Sorry folks..another question-killing feeders

[jwsporty]

What are the best methods to kill the feeders

Drowning?

Suffocation?

Whacking over the head?

Any pros and cons to each. or other methods?

Drowning seems to me would be the best..but that is only my opinion


Jim

[Pythonian]

drowning..in my opinion one of the worst deaths u can experiance, suffocation .. same thing.. wacking overthe head.. it's quick .. painless and when it's down it's done.. thats just my take on the situation..

Mike

[Dom]

Put yourself in the rodents shoes...

Whats the best way of dying .. drowning or suffacation or the freezer are by far the worst .. cevical snapping or smashing the brain is the best painless method for the rodent but not the funnest for us.. I use cervicalsnapping and smashig the brain (I do both in case..)

[Edwin]

Whacking over the head works best for me. If you want, you could get a bucket and a canister of CO2 and put the rodents to 'sleep'.

[vanderkm]

A sharp blow to the head, breaking the neck or using CO2 gas are the accepted humane ways of killing feeders. There are some posts over the last couple months that show a CO2 set up and give instructions on how to kill rodents of various ages. If you need more details, I can provide them - just let me know.

mary v.

[unknownclown]

Im kinda new at this whole thing but since the "food" hasn't ticked me off yet I plan on using just a plain ole mouse/rat trap to do the dirty work for me. Now if my prozak perscription ever gets cancelled or they tick me off some how I will have no prob pinning them down and pulling thier tail to separate thier spines. o> Ugh I hate mice!

[Dom]

Unknowclown .. I hope your kiding about using the mouse trap on em right? Those simply incapacitate them but does not kill em .. I hope this was a joke.

I think if you would of seen a mouse get trapped and suffer in a mouse trap you would of never said that...

As much as their snake food .. they have all rights to die painlessly.

[Dino]

Maybe I am blind but I tried to find pictures of a Co2 setup in this forum without luck.

Mary or anyone else for that matter could you set me up with some pictures or a link to a do it yourself site.

Thanks in advance
Dino

P.S. I am with Dom I hope your kidding about the mouse trap!

[vanderkm]

I don't know how to link to a previous thread on this forum, but this was a picture of Dawn's CO2 set up that she posted mid December.

If you use the search button at the top of the page (right under the Ssnakes logo) and search by user name Cas, you will pull up the posting. She doesn't have many details on the construction, but you can get some idea of how it was set up and I am sure if you e-mail her directly she can provide more details on stuff like flow rates.

mary v.

[Linds]

Originally posted by jwsporty
What are the best methods to kill the feeders

Drowning?

Probably one of the most inhumane methods you will find. Have you ever almsot drowned? It's pretty scary! It's longest panic of your life. Seconds feel like minutes, and since it takes as many as 4-5 minutes for a mouse to drown... think how long that panic is gonna last?

Suffocation?

Pretty well same as drowning.

Whacking over the head?

This can be both good and bad. If you can off the animal in a single blow (instantly), then this is great. Animal won't feel a thing. There are several whacking methods that can be used, such as whacking the animal off a sharp edge, or putting it in a pillowcase and hitting it off the floor/wall (make sure its concrete for anything larger than a mouse, rats will crack/chip/dent drywall and plaster). I prefer the pillowcase method, less mess and you can use more force (and also not get yourself injured).

or other methods?

CO2 is an approved humane method of killing feeders. It can be acheived with either dry ice or with a cannister. This and whacking are the only humane ones IMHO. Some people don't have the balls to go through with killing the animal first so they just freeze them to death - and some people actually think that this is humane and that their system slows down and they fall asleep first. Now this is probably the worst of them all, rats can live over 24h in a freezer :eek: It's a slow, painful death. Blood begins to crystallize and so forth. No good at all. Another one that is commonly used and accepted is cervical dislocation. I don't buy into it though, I jsut think of superman :eek:


Hope this helped :)

[unknownclown]

well.. um... like I said Im new at this, and yes I meant that only because I thought it would snap thier neck fast. Ok so Im an idiot :( feel free to laugh at me if ya want Im just glad ya caught that and said something cause I realy was under the impression that it was a quick death.

Um now I guess you can see why I joined the forum.... which would be to get some insight, advice and knowledge.

Ill just sit back, shut up and listen now.

[Cas]

Did someone mention my CO₂ setup? :)

<img width="515" height="388" src="http://image.photoloft.com/opx-bin/OpxFIDISA.dll?s=cano&src=/PhotoLoft/Asset20/2002/12/14/10221/10221181_0_0909.fpx,0,0,1,1,515,388,FFFFFF">

I use a flowrate that replaces approximately 20% of the chamber volume per minute - I also precharge the chamber before adding rodents, turn the gas off after about 45 seconds to a minute, and then leave the mice in there for another minute or so. For pinkies I leave the gas on for 2 or 3 minutes, and then leave them in the chamber for at least 15 minutes(usually longer - although if you take them out after 10 minutes or so and put them directly in the freezer, I don't think they ever actually regain consciousness).

Setup is pretty simple - attach regulator to tank, attach one end of hose to regulator and the other end to the chamber (a juice jug is convienient because the tap pops off easily, leaving a nice hole for near the bottom for the hose). The hose at the top of the chamber is just to allow the air to escape while letting the heavier CO₂ stay in the bottom of the chamber - it also allows me to turn of the CO₂ flow and not lose any from the chamber (since it's not going to flow up the tube at the top on its own). Figure out your chamber volume and what to turn your regulator to to get a 20% replacement per minute (can't help much on that one - I let my engineer b/f figure that one out *L*), and you're all set.
Oh, for attaching the hoses, I used a variety of lab quality fittings that were just laying around (we have weird stuff just laying around!) - but I believe places like home depot and such would have any fittings you might need.



Oh, also, here's a link to the American Veterinary Medical Association's recommendations for euthanasia: http://iacuc.cwru.edu/resources/euthanasia.pdf (the tables at the bottom are a good summary)

Dawn

[jwsporty]

All your opinions are valued...sounds like CO2 is the way to go...thanks again


Jim

[Dino]

Hey thanks alot Cas & Mary.

Sooner or later I would like to get a set up like that.
Great job Cas:)
Has anyone seen how to set one up with a paintball Co2 cartridge. Is it possible to put a regulator on one of those tanks? Cas I read in your other thread that it cost you $200 to set up. Is that with a rental Tank?

Oh and Linds, Dry Ice? Do tell!

Thanks Again
Dino

[Linds]

M1) Put a mug of hot water in a container, drop dry ice in mug and add rodents. Close lid tightly.

There's another method I've heard of people using, but am not familiar with it. Dry ice is a hard find out this way, I just use the ol' pillowcase off concrete method ;)

[Dino]

awww I see. I am not sure how hard it would be find dry ice around here, but I am going to take a look.

Thanks Again Linds you are always very helpful ;)

[tai_pan1]

Dom,

I'm relatively new to breeding and killing mice, but I have used the mouse trap method and it works very effectively. I've only used it on hoppers so far. I hold the hopper by the hind quarters with one hand and hold the metal bar of the mouse trap with the other hand. I then move the hopper near the trap and they grab onto the wood of the trap with their front legs and stretch out their necks. It just so happens that this places their neck right where the bar comes down. I release the bar and in less than a blink of the eye, the mouse is dead. No fuss, no muss, and very quick. I've only done it a dozen times, but have yet to have a mouse suffer due to not breaking their neck. Seems more humane than smacking them on against a wall.

Just my thoughts.

Mike

[unknownclown]

Phew ok so I wasnt completely wrong in thinking down those lines.
Thanks Tai pan1 :)

See I would love a CO2 setup since one of my favorite hobbies is growing carnivorous plants but the thing is they are so darn expensive at least the setups that I have seen anyway and since Im a single broke mother I cant afford that luxury quite yet. and a 50 cent mouse trap looks much better than a $200 death chamber.

[Lisa]

Cas how much did it cost you to build that gas chamber?

[Linds]

Glad to help :) Good luck with your dry ice mission. Often times it can be found at grocery stores in the meat/fish department, and at meat packers....lol.....just not in teeny weeny little towns I guess :rolleyes:

[Cas]

All told, my set-up cost me around $200 - that's not including the cost of hoses and fittings, since I had those already (would probably be around $15 or so to buy home depot type equivalents).

The tank rental AND the fill cost about $80 - I shouldn't have to get it filled again for a very long time though (20 lbs tank), so I'll just have to pay about $30 a year for rental (it's difficult to buy these kinds of tanks outright in a lot of places).

The regulator by itself also cost about $80 - and that was cheaper than I expected.

The jug was from a thrift store, and was $5.


It IS expensive, but eventually it does pay for itself... especially if your options are CO₂ or frozen from the petstore (whacking is just too hands on for me).


(btw - dairy companies may also have dry ice you can buy - they use it for transporting ice cream. Keep in mind, dry ice is much colder than most freezers (like, -78 degrees C), and will sublimate (turn to gas) in your freezer - not really fast, but you can't stock up, say, a month's worth in advance. So you have to keep in mind how convinient it is for you to get dry ice whenever you need it)

Dawn

[Dom]

Linds .. cerivcal dislocation .. I just think of superman?? I don't get the corrolation?

[Zoe]

I walk them against a desk or table. They die right away and it isn't messy :]

Zoe

[marisa]

sing CO2 cartridges for paint ball guns be a bit cheaper than a tank? I mean the tank obviously is the #1 choice but for smaller breeders who are killing maybe 10-15 mice at a time I have heard that using the paintball ones which are really cheap, work well. But the set up is slightly different.

Marisa

[Linds]

Dom,
Do you remember years back when Christopher Reeves (I think that's his name - he played Superman in the movies) snapped his neck? Sure didn't kill him, and I think that's an inherent risk with snapping rodent necks as well. I don't think you can be 100% that animal dies instantly when you snap their spinal cords - as with Superman, he just turned into a vegetable (now recovering to levels nobody anticipated).
This is why the only methods I will consider and promote as truly humane is whacking and gassing. If you smash the animals skull there is no guessing if it suffered, or if its brain is still alive and conscious - its killed instantly. Gassing as well, they are rendered unconscious before they are killed.

[vanderkm]

Dawn,
Thanks for posting your CO2 setup and instructions. I agree this is one of the best methods for killing prey and ideal if you don't want the hands on approach or are killing large numbers.

On Cervical dislocation -- while it is possible to perform cervical disloaction incorrectly and it is a method that requires some skill to perform, when it is done right the animal will never regain consciousness or live.

The bones of the spinal column high in the neck should be completely separated and the spinal cord in that area completely flattened with one swift, crushing blow. The result is virtually immediate unconsciousness from the force of the trauma (evidenced by non-responsive and dilated pupils of the eyes). If a person experienced damage this severe, they would require extensive medical support to regain consciousness and live.

IMO cervical dislocation is humane because it produces rapid unconsciousness with virtually immediate death. I don't think it takes more skill than whacking on the head and in my experience, it is more precise than the usual pillowcase method of whacking. I have thawed out rats killed in pillowcases that have broken ribs and forelimbs, but do not have any direct damage to the skull, and that leads me to believe that these animals did not die immediately. I prefer using a blunt object to strike the skull directly because it is precise, but it does require a more hand's on approach.

In any case, care and skill are required to kill prey humanely and I like knowing that the humaneness is of concern to the people on this list - even if we disagree on methods.

mary v.

[Lizzy001]

well there is one other way that no1 has said.....
and it is no hurt feelings for u..

buy the mice/rats!


Lizy xxx

[royal]

I own a paintball gun... I would think (havent actually checked it out) that you should be able to buy a 20 oz tank filled with co2 for about 35 canadian. Now for setting the tank up, I would think all you have to do is go to a good paintball store and buy a couple fittings, this should be cheaper then 200.

I will have a look at my paintball store and see if I can find out some info on fittings. As for the setup.... IMHO If you put the setup in your garage/outside/or on your deck, all you would need is 1-co2 bottle 2-regulator 3-plastic jar

Connect the reg to the bottle, then cut a small hole in the jar for the co2 discharge to fit in(probably silicon to seal), place jar and bottle on ground so bottle is laying on its side with the reg in the end of the jar, Lastly, cut a hole in the lid of the jar(1/4 inch).
Usage
Put your mouse in the jar(which isnt too much bigger then an adult mouse), screw on the lid and turn on your gas. When you feel that there is sufficient gas in the chamber plug your 1/4inch hole with tape(electrical,duct,or scotch) and turn off the gas.

**** I have not done this and do not endorse this in anyway***
P.S. Times for killing, and where you use your "chamber" should be considered carefully. Remember to let the gas out in a big area where there is lots of air.

[Dino]

I would love to hear what you find out Royal.

My only question was the whole regulator issue how and how much??? Like I said keep us posted. I would like to do something like that in the near future.

Thanks
Dino

[royal]

Well, I talked to my paintball store in edmonton(paintball action games) and they said the setup can be done.

What you need is
Co2 tank(20oz $50)
Regulator (cheapest one I seen was pure energy reg $80)
Bottle asa ( dont know why but was told I need it $15)
Vertical asa (same... $20)
Macro line kit (hoses and fittings-could find cheaper ones but $20)

So I was wrong on my thoughts, but I would suggest other people stop by a paintball shop and check it out.

[djnzlab]

Hi,
I feed frozen thawed, once the snake is used to it they can't catch parasites because the freezing kills al worms, protazoa, and larva. Not to mention flea/mites/lice.
so thaw them rats in the sink..
doug

ps that moist thawed rat has never bit anyone, Ive seen a few doa whack a rats wake from their sleep and kill the snake.
:w :w :(

[Lizzy001]

wow...great ideas guys!

[Dino]

Originally posted by royal
Well, I talked to my paintball store in edmonton(paintball action games) and they said the setup can be done.

What you need is
Co2 tank(20oz $50)
Regulator (cheapest one I seen was pure energy reg $80)
Bottle asa ( dont know why but was told I need it $15)
Vertical asa (same... $20)
Macro line kit (hoses and fittings-could find cheaper ones but $20)

So I was wrong on my thoughts, but I would suggest other people stop by a paintball shop and check it out.

Thanks Royal,

wow still 200 dollars eh! Maybe I will look around s/w Ontario and see what it would cost to set up.

Just for the heck of it!

Thanks Again
Dino