Dead Upon Arrival?

[Jeepers]

We just got in our Cuvier's Dwarf Caiman and it was in a very small cloth bag that didn't really provide a lot of space to move, and it was pretty cold. When I removed it and opened the bag, it was kinda balled up and 'frozen', not literally frozen, in an awkward position...

Is it dead or is it just too cold? 'Cause I know that reptiles will just lock up if they're too cold. We thought we felt movement in the chest, but we aren't 100% sure. I've placed it under a heat lamp in hopes that it's just cold...

Any ideas?

[shaunyboy]

you will just have to wait and see if it perks up,once it gets a heat in it mate

fingers crossed its just very lathargic due to being cold

please let us know how it goes

all the best,shaun

[KORBIN5895]

Email and call the shipper asap. Also I wouldn't heat it up to fast as you will cause pain and possibly shock.

[Jeepers]

you will just have to wait and see if it perks up,once it gets a heat in it mate

fingers crossed its just very lathargic due to being cold

please let us know how it goes

all the best,shaun

Well the head was frozen like.. in an up position... like it was laying on its belly and had its head up... and after I ran it under mildly warm water for a minute or two, the neck muscles did untense and the head was just kinda limp, but wasn't frozen in place anymore.

If a reptile is severely lethargic due to temperature, how long, maximum, does it take for it to liven up a little? Enough for me to know it's ok?

[Lankyrob]

Take pics or video preferably of everything so that the seller cant argue that you killed it.

Hope it pulls through :)

[Jeepers]

Take pics or video preferably of everything so that the seller cant argue that you killed it.

Hope it pulls through :)

Yeah, I took a video of opening the package.

[Gungirl]

Can you post the video here so we can see?

Hope it warms up and is ok. I would also contact the seller asap.

[MoreliAddict]

Take pictures. Contact seller immediately.

[Jendee]

I think it sounds dead..You need to contact the seller/shipper immediately they may ask you for pictures, video any type of proof and for you to ship the animal back. I hope you bought from someone that has a live arrival guarantee

[shaunyboy]

the description you gave about the frozen head going limp after the warm water,makes me think its dead mate

ive seen very cold snakes lay still for 30 minutes to an hour before moving,but you can see them breathing during this time

it sounds like the shipper did not provide adequate heat for the journey

re shipping
imo its the seller/shippers responsibility,to make sure adequate heat and sufficiant packaging is provided,so the reptile has a safe healthy journey

imo it's also their responsibility to ensure the weathers not too cold for shipping

i'm sorry to hear about an animal losing it's life,due to inadequate transportation

cheers shaun

[Ms. Medusa]

If you haven't contacted the seller it is really important you do immediately as everyone has stated. Was there a heat pack in there even? It IS the shippers responsibility to be sure it was shipped correctly. Its horrible to receive an animal like that- I'm so sorry that you guys are going through this.

[ilovemypets1988]

over here in the uk, all animal transports are strictly monitored and checked, including, needing special licenses to do so.

the packaging's checked to see if they meet the requirements of the animals and if not, the seller is held accountable and is usually fined and/or sent to prison under an animals welfare act so i suggest you contact the seller and do alittle digging into your and the animals rights and see what laws have been broken and get them dealt with, you never know, it might have been a genuine mistake, not that theres any excuse for such behaviour.

sorry to hear about this and i wish you all the best and luck to get the issue resolved :D

[Jeepers]

I did, it was from Backwater Reptiles... I'm really hoping they got one left, because when I ordered this one they had two... and I've been looking forward to this all week, even got 2 hours of sleep all night 'cause I was busy putting together the tank, got feeder fish, some crayfish, highly expensive decorations... I've easily spent $500+ on the tank accommodations alone. It's mostly aquatic with a small mass of land on one side, and some of the decorations are tall enough to arch out of the water as sitting spots. Definitely hatchling size, more aquatic than terristial at this age.

So, yeah... I was really psyched... really hoping they still have one and heed my warning about needing extra heat packets to ensure a healthy arrival...

Edit: There was just one heat pack on the top of everything. Like, on top of the styrofoam peanuts... so it wasn't even touching the poor fella... and it was luke warm at best... I contacted them right after opening the package and realizing this, but I posted here, afterwards, to double check. 100% sure it's dead at this point, I see no signs of breathing and it's been under a lamp for over an hour, still limp and lifeless.

[Corey209]

I did, it was from Backwater Reptiles... I'm really hoping they got one left, because when I ordered this one they had two... and I've been looking forward to this all week, even got 2 hours of sleep all night 'cause I was busy putting together the tank, got feeder fish, some crayfish, highly expensive decorations... I've easily spent $500+ on the tank accommodations alone. It's mostly aquatic with a small mass of land on one side, and some of the decorations are tall enough to arch out of the water as sitting spots. Definitely hatchling size, more aquatic than terristial at this age.

So, yeah... I was really psyched... really hoping they still have one and heed my warning about needing extra heat packets to ensure a healthy arrival...

Edit: There was just one heat pack on the top of everything. Like, on top of the styrofoam peanuts... so it wasn't even touching the poor fella... and it was luke warm at best... I contacted them right after opening the package and realizing this, but I posted here, afterwards, to double check. 100% sure it's dead at this point, I see no signs of breathing and it's been under a lamp for over an hour, still limp and lifeless.


Back water is known for this from everything I've seen..

Good news
"When you buy a Caiman from us, you automatically receive our 100% live arrival guarantee."

http://i49.tinypic.com/9u9bb9.png

[Jeepers]

Back water is known for this from everything I've seen..

Good news
"When you buy a Caiman from us, you automatically receive our 100% live arrival guarantee."

Really?.. I've seen unboxings from them that went quite fine, though... well, I sent them another email saying that, if they do have another, to pleeeeaaase put in more than one heat pack -and- make notation on the box that it can't drop below room temp.

[Corey209]

Really?.. I've seen unboxings from them that went quite fine, though... well, I sent them another email saying that, if they do have another, to pleeeeaaase put in more than one heat pack -and- make notation on the box that it can't drop below room temp.

You can google them and find multiple people that receive their animals dead. When I first thought about buying a reptile online I was told by multiple people locally that they have a bad rep.

[Jeepers]

Here's the video:

8-SE8sxLvpk

[Jeepers]

You can google them and find multiple people that receive their animals dead. When I first thought about buying a reptile online I was told by multiple people locally that they have a bad rep.

Ohhh... hm... well, maybe if they listen to me, it'll be fine... but if not, I expect a full refund so I can buy one elsewhere.

[Corey209]

Ohhh... hm... well, maybe if they listen to me, it'll be fine... but if not, I expect a full refund so I can buy one elsewhere.

Seems like they would care more about their CB animals..

[Jeepers]

Seems like they would care more about their CB animals..

Yeah... I mean, sure, Florida is warm, but sending it up north means that outside temps aren't room temperature. It's not freezing temperature, but it's still not ideal for reptiles, and the mailing trucks out here aren't heated.

They really need to mark it as 'LIVE REPTILE' and 'TEMP CAN NOT DROP BELOW ROOM TEMP' ... I mean, how hard is that? and maybe add an extra pack or two?

Edit: There was no writing on the box that would have notified FedEx that it has special requirements.

[rmfsnakes32]

That's such a shame.

[Jeepers]

They contacted me back saying that our temps dropped to 32F last night, and the live arrival guarantee is only if temps are at or below 40F, but they're willing to do a replacement. Honestly, I think it should have been their job to check the weather drop at night, since most customers expect all accomodations to be made for a safe arrival.

[Falconeer999]

Well, in all fairness, it can be hard to check the weather along the entire path that a package goes, particularly since some carriers take weird routes depending on how busy certain hubs are. That coupled with the fact that not all weather forecasts are completely reliable... ordering/shipping weather sensitive reptiles in the middle of the winter may not be the most practical thing to do.

[Jeepers]

Well, in all fairness, it can be hard to check the weather along the entire path that a package goes, particularly since some carriers take weird routes depending on how busy certain hubs are. That coupled with the fact that not all weather forecasts are completely reliable... ordering/shipping weather sensitive reptiles in the middle of the winter may not be the most practical thing to do.

Yeah, we actually had some nice spring like weather recently, though. It was really nice but a cold front from canada strolled on in and screwed that up right fast... Ah well. They have one on hold for me until the weather gets a little bit better. I've checked the weather for the next 7 days, and all of them are too cold, so hopefully next next week or so... it sucks, 'cause I was really excited, but at least I'm still getting one, just gotta wait a little longer.

[aaron_cg]

Good to know they are going to do a replacement. Can't wait to see it! Can you post pictures of your set-up? This is another one of the animals I would love to get

[Ms. Medusa]

They contacted me back saying that our temps dropped to 32F last night, and the live arrival guarantee is only if temps are at or below 40F, but they're willing to do a replacement. Honestly, I think it should have been their job to check the weather drop at night, since most customers expect all accomodations to be made for a safe arrival.

While I don't disagree totally- when I am receiving I generally check as well to be sure. I would encourage you to learn where the hub is and the expected transport route in receiving so you can have a say and to also reassure yourself when ordering a new animal. Some sellers are ready to send way too quickly-- I insist on discussing temperatures before shipping.

For instance-- There was a recent heavy thunderstorm out of the hub city for Fed Ex that delayed my most recent delivery by 8 hours-- I had checked temperatures at all points and they were fine....I hadn't thought of checking for bad weather... I was one of the lucky ones since my area was having a warm spell and my little guy got here safe, sassy and ready to eat my face. Some other people I knew had huge issues with receiving damaged or dead animals.

[Jeepers]

Good to know they are going to do a replacement. Can't wait to see it! Can you post pictures of your set-up? This is another one of the animals I would love to get

I just did! I hope it's a good set up, because I saw many different types in my research, but my fella is a little hatchling that will be roughly 4 - 6 inches, so they're mostly aquatic at this phase. The tank I got him will last for quite a bit, but will probably need to be replaced as he grows larger. I'd say it'll hold him up until... maybe a foot or a bit more, but not too much. Possibly 2ft. maximum but after that is probably pressing it, at least, in my opinion. Very conflicting information on these guys, I believe they need some more research as far as the pet trade goes.

[aaron_cg]

Couldn't agree with you more. I was interested in getting one about a year or 2 ago and could not find much about them. Would be nice if there was more information.

[bcr229]

Can you ask that they wait a few weeks before shipping for temperatures to warm up a bit? We have a major winter storm moving through the middle of the country that's supposed to hit us in the mid-Atlantic tomorrow before clobbering the northeast over the weekend. I wouldn't ship any animal that required a warm environment to survive shipped into those conditions.

[Mark Taylor]

Can you ask that they wait a few weeks before shipping for temperatures to warm up a bit? We have a major winter storm moving through the middle of the country that's supposed to hit us in the mid-Atlantic tomorrow before clobbering the northeast over the weekend. I wouldn't ship any animal that required a warm environment to survive shipped into those conditions.

This^^^

Hope this one is OK when you get it.:bouncy:

[Jeepers]

Can you ask that they wait a few weeks before shipping for temperatures to warm up a bit? We have a major winter storm moving through the middle of the country that's supposed to hit us in the mid-Atlantic tomorrow before clobbering the northeast over the weekend. I wouldn't ship any animal that required a warm environment to survive shipped into those conditions.

Oh I did. I'll be checking the temperature after next Thursday, since none of the days between now and then will be suitable temperature wise.

As far as route, I was able to track specifically what centers it went through in the process of getting here, so I have all the cities and can check them to determine when will be the best possible night to ship it overnight. The biggest problem is it's overnight, and temperatures drop over night, sooo... a little inconvenient in that regard.

They said they'd hold one for me until the weather was permitting, though.

[Ms. Medusa]

Oh I did. I'll be checking the temperature after next Thursday, since none of the days between now and then will be suitable temperature wise.

As far as route, I was able to track specifically what centers it went through in the process of getting here, so I have all the cities and can check them to determine when will be the best possible night to ship it overnight. The biggest problem is it's overnight, and temperatures drop over night, sooo... a little inconvenient in that regard.

They said they'd hold one for me until the weather was permitting, though.

Sometimes it can be hard to find the right window-- but if you can save another wee caiman from dying....its what is important...

[rmfsnakes32]

At least they are willing to replace it not everywhere does that

[poison123]

I've heard so much bad things about backwater. This just adds to it. I would stay away from them. I wouldn't be surprised if the next one came dead as well. Sorry this happened to you btw.

[Jeepers]

Sometimes it can be hard to find the right window-- but if you can save another wee caiman from dying....its what is important...

I hear that. Such wonderful, interesting, and rare creatures deserve better care and respect than this... Hopefully this cold front will blow over in a week or two and the weather will be safe enough.

I've heard so much bad things about backwater. This just adds to it. I would stay away from them. I wouldn't be surprised if the next one came dead as well. Sorry this happened to you btw.

Yeah... though, I looked up packages on youtube, just to get an idea on what to be expecting(which all the others I saw had PERISHABLE in big red letters on it... mine was just a plain brown box with the shipping label) and I didn't find one that was DOA.

Anyways, I'm doing the best I can to make sure the replacement won't be... I'm disappointed enough this time around because I was SO excited... Was excited to pull out a little crocodilian, introduce it to its new home, and watch it snap down some fish, swim around, and just do its thing.

[Julius2314]

That is messed up :( how could anyone know what was in there? im sorry that happen :/

[KORBIN5895]

Yeah... I mean, sure, Florida is warm, but sending it up north means that outside temps aren't room temperature. It's not freezing temperature, but it's still not ideal for reptiles, and the mailing trucks out here aren't heated.

They really need to mark it as 'LIVE REPTILE' and 'TEMP CAN NOT DROP BELOW ROOM TEMP' ... I mean, how hard is that? and maybe add an extra pack or two?

Edit: There was no writing on the box that would have notified FedEx that it has special requirements.

All live reptiles have to be marked "live harmless reptile"
according to fedex policy. Failure to do so is a breach of contract.
They could get their shipping privileges revoked and they can stop it at whatever hub they like and refuse to let it leave.

I've heard so much bad things about backwater. This just adds to it. I would stay away from them. I wouldn't be surprised if the next one came dead as well. Sorry this happened to you btw.

They have terrible reviews.

I hear that. Such wonderful, interesting, and rare creatures deserve better care and respect than this... Hopefully this cold front will blow over in a week or two and the weather will be safe enough.



Yeah... though, I looked up packages on youtube, just to get an idea on what to be expecting(which all the others I saw had PERISHABLE in big red letters on it... mine was just a plain brown box with the shipping label) and I didn't find one that was DOA.

Anyways, I'm doing the best I can to make sure the replacement won't be... I'm disappointed enough this time around because I was SO excited... Was excited to pull out a little crocodilian, introduce it to its new home, and watch it snap down some fish, swim around, and just do its thing.

First off start using the " board of inquiry" to search out possible sellers not YouTube.

Also I am pretty sure backwater drop ships so that probably wasn't even from their warehouse.

[ilovemypets1988]

i have an idea for you, why dont you ask them to send it out, first thing in the morning, even if this means, it gets to you alittle late, the main thing is that im guessing day temps are generally warmer than night temps and in which case, it would be better for them to send temp sensitive animals out on a daytime delivery rather than over night. its worth asking if you havnt already :D

[Jeepers]

All live reptiles have to be marked "live harmless reptile"
according to fedex policy. Failure to do so is a breach of contract.
They could get their shipping privileges revoked and they can stop it at whatever hub they like and refuse to let it leave.



They have terrible reviews.



First off start using the " board of inquiry" to search out possible sellers not YouTube.

Also I am pretty sure backwater drop ships so that probably wasn't even from their warehouse.

Ah.. Yeah, I saw other packages marked that exact way, so I found it a little strange that mine had absolutely no indicator what-so-ever. Just the shipping label and a brown box. Their address and my address, no notes or anything.

Also, I said I looked at youtube of Backwater Reptiles unboxing videos, as in, people that ordered, and are unboxing their reptile. I was doing that to get a general idea of what I was to be expecting, if it was in a bag, a box, or what. I wasn't using it to find sellers.

[Jeepers]

i have an idea for you, why dont you ask them to send it out, first thing in the morning, even if this means, it gets to you alittle late, the main thing is that im guessing day temps are generally warmer than night temps and in which case, it would be better for them to send temp sensitive animals out on a daytime delivery rather than over night. its worth asking if you havnt already :D

I already suggested it because tomorrow's temps are going to be 54F, which would be fine so long as they pack a heat pack again... but they didn't even comment on that idea in their response, so I'm guessing it's overnight only... which, once again, I think is ridiculous because the coolest/coldest part of the day is at night. It'd just be easier and safer for it to ship during the day instead of the night.

I even said that, if FedEx won't bring it to my home at that time of day, when it arrives, I'd be more than happy to pick it up at my local office.

Edit: Just asked again to get a for sure answer. I explained tomorrow's temperatures will be 57F during the day, so it should be safe with a heat pack... it took, according to tracking, 12 hours for it to arrive to our local office from where it originated, so they could ship it out at 8am and I could pick it up when it arrives. I believe our office closes at 9 or 10pm.

[KORBIN5895]

I already suggested it because tomorrow's temps are going to be 54F, which would be fine so long as they pack a heat pack again... but they didn't even comment on that idea in their response, so I'm guessing it's overnight only... which, once again, I think is ridiculous because the coolest/coldest part of the day is at night. It'd just be easier and safer for it to ship during the day instead of the night.

I even said that, if FedEx won't bring it to my home at that time of day, when it arrives, I'd be more than happy to pick it up at my local office.

Edit: Just asked again to get a for sure answer. I explained tomorrow's temperatures will be 57F during the day, so it should be safe with a heat pack... it took, according to tracking, 12 hours for it to arrive to our local office from where it originated, so they could ship it out at 8am and I could pick it up when it arrives. I believe our office closes at 9 or 10pm.

Let me clarify what I meant by search out. I meant to research who you are purchasing from.

How far are you from backwater reptiles? All shipping companies move their freight overnight because they collect it during the day. Any same day courier will charge you out of the nose and would require the destination only be a couple of hours from the origin.

[marvelfreak]

Check out this site and search the names of whoever you may want to buy from and see what other say about them.
Board of Inquiry® - FaunaClassifieds (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=13)

[Jeepers]

Let me clarify what I meant by search out. I meant to research who you are purchasing from.

How far are you from backwater reptiles? All shipping companies move their freight overnight because they collect it during the day. Any same day courier will charge you out of the nose and would require the destination only be a couple of hours from the origin.

Ohhhh. I'm in KY, it's shipping from FL. They said no to shipping it during the day. Claims they only ship out at 5pm.

Edit: I found someone in NC with Cuvier's, so I'm asking them if they could help me, since they're closer and the shipping time, in my opinion, should be drastically less, so there's less room for error... I mean, from FL to KY is a long.. long way.

[Jeepers]

Has anyone dealt with Carolina Reptiles?

[Ms. Medusa]

Has anyone dealt with Carolina Reptiles?

I've seen them at a number of shows. I have never purchased from them, however they seem to be very knowledgeable and have good looking critters... I have not heard anything bad about them. I would check the BOI on them to be sure though.

Make sure you get your money back from Backwater, they may give you a hard time.

[Jeepers]

I've seen them at a number of shows. I have never purchased from them, however they seem to be very knowledgeable and have good looking critters... I have not heard anything bad about them. I would check the BOI on them to be sure though.

Make sure you get your money back from Backwater, they may give you a hard time.

I found them on the BOI and they have marvelous reviews, so I'm most definitely demanding a refund from Backwater and buying my Caiman from Carolina Reptiles. I feel like they won't screw up my order and kill my animal.

[infernalis]

Have you thought about asking them to ship another??

Mistakes happen, and a good business person would rather make it right than have their name dragged in the dirt.

[Jeepers]

Have you thought about asking them to ship another??

Mistakes happen, and a good business person would rather make it right than have their name dragged in the dirt.

They're willing to, but I've read SO many bad things about it, from DOAs to SEVERAL animals that have been shipped to customers that are either so ill they immediately had to go to the vet and were later euthanized to dying within days after arrival... I just don't want to risk paying that kind of money to get a sick animal, if it's alive. Many MANY people say Backwater is a drop-shipper, meaning they don't even know the condition of the animal they're sending, they don't even know what it looks like. In fact, I inspected the body, and my Caiman had chunks of flesh missing from its lower jaw. Prior to shipping, it had been injured... I just... do not.. want to have them screw up, yet again, and I'm the one to pay for their mistakes.

I'd rather deal with someone that has a shining record with their customers, like Carolina Reptiles, than someone that's a death camp, like Backwater.

I mean, one customer that received two Red Tail Racers, both that died within days, posted this picture of the animal's cloaca after unboxing it upon arrival...

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/225/securedownload7p.jpg
(source: Inquiry Backwater Reptiles - FaunaClassifieds (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318317) )

and this poster also said they've had extreme difficulty getting a refund on the second snake that passed, both of them passed within the 7 day guarantee.

[infernalis]

gotcha... I would not want any animals from them either.

[Jeepers]

gotcha... I would not want any animals from them either.

Yeah... after reading everything, I'm just really afraid that, even if it is alive, it may die in a matter of days... I don't want a sick, dying baby.. I want a healthy one, one that I can enjoy, and one that can enjoy the habitat I've worked so hard to make for it, 'cause working with a 125g tank is not easy...

And, if something goes wrong the second time around, I feel like they're going to give me the run around and I may end up paying the price for their poor ethics... It's just really something I don't think I want to go through, even if they are willing to help... It's bad enough they violated FedEx regulations by not putting ANY indications of what was in the box on the packaging. I just think that's really weird and really bad to ship a live, temperature delicate animal in a blank brown box with just a shipping label on it and nothing more.

[Jeepers]

Got my refund! Now to wait for it to hit back into my account and re-order from Carolina Reptiles!

[ilovemypets1988]

why dont you send the video to fedex`s head offuce so they can see the evidence of what they are shipping, you never know, they might help you aswell, and ending the contract with this blackwater place, would that really be a bad thing in all honesty, i mean if a place is that bad, why not help to destroy them the way they destroy peoples lives and the reptiles lives.

its totally upto you but personally its what i would do

[KORBIN5895]

why dont you send the video to fedex`s head offuce so they can see the evidence of what they are shipping, you never know, they might help you aswell, and ending the contract with this blackwater place, would that really be a bad thing in all honesty, i mean if a place is that bad, why not help to destroy them the way they destroy peoples lives and the reptiles lives.

its totally upto you but personally its what i would do

I highly doubt they have destroyed people's lives.

[ilovemypets1988]

I highly doubt they have destroyed people's lives.

if your expecting an animals and have spent thousands on 1 and it arrives dead or very unwell, then yeah it would destroy them and they would feel very down, and if its there first animal/pet that this happens to, then there faith within the reptile trade will be somewhat destroyed so yes it would and could destroy there lives.

some people save for years to get a much loved animal and instead of buying there house or a car they buy the animal instead, so yes it can destroy lives!

[KORBIN5895]

if your expecting an animals and have spent thousands on 1 and it arrives dead or very unwell, then yeah it would destroy them and they would feel very down, and if its there first animal/pet that this happens to, then there faith within the reptile trade will be somewhat destroyed so yes it would and could destroy there lives.

some people save for years to get a much loved animal and instead of buying there house or a car they buy the animal instead, so yes it can destroy lives!

No. I'm sorry but your are way over exaggerating. If you have saved for years and not purchased a house because of it, I would assume you would research who you are purchasing from. Please stop making asinine comments.

[Jeepers]

Hey hey hey. I've seen you two bump-heads in other threads. Stop it. I'm not having that in mine. If you two are going to argue again, take it to PMs.

[Herpophiliac972]

Is the area you are in particularly cold? It could have died while sitting outside possibly, in which case the guarantee should still be in effect. If the temps around you are cold enough to kill it, then ask the seller to mark the box so that it is held at the post office. That way it will not sit outside in the cold, and it will not be exposed to the temps in the truck on the way to your house (mail trucks are not climate controlled). Good luck, and I am sorry for the loss.

[Jeepers]

Is the area you are in particularly cold? It could have died while sitting outside possibly, in which case the guarantee should still be in effect. If the temps around you are cold enough to kill it, then ask the seller to mark the box so that it is held at the post office. That way it will not sit outside in the cold, and it will not be exposed to the temps in the truck on the way to your house (mail trucks are not climate controlled). Good luck, and I am sorry for the loss.

It doesn't sit outside, they require a signature, so it came immediately to me when they arrived at the property.

At any rate, it is chilly but I think this is a bad on both ends, since I didn't think about it(I trust that a company would, you know, ensure the safe arrival of an animal they got money for...) and the company didn't check, themselves, yet mention it first thing AFTER I mention it arrived dead(go figure, but, I'm happy 'cause they didn't put up a fight and were pleasant about the whole thing).

They refuse to even send it until warmer temps, at least 40F+. I'd said send it with 2 - 3 heat packs, to be safe, and let me personally pick it up at the office, but they wouldn't acknowledge the additional heat packs.

That's ok, though. I'm getting my money back and ordering from someone more reputable.

[Jeepers]

Let's see. She made defamatory and libelous comments about a company on a public forum that has rules against such things.

Also maybe you missed the prehensile tail thread that went ot? Off topic is a tragedy or a ban worthy offence.

As for the additional heat packs that can also have the same affects as no heat: death. Too many heat packs would cause the box to overheat and bake your animal.

Heat packs are designed to give off a certain amount of heat for a certain amount of time. Therefore too many will cause the temperature of the box to raise to a fatal level. So there is an explanation you can take to the bank.

I'm all for calling people out for their lying, foolish comments and bad ethics but make sure you know what you are talking about when you do call them out.

I made comments about how they shipped me a -dead- animal. I have every right to say that's not the best for their company to be shipping dead animals, and even others have remarked how this is a common phenomenon for this company.

Also, I've been watching you and it seems as if you have a rather nasty habit of lashing out at people in a way that is very ill received. I mean, you waltzed into my thread to call out Korbin. Please, take your negativity elsewhere.