View Full Version : cohabbing
bigbosky
02-24-13, 05:08 PM
this may be dumb question... I know its ok to put two ball pythons together.
But would it be bad to cohab a ball python and a carpet python?
Hannibalcanibal
02-24-13, 05:17 PM
Neither of those things are O.K. Keeping any snakes together unless breeding is a horrible idea, and will leave you with a pair of Dead/Stressed/cannibalistic snakes.
lady_bug87
02-24-13, 05:23 PM
Not a dumb question... but a terrible terrible terrible idea
KORBIN5895
02-24-13, 05:39 PM
Neither of those things are O.K. Keeping any snakes together unless breeding is a horrible idea, and will leave you with a pair of Dead/Stressed/cannibalistic snakes.
This statement is way too broad.
@op
It is not a good idea to cohab royals as they apparently rat each other.
As for the carpet and royal cohab I think their husbandry requirements are too different. That would be my main reason not to do it.
Terranaut
02-24-13, 06:08 PM
There is great debate about permenantly cohabitating mating pairs. The 2 I know a bit about are carpets and BCI's. Both of these have been very succesfully cohabitated as breading pairs for years with no ill affects whatsoever so yes "don't cohabitate snakes" is way to broad.
But I would think that unless you have 2-4 snakes (1 male only) in a massive viv and you have intent to breed and the snakes are the same breed and you have a backup enclosure and so on and so on...get my drift here? Cohabitating snakes with different husbandry is a death sentence for one of them. This is never a good idea. You definately need2 seperate enclosures.
I gave you the long winded answer because this is not a stupid question.
Neither of those things are O.K. Keeping any snakes together unless breeding is a horrible idea, and will leave you with a pair of Dead/Stressed/cannibalistic snakes.
That just isn't true for many species.
As for the origional question, carpets and royals have different requirements, so keeping them together for that reason alone will cause issues.
alessia55
02-25-13, 07:27 AM
Keep ball pythons together in one enclosure can be stressful, and has the possibility en ending in the death of one of them.
Ball pythons and carpet pythons have different husbandry needs, so housing them together wouldn't benefit either of them.
bigbosky
02-26-13, 07:05 AM
looks like consensus is no. thanks for the info guys!
Pareeeee
02-26-13, 08:42 AM
Two BP's together is a bad idea.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s67/Smugg_66/BP.jpg
Mark Taylor
02-26-13, 11:21 AM
Unless breading snakes should not be housed together.
KORBIN5895
02-26-13, 02:31 PM
Two BP's together is a bad idea.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s67/Smugg_66/BP.jpg
Hey look! It's the same picture...... again.
Unless breading snakes should not be housed together.
Sorry Mark but your statement is wrong.
poison123
02-28-13, 11:23 PM
Hey look! It's the same picture...... again.
My thoughs exactly lol.
Imo if done right snakes can be kept together. But this means all are well fed and have the option to move away from each other. Imo the best way to do this is with a naturalistic enclosure. However it is not recomended and its best if you have experience with that species of snake.
I dont cohab any of my snakes..everybody. just bc you can keep a better eye on things when they are seperate. I keep fed, shed, poorecords. How will you ever know whos drinking what, who regurged that if they are housed together. Plus for snakes youd have to seperate for feeding. And if one gets sick or sentencing the other one to get sick. Why risk it imo
I dont cohab any of my snakes..everybody. just bc you can keep a better eye on things when they are seperate. I keep fed, shed, poorecords. How will you ever know whos drinking what, who regurged that if they are housed together. Plus for snakes youd have to seperate for feeding. And if one gets sick or sentencing the other one to get sick. Why risk it imo
It is easy to know which snake has regurged when in with another, as that snake will no longer have a food bulge, or will normally show mild signs of dehyrdation. There is risks of course, and yes if one gets sick there is a chance the other one will catch it from it, but this can also happen when kept in seperate vivariums unless you strip off wash down and put on fresh clothes and have completely separate equipment for each individual snake. As for drinking, it is easy to see signs of dehyrdation if a snake is not getting the fluids it needs, and if you actually have experience with the species and know how they react normally, you can even see signs of stress or dominance and separate then if needs be.
I do agree that there will always be a risk when cohabiting. But then there is always a risk when putting 2 snakes together just to breed, yet no one really has an issue with that. Some snake species actually seem to do better in groups, rough green snakes, dice snakes etc, all seem more active, feed better and are more relaxed when they have the safety in numbers thing going for them. Some species i'd agree co habbing would be a bad idea with, cali kings for example, and king cobras, plus other snake eating species, if it is a natural part of the diet and they regularly eat other snakes, the risk is greater, but with a species that isn't commonly a snake eater, and when fed separately or atleast supervised at each end of the viv, then cohabiting can work fine.
It is better to not mix species though, although i have successfully kept burms and retics together in the past, and i know a keeper who has kept a blood python and retic together for the last 15 years, so some species that have the same husbandry requirements will work, but in most cases it is better to avoid mixed species.
I can understand peoples reasons for keeping snakes singly, and they are all good reasons, plus it is much easier on the keeper only having to deal with one snake in the viv, but in my experience cohabiting some species will work fine aswell.
It is easy to know which snake has regurged when in with another, as that snake will no longer have a food bulge, or will normally show mild signs of dehyrdation. There is risks of course, and yes if one gets sick there is a chance the other one will catch it from it, but this can also happen when kept in seperate vivariums unless you strip off wash down and put on fresh clothes and have completely separate equipment for each individual snake. As for drinking, it is easy to see signs of dehyrdation if a snake is not getting the fluids it needs, and if you actually have experience with the species and know how they react normally, you can even see signs of stress or dominance and separate then if needs be.
I do agree that there will always be a risk when cohabiting. But then there is always a risk when putting 2 snakes together just to breed, yet no one really has an issue with that. Some snake species actually seem to do better in groups, rough green snakes, dice snakes etc, all seem more active, feed better and are more relaxed when they have the safety in numbers thing going for them. Some species i'd agree co habbing would be a bad idea with, cali kings for example, and king cobras, plus other snake eating species, if it is a natural part of the diet and they regularly eat other snakes, the risk is greater, but with a species that isn't commonly a snake eater, and when fed separately or atleast supervised at each end of the viv, then cohabiting can work fine.
It is better to not mix species though, although i have successfully kept burms and retics together in the past, and i know a keeper who has kept a blood python and retic together for the last 15 years, so some species that have the same husbandry requirements will work, but in most cases it is better to avoid mixed species.
I can understand peoples reasons for keeping snakes singly, and they are all good reasons, plus it is much easier on the keeper only having to deal with one snake in the viv, but in my experience cohabiting some species will work fine aswell.
well most of my snakes don't have food bulge the day after, so a person who feeds carefully wouldn't be able to tell. and how can you compare a contagious snake sitting snuggled with another snake to the minuet possibility of hand transference?? and alot people who do cohab have animals as pets and aren't always very knowledgeable to see signs of things going wrong.(not all as you said a lot of colubrid people do house together) They show up as a new person on a forum and say "hey what's wrong with my snake?" when breeding they are watched daily..they aren't generally fed often and its only for 3 months at the most. Then they are separated and allowed to regroup. its not they are in there 365 days out of the yr together.
Idk just my opinion. I don't feel it should ever be done, why risk the "what ifs" with your animals....
Ha! Given the differing opinions here Bigbosky, you can tell it was definitely not a dumb question! However, I would definitely not recommend it for two different species.
In the past, Ive housed snakes of the same species together for years without issue, but now I equate it with something like feeding live rodents. Ive stopped doing it because, while I think the risk isnt substantial when housing members of the same species together, there is some risk I suppose. Similarly Ive stopped feeding live rodents. Its not like I think the risk is great, but why bother with the risk at all?
Having said that, I agree with some of the others that this is also very species dependent. It would definitely be a much higher risk with certain species like kingsnakes, than with most pythons or boas.
stephanbakir
03-01-13, 11:39 AM
Ha! Given the differing opinions here Bigbosky, you can tell it was definitely not a dumb question! However, I would definitely not recommend it for two different species.
In the past, Ive housed snakes of the same species together for years without issue, but now I equate it with something like feeding live rodents. Ive stopped doing it because, while I think the risk isnt substantial when housing members of the same species together, there is some risk I suppose. Similarly Ive stopped feeding live rodents. Its not like I think the risk is great, but why bother with the risk at all?
Having said that, I agree with some of the others that this is also very species dependent. It would definitely be a much higher risk with certain species like kingsnakes, than with most pythons or boas.
Well said Jarich :)
I'd also like to point out that even with species that tend to cohab well (Anoles for instance) you need much more space each time you add an animal, or there will likely be confrontation/stress. Different hotspots at different locations to keep fighting for the same spot at a minimum.
well most of my snakes don't have food bulge the day after, so a person who feeds carefully wouldn't be able to tell. and how can you compare a contagious snake sitting snuggled with another snake to the minuet possibility of hand transference?? and alot people who do cohab have animals as pets and aren't always very knowledgeable to see signs of things going wrong.(not all as you said a lot of colubrid people do house together) They show up as a new person on a forum and say "hey what's wrong with my snake?" when breeding they are watched daily..they aren't generally fed often and its only for 3 months at the most. Then they are separated and allowed to regroup. its not they are in there 365 days out of the yr together.
Idk just my opinion. I don't feel it should ever be done, why risk the "what ifs" with your animals....
You should still easily be able to tell if a snake has regurged with or without a feeder bulge, if you know how your animal looks when healthy, and how it looks after a regurge will be different, it wouldn't be hard to tell at all. And hand transferance is just as much as a risk as cohabiting, things like ri's can be spread from using the same feeding tongs, mites can be spread from handling, my point was just that choosing to handle one snake after another, and use the same equipment is also a risk, but you don't see people going to great lengths to stop that risk.
As for when breeding, it doesn't matter if they are watched or if it is 3 minutes or 3 months or 3 years, if one is sick or ill, then it has the chance of passing that on regardless of timing, and even watching the snakes doesn't matter, i don't know anyone who will sit and watch their locked snakes for up to 48hrs straight, it only takes a few minutes for one to grab the other and constrict and try and feed. So still a risk.
I do agree that it should be left to people with the experience to do so, and new comers to the hobby who can't read snakes behaviour yet would do better sticking to one snake per cage, and i'm not saying there is anything wrong with it at all. It is good practice to encourage it for new keepers. Just to condemn it outright isn't the way to go in my opinion.
As for why risk it, unless people are going well out of their way to eradicate all contact between the snakes, then illnesses and disease has very minimal more risk, especially if people are quarantining new animals anyway, and people risk pairing up snakes to breed them all the time, just as much risk pairing them then as there is keeping them together. I don't see it as a bigger risk to my animals personally.
Terranaut
03-01-13, 01:45 PM
I have great interest in this thread.
I have 2 breeding pairs of snakes. 1 pair of JCP's and 1 pair of BCI's.
Last year when I put the snakes together they were all easy going "friendly" snakes. After a few days together my boas both became defensive but my carpets never changed at all. After the season and after seperating them the boas never returned to normal. They kept their new attitude. Again my carpets are great. I have read up on cohabitating both species permenantly and may do so. I have huge enclosures so seperation would never be an issue. As far a disease goes I doubt this would be an issue seeing as they would get the same exposures in seperate vivs anyway. The only issue I see is feeding time but I do have spare enclosures to seperate them.
Again I would only do this to maximize my breeding potential. Same species , opposite sex.
Some of the biggest names and experts cohabitate for this reason.
I think there are risks but I don't think they are high enough to just say "never do it". I have also noticed there are only a couple of shots/stories of canabalism and I am pretty sure they are always either 2 males or different species.
Cohabitating to save space or money is maybe not a good plan but cohabitating breeding pairs I do not see as being a poor keeper.
The authors if The Complete Carpet Python keep breeding harems of 1 male to 3 females together all year. Considering how much faith I have in the information in their book I have to trust them on this as well.
I have to add how nice it is to read a discussion here and not a war. Refreshing indeed :)
You should still easily be able to tell if a snake has regurged with or without a feeder bulge, if you know how your animal looks when healthy, and how it looks after a regurge will be different, it wouldn't be hard to tell at all. And hand transferance is just as much as a risk as cohabiting, things like ri's can be spread from using the same feeding tongs, mites can be spread from handling, my point was just that choosing to handle one snake after another, and use the same equipment is also a risk, but you don't see people going to great lengths to stop that risk.
As for when breeding, it doesn't matter if they are watched or if it is 3 minutes or 3 months or 3 years, if one is sick or ill, then it has the chance of passing that on regardless of timing, and even watching the snakes doesn't matter, i don't know anyone who will sit and watch their locked snakes for up to 48hrs straight, it only takes a few minutes for one to grab the other and constrict and try and feed. So still a risk.
I do agree that it should be left to people with the experience to do so, and new comers to the hobby who can't read snakes behaviour yet would do better sticking to one snake per cage, and i'm not saying there is anything wrong with it at all. It is good practice to encourage it for new keepers. Just to condemn it outright isn't the way to go in my opinion.
As for why risk it, unless people are going well out of their way to eradicate all contact between the snakes, then illnesses and disease has very minimal more risk, especially if people are quarantining new animals anyway, and people risk pairing up snakes to breed them all the time, just as much risk pairing them then as there is keeping them together. I don't see it as a bigger risk to my animals personally.
Im talking about odds lol if your snake gets ri and is cohabing odds are the other one will get it...if your snake gets ri and in a rack..you can remove that boa from the rack and lesson your odds. Also your pretty freakin gross if you don't keep a high alcohol hand sanitizer stocked in your reptile room and use it often but Im a nurse maybe its built in me. Yes things can happen in breeding..Im gonna say probably more things can go wrong in breeding ( hem infection, female dominance) then in "3 months" of cohabbing. No I don't watch my animals 48 hrs a day. but I do check on them often and record behaviors, swellings, locks ect so I do watch them more then my non breeding living alone animals. but again back to the odds in 3 months there will be less of an opportunity for something to go wrong (stress wise, illness wise) from 12 months don't you think?? In my mind the only point to cohab (living together) is to save money on caging or to make more room for animals that you don't have caging for and that is plain irresponsible
Again just my opinion of cohabbing (people are allowed that and can do what they want at the end of the day) Im just 100% against it for most species of snakes.
Terranaut
03-01-13, 03:04 PM
I have seperate enclosures and would never attempt to cohab without vivs to move them to if I noticed anything strange. I also have a tub for everyone and buy a bew tub when I get a new animal. When I clean I do everyone at once and pull everyone out. They all spend a couple hours in their tubs. In short I have 2 housings for each snake and would suggest that if someone was just looking to save money they have the wrong mindset entirely and should reconsider.
Im talking about odds lol if your snake gets ri and is cohabing odds are the other one will get it...if your snake gets ri and in a rack..you can remove that boa from the rack and lesson your odds. Also your pretty freakin gross if you don't keep a high alcohol hand sanitizer stocked in your reptile room and use it often but Im a nurse maybe its built in me. Yes things can happen in breeding..Im gonna say probably more things can go wrong in breeding ( hem infection, female dominance) then in "3 months" of cohabbing. No I don't watch my animals 48 hrs a day. but I do check on them often and record behaviors, swellings, locks ect so I do watch them more then my non breeding living alone animals. but again back to the odds in 3 months there will be less of an opportunity for something to go wrong (stress wise, illness wise) from 12 months don't you think?? In my mind the only point to cohab (living together) is to save money on caging or to make more room for animals that you don't have caging for and that is plain irresponsible
Again just my opinion of cohabbing (people are allowed that and can do what they want at the end of the day) Im just 100% against it for most species of snakes.
Ah but the odds are still there that if you handle a snake with ri, you risk passing it on to any of your others, using alcohol gel or not, as a bit of mucas gets on your clothes and another snake runs through it, also just because snakes are cohabiting doesn't mean to say both will get ill when one does anyway, one snakes immune system could deal with it better and stop the issue.
I use a lot of hand gel between handling snakes, but i have OCD, and it is apart of that, but i know that wont stop the risk of spreading something, which is why i always deal with rescues last so as to not put my collection or breeders in any risk.
My point about time frames is 3 months or 12 months it doesn't matter, it will only take a minute for something to go wrong, i'll always agree that there is a risk when cohabiting any animal, but when you know what you are doing the risks are greatly reduced, there is also a risk taking on any animal in the first place.
I always here people say the only reason people co hab is to save space or get more animals etc, but with me, and with everyone else i know that does it, we always have spare vivs, and spare tubs anyway, so if there is any stress we can separate something, so it saves no space. The reason i do it is down to breeding a lot of the time, i find my lot breed better when together all year, they tend to go earlier in the season and the females don't freak out as much when the males are introduced as they are used to them, they also don't tend to go off their food as much as the ones i keep alone.
Royals i tend to keep alone as adults, as many are drop feeders, so the food gets left in with them and they take it over night, but with most other species i have no issues keeping them together.
Size differences, and sexes should always be taken into consideration though, 2 male retics in season can get a bit rough, i actually used this to my advantage the other week, with a young male retic who wasn't locking up, i put him in with another male, who tried to mate with him, which caused a few seconds of sparring, and then i removed him, as soon as he was back in with the girls he locked. I wouldn't be able to keep them together for long, as there would be stress, but that boils down to being able to separate if needs be, and also knowing how to read your snakes body language.
Don't get me wrong i have no issues with your opinion, and of course you are entitled to it, i just happen to disagree, but end of the day it is up to each individual keeper to decide what they think is best.
KORBIN5895
03-01-13, 04:38 PM
I had a yearling male boa that I cohabed with my two year old female. When I moved him to a bin he stopped eating. After two weeks I placed him in with her again and the next day he ate( in a separate feeding box). I sold him to my friend and he put him in his own enclosure at which point he refused food again. He missed four feedings. My buddy called me and I told him to try cohabiting him again. He fed three days after he placed them together.
I had a yearling male boa that I cohabed with my two year old female. When I moved him to a bin he stopped eating. After two weeks I placed him in with her again and the next day he ate( in a separate feeding box). I sold him to my friend and he put him in his own enclosure at which point he refused food again. He missed four feedings. My buddy called me and I told him to try cohabiting him again. He fed three days after he placed them together.
I cant even begin to wrap my brain around boas building "relationships" lol:crazy:
I cant even begin to wrap my brain around boas building "relationships" lol:crazy:
I wouldn't say it is a relationship thing, more of either, feeling safer with another snake there, or the competition side of it, with another snake right there if it doesn't feed quickly will miss out on the meal, so in some cases a bit of healthy competition can be a good thing for non feeding snakes, as its not real competition as we will ensure both get fed, but they don't know that lol.
KORBIN5895
03-01-13, 07:27 PM
I cant even begin to wrap my brain around boas building "relationships" lol:crazy:
I wouldn't call it a relationship. He actually was seldom by here.
shaunyboy
03-16-13, 03:01 PM
This statement is way too broad.
@op
It is not a good idea to cohab royals as they apparently rat each other.
As for the carpet and royal cohab I think their husbandry requirements are too different. That would be my main reason not to do it.
^^^^^
this mate
re carpets
i keep same sized females,same sized pairs,same sized pairs of hatchlings and same sized female hatchlings together
i seperate at feeding time
i also seperate pairs i do NOT wish to breed,during breeding season
i have only ever had one incident where.....
i put my male irian back into the tank after feeding and the female struck and held his tail in a feeding response...
he went into a crocodile like death roll at an incredable speed,i had to take the female off his tale,they were both ok after it and i still keep them together..
ive kept them together since 6 month old hatchlings,they are now coming up to 3 years old
cheers shaun
Terranaut
03-16-13, 03:30 PM
^^^^^
this mate
re carpets
i keep same sized females,same sized pairs,same sized pairs of hatchlings and same sized female hatchlings together
i seperate at feeding time
i also seperate pairs i do NOT wish to breed,during breeding season
i have only ever had one incident where.....
i put my male irian back into the tank after feeding and the female struck and held his tail in a feeding response...
he went into a crocodile like death roll at an incredable speed,i had to take the female off his tale,they were both ok after it and i still keep them together..
ive kept them together since 6 month old hatchlings,they are now coming up to 3 years old
cheers shaun
I love when people answer from experience and not just because they read it on the net. Thanks.
^^^^^
this mate
re carpets
i keep same sized females,same sized pairs,same sized pairs of hatchlings and same sized female hatchlings together
i seperate at feeding time
i also seperate pairs i do NOT wish to breed,during breeding season
i have only ever had one incident where.....
i put my male irian back into the tank after feeding and the female struck and held his tail in a feeding response...
he went into a crocodile like death roll at an incredable speed,i had to take the female off his tale,they were both ok after it and i still keep them together..
ive kept them together since 6 month old hatchlings,they are now coming up to 3 years old
cheers shaun
Thanks for the info shaun. What size enclosures do you keep your pairs in? I start my building soon.
Also, I am curious to know whether you feel there are any temperament differences you have observed from the snakes when housed together
shaunyboy
03-17-13, 09:45 AM
Thanks for the info shaun. What size enclosures do you keep your pairs in? I start my building soon.
Also, I am curious to know whether you feel there are any temperament differences you have observed from the snakes when housed together
i keep my carpets in 4x2x2ft tanks mate
my experience has been the carpets are placid with each other,and are usually either,both on the same spot,lying with each other,or they will be at different temperature gradients in the tank,one up a branch at the hot end,the other down on top or in a hide in the cool end,imo they look like they get along and imo don't cause each other stress,as all my carpets feed first attempt everytime
cheers shaun
vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.