decided to take the holistic approach with them and started administering not only Acidophilus tablets crushed up, but a One-a-Day tablet (Centrum), and have started adding cranberry juice to their water supply. I am also considering both acupuncture and massage as a secondary treatment.
I provide them with a once-weekly epsom salt bath, as well as aromatherapy treatment.
I have found that since starting this new regimen, that my sick balls have improved greatly.
SO LEAVE JENDEE ALONE!!!


I'm not attacking anybody, all i am asking for is for more information on it, i'd never advise tube feeding it, as i see tube feeding as completely unnecessary and have never had to do it, there are better ways of feeding snakes IMO, but that is another discussion, but i would like to know more on something that scientifically makes little sense as to why it would work.

Don't get me wrong i have tried many things over the yrs, and you gradually tweak things as the animal responds and you can go on an animal to animal basis, so i am not closed to trying new things, i'm just not too sure if somebody should be advising someone to try something when they themselves have never tried it, and when there is little evidence to back up any success, and the risks are unknown, and when it is completely unnecessary as the snake has only regurged once, likely caused by slight issues with the husbandry.
I would have liked this to have not broken down into personal insults and pettyness, so have tried to avoid any name calling or slagging off and stick to the subject at hand. After all it is only the welfare of the animals that i have in mind.

[Jendee]

I knew when posting the tip that I found I would be attacked! if you didn't notice I was completely positive about this crap until I was or anybody who uses this method is an idiot and killing their boas. Then when I go looking into whatever experience you people have suddenly Im the bad guy!!
@sandy, I don't plan too since their methods have been called foolish I have linked them to this thread and they simpley say there are a bunch of idiots here, moot point, why bother, who cares al valid points I see
@lady bug Im not attacking anybody to say yogurt works ive personally NEVER used it!! Im simply that people swear by it. Im attacking the fact that Im being shot down for what trying to help!? and Im being shot down by the people that hide in their little ssnakess corners
@nblade you swear that you've never had an issue with the lots of boas you have had, which is crap. you can slam a door to loud and a baby boa can chuck up their meal, its a survival instinct now that is scientific!! this wasn't a gamble on a living life this was if the vet has no answers and your snake is knocking on deaths door then lets try it advice although people I know use it before it even reaches that point snakes back to thriving without problems. Again I don't know this from personal experience so quit attacking me. I also stated that tube feeding will stress out an already stressed animal please say something I didn't already know!! im so tried of the scientific bullshit you guys keep throwing at me. nothing about keep snakes in a tub feeding them weekly ect ect is scientific it works and people do it bottom line you don't keep your snakes in labs. I know plenty of people over seas...full name to look up would be nice..web site...facebook must sell all those babies you make some where?? craigslist come on

@mkkee your the biggest jerk here!! and you have balls that's like grade school reptile. the first reptile almost any child gets is a ball because they are so freakin easy to take care of...so its easy for you to scoff at any ideas people have when they run into a wall with there animals. really aaron has 10 plus years of experience because in 2003 on this site he didn't have crap and was on here asking questions just like any other noob. a ball python all star does 3 clutches in 2011 count as that wow that would make me a rock star now wouldn't it!!

you people are jerks I was just passing on information and defending myself!! temps and husbandry are usually the issue but not always. vets don't offer much with gurge not much more then you guys have my bad for trying to pass on something that ive been told and researched (as far as getting opinions of a lot of people that I respect) I can see why everybody is leaving this place you guys have fun playing king of the castle in your sand box!!

[Chu'Wuti]

Wow. If your sources are credible, then you should be willing to name them.

No one is calling you names, but you are calling everyone else names.

I'm outta here.

[NBLADE]

I knew when posting the tip that I found I would be attacked! if you didn't notice I was completely positive about this crap until I was or anybody who uses this method is an idiot and killing their boas. Then when I go looking into whatever experience you people have suddenly Im the bad guy!!

I still don't see anywhere someone saying that people that do it are idiots and killing their boas, all i've said is that i'd like to know more before spreading advice that could potentially have some nasty side effects.


@sandy, I don't plan too since their methods have been called foolish I have linked them to this thread and they simpley say there are a bunch of idiots here, moot point, why bother, who cares al valid points I see
@lady bug Im not attacking anybody to say yogurt works ive personally NEVER used it!! Im simply that people swear by it. Im attacking the fact that Im being shot down for what trying to help!? and Im being shot down by the people that hide in their little ssnakess corners

@nblade you swear that you've never had an issue with the lots of boas you have had, which is crap. you can slam a door to loud and a baby boa can chuck up their meal, its a survival instinct now that is scientific!! this wasn't a gamble on a living life this was if the vet has no answers and your snake is knocking on deaths door then lets try it advice although people I know use it before it even reaches that point snakes back to thriving without problems. Again I don't know this from personal experience so quit attacking me. I also stated that tube feeding will stress out an already stressed animal please say something I didn't already know!! im so tried of the scientific bullshit you guys keep throwing at me. nothing about keep snakes in a tub feeding them weekly ect ect is scientific it works and people do it bottom line you don't keep your snakes in labs. I know plenty of people over seas...full name to look up would be nice..web site...facebook must sell all those babies you make some where?? craigslist come on

Slam a door and have a boa regurge? never had that happen, as i said in another post, of course i've had issues, you never go all these years without a few popping up, to get consistent regurges and poor feeders however, is completely different from a one off regurge caused by stress.
As i said above, i don't think i have attacked you once, i'm just addressing each point you make, i don't believe i have got personal with you at all. And keeping snakes in tubs and feeding weekly is un natural yes, but their is science behind every cage or tub you set up, so that the snake can thrive with its conditions met. Craigslist? I've already said that most of my babies would be sold off to wholesalers and pet shops, hell i even work in a shop now, and i ran my own business for many years before that, and before that worked in a different reptile shop, babies could easily be sold to them or through the shop, combine that with doing the UK shows, and the odd one sold to the general public, it is easy to shift the babies, general public through advertising can be a pain in the arse, so selling whole litters to shops is so much easier and less hassle. I do have a facebook site though, i mainly use it for pictures, i do have a website, but haven't gone on it in about 3 yrs, as most my sales i don't need to advertise for. You can continue to throw your toys out the pram and discredit me all you like, since i have no dealings with sales in the US, or the general public really, i wont be losing anything over it regardless. I am not the one advising someone to try something with admittedly no experience on the matter itself, i have given a safe, proven alternative.



@mkkee your the biggest jerk here!! and you have balls that's like grade school reptile. the first reptile almost any child gets is a ball because they are so freakin easy to take care of...so its easy for you to scoff at any ideas people have when they run into a wall with there animals. really aaron has 10 plus years of experience because in 2003 on this site he didn't have crap and was on here asking questions just like any other noob. a ball python all star does 3 clutches in 2011 count as that wow that would make me a rock star now wouldn't it!!

you people are jerks I was just passing on information and defending myself!! temps and husbandry are usually the issue but not always. vets don't offer much with gurge not much more then you guys have my bad for trying to pass on something that ive been told and researched (as far as getting opinions of a lot of people that I respect) I can see why everybody is leaving this place you guys have fun playing king of the castle in your sand box!!

You are the person that decided to get personal when questions were asked about it, if you hadn't kicked off and started attacking people, and just answered the questions regarding it, then the post could have been useful, but now it is lost in a load of drivel and one up man ship.

I am surprised by your attitude towards ball pythons though, and thinking they are so much easier than boas to look after, boas are a great starter reptile, they generally feed very well, males don't often get very large, and they are easy to keep, both balls and boas, both require adequate set ups that are easy enough to provide, i don't see how boas are any harder to look after than royals.

[lady_bug87]

I knew when posting the tip that I found I would be attacked! if you didn't notice I was completely positive about this crap until I was or anybody who uses this method is an idiot and killing their boas. Then when I go looking into whatever experience you people have suddenly Im the bad guy!!
@sandy, I don't plan too since their methods have been called foolish I have linked them to this thread and they simpley say there are a bunch of idiots here, moot point, why bother, who cares al valid points I see
@lady bug Im not attacking anybody to say yogurt works ive personally NEVER used it!! Im simply that people swear by it. Im attacking the fact that Im being shot down for what trying to help!? and Im being shot down by the people that hide in their little ssnakess corners
@nblade you swear that you've never had an issue with the lots of boas you have had, which is crap. you can slam a door to loud and a baby boa can chuck up their meal, its a survival instinct now that is scientific!! this wasn't a gamble on a living life this was if the vet has no answers and your snake is knocking on deaths door then lets try it advice although people I know use it before it even reaches that point snakes back to thriving without problems. Again I don't know this from personal experience so quit attacking me. I also stated that tube feeding will stress out an already stressed animal please say something I didn't already know!! im so tried of the scientific bullshit you guys keep throwing at me. nothing about keep snakes in a tub feeding them weekly ect ect is scientific it works and people do it bottom line you don't keep your snakes in labs. I know plenty of people over seas...full name to look up would be nice..web site...facebook must sell all those babies you make some where?? craigslist come on

@mkkee your the biggest jerk here!! and you have balls that's like grade school reptile. the first reptile almost any child gets is a ball because they are so freakin easy to take care of...so its easy for you to scoff at any ideas people have when they run into a wall with there animals. really aaron has 10 plus years of experience because in 2003 on this site he didn't have crap and was on here asking questions just like any other noob. a ball python all star does 3 clutches in 2011 count as that wow that would make me a rock star now wouldn't it!!

you people are jerks I was just passing on information and defending myself!! temps and husbandry are usually the issue but not always. vets don't offer much with gurge not much more then you guys have my bad for trying to pass on something that ive been told and researched (as far as getting opinions of a lot of people that I respect) I can see why everybody is leaving this place you guys have fun playing king of the castle in your sand box!!

.... I was just observing. I thought it was an interesting method and wondered if it were true reading this I'm not sure. I think by insinuating that ball pythons are easy to breed and easy to care for and therefore Aaron and mykee don't have a leg to stand on IS attacking them.

Though I can see why you would feel attacked on return. The thing is we DONT know who you asked so it makes it hard to believe without any other proof.

Im not a breeder or a big collector but I still enjoy the animals I have and wouldnt hurry to give them some thing I wasn't personally 100% comfortable with

I hope you can see where I'm coming from

[Aaron_S]

I knew when posting the tip that I found I would be attacked! if you didn't notice I was completely positive about this crap until I was or anybody who uses this method is an idiot and killing their boas. Then when I go looking into whatever experience you people have suddenly Im the bad guy!!

We never said they were killing their boas. Just that what they believe to be success probably isn't. Scientific fact has proven it.

You question experience, when answered, it's still not right. Just because you were shown wrong doesn't mean you need to discredit things continually.

@sandy, I don't plan too since their methods have been called foolish I have linked them to this thread and they simpley say there are a bunch of idiots here, moot point, why bother, who cares al valid points I see
So we're idiots because we question them further for more information? Only someone who has to hide something will shy away from questions. If they were so public and proven why don't they show themselves here to stand behind their words? Probably because they rather see you take their place.


@nblade you swear that you've never had an issue with the lots of boas you have had, which is crap. you can slam a door to loud and a baby boa can chuck up their meal, its a survival instinct now that is scientific!! this wasn't a gamble on a living life this was if the vet has no answers and your snake is knocking on deaths door then lets try it advice although people I know use it before it even reaches that point snakes back to thriving without problems. Again I don't know this from personal experience so quit attacking me. I also stated that tube feeding will stress out an already stressed animal please say something I didn't already know!! im so tried of the scientific bullshit you guys keep throwing at me. nothing about keep snakes in a tub feeding them weekly ect ect is scientific it works and people do it bottom line you don't keep your snakes in labs. I know plenty of people over seas...full name to look up would be nice..web site...facebook must sell all those babies you make some where?? craigslist come on

We keep going in circles with you. Are you just not able to comprehend what's been asked? We simply say that there is another reason these animals bounce back and it isn't really the yogurt.

Also, for someone who keeps chirping about reputation you sure are throwing stones while living in a glass house. Nobody except you, thinks you're a somebody. I have never heard your name tossed out on any of the American forums I go to. I will say though, none are boa specific so maybe that's the reason.

EDIT: Slamming doors causes regurges? What? That sounds silly. As I said, we'd buy entire litters of boas from someone who bred them and then we'd re-sell them at the shop or through the wholesale side of the business. I never had issues of regurge and these animals were generally kept in a very high traffic store with lots of noise and the like. Can't see how sensitive you're making it out to be.

@mkkee your the biggest jerk here!! and you have balls that's like grade school reptile. the first reptile almost any child gets is a ball because they are so freakin easy to take care of...so its easy for you to scoff at any ideas people have when they run into a wall with there animals. really aaron has 10 plus years of experience because in 2003 on this site he didn't have crap and was on here asking questions just like any other noob. a ball python all star does 3 clutches in 2011 count as that wow that would make me a rock star now wouldn't it!!

What's with the whole elitist route now? Come on, really? That's how you're play this? Somehow boas are some secret species that no one has figured out how to keep or breed yet. Come off your high horse. Do you hate Kathy Love because she bred cornsnakes? How about the Barkers since they're known for some of the easiest species to keep and breed.

I never stated I've been breeding for a million years. I've stated my experience in keeping them and other species. When I came out of college (what a novel idea, some education) I took up a larger collection. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do for your family.

you people are jerks I was just passing on information and defending myself!! temps and husbandry are usually the issue but not always. vets don't offer much with gurge not much more then you guys have my bad for trying to pass on something that ive been told and researched (as far as getting opinions of a lot of people that I respect) I can see why everybody is leaving this place you guys have fun playing king of the castle in your sand box!!

We now know your research is just asking other people. You obviously didn't go look for any papers on it or for anything we've been saying. You stick to your guns. I look forward to your personal litter information. Hopefully you won't be scared when we ask follow up questions.

[mykee]

I also own 23 boas Dumdum.

[Aaron_S]

I apologize for being an a**h*** I let things run away with me but I still stand by my thought that there might be something to the yogurt thing, and I need to not care how you all feel about it :D I tend to allow people opinions/words get me going too much when really it doesn't really matter. It just doesn't feel great when people are trying to make you out to be stupid person/or that your husbandry is not 100 And I still feel like Aaron is a bit challenging to everyone on here and now me , you were really nice when you were pming me pervy messages....

mykee Ive seen you around lurking else where on the net and I believe you have quite a bit of experience, still a bit of jerk :P I did find what you said funny but in the heat of the moment it just pissed me off more

Im just done with this, you do you and all do me I think Ill just stick to lurking here

lol you go against the science of what you believe in. Maybe you'll make a breakthrough.

I challenged you because you were wrong. Plain and simple. I've stated before I had no issue with you personally and then you decided to challenge my knowledge. Also, don't go making our private conversation out to be more than it is since it was about a topic in another thread.

[KORBIN5895]

lol you go against the science of what you believe in. Maybe you'll make a breakthrough.

I challenged you because you were wrong. Plain and simple. I've stated before I had no issue with you personally and then you decided to challenge my knowledge. Also, don't go making our private conversation out to be more than it is since it was about a topic in another thread.

Pervert.....

[nicolerae]

Hey everyone, I know this thread got way out of control but here is a quick update on how she is doing. She rejected her meal last sunday. Today we checked up on her and she had shed!!!! Shes lost a bit of weight 37g from 42g. After handling her she seemed aware and curious. Thought maybe we'd try feeding her. She took it! Just going to wait a couple days and see if she regurges. But yay! Food in her mouth is the first step right?

[marvelfreak]

Rainbow boas are not Boa Constrictors. Try posting in the Epicrates section next time.


^^^^The smartest thing said in this thread.
I am kind of shocked none of the Rainbow breeders on here ever responded to this. Rainbows tend to be much more sensitive to stress, food size and temps than Boa Constrictors. I have had mine regurgitated both when it cage temp got over 87 degrees in the summer and when it's heat pad went out and it drop down to around 72 in his cage. My guess your temps are off or it just over stressed.

@ OP do you use a temp gun to check your temps? If not i would get one you be amazed at what your temps really are compared to what a thermometer says.

[Ddub]

@ OP do you use a temp gun to check your temps? If not i would get one you be amazed at what your temps really are compared to what a thermometer says.


This is what I was getting at when I asked how the temps were being measured. Those heat pads can/will reach temperatures in excess of 100 degrees easily without a thermostat and a temp gun is needed to check and tweak the in cage temp/hot spot.

[nicolerae]

^^^^The smartest thing said in this thread.
I am kind of shocked none of the Rainbow breeders on here ever responded to this. Rainbows tend to be much more sensitive to stress, food size and temps than Boa Constrictors. I have had mine regurgitated both when it cage temp got over 87 degrees in the summer and when it's heat pad went out and it drop down to around 72 in his cage. My guess your temps are off or it just over stressed.

@ OP do you use a temp gun to check your temps? If not i would get one you be amazed at what your temps really are compared to what a thermometer says.


Yah I goofed on the thread loc. First one sorry guys :s

We have all our snakes in a single room now. Much easier to control temps. Shes doing much better.

[KORBIN5895]

Hey everyone, I know this thread got way out of control but here is a quick update on how she is doing. She rejected her meal last sunday. Today we checked up on her and she had shed!!!! Shes lost a bit of weight 37g from 42g. After handling her she seemed aware and curious. Thought maybe we'd try feeding her. She took it! Just going to wait a couple days and see if she regurges. But yay! Food in her mouth is the first step right?

Yoy at want to stop handling her altogether until she is eating regularly.

[NBLADE]

^^^^The smartest thing said in this thread.
I am kind of shocked none of the Rainbow breeders on here ever responded to this. Rainbows tend to be much more sensitive to stress, food size and temps than Boa Constrictors. I have had mine regurgitated both when it cage temp got over 87 degrees in the summer and when it's heat pad went out and it drop down to around 72 in his cage. My guess your temps are off or it just over stressed.

@ OP do you use a temp gun to check your temps? If not i would get one you be amazed at what your temps really are compared to what a thermometer says.


A few of us said it was likely down to stress of them being a shy species and incorrect temperatures and husbandry. As for food size, i've never had an issue feeding rainbows large meals or small meals, bcc yes, but rainbow boas can take decent sized meals with no issues, aslong as they are fed on a correct time scale.

[NBLADE]

Yah I goofed on the thread loc. First one sorry guys :s

We have all our snakes in a single room now. Much easier to control temps. Shes doing much better.

Glad she is doing better, and the temperatures are all sorted, but as mentioned you'll want to avoid handling really until she has had a few consecutive feeds and kept them down, this will help reduce stress so will help her get the weight back on she has lost.

[nicolerae]

Glad she is doing better, and the temperatures are all sorted, but as mentioned you'll want to avoid handling really until she has had a few consecutive feeds and kept them down, this will help reduce stress so will help her get the weight back on she has lost.

In the past three weeks shes been handled only once. And we wont be handling her at all this week. Our first priority is her health.

[NBLADE]

In the past three weeks shes been handled only once. And we wont be handling her at all this week. Our first priority is her health.

Well i hope she keeps it down for you and does well for you from now on then. Rainbow boas are very nice snakes, and can be a joy to keep. Good luck with her.

[nicolerae]

Well i hope she keeps it down for you and does well for you from now on then. Rainbow boas are very nice snakes, and can be a joy to keep. Good luck with her.

Thank you. Her personality is amazing, she'll be a great snake when she is better.

Ps. No regurge yet!!! One day down. :)

[nicolerae]

Got home to the horrid sight of a regurge. Vet in the near future.

[Aaron_S]

I hope that the vet actually finds something wrong internally because if not then it's just you.

[nicolerae]

I hope that the vet actually finds something wrong internally because if not then it's just you.

Quite the inconsiderate comment.

Regarldess, took her to the vet. She was dewormed and tube fed. Which she regurged. The vet said her environment is fine and wouldn't have caused the illness.

So Aaron_S, this underweight RESCUE we adopted and did everything we possibly can wont keep down liquid tube fed nutrients. I assure you, its nothing I've done. Why would I get a rescue and not put her in a proper environment, try to nuture her back with probiotic treatments and vet trips if I didn't care.

[nicolerae]

Further more,

How can you be so unsympathetic towards someone who shares the same interest in herps and is absolutely torn up about a snake who is ill. I've spent countless dollars, hours of research, gone to see breeders and vets, taken days of university to come home and focus on her and get information, meds, etc, and all the while unable to handle my gorgeous baby snake because she is so ill.

HOW DARE YOU SAY IT WAS SOMETHING I DID.

This is my last ever post on this forum because I am so disgusted at the attitudes of those who claim to be veterns but offer no sufficient help to those who have an actual need for decent advice as this thread so clearly shows. You do nothing but have a freaking bitch off of who knows more and who knows the best breeders. No one cares. I came on here for advice from experienced owners on how to deal with my issue, and got absolutely nothing from you.

I am so emotionally attached to each one of my animals that I cannot believe a true lover of herps would actually say that to another person who has the same interest, I cannot.

[Aaron_S]

That was funny.

Anyway, I said I HOPE the vet DOES find something because the only other idea would be because of you! I'm just eliminating the problems with logic. Eventually it comes down to something and there's two logical points.

Now because you're SO amazing at keeping them we'll play the game that it isn't your fault. It can't keep anything down apparently and may have internal parasites (which is so rare in captive bred animals I'd be surprised).

You love them ALL so much so why did you bring in a new animal within a month? You have NO idea what could be causing this regurge (because you can't be at fault) so what if it's contagious? You obviously don't have quarantine practices because of this thread you talk about handling.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/new-forum/98517-new-ssnakess-rainbow-boa-questions.html

Apparently it may be 2 months old or younger but now it's a rescue? I'm sure you're lying and just trying to make me feel bad but it won't work. In that first pic it sure looks like a healthy BRB and not a 2 month old with regurge problems. A snake doesn't just have issues like this unless it got something along the way. I would presume YOUR place since it was eating wherever you got it from originally since you brought it home on feeding day?

Lastly, if you read the thread, like actually read it, you'd see that probiotics DO NOT help reptiles and there is no "regaining" stomach acids. Way to go Ace!

[Aaron_S]

I thought of more information....

I don't see how a snake that hasn't eaten in roughly 4 - 5 weeks needs to be tube fed. You could EASILY be stressing this animal out FAR more than you think with all these probiotic treatments and tube feedings.

[KORBIN5895]

Quite the inconsiderate comment.

Regarldess, took her to the vet. She was dewormed and tube fed. Which she regurged. The vet said her environment is fine and wouldn't have caused the illness.

So Aaron_S, this underweight RESCUE we adopted and did everything we possibly can wont keep down liquid tube fed nutrients. I assure you, its nothing I've done. Why would I get a rescue and not put her in a proper environment, try to nuture her back with probiotic treatments and vet trips if I didn't care.

Did your vet even test for parasites?

[KORBIN5895]

Now let's get down to the brass tacks.

What are the temps? What is the humidity? How do you measure the temps? How do you heat the enclosure? What is it being housed in? How often are you in the room?

Lots of people "rescue" animals just to put them into sub standard living conditions. We see it all the time so don't get all uppity as there is obviously a problem. If it was me I would rather it be my husbandry than some unknown illness that could kill my whole collection.

[Bel5191]

It's interesting how some people take everything some stranger on the internet writes about them as some horrendous insult. Really people? This is the internet, deal with it.

[Aaron_S]

It's interesting how some people take everything some stranger on the internet writes about them as some horrendous insult. Really people? This is the internet, deal with it.

They probably shouldn't have been shown it to begin with.

[lady_bug87]

*points at signature *

[Jendee]

I still stand by probiotics in reptiles, I also still say most reptile vets are useless. Usually are dog/cat vets with a course of reptiles. you have to search long and hard to find one with a special interest in herpetology. Most keepers know more then just a course worth.Infact just recently had a boa to the vet where she asked fi she could test my male boa for ovum, and told me if he refused a meal he could die quickly. ??? seriously?? I almost walked out at that point lol I still also say that reptiles can regurge from other issues other then husbandry. and again also believe that continual regurge can be habit forming. At which point a solution other then checking temps is needed lol Nicole your welcome to pm me or find me on facebook to chat anytime

[NBLADE]

I still stand by probiotics in reptiles, I also still say most reptile vets are useless. Usually are dog/cat vets with a course of reptiles. you have to search long and hard to find one with a special interest in herpetology. Most keepers know more then just a course worth.Infact just recently had a boa to the vet where she asked fi she could test my male boa for ovum, and told me if he refused a meal he could die quickly. ??? seriously?? I almost walked out at that point lol I still also say that reptiles can regurge from other issues other then husbandry. and again also believe that continual regurge can be habit forming. At which point a solution other then checking temps is needed lol Nicole your welcome to pm me or find me on facebook to chat anytime

I still think you should try it yourself before advising it, as you yourself admit you have no experience trying it, and the wrong doses and wrong type could cause more issues than they "help".
The only reasons a snake would generally regurge, is husbandry, stress, a meal too large to digest quick enough before it starts to decompose and cause issues, or an underlying health issue like impaction, internal parasites etc. Habit forming i don't buy into, a healthy snake with no issues in the correct environment without any stress shouldn't continue to regurge just because it has done it a few times before.

I'd agree that most vets aren't that clued up with reptiles, the fact that this vet just wormed the snake without actually doing any fecal tests it seems, and the fact that they went straight to tube feeding nutrients which is extremely stressful as it is, but if there is an underlying issue forcing food into the snake isn't going to do anything other than encourage it to regurge that aswell, tells me they aren't the best reptile vets around.

[desipooh.12]

First off if you have a baby BRB the humidity can't be between
50-70 it has to be between 85-90 .. There
Baby's .. They need it the most .. I think
Its the temps .. More humidity

[desipooh.12]

Its always good to hear that you
Are doing whatever it takes for your snake !
Thumbs up,
Don't worry about what ppm say its the Internet,
Its going to happen.