Oh my god

[dinosaurdammit]

So I got a job at a local rescue for reptiles and I was excited, a good friend of mine went with and we thought we'd have fun right! We were SO excited. Its a ways out and I drove there but when I got there I was a but disappointed but thought EH it will get better right? No. Oh my god guys I cried buckets for hours. I cried so much I just decided to go get the rest of my tat finished because my brain thought the pain would take my mind off of it. I emailed the phoenix rescue about it and they are working on it. Oh my god. Oh my god oh my god. So here is the email I sent to the phoenix herp rescue:


I arrived there and the smell was over whelming, I expected a somewhat better facility . No it was a guys trailer. And I have nothing agaisnt mobile homes but they do not have the space for animals inside. Instead no, they were outside, facing the sun. Here is how the following animals were kept.

The big torts were kept in filth and garbage so thick it made me gag and puke and just feel ill. The garbage rotted and left a thick pool of rotten "water?" The muck and mud under the garbage was over a foot thick. There was not enough room for the 4 to 5 torts roaming around in there, without bumbing into one another. The also had plastic and tiwistiy ties in their food, I saw one deficating with plastic in its feces.

Iggies were kept in a FILTHY no humidity no uvb set up, he says he keeps up to 30 to 40 at a time in there. The water is ice cold and I had to rescue one out. It is missing its bottom jaw. The restare grey colored and stuck shed from many many seasons. Garbage everywhere, it was over 300 pounds of filth I mucked out. Eggs strone everywhere, gargabe was in hammock. NO UVB. NONE. Few climbing devices. Most were too rickety for the larger ones to use. Some has ulcers on their skin from the dryness.


Carpet pythongs, kept like petstore beardies, No humidity, all were THIN and brown from lack of shedding. I was unable to get picures of them because he became suspicious. They were languishing in SAND and it was well above 100 degrees and NO humidity for them. They need help. They are emaciated and dehydrated.


Boas had facial deformations, a few were blind from MANY YEARS of stuck eye caps, they were blind. When asking him where the red tail went he didnt know his quote and I swear "Huh I have no clue where my red tail went he must have been the one that died" to my responce "why'd he die?" he repiled " ahhh sometimes it just happens". Also one of the females was so badly skinny I doubt she can be saved. If she has a chance, the thinnest one I would really Like her. The one with the stuck eyecaps needs vet cae asap. I was able to remove the shed from the nose so she could breathe. Ones face is messed up so bad I believe it affects her hoe she eats. She needs vet care ASAP- their waterdish was a cold 55 gallon rusty drum that they had to struggle to get out of, the thin one almost drowned.

Bearded dragon left outside with only one light, which isnt UVB, one climbing branch and nothing else.

Bull snake kept as above.

He keeps pack rats for food- pack rats have NO WATER and are huddled together in a corner scared to death shaking, there is no shelter or food seen for them.


Native tort kept in a plastic container with one airslit no water "just to get him some sun hahahaha". No. No NO NO. NO NO NO. I bet he leaves it like that every day sitting in the hot sun. It was trying to escape, you could see it in its eyes it wanted out.


Tegu kept in solid glas front case with no burrowing ability, humidity matching that of outside and NOTHING to escape the 140 inside. Yes, I measured with a temp gun. He says its a year old but its as small if not smaller than babies ive seen elsewhere. No water either. Tegu is also terribly afraid of anyone.



here are the pictures

Rotten veggies with plastic ties and metal ties, underneath is just sludge and filth and mold- no real room to move- the torts have ulcers on them and their bottoms are rotting (carapeice?) they also have breathing issues.
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii538/dinosaurdammit/DeathCamp/20130216_101221_zps4ebac2d5.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii538/dinosaurdammit/DeathCamp/20130216_101232_zps6328415f.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii538/dinosaurdammit/DeathCamp/20130216_101236_zpsc9fcaeb1.jpg

the iggies had the same filth but I mucked it out then had chantha take this pic- there is no uvb bulb, its over 110 in there, the water is ice cold, their skin is FU*#$*#$ED to hell and back and they all have ulcers- one is missing half its face and is so thin you see every bone in its body
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii538/dinosaurdammit/DeathCamp/20130216_111215_zps0cf2e1ae.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii538/dinosaurdammit/DeathCamp/20130216_111206_zpsbd05bcc3.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii538/dinosaurdammit/DeathCamp/20130216_111150_zpse074d133.jpg

smaller torts but same condition as larger ones, filth and much with NO water.
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii538/dinosaurdammit/DeathCamp/20130216_111301_zps224d2d31.jpg


Tegu, damn thing is a year old and the size of a hatchling, he feats it ground beef and eggs, and iguana eggs. Its 140 degrees in there, no uvb bulb, no burrow to escape, always scared, is emaciated and dehydrated not to mention suffering- no escape from the sun.
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii538/dinosaurdammit/DeathCamp/20130216_111251_zpsef4eb575.jpg


I have cried buckets and buckets, I am so upset I have no clue- its just awful- none have humidity. I am contacting everyone and doing everything I can on my end. PLEASE list advice. PLEASE. I just, ugh I just dont know.

its this place D&M's Reptile Rescue & Rehabilitation (http://www.dmreptilerescue.com/)

everything you see on their page is a LIE, they dont give them vet care. He says he uses orange grove animal hospital (http://www.svg-vets.com/), which is who helped try and save my snake. I know that has to be a lie. My dr wouldnt allow those animals to live like that. Please tell me who else I can call, this has to be fixed.

[infernalis]

go viral on facebook.

call every single government faction that will listen, animal control, PETA, call them all.

Don't give up.

Post this on every forum out there.

The tort forum would be a good place to post also.

tweet it on twitter, call your local TV news, send them an email with the pictures.

[BarelyBreathing]

Definitely get the word out.

[dinosaurdammit]

go viral on facebook.

call every single government faction that will listen, animal control, PETA, call them all.

Don't give up.

Post this on every forum out there.

The tort forum would be a good place to post also.

tweet it on twitter, call your local TV news, send them an email with the pictures.

ive called every animal control in 100 miles, im working hard to get things fixed, would you mind posting the tort forums you are recommending? Id love to post there as well.

Definitely get the word out.

Im trying every way i can even getting family envolved

[infernalis]

I am a member there too....

Tortoise Forum - An Online Community of Tortoise Experts - Tortoise Care, Tortoise Photos, Reptile Classifieds (http://www.tortoiseforum.org/)

[Mark Taylor]

I would also contact there sponsors.

[dinosaurdammit]

I am a member there too....

Tortoise Forum - An Online Community of Tortoise Experts - Tortoise Care, Tortoise Photos, Reptile Classifieds (http://www.tortoiseforum.org/)

i posted there, i apologize if i did or posted anything in the wrong space, would you get the word out? Id love the most advice i could get

I would also contact there sponsors.

In the process, im already exhausted, ugh its so hard but im plugging along.

[Mark Taylor]

I see how much you care for all things! But you will probably make your self ill doing it all by your self. So I have also posted on a few sites that I visit from time to time never know we might bump into each other.

Good look and keep us updated with replies etc

[DOBERMAN]

Hey, here's a thought.
while the conditions are tragic and inexcusable
Why don't you do the job you were hired for?....get back and start cleaning up and getting the conditions right. Be proactive.
Calling the authorities will only get these animals confiscated and subsequently either destroyed or placed in another substandard home.

[Mark Taylor]

She never said that she wouldn't did she?

[dinosaurdammit]

She never said that she wouldn't did she?

No I quit outright, i got there signed some paperwork, found out I would get paid only if he got enough money to do so. So ef that. and to doberman, how bout no. For once I am at an emotional point I could beat someone with a razor wire wrapped bat. So NO i will no go work for a man who makes me do all the hard labor while he laughs at my attempts with no gratitude and the conditions like they are. No. Just no.

[Mark Taylor]

No I quit outright, i got there signed some paperwork, found out I would get paid only if he got enough money to do so. So ef that. and to doberman, how bout no. For once I am at an emotional point I could beat someone with a razor wire wrapped bat. So NO i will no go work for a man who makes me do all the hard labor while he laughs at my attempts with no gratitude and the conditions like they are. No. Just no.

LOL.......... As I was typing that the little voice in my head was saying let all the animals out so they can kick his ***.

[DOBERMAN]

Right..... so you wanted to show up, have all the conditions perfect, pet the reptiles and get paid?
Look. obviously there is work to do there - for the sake of the animals welfare. In the time you spent taking pictures, crying, and getting your tattoo finished then going online to get somebody in trouble and to get other people (authorities) to handle the situation, making phone calls etc. contacting sponsors who may now revoke their support which may have been the only way of getting these animals fed..... you could have got those cages cleaned up, filled water bowls, and gave fresh food - that was your job right????
Its obvious the guy got behind in the duties, hence why he would have posted a job offer.
Sorry, this isn't the warm and fuzzy supportive post you were looking for. I'm old school and see the way things are going these days with the young crowd and their perspective on things. Nothings getting done because too many people are spending time trying to get other people to do things for them.

[Gungirl]

I have to say that I am upset that you walked out. I would have done the job I signed up for being paid or not. It is the animals that matter not your feelings. I would have taken photo's of the before and after as well as documented everything wrong that I could. After I was done doing my job, then I would see what I could do to ensure these animals wouldn't be put back into that situation. I could have never left the animals in that condition no matter what the reason was.

[dinosaurdammit]

Right..... so you wanted to show up, have all the conditions perfect, pet the reptiles and get paid?
Look. obviously there is work to do there - for the sake of the animals welfare. In the time you spent taking pictures, crying, and getting your tattoo finished then going online to get somebody in trouble and to get other people (authorities) to handle the situation, making phone calls etc. contacting sponsors who may now revoke their support which may have been the only way of getting these animals fed..... you could have got those cages cleaned up, filled water bowls, and gave fresh food - that was your job right????
Its obvious the guy got behind in the duties, hence why he would have posted a job offer.
Sorry, this isn't the warm and fuzzy supportive post you were looking for. I'm old school and see the way things are going these days with the young crowd and their perspective on things. Nothings getting done because too many people are spending time trying to get other people to do things for them.



No, he didnt get behind, he has NO EFIN clue how to house them or even take care of them, the phoenix herp society has gotten too many calls but with no pics they cant do crap. So you bugger off. Stop starting drama on me. I did what I thought was right so ef off.

[KORBIN5895]

Right..... so you wanted to show up, have all the conditions perfect, pet the reptiles and get paid?
Look. obviously there is work to do there - for the sake of the animals welfare. In the time you spent taking pictures, crying, and getting your tattoo finished then going online to get somebody in trouble and to get other people (authorities) to handle the situation, making phone calls etc. contacting sponsors who may now revoke their support which may have been the only way of getting these animals fed..... you could have got those cages cleaned up, filled water bowls, and gave fresh food - that was your job right????
Its obvious the guy got behind in the duties, hence why he would have posted a job offer.
Sorry, this isn't the warm and fuzzy supportive post you were looking for. I'm old school and see the way things are going these days with the young crowd and their perspective on things. Nothings getting done because too many people are spending time trying to get other people to do things for them.

Me and you have had a couple of rounds but I think you're spot on here.

Dino you had a prime opportunity to make a positive change but let two things get in the way: your emotions and money. Go back do what you can and make a difference. Keep fighting for what they need but you already had that opportunity in palm of your hands and you have seeemed to have thrown it away.

Also telling people to f*** off tends to get people banned around here.

[jarich]

Doberman, it sounds like you are projecting a problem you have with "young people" onto this situation, without it having any applicability. What you suggest isnt going to change the situation, and would just be a bandaid. Doing all that work for zero pay on somebody else's business is ludicrous. It would be one thing if it was your own, but for someone else's business? As if. What if someone came to you and said that your job was now a volunteer position. Would you still do it just because youre 'old school'? I highly doubt it. Its obvious the owner of this place hasnt done his job and should have his business shut down and shouldve been shut down ages ago. Those conditions are present because the owner of that business/'shelter' is too lazy to fix his own business.

To be honest, it sounds like the best thing for most of these animals would be to close the place down and euthanize them. At least they wouldnt have to continue suffering.

[Aaron_S]

Doberman, it sounds like you are projecting a problem you have with "young people" onto this situation, without it having any applicability. What you suggest isnt going to change the situation, and would just be a bandaid. Doing all that work for zero pay on somebody else's business is ludicrous. It would be one thing if it was your own, but for someone else's business? As if. What if someone came to you and said that your job was now a volunteer position. Would you still do it just because youre 'old school'? I highly doubt it. Its obvious the owner of this place hasnt done his job and should have his business shut down and shouldve been shut down ages ago. Those conditions are present because the owner of that business/'shelter' is too lazy to fix his own business.

To be honest, it sounds like the best thing for most of these animals would be to close the place down and euthanize them. At least they wouldnt have to continue suffering.


My question about all of what you said is, did she or did she not sign papers about working there? Is there no law about giving notice to a place you work at before quitting? Can someone not be taken to small claims court for the money owed if she did the work?

I get the tragic issues at hand. I find it funny that people worry about UVB when apparently they are in the sun all the time. That's what UVB is for. (Note I don't mean that they shouldn't have a covered, cooler area to go to though.)

[DeesBalls]

I know where I work and such, you can leave a job with no notice... so
Some states may be different.. I'm in Ohio.

[cgillis]

I work with reptiles here in Tucson and someone sent me this link through my facebook page. I would like to talk to the original poster about this situations and possible solutions that would not involve peta. Please email me through facebook.com/reptilecharlotte

[infernalis]

or just continue the discussion right here......

[TucsonRES]

I would contact PACC and Az Game & Fish. They should be able to point you in the right direction on who to contact to have those animals removed from their care.

[lady_bug87]

No, he didnt get behind, he has NO EFIN clue how to house them or even take care of them, the phoenix herp society has gotten too many calls but with no pics they cant do crap. So you bugger off. Stop starting drama on me. I did what I thought was right so ef off.

Hey, you may be upset but cool it. There is no need to be rude. If you have no issue with the way you handled the situation than there is no reason to act like a petulant teenager when someone disagrees.

[dinosaurdammit]

or just continue the discussion right here......

Actually I just had a phone conversation with her. Very nice woman who knows her stuff. I hopefully will be meeting her at 5 to further discuss maters and how to handle them.

[dinosaurdammit]

Ok so I am going to be talking to a local news outlet about how reptiles get a bad rap and how they are smart and do feel pain and do require the same humane treatment as the fluffy critters on earth.

So during my tv thing I want to know:
what are some common myths that NEED to be debunked
what are some things that are told that are just flat out wrong
what are toxic foods
anything else you guys feel people would benefit from hearing


things are getting done- heck yea seaking

[Aaron_S]

Snakes aren't slimey!

We don't all listen to heavy metal!

[Corey209]

We don't all listen to heavy metal!

Didn't know this was a myth about reptile keepers, I personally can't stand heavy metal :p

[alessia55]

Ok so I am going to be talking to a local news outlet about how reptiles get a bad rap and how they are smart and do feel pain and do require the same humane treatment as the fluffy critters on earth.

So during my tv thing I want to know:
what are some common myths that NEED to be debunked
what are some things that are told that are just flat out wrong
what are toxic foods
anything else you guys feel people would benefit from hearing


things are getting done- heck yea seaking

The most common myths/wrong info about snakes that I've been told/asked:

- Most snakes have fangs/most snake bites will hurt you severely (and/or
envenomate you and/or kill you)
- Snakes carry salmonella and will make you sick
- ALL pythons and boas grow to be HUGE and can/will eat you; basically most non-reptile people don't know that there are boas that stay really small (sand boas) and pythons that won't eat you (ball pythons, etc).

[Terranaut]

Snakes aren't slimey!

We don't all listen to heavy metal!

Hey wait. I love old metal :)

Back on topic. Without bashing or being ugly could you not have had more impact on the animals well being by staying and fixing it? Running away and telling everyone leaves all of these animals to rot until help arrives. You should have cleaned the pens and instructed the keeper on proper care. Then call the news. They obviously needed your help and just like their former owners you abandoned them and left them to suffer. Chairity aid is seldom pretty. You should go back and help.
I can imagine you were not expecting these responses but the truth is you could have been the hero those animals needed but you ran away. Next time fight for them. Do what needs to be done then complain and call everyone you can.
Sorry you had a hard lesson but this is common :(

[dinosaurdammit]

Hey wait. I love old metal :)

Back on topic. Without bashing or being ugly could you not have had more impact on the animals well being by staying and fixing it? Running away and telling everyone leaves all of these animals to rot until help arrives. You should have cleaned the pens and instructed the keeper on proper care. Then call the news. They obviously needed your help and just like their former owners you abandoned them and left them to suffer. Chairity aid is seldom pretty. You should go back and help.
I can imagine you were not expecting these responses but the truth is you could have been the hero those animals needed but you ran away. Next time fight for them. Do what needs to be done then complain and call everyone you can.
Sorry you had a hard lesson but this is common :(

have you seen my body condition? I cannot phyisically lift the weight asked of me to do. I tried to instruct but he kept telling me I was wrong. I WILL not go back, I cannot emotionally see animals like that and a man think its totally ok and I am wrong being berated for not knowing "my stuff".

i am getting another rescue involved into helping the animals. I cannot physically do the work. HALF A TON of garbage to be mucked out. The mold attacked my asthma and I am hightly allergic to pistachios and bananas and without an epipen im screwed. I am working with authorities to fix it. There is not a dang thing I personally can do to fix it. Why is everyone jumping on me to be the hero I cannot be? How bout you all go stop world hunger because thats about the same impossibility here for me anyway.

[Terranaut]

have you seen my body condition? I cannot phyisically lift the weight asked of me to do. I tried to instruct but he kept telling me I was wrong. I WILL not go back, I cannot emotionally see animals like that and a man think its totally ok and I am wrong being berated for not knowing "my stuff".

i am getting another rescue involved into helping the animals. I cannot physically do the work. HALF A TON of garbage to be mucked out. The mold attacked my asthma and I am hightly allergic to pistachios and bananas and without an epipen im screwed. I am working with authorities to fix it. There is not a dang thing I personally can do to fix it. Why is everyone jumping on me to be the hero I cannot be? How bout you all go stop world hunger because thats about the same impossibility here for me anyway.

Ok. Deep breath. Lets try this again.
After reading what you posted I guess you just bit off way more than you could chew BUT maybe if you are of fragile health you shouldn't be doing stuff like this at all? Again not to insult you. I know you always mean well but maybe assisting rescues is not for you. Truly rescued animals are rescued from something bad. If your part of a rescue you will see the worst and believe you just did. It sucks you found out the hard way but now you know what not to do considering your health.

[dinosaurdammit]

Ok. Deep breath. Lets try this again.
After reading what you posted I guess you just bit off way more than you could chew BUT maybe if you are of fragile health you shouldn't be doing stuff like this at all? Again not to insult you. I know you always mean well but maybe assisting rescues is not for you. Truly rescued animals are rescued from something bad. If your part of a rescue you will see the worst and believe you just did. It sucks you found out the hard way but now you know what not to do considering your health.

I weigh too less and the only thing hindering my ability to do hard labor is my inability to put on weight or muscle. I cannot get muscle tone. I can clean cages, not muck out half a ton of garbage. This shouldn't be part of a rescue. I imagined cleaning out poop not hundreds of pounds of waste some of it toxic like mold

[Aaron_S]

I think it's funny that you thought it was going to be simple stuff, like cleaning your own collection but just more.

This rescue is bad but what did you think you were going into? Sunshine and rainbows with every animal healing and well on it's way to recovery? No, a lot of animals are surrendered while on death's door to be left to the "rescuer" to deal with seeing a dying animal that can't be saved.

What did you think you were going to be in for when you decided to work there? I'm really curious because all the animals I ever see for rescuing are generally large. How will you go about carrying all the mulch bags, large food bags and if need be, the animals themselves if you can't lift more than some paper towel?

[dinosaurdammit]

I think it's funny that you thought it was going to be simple stuff, like cleaning your own collection but just more.

This rescue is bad but what did you think you were going into? Sunshine and rainbows with every animal healing and well on it's way to recovery? No, a lot of animals are surrendered while on death's door to be left to the "rescuer" to deal with seeing a dying animal that can't be saved.

What did you think you were going to be in for when you decided to work there? I'm really curious because all the animals I ever see for rescuing are generally large. How will you go about carrying all the mulch bags, large food bags and if need be, the animals themselves if you can't lift more than some paper towel?



basically what i am getting is "lol you dumb and weak as well as stupid- what did you expect?! Your are dumb" honestly this is how I feel. I realized there was stuff to muck out but half a ton of just garbage. ALL by my self while he sat on his butt laughing at me struggling to do the work. I dont understand the flack I am getting, if this is really how people on here are treated who try to do the right thing then maybe its just best I left.

[Falconeer999]

I don't get the unreasonableness in thinking that someplace that holds itself out as a "rescue" would be better cared for than the places the animals are coming from. It sounds like this place was just the opposite - the animals were going into a place with WORSE conditions than they were coming from. That is certainly not a reasonable expectation to have when dealing with a "rescue".

In other words, I don't get the jumping all over Dinosaur for thinking this would be hugely different than how it turned out to be.

[jarich]

I think you did right, DD. I think the place should be shut down and the animals euthanized or sent to other places where they will be cared for. It would be better for those animals to have been killed quickly rather than be brought to that dump to slowly die of torture.

DD, I believe you said in another post that you are leaving in two months, right? What do you guys think will happen IF she spent all her free time fixing these enclosures, for no pay, and getting these animals back to health? Do you think the guy will magically then just decide to keep them clean and cared for, or will they likely just fall back into tortuous conditions and die a slow death later after DD is gone again? That place is obviously a death trap for reptiles. Why would any of you defend it or suggest it is solely her responsibility to fix it herself simply because she saw it? Im guessing you all have animals suffering in your hometowns somewhere too; why havent you fixed all that yet?

She came here to rant because they were reptiles being tortured, and the likely place to gain some sense of the horror of that situation would be...oh, I dont know...maybe a reptile community. Rather than support her in shutting down the place, we pick at her for not singlehandedly changing someone else's business for no pay?! Ugh, gain some perspective.

[dinosaurdammit]

I think you did right, DD. I think the place should be shut down and the animals euthanized or sent to other places where they will be cared for. It would be better for those animals to have been killed quickly rather than be brought to that dump to slowly die of torture.

DD, I believe you said in another post that you are leaving in two months, right? What do you guys think will happen IF she spent all her free time fixing these enclosures, for no pay, and getting these animals back to health? Do you think the guy will magically then just decide to keep them clean and cared for, or will they likely just fall back into tortuous conditions and die a slow death later after DD is gone again? That place is obviously a death trap for reptiles. Why would any of you defend it or suggest it is solely her responsibility to fix it herself simply because she saw it? Im guessing you all have animals suffering in your hometowns somewhere too; why havent you fixed all that yet?

She came here to rant because they were reptiles being tortured, and the likely place to gain some sense of the horror of that situation would be...oh, I dont know...maybe a reptile community. Rather than support her in shutting down the place, we pick at her for not singlehandedly changing someone else's business for no pay?! Ugh, gain some perspective.

i feel as if i am treated such because unlike everyone else who seems to be gods, I contribute nothing of value, honestly I dont even know why I stick around,it usually turns into a flame fest on a number of people- not just me either and its not helping the animals. I am tired of coming in with a problem- or anyone else for that matter and having a new hole ripped. It makes me ponder why I even post. I contribute seemingly nothing of value to anyone so maybe thats why I get this sort of reaction. Who knows. I may just disable this account and move on. After all the 2398423894203894% of post of me leaving are going to be "nothing of value was lost lolol" and I dont want to be apart of that kind of comunity. I am sorry I am not an expert like the rest of you, I do what I can with what I can, with what I know and I am always trying to learn, with what I know and its just never enough. I will fail at every turn and always be flogged for it so its asking myself "whats the point".

[dinosaurdammit]

8CCds8-apSQ

[infernalis]

I don't understand the flak either, and it ends NOW.....

[Mark Taylor]

Good luck with shutting that place down.

There are a lot of places who will look after these animals properly and take them from that place they just need to hear it from someone and take a look.

[shaunyboy]

basically what i am getting is "lol you dumb and weak as well as stupid- what did you expect?! Your are dumb" honestly this is how I feel. I realized there was stuff to muck out but half a ton of just garbage. ALL by my self while he sat on his butt laughing at me struggling to do the work. I dont understand the flack I am getting, if this is really how people on here are treated who try to do the right thing then maybe its just best I left.

I don't get the unreasonableness in thinking that someplace that holds itself out as a "rescue" would be better cared for than the places the animals are coming from. It sounds like this place was just the opposite - the animals were going into a place with WORSE conditions than they were coming from. That is certainly not a reasonable expectation to have when dealing with a "rescue".

In other words, I don't get the jumping all over Dinosaur for thinking this would be hugely different than how it turned out to be.

I think you did right, DD. I think the place should be shut down and the animals euthanized or sent to other places where they will be cared for. It would be better for those animals to have been killed quickly rather than be brought to that dump to slowly die of torture.

DD, I believe you said in another post that you are leaving in two months, right? What do you guys think will happen IF she spent all her free time fixing these enclosures, for no pay, and getting these animals back to health? Do you think the guy will magically then just decide to keep them clean and cared for, or will they likely just fall back into tortuous conditions and die a slow death later after DD is gone again? That place is obviously a death trap for reptiles. Why would any of you defend it or suggest it is solely her responsibility to fix it herself simply because she saw it? Im guessing you all have animals suffering in your hometowns somewhere too; why havent you fixed all that yet?

She came here to rant because they were reptiles being tortured, and the likely place to gain some sense of the horror of that situation would be...oh, I dont know...maybe a reptile community. Rather than support her in shutting down the place, we pick at her for not singlehandedly changing someone else's business for no pay?! Ugh, gain some perspective.

i don't understand why your getting crap either pal

imo you did the right thing

re old school
i'm old school,but...

i don't believe in going into a rescue working your arse off,while the owner and guy in control of the money for the rescue,sits on his arse laughing about it all

the guy should not be in charge of the rescue...

imo your doing the correct thing in getting all those animals took off him,lets face it they won't be any worse off,than the crappy conditions this guys keeps them in

i would have done the exact same in your position...

its ludicrous to suggest otherwise

cheers shaun

[dinosaurdammit]

i don't understand why your getting crap either pal

imo you did the right thing

re old school
i'm old school,but...

i don't believe in going into a rescue working your arse off,while the owner and guy in control of the money for the rescue,sits on his arse laughing about it all

the guy should not be in charge of the rescue...

imo your doing the correct thing in getting all those animals took off him,lets face it they won't be any worse off,than the crappy conditions this guys keeps them in

i would have done the exact same in your position...

its ludicrous to suggest otherwise

cheers shaun

ive posted videos as far as I can getting the word out, i still fail to understand how me doing all the work is going to improve conditions for those animals :/ its a sad fact but i feel as this is the right thing to do.

[Mark Taylor]

The way I look at things is this..... If it was the right thing to do at the time then it was still the right thing to do, No regrets in life. " What's done is done."

[SnakeyJay]

ive posted videos as far as I can getting the word out, i still fail to understand how me doing all the work is going to improve conditions for those animals :/ its a sad fact but i feel as this is the right thing to do.

Link to the videos?

[dinosaurdammit]

Link to the videos?

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/general-discussion/98253-oh-my-god-3.html#post818732

[SnakeyJay]

As sorry, didnt watch that as there was no explanation of what it was.

[TucsonRES]

I don't understand the flack being directed towards the author. The conditions were deplorable. This "rescue and rehabilitation" center is nothing more than a horrible place looking to profit from animals.
I checked there website and found the following:
Welcome to D & M's Reptile Rescue And Rehabilitation web site! We are dedicated to rescuing unwanted and mistreated reptiles in Tucson Arizona and surrounding areas. Any donations or adoption fees we receive are used solely for caring for our rescues; food, vet care and housing.
The adoption fee ranges from $50.00 to $300.00, depending on which animal you choose.
In their surrender contract they require a $100.00 fee
If the original keeper wants to regain their former animal they must also pay a $95.00 fee plus vet, medicine and supplement fees.
That doesn't sound like a rescue to me. Also, there is no sponsorship required to have a shelter. Anyone can call themselves a rescue. This group is not a non-profit or mention any type of business entity.
While I can appreciate the sentiment that the author stayed and tried to help make conditions better, the photos showed that the conditions didn't get that way over night or even in a couple of days and it wouldn't have improved greatly in a few hours.
Another point I want you to think about is, if you reply to a job offer and the person in charge states that you'll get paid if they get money..... I would have walked away at that point and so would a lot of you. Now if it was posted for a volunteer position, that would be different.
The author did try to get some cleaning and mucking done. Everyone has a different tolerance level for what they can stand. Also, did state that they have health issues as well. That should be considered before casting stones....

[Corey209]

8CCds8-apSQ

I support leaving the place if the owner isn't going to change his ways but if no one in the area will help you out then you do need to ruin their reputation completely so everyone will know not to come to them.

[dinosaurdammit]

» Audio - Herp Nation Media (http://www.herpnation.com/category/audio/)

i just did an interview and idk when it will be up,

pacc has gotten involved now

I have gotten contacts from everywhere, I woke up this morning to my video going viral in the herp community. Things are getting done and i for once in a long time feel HAPPY.

I have been in touch with orange grove and they are on board with helping

i have gotten ACT involved

Many herp communities on facebook.


My god, i did something

[infernalis]

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/happy.gif

[Lankyrob]

Well done, lets hope all the animals find good homes. :)

[Mark Taylor]

Absolutely fantastic news job well done.

[infernalis]

go post an update at the tort forum...

Torts in need of help PLEASE read - Tortoise Forum - Tortoise Husbandry Community (http://www.tortoiseforum.org/post-621359.html)

[jarich]

Well done DD! Thank you for not giving up. Lets hope some can be saved.

[Zoo Nanny]

Congratulations and I commend you for your perseverance in a situation that most would just walk away from.

[infernalis]

Tenacity pays in the end..

[Tracy33]

Oh well done DD , that is fantastic news . I am so happy for you , but of course the animals . Well done girl !!!

[TucsonRES]

*********Update for original posting from todays' events***************
DD's story and video has now been posted on USARK, ARC and a few other FB posts and other Rep forums and forwarded to local news outlets. DD also had a radio interview earlier today.
The owner of the place in question finally responded to one of us after PACC (our County Animal Care Center) inspected their location. Several violations were noted and the owner did get a time limit to correct conditions and seek vet care for those needing it before a follow up inspection. No animals were removed to our knowledge though.
In his response, he stated that this was the 2nd time authorities were called on him in his 12 years, that he would accept our (other rescues) help in re-homing the animals he currently has. He did not state that he would not accept other animals in the future.
Now while his response sounds encouraging, he is NOT changing his re-homing fees, as of yet. He is currently asking $700 for each adult Sulcata Tort and $300 each for some of his snakes.

[dinosaurdammit]

*********Update for original posting from todays' events***************
DD's story and video has now been posted on USARK, ARC and a few other FB posts and other Rep forums and forwarded to local news outlets. DD also had a radio interview earlier today.
The owner of the place in question finally responded to one of us after PACC (our County Animal Care Center) inspected their location. Several violations were noted and the owner did get a time limit to correct conditions and seek vet care for those needing it before a follow up inspection. No animals were removed to our knowledge though.
In his response, he stated that this was the 2nd time authorities were called on him in his 12 years, that he would accept our (other rescues) help in re-homing the animals he currently has. He did not state that he would not accept other animals in the future.
Now while his response sounds encouraging, he is NOT changing his re-homing fees, as of yet. He is currently asking $700 for each adult Sulcata Tort and $300 each for some of his snakes.

Why is he going to charge so much for each animal the jungle carpet pythons army ACAP on believe the boys are in the same position is going to cost twice as much to fix them is it going to cost to "adopt" them out

[dinosaurdammit]

Why is he going to charge so much for each animal the jungle carpet pythons army ACAP on believe the boys are in the same position is going to cost twice as much to fix them is it going to cost to "adopt" them out

This is what I get for using the auto type voice thing.


What that garble is suppose to say: why charge so much for the animals its going to cost twice that on each one. All the animas are in bad shape. Its going to cost buckets for the fixes for them. Why doesn't he just surrender them to phoenix?

[Corey209]

This is what I get for using the auto type voice thing.


What that garble is suppose to say: why charge so much for the animals its going to cost twice that on each one. All the animas are in bad shape. Its going to cost buckets for the fixes for them. Why doesn't he just surrender them to phoenix?

I'm assuming he originally started up a rescue so that he could them but took on more then he could handle. I doubt he just wants to surrender what he still looks at as money.

[infernalis]

what money? with crazy adoption fees, those animals are doomed to stay until dead.

I think by looking at the pictures, that their health is deteriorating, making their "value" as an adoption dwindle with each passing day.

[Corey209]

what money? with crazy adoption fees, those animals are doomed to stay until dead.

I think by looking at the pictures, that their health is deteriorating, making their "value" as an adoption dwindle with each passing day.

I doubt he realizes this.

[infernalis]

I doubt he realizes this.

I think he does......

hi my name is david I run d&m,s reptile rescue, the day this person came out to volunteer her time to help clean and feed the reptiles, was a day when we clean all the cages on saturdays. we do not pay anyone to help us clean and feed.I do all this rescue work out of my own pocket, no grant money or large donations given too us.yes the torts cage was dirty it was cleaning day what do you expect when they walk all over there food If people have aproblem with us please let us know about it so it can be fixed. we have been doing this for 12 years here in the tucson,marana area this is the second time the person went to the authorities instead of us first so the problem could be fixedIf you want to talk to me call me at 520-256-7747

[rmfsnakes32]

In my opinion sounds like the guy has an animal hoarding issue!

[dinosaurdammit]

In my opinion sounds like the guy has an animal hoarding issue!

he says he has had up to 30-40 iggies in that one cage. When he has multiple iggys this happens "they have to fight for food sometimes it gets violent, you just have to let them assert themselves". :I iggies in the wild can run away. Ive never seen iggies get that vicious at one another before. Everything he said was off, from how many he houses in one space to the actual husbandry. Its not the first or second time hes been reported, its just the second time the law has come out and said something, phoenix herp rescue said they get 15 calls a year about this place, people see it and RUN.

[ilovemypets1988]

for all those who snapped at the OP about leaving, well not only wouldve i had left there and then, but i wouldve probably shot alot of those animals to end there misery (and i dont care who thinks im cruel, i wouldve so get over it).

also you guys saying you wouldve stayed to try and make a change.............no you would not have, simply because, you need money to feed yourself, no money = no food for you or your families so cut the crap and get off your high horse!

back to the OP, congrats on making a difference and in reality, no 1 blames you for leaving (well no one that matters anyway), its actually a nice change to see someone more dedicated to animals than themselves, you may not be the bulkiest person but by what youve done for the animals over the past few days/weeks would make you the strongest person here.

you have made an example of what happens when animals requirements are not met correctly and i hope that others like him will see this and will change there ways, you are in affect those animals hero, so hold your head up high and be very proud of yourself :D

[KORBIN5895]

for all those who snapped at the OP about leaving, well not only wouldve i had left there and then, but i wouldve probably shot alot of those animals to end there misery (and i dont care who thinks im cruel, i wouldve so get over it).

also you guys saying you wouldve stayed to try and make a change.............no you would not have, simply because, you need money to feed yourself, no money = no food for you or your families so cut the crap and get off your high horse!

back to the OP, congrats on making a difference and in reality, no 1 blames you for leaving (well no one that matters anyway), its actually a nice change to see someone more dedicated to animals than themselves, you may not be the bulkiest person but by what youve done for the animals over the past few days/weeks would make you the strongest person here.

you have made an example of what happens when animals requirements are not met correctly and i hope that others like him will see this and will change there ways, you are in affect those animals hero, so hold your head up high and be very proud of yourself :D


Maybe I missed it bit could you please point out where someone snapped at her?

Secondly we wouldn't think you were cruel. We would think you're ignorant and foolish.

Ignorant to say we wouldn't help out for.free because I have helped out many people for free. I also took care of the herps for free at my local chain pet store for quite awhile. I couldn't let their ignorance kill all of their herps. Also I recommend your read the boi thread. She went there to volunteer and somehow it turned into work because she was going to get paid with a snake or something like that.

Now you are also foolish. You live in the UK so I highly doubt you have a gun to actually shoot them with and if you did you guys have harsher destruction of property laws than you do homicide laws.

Use your head not your heart when you post.

[DOBERMAN]

I didn't know flak was a direct synonym for constructive criticism Wayne.
I don't agree with the way this was handled for many different reasons. I am not saying DD is a bad person. But there are different ways to get things done. Some involve hands on effort. If the OP has her own animals, and it sounds like she has a few, and can feed, and clean her own cages then she could have done the exact same thing with the rescue animals- it would have just taken a bit longer. No one said the 1/2 ton of debris had to be moved in one day. And if DD has the physical problems she describes there was no way she should have applied for a hands on job that requires labour. I don't buy the excuses. And come on.... the owner sitting there laughing at her while she did the work? A dramatic and most likely inaccurate assumption. I suppose I should be banned for having an alternate view?

These comments aren't meant to attack the OP. It's meant to address an issue that involves many situations of the same sort relating to reptile rescues in general.

[dinosaurdammit]

I didn't know flak was a direct synonym for constructive criticism Wayne.
I don't agree with the way this was handled for many different reasons. I am not saying DD is a bad person. But there are different ways to get things done. Some involve hands on effort. If the OP has her own animals, and it sounds like she has a few, and can feed, and clean her own cages then she could have done the exact same thing with the rescue animals- it would have just taken a bit longer. No one said the 1/2 ton of debris had to be moved in one day. And if DD has the physical problems she describes there was no way she should have applied for a hands on job that requires labour. I don't buy the excuses. And come on.... the owner sitting there laughing at her while she did the work? A dramatic and most likely inaccurate assumption. I suppose I should be banned for having an alternate view?

These comments aren't meant to attack the OP. It's meant to address an issue that involves many situations of the same sort relating to reptile rescues in general.

You havnt read anything have you? Nothing on fauna or oh idk everywhere. There was no excuse for the conditions. You sound like you want to argue so you can piss on something and hold your head high

[jarich]

I didn't know flak was a direct synonym for constructive criticism Wayne.
I don't agree with the way this was handled for many different reasons. I am not saying DD is a bad person. But there are different ways to get things done. Some involve hands on effort. If the OP has her own animals, and it sounds like she has a few, and can feed, and clean her own cages then she could have done the exact same thing with the rescue animals- it would have just taken a bit longer. No one said the 1/2 ton of debris had to be moved in one day. And if DD has the physical problems she describes there was no way she should have applied for a hands on job that requires labour. I don't buy the excuses. And come on.... the owner sitting there laughing at her while she did the work? A dramatic and most likely inaccurate assumption. I suppose I should be banned for having an alternate view?

These comments aren't meant to attack the OP. It's meant to address an issue that involves many situations of the same sort relating to reptile rescues in general.

I'd go a step further Doberman and say your comments werent constructive criticism or flak, but more like the ramblings of one of the old guys from an episode of Scooby Doo. "And I wouldve gotten away with it too, if it werent for you meddling kids!" Take your bilious 'alternate view' to a community where it makes more sense, like a retirement home in Florida. You can sit around all day with people who want to spout nonsense about how "kids these days just dont have a good work ethic..." and the 'fact' that you walked uphill both ways in ten feet of snow for school everyday when you were a kid and never complained once. However lets be clear, what you said not only holds no truth in this instance and is in no way helpful to any animal rescue, it has no place in a community of people who are concerned about the wellbeing of reptiles and those who are. Lets see if I cant explain it better for the couple of you who dont seem to have understood the situation on your own.

This guy who owns the "rescue" (an ironic use of the word, at best) is a lazy piece of garbage. He has had a business for years trying to make money off these animals he gets for free. People do this all the time here in NYC. They take unwanted reptiles for free and then sell them to others for a profit. He obviously doesnt care for them at all or they wouldve never been in the conditions they are in at present. He is slowly torturing these animals and has been doing this to other animals for years. HE is the one responsible for their care, and yet has obviously done nothing to improve their situation, even after repeatedly being told by the authorities that the conditions are nothing short of torture. As you said, it isnt outside the realm of possibility to say that one person could care for all these animals. There arent that many that a single individual working a few hours a day wouldnt be able to handle. He just obviously doesnt want to. He knows better, because he has been instructed numerous times to change the conditions or they will shut him down and take his animals. So instead of doing the work himself, he puts out an ad trying to find a sucker. Someone who will work for free to do what he could and should be doing but just doesnt bother to do. Someone else who cares enough about animals to do this for him, because he very obviously doesnt. Now in this particular case, even if DD had been Mother Theresa and spent hours a day, everyday, working for free to fix this guy's place, then when she moved away in a few months what exactly do you think would have become of these reptiles and their situation? Do you think that this guy would magically then just start taking care of these animals on his own? Or do we have every reason to believe he wouldve just let them languish in squalor again until he gets another write up by an authority who threatens to take away his animals.

So how about instead of taking the side of this guy who owns the place and tortures animals, making all kinds of assumptions about why he doesnt take care of them himself, and coming up with some nonsense about 'kids nowadays not having a work ethic', you do what you are supposed to in a community. You support the members of that community in a constructive way. You understand that your snarky comments have an effect on people in a negative way, and that negativity actually hinders a community and its ability to bring positive change in the lives of other reptiles rather than helping it. You understand that you made assumptions about a situation based on your preconceived notions and that led you to respond in a way that was not well received by the other members, and rightly so. So by all means, feel free not to respond to this. Feel free to bite your tongue and keep your bile where it belongs. As this community has shown in this thread, your further opinion on this matter is neither needed nor desired.

[Herpophiliac972]

That is freaking unbelievable. You do not have to be a herpetologist to see that that is a completely unacceptable way of caring for the animals. How the heck are they supposed to be rehabilitated? He looks like he is doing exactly the opposite. Raise all kinds of h311 with animal control, and especially P.E.T.A. They would love to get in on this. Talk with the local veterenarian. See if you can get him up there. Also, contact the A.S.P.C.A. animal cruelty tipline.

[Terranaut]

A group like peta would use this to show that we all must care for our animals like this and thus nobody should be allowed to keep them.
I think the op made a judgement error in getting involved in something her health would never allow her to do . Then not only is it more work than she could ever handle(even at a good rescue)but this turns out to be a nightmare deathscue. Calling in the troops is great but I can't help but wonder about bad press towards reptile owners in general. What else were you gonna do though right?

[dinosaurdammit]

A group like peta would use this to show that we all must care for our animals like this and thus nobody should be allowed to keep them.
I think the op made a judgement error in getting involved in something her health would never allow her to do . Then not only is it more work than she could ever handle(even at a good rescue)but this turns out to be a nightmare deathscue. Calling in the troops is great but I can't help but wonder about bad press towards reptile owners in general. What else were you gonna do though right?

I highly support our community policing itself, in this event, it failed to do so. I hate peta, they kill animals and then blame others for doing it. Its wrong and they are a terrorist organization. I never knew it would be a health problem, it wasnt apparent to me it was going to be that labor intensive, it was more labor than required if they just took the proper methods of cleaning daily, this was months of garbage and problems. If not years. It shouldnt have been like this, if run correctly I fail to see how it would take more than an hour a day of work for the animal there. theres not that many

6? boas
4 JCP
1 tegu
4 large torts
4? small ones
4? iguanas

all the snakes have been deprived of food(or are infected with parasites)/humidity and proper environment, he has them all in one cage. When talking with others they too cannot understand how it got this far behind. If you dont have the time dont have the animals.

[ilovemypets1988]

A group like peta would use this to show that we all must care for our animals like this and thus nobody should be allowed to keep them.
I think the op made a judgement error in getting involved in something her health would never allow her to do . Then not only is it more work than she could ever handle(even at a good rescue)but this turns out to be a nightmare deathscue. Calling in the troops is great but I can't help but wonder about bad press towards reptile owners in general. What else were you gonna do though right?

i dunno, i suppose you could start a web feed on how normal reptile keepers keep there animals and show how rewarding it can be if done correctly, i know some people who do shows at schools with there animals to educate, maybe its time someone does a tv show on the lives of these sorts of people who care enough to want to educate and show how incredible these animals actually are :D

[Jeepers]

That is freaking unbelievable. You do not have to be a herpetologist to see that that is a completely unacceptable way of caring for the animals. How the heck are they supposed to be rehabilitated? He looks like he is doing exactly the opposite. Raise all kinds of h311 with animal control, and especially P.E.T.A. They would love to get in on this. Talk with the local veterenarian. See if you can get him up there. Also, contact the A.S.P.C.A. animal cruelty tipline.

PETA, I would not support, personally... I'm not going to slander them here, but feel free to do your research regarding the truth. I've also heard some things floating about ASPCA, but I haven't researched into it, so whether it's valid or not, I don't know. I do still think they should be informed.

Veterinarians, fellow Herps, Animal Control, the Game Warden, etc. I say Game Warden because I know that, here anyways, they do deal with some animal affairs as far as ownership goes(around here they'll deal with illegal ownership of Quakers parrots if they're notified).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, I don't want to get involved in this due to certain 'aspects' of this.. mess... but I do agree that DD did the right thing. Also, I don't think there's anything wrong with possibly being over optimistic and chewing off more than you could chew in regards to helping animals. It's the thought that counts, and whatever you -do- do helps, even in the tiniest bit.

Additionally, her expectations weren't too far off. When you think 'rescue', what do you think? A place that's in absolute MISERABLE shape, as far as hygiene goes, I'm not even talking about the health or condition of the animals, as this is to be expected, but the ENVIRONMENT. When you think rescue, do you think of an environment that has been left to shambles for an extended period of time? No, you do not. A true blue rescue will try their absolute best to keep their animals, that have -already- had a rough time, in acceptable conditions, not -this-. These people obviously need to be shut down because they do not care about the well being of these already struggling animals, and because they are not suitable to be called a rescue. Someone more able bodied and strong minded needs to take in these animals. You know, an ACTUAL rescue, not some fat idiot that just takes in unwanted pets and sits them outside of his trailer, leaving them to the mercy of the elements.

DD, good job, don't listen to the people bashing you, saying you should of picked up this guy's slack and supported his ethics by doing so. With your perseverance and determination, those animals will be brought to justice and be dealt with in the most humane way possible, whether they be humanely euthanized due to physical health beyond repair, or given to a responsible rescue that WILL find them a GOOD home instead of just sell them for extremely unreasonable prices to make a quick paycheck.

[Corey209]

One of the reptile organizations should collect donations towards giving schools around the US something like a 20g with a corn snake.

[Aaron_S]

I highly support our community policing itself, in this event, it failed to do so....

It never really has worked.

[TucsonRES]

The Tucson Reptile Community is still working on dealing with this situation and are in the process of combining efforts to form 1 organization that can take in snakes, "lizards" of all sizes & shapes, frogs and turtles. So this story is far from over yet.
I agree with DD, that we need to start policing ourselves before some gov't dept/bureau decides to do this for us.
I would love to see those involved with reptile rescues formulate a feasible, best practices and procedures for a professional Rescue/Rehab group to follow. I have posted this on a rescue network and have been getting some positive ideas. Then anyone who truly wants to do it right can get a certificate or designation of some sort to recognize their commitment to the quality of care. I can't speak for other countries or even other states, but in Arizona, you can wake up tomorrow go on craigslist or place an ad in the local paper and call yourself a rescue.

[bumblebat]

DD, thank you for bringing this to everyone's attention, and thank you for not cleaning up his mess so he could continue his practices unchallenged. I'm very glad that you weren't afraid to speak out about it and that you didn't let the critical comments stop you from exposing this wastoid. Unfortunately, too many people believe in simple fixes that very few of them would actually even attempt to apply.
Negative people will always find something to nit pick and naysay, and they'll always come up with ridiculous arguments, excuses and place blame where they can to justify their petulant attitudes.
A lot of people would have just complained about it, or just walked away and not said anything. You took the time to communicate with the right people, and I wish more people would put that kind of effort in to things like this.

[Aaron_S]

I agree with DD, that we need to start policing ourselves before some gov't dept/bureau decides to do this for us.

Already has happened. You're too late.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I don't get on here very often any more, but I saw this thread. And I have to say, it absolutely sickens me that anyone would keep any animal in such conditions. I think it was a good choice to walk out, and make the conditions of these animals known as widespread as you could. I would not work for someone like that, trying to pick up his mess at such a magnitude even if I was paid. It's definitely a better choice to get them out of that situation and hopefully get them into a decent one than slave yourself trying to fix someone else's mess, as a few people had suggested. My good wishes go out to the animals and you in your mission to save them. I will be posting a message on my FB profile, and perhaps my Twitter (although I have less than 10 followers, perhaps someone will come by the information).

[TucsonRES]

You're right, it has started Aaron_S, USARK was in Nevada because of House Bills limiting and restricting reptile ownership introduced there. That's why WE need to step up to the plate and formulate acceptable standards of conduct and care for our reptiles. It may not be welcomed by all those that call themselves rescues or rehab centers but if we can do this it may stem the tide of interference and may prevent situations like the one that caused this thread to be written.

[Aaron_S]

You're right, it has started Aaron_S, USARK was in Nevada because of House Bills limiting and restricting reptile ownership introduced there. That's why WE need to step up to the plate and formulate acceptable standards of conduct and care for our reptiles. It may not be welcomed by all those that call themselves rescues or rehab centers but if we can do this it may stem the tide of interference and may prevent situations like the one that caused this thread to be written.

USARK lost all credibility in my opinion after the whole Andrew Wyatt thing. Not even our face of the community can keep from bickering and inside drama.

Secondly, we've have decades to self police. It's failed miserably.

[infernalis]

Here you go..

Deliver Us from Rescues | The Reptile Report (http://thereptilereport.com/deliver-us-from-rescues/)

[dinosaurdammit]

Thanks wayne. So an update, someone I know and have been working with on this went out there today she videoed the whole thing. This will prove my claims and hopefully get the animals get the vet care they need and the homes they desierve

[KORBIN5895]

So I just watched the video Charlotte post on the boi and all I can say is..... WOW! Those sulcattas are big!How did you ever manage to flip it over to see that the carapace was rotting?

[dinosaurdammit]

So I just watched the video Charlotte post on the boi and all I can say is..... WOW! Those sulcattas are big!How did you ever manage to flip it over to see that the carapace was rotting?

He picked up the big male to prove? How heavy they were. There was spots that were cracked and had slimey crud coming out either pus or garbage

[ilovemypets1988]

can someone link the video here please as i dont know where the BOI is

[dinosaurdammit]

D&M Reptile Rescue in Marana, AZ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgbJ0PkGoGg&feature=share)

[ilovemypets1988]

thanx dd, ill watch it now

[DOBERMAN]

Large enclosures
adequate food and light
no mites
Certainly the cleanup could be improved on - hence why he would have posted a job offer
Yes maybe a skinny boa and an iguana with a partially missing lower jaw.
which is not out of the ordinary - it is a rescue of course- he didn't cause it - and at least he's giving them shelter and food whereas alot of people would have thrown them in a dumpster
Looks like there is a lot of effort and money he puts into the operations which he can be commended for.
Our local zoo, which is a lot bigger than this operation, and has a number of reptiles, is, when observed behind the official public areas, in worse condition than this
But I suppose the bias and pre decided consensus may still prevail.
I am seeing a witch hunt.
Jarich.....I'm not old - that has nothing to do with being "old school". Old school is when you don't let emotion run your mouth or your actions, and you try your best to remedy or assist in a situation instead of opting out or calling in the cavalry.
But I will bow out of this thread at this point. this is tiresome

[dinosaurdammit]

Large enclosures
adequate food and light
no mites
Certainly the cleanup could be improved on - hence why he would have posted a job offer
Yes maybe a skinny boa and an iguana with a partially missing lower jaw.
which is not out of the ordinary - it is a rescue of course- he didn't cause it - and at least he's giving them shelter and food whereas alot of people would have thrown them in a dumpster
Looks like there is a lot of effort and money he puts into the operations which he can be commended for.
Our local zoo, which is a lot bigger than this operation, and has a number of reptiles, is, when observed behind the official public areas, in worse condition than this
But I suppose the bias and pre decided consensus may still prevail.
I am seeing a witch hunt.
Jarich.....I'm not old - that has nothing to do with being "old school". Old school is when you don't let emotion run your mouth or your actions, and you try your best to remedy or assist in a situation instead of opting out or calling in the cavalry.
But I will bow out of this thread at this point. this is tiresome



you can give any animal shelter and food, but what if its the WRONG food or the WRONG type of habitat, then its no good for ANYTHING.

[dinosaurdammit]

Later tonight dan krull is posting an interview, and reptile daily will be posting tuesday about this. In the video you can see the conditions and he has lied to many people. I know he personally lied to me and then lied to people who contacted him for an interview before the video was up, in the video he is caught in his lies.

A lie off hand is "cleaning day" he said saturday, and told c.gillis that but then recanted and basically said like every other day and saturday. This is a lie. That much filth shouldnt be there. In the film which is now fixed and not tiny you can see the filth and the amount of cages he has, he has probably about a hundred. I plan on later trying to count all the cages and animal related items. None are used, they sit outside getting ruined. He could sell them all and do well for himself but he just seems to hold on to them like the animals. I dont think he sees the animals as animals but rather items that he cannot part with thus the EXPENSIVE "adoption" cost. I hope both he and the animals get the help they need and that he is not allowed to run a "rescue" any more. It is clear he doesnt have the time or resources to do so and doesnt seem to give much care in their husbandry.

[Jeepers]

"Oh yeah, this rainforest biome reptile is peerrrrfectly fine and happy in this large desert biome enclosure. It's big and has light, perfect!"

... I'm just saying, think about what you pretty much just said here.

[StudentoReptile]

The overlying issue is one discussed before, in that cold-blooded creatures, such as reptiles, are not recognized as "animals" under the Animal Welfare Act, and therefore, it is difficult to enforce any kind of neglect or cruelty charges in these situations. Unfortunately, people like this in the reptile community (and I would say the "outer fringes" of the community) will always continue do things like this because they can. Who is going to stop them? USDA? Humane Societies? Posh. We can only police ourselves and obviously, one can see how well we do that.

In these situations, my mentality is this: the people likely are not going to change (unless they are forced by unrelated means), so what you then have to focus on is the animals themselves. Wanna help? Go volunteer and help care for them. You're doing it for the herps, not the scumbag who owns them. Don't think about being an "enabler" because like I said, whether you are there or not, he will be and so will the animals...still living in all that filth.

[Aaron_S]

The overlying issue is one discussed before, in that cold-blooded creatures, such as reptiles, are not recognized as "animals" under the Animal Welfare Act, and therefore, it is difficult to enforce any kind of neglect or cruelty charges in these situations. Unfortunately, people like this in the reptile community (and I would say the "outer fringes" of the community) will always continue do things like this because they can. Who is going to stop them? USDA? Humane Societies? Posh. We can only police ourselves and obviously, one can see how well we do that.

In these situations, my mentality is this: the people likely are not going to change (unless they are forced by unrelated means), so what you then have to focus on is the animals themselves. Wanna help? Go volunteer and help care for them. You're doing it for the herps, not the scumbag who owns them. Don't think about being an "enabler" because like I said, whether you are there or not, he will be and so will the animals...still living in all that filth.

Well said.

Apparently no one should do that though. It's too much work.

[TucsonRES]

I just want to say that, in my opinion the animals should be removed from his care. This man is an adult and should do the right thing to begin with not rely on DD or some volunteer to come and take care of his mess. If he was in over his head, he has options available, the Phoenix Herp Society offered to come and take some of the animals. Had he responded to my emails, I would have offered to take the 11 Red Eared Sliders he has in what looks like a 29g long tank in the video. He has legitimate help available to him if he wants it.
I think that DD, has put a lot of work into trying to make the conditions better. She did clean and feed some of the animals before she couldn't take it anymore. She has spent days and days trying to see what she could to help the animals and she hasn't given up despite some of the comments posted here and on other forums.
I'm glad that there was some improvement in their enclosures but he has a long way to go. As StudentoReptile stated:"...my mentality is this: the people likely are not going to change (unless they are forced by unrelated means)..."
But instead of passing judgement on DD or the guy running the rescue, the real issue is the well being of the animals. Because he didn't break the law, the animals had enclosures, food and water they can't be forcefully or legally be removed at this time.

In Arizona, that's exactly the way the law reads-
Title 13 - Criminal Code, CHAPTER 29 - OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER,
13-2910. Cruelty to animals; interference with working or service animal; classification; definitions
G. For the purposes of this section:
1. "Animal" means a mammal, bird, reptile or amphibian.
2. "Cruel mistreatment" means to torture or otherwise inflict unnecessary serious physical injury upon an animal or to kill an animal in a manner that causes protracted suffering to the animal.
3. "Cruel neglect" means to fail to provide an animal with necessary food, water or shelter.

The law doesn't even specify, though it should be common sense, clean water or the word appropriate or correct when dealing with food and enclosures.
It is up to us in the reptile community to educate the Animal Control people or whomever is responsible for enforcement in your area as to the actual requirements and care involved with reptiles. If you have a club or organization that has meetings invite them out. Let's educate them, so that in the future when they get a complaint they aren't just looking for food, water and shelter. Even if they can't charge them initially, they can at least educate them.

[Aaron_S]

I'm all for someone taking some animals away but it isn't happening at this time it seems.

Next option is to get a team of volunteers to help out so it's less labour intensive on each individual person. Maybe at that time they could talk him into giving up some of the animals or increasing the care of them.

[jarich]

Really Aaron?! The guy who says that buying animals from pet stores propagates further animal abuse is now saying that instead of letting this guy's animals die to get him shut down, says people should instead now go in and fix his problem so that he is able to take in new animals and continue torturing others? Sounds like a convenient change of heart.

There is no fixing this guy's problems. He has been at this abuse for 12 years. He is such an obvious liar and animal abuser, who thinks he is doing nothing wrong and has no need to change anything. I'm shocked by the fact that you would rather be right and prove a point than admit the fact that this man keeps these animals in squalor and should not be helped to continue this abuse in anyway. Take those volunteers and picket at this man's front door. Take them and get them to volunteer calling city council until he is shut down. That will make a difference to the future of reptiles in this area. Everything else is a bandaid.

[cgillis]

Did you people who say this "rescue" needs volunteers even watch the new video? There aren't very many animals there and he tells me while I'm filming that the iguana with no bottom jaw is the only rescue he's taken in in 3 years. Many people I know have more pet reptiles than this and are able to maintain the health of their collection without any help. The people running this have some medical and financial difficulties and shouldn't be trying to help any animals before they help themselves. My calling this a hoard has nothing to do with how many animals are here but the mentality around how he keeps them. All of these animals have other options available to them and help has been offered to these people so they are not burdened by running a rescue any longer. Yes more can be done. Anyone who has seen the video of this place after PACC found it acceptable can see that it is not. You can email PACC at contactpacc@pima.gov and ask them why they turned down help from the Phoenix herp society with this investigation. PACC is our local animal control and their staff isn't trained on the proper keeping of reptiles, to them it's turtle, lizard, snake and they really need help identifying what species these animals are, where their from and what they eat, although I don't think anyone believes rotten vegetation, metal twist ties and rubber bands are a proper tortoise diet. You can bet PETA has seen these videos and they will act if we don't. We can convince PACC to be more involved and to bring in expert help with at least properly investigating.

[Aaron_S]

Really Aaron?! The guy who says that buying animals from pet stores propagates further animal abuse is now saying that instead of letting this guy's animals die to get him shut down, says people should instead now go in and fix his problem so that he is able to take in new animals and continue torturing others? Sounds like a convenient change of heart.

There is no fixing this guy's problems. He has been at this abuse for 12 years. He is such an obvious liar and animal abuser, who thinks he is doing nothing wrong and has no need to change anything. I'm shocked by the fact that you would rather be right and prove a point than admit the fact that this man keeps these animals in squalor and should not be helped to continue this abuse in anyway. Take those volunteers and picket at this man's front door. Take them and get them to volunteer calling city council until he is shut down. That will make a difference to the future of reptiles in this area. Everything else is a bandaid.

Again, you twist my words.

I spoke about BAD pet stores. There's plenty of good ones to support. There's a difference here. One's a for profit business and one is where a guy has people drop them at his door step. Animals dying to him won't stop him.

I only made one suggestion. Go ahead. Get a group to picket. I'm fine with either or. It seems no one else wants to turn a bad thing good. The only solution to everyone is to shut it down instead of education. I thought that's what we were supposed to do?

[jarich]

I didnt twist your words as I didnt use them. I used your point to show your inconsistency.

The point here is that someone in our community came here to show deplorable conditions in a rescue; so deplorable, in fact, that she felt overwhelmed and walked out, and tried to get some support from us. Rather than support her in the correct decision of getting the authorities involved, there were members who attacked her for being lazy, and defended the guy who was so obviously inept and doesnt deserve to have any animals, much less a rescue. The only good here would be to get this guy's animals out of his hands as soon as possible, and fixing his problems for him isnt going to get that result. Its well and good to say that someone should go clean their tanks, but that isnt going to help the authorities gain enough ammunition to shut him down, nor is cleaning the only problem with their care. From the video, this guy obviously thinks he already knows how to care for them best and doesnt think he is doing anything wrong. He is unwilling to accept blame of any kind and change, so the best course of action is what is getting them away from him. Its terrible that these animals will continue to suffer until they are out of his hands, but going out to clean their cages isnt going to change that.

In case any of you are obtuse enough to think the conditions there are 'good enough', go check out what temperature Tucson got down to last night. Nevermind, Ill do it for you; it got down to 31 degrees there, colder than here in NYC last night. Then think about that tegu on the porch with only thin plastic between him and the outside, or that one board separating the bearded dragon and pythons from the outside. Oh but right, the sulcata's had that one little CHE under the tarp, that should be fine for all four or five of them. Ya, Doberman, its just a bit of cleaning that is the only problem there. Im shocked any of those animals are alive still and it only goes to show how much reptiles can endure before dying.

Aaron, its comical that you said you lost respect for USARK for infighting yet fail to support most members in a constructive way here, choosing instead to nitpick and argue all under the guise of "not sugar coating" things. You didnt just make 'one suggestion' in this thread. You attacked a person for being emotional about a gross injustice. At least be man enough to own up to your comments and admit when youre wrong. You dont get to play the innocent simply because your argument doesnt hold water.

And yes, Doberman, its fairly obvious about how old you are. I didnt say you were old, I said you were acting like an old guy from Scooby Doo. And by all means bow out, your contribution here wasnt worth it from the beginning anyway.

[dinosaurdammit]

At eleven in the morning her temp gun said in the heated section of the tort pen was sixty degrees. Think about the night temps. Don't still call that cruel?

[TucsonRES]

Again, you twist my words.

I spoke about BAD pet stores. There's plenty of good ones to support. There's a difference here. One's a for profit business and one is where a guy has people drop them at his door step. Animals dying to him won't stop him.

I only made one suggestion. Go ahead. Get a group to picket. I'm fine with either or. It seems no one else wants to turn a bad thing good. The only solution to everyone is to shut it down instead of education. I thought that's what we were supposed to do?

Aaron_S. I think that maybe you are missing a small part of this story and the equation here. There is no licensing requirement here to be a rescue. Also, this" rescue" is NOT registered as a Non-Profit Company. Therefore, if it is any sort of business entity, it's a for profit business.

[dinosaurdammit]

Aaron_S. I think that maybe you are missing a small part of this story and the equation here. There is no licensing requirement here to be a rescue. Also, this" rescue" is NOT registered as a Non-Profit Company. Therefore, if it is any sort of business entity, it's a for profit business.

an even more plain version:

This is the worst form of pet shop, a back yard breeder type of place. He may not breed them on purpose, but he doesnt try and stop it either. Gravid females exposed to that kind of life is just horrible. A pet shop would be shut down, yet he continues. And its ok to aron because he calls himself a rescue. You know what, Ima call myself a dragon, and thus I was a dragon. After all, i am calling myself one. :rolleyes:


there were dead animals there, and PACC said that is ok? Nothing there is ok.

[sonoranreptile]

Ok, I have known David at D&M for over 10 years. I knew him when he started his "rescue" operation. In my honest opinion, he really shouldn't own any animals. I used to deal with him on a weekly basis when he first started running his rescue and you can tell when people actually care for animals and when they just like to say that they have them. He is the latter, unfortunately. One lovely story is a customer of our ( I work at a pet shop in Tucson) was on vacation and came home to find that his monitor (cannot remember what it was specifically) had gotten out of it's enclosure due to the person watching house had forgot to lock it's outdoor enclosure. Apparently while he was gone, one of is neighbors called D&M and told them there was some strange lizard in their backyard and asked them to come get it, which they did. The guy returned 2 days later and came to out store asking about D&M and how to get a hold of them about his lizard ( they would not return his calls and told him they didn;t have it)) since he had recent pics of it (complete with a defining scar) so he could get it back from them. The customer sent one of his friends over to D&M, "undercover", to see if he could see the guys monitor. Yep! It was there....up for adoption for $300. A few days later David comes into our shop and my boss confronts him about the lizard and why he wouldn't give him the lizard back ( the customer was willing to pay for the rescue and boarding it for the few days they had it), but David denied it was our customer's animal and wanted the full price for it. So after all this happened, David stopped coming by our shop and the guy NEVER got his monitor back.....

Charlotte, I commend you on getting the video and dinosaurdammit, kudos for bringing this fiasco to light. -- Derek

[sws]

dino i think you did what you could and no one has the right to demand more of you. Also i volly at a non-profit no kill shelter that rescues all kinds of animals and non i mean NON of them are horribly unhealthy, yes some come to us with problems special the cats but they dont stay bad for long. dino i think you could find a shelter that you could work at with you health and body i know one like mine would work out fine sense the heaviest thing i lift is some cages mainly we clean crates and tanks and make sure everyone has food and water. Now i know not all shelters are equal but NO shelter should get that bad and if it does the owner should NOT leave it that bad and should work to take care fo animals he took in as his job.

[ilovemypets1988]

as far as im concerned, a rescue is not a job but instead an enjoyment and should be treated as such, simply because if you enjoy it, you will keep everything as clean, healthy and as tidy as possible, but if yu see it as a job, you start to think (or will eventually in most cases) that any work you actually do is a chore and will in the end stop enjoying it and it will start to lag abit, therefore conditions will start to go south until it gets into a pretty bad shape, im not condoning what he did nor do i agree with it, but this is what happens when you stop enjoying it

[sws]

^^
true but even if you dont enjoy it you still gotta do it while they are in your care. i personaly love volly work at the shelter but sometimes it is more a job and i do it more because they(the animals) need me to then i want to.

[ilovemypets1988]

^^
true but even if you dont enjoy it you still gotta do it while they are in your care. i personaly love volly work at the shelter but sometimes it is more a job and i do it more because they(the animals) need me to then i want to.

this is very true, unfortunately though, not everyone sees it that way.
alot of people see animals as either money makers or as (sorry for puting it this way) disposable objects and simply wont care after they stopped enjoying them.

[sonoranreptile]

this is very true, unfortunately though, not everyone sees it that way.
alot of people see animals as either money makers or as (sorry for puting it this way) disposable objects and simply wont care after they stopped enjoying them.
That happens way more often than people realize.....especially with animals that are not mainstream and are not seen as "cuddly and furry"......

[sws]

very true and those people drive me up a wall.

[ilovemypets1988]

yep same here

[dinosaurdammit]

Ok, I have known David at D&M for over 10 years. I knew him when he started his "rescue" operation. In my honest opinion, he really shouldn't own any animals. I used to deal with him on a weekly basis when he first started running his rescue and you can tell when people actually care for animals and when they just like to say that they have them. He is the latter, unfortunately. One lovely story is a customer of our ( I work at a pet shop in Tucson) was on vacation and came home to find that his monitor (cannot remember what it was specifically) had gotten out of it's enclosure due to the person watching house had forgot to lock it's outdoor enclosure. Apparently while he was gone, one of is neighbors called D&M and told them there was some strange lizard in their backyard and asked them to come get it, which they did. The guy returned 2 days later and came to out store asking about D&M and how to get a hold of them about his lizard ( they would not return his calls and told him they didn;t have it)) since he had recent pics of it (complete with a defining scar) so he could get it back from them. The customer sent one of his friends over to D&M, "undercover", to see if he could see the guys monitor. Yep! It was there....up for adoption for $300. A few days later David comes into our shop and my boss confronts him about the lizard and why he wouldn't give him the lizard back ( the customer was willing to pay for the rescue and boarding it for the few days they had it), but David denied it was our customer's animal and wanted the full price for it. So after all this happened, David stopped coming by our shop and the guy NEVER got his monitor back.....

Charlotte, I commend you on getting the video and dinosaurdammit, kudos for bringing this fiasco to light. -- Derek


he told me a story about a monitor, he said that it couldnt have crossed a road and gotten in the yard. He said the owner was a liar, although i smelled a rat, and not the pack rats. He STOLE that animal in my opinion, the guy had proof it was his and he refused and denied he even had it, from what C.Gillis said he mentioned something about feeding a monitor lizard eggs, could this mean he still has it, hidden away in his house? He seemed over protective of people looking inside.

[sonoranreptile]

This whole monitor thing happened about 8 years ago, so I'm not really sure if it's the same animal.....but who knows.....

[dinosaurdammit]

This whole monitor thing happened about 8 years ago, so I'm not really sure if it's the same animal.....but who knows.....

it would surprise me but there are not many monitors in tucson so where did this one that he is feeding eggs come from

[cgillis]

it would surprise me but there are not many monitors in tucson so where did this one that he is feeding eggs come from
There are a LOT of monitors in tucson. Savanna monitors and nile monitors are both quite popular pets as imported babies from most of the pet stores.

[dinosaurdammit]

There are a LOT of monitors in tucson. Savanna monitors and nile monitors are both quite popular pets as imported babies from most of the pet stores.

not this kind of monitor, what i understood is it was a croc monitor, at least thats what he (D&M) told me. Cause I asked about the croc monitor on his website and he told me the tale of a guy who called about a lizard in his yard and a guy called to claim it and had given the right area but it was impossible for that lizard to have crossed the road and therefore wasnt his.

[dinosaurdammit]

» Herp Nation Radio Network Special Report – Reptile Rescue Conditions - Herp Nation Media (http://www.herpnation.com/audio/dks-sr7-022513/)

[TucsonRES]

To anyone in Az, please go to this causes page and share it with your friends here: Change is needed in the wording of animal cruelty & neglect laws and it needs to start with us | causes.com (http://www.causes.com/actions/1734707-change-is-needed-in-the-wording-of-animal-cruelty-neglect-laws-and-it-needs-to-start-with-us).

It is to amend current Title 13 - Criminal Code, CHAPTER 29 - OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER, 13-2910. Cruelty to animals; interference with working or service animal; classification; definitions
G. For the purposes of this section:
1. "Animal" means a mammal, bird, reptile or amphibian.
2. "Cruel mistreatment" means to torture or otherwise inflict unnecessary serious physical injury upon an animal or to kill an animal in a manner that causes protracted suffering to the animal.
3. "Cruel neglect" means to fail to provide an animal with necessary food, water or shelter.

What we propose is for the law to read in Sec 3 is: "Cruel neglect" means to fail to provide an animal with necessary and appropriate food, clean water and proper shelter.

That simple change would allow enforcement officers more tools to protect all animals. It is a starting point to helping these animals. I have also emailed our elected officials.

Thanks,
Doug

[Aaron_S]

To anyone in Az, please go to this causes page and share it with your friends here: Change is needed in the wording of animal cruelty & neglect laws and it needs to start with us | causes.com (http://www.causes.com/actions/1734707-change-is-needed-in-the-wording-of-animal-cruelty-neglect-laws-and-it-needs-to-start-with-us).

It is to amend current Title 13 - Criminal Code, CHAPTER 29 - OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER, 13-2910. Cruelty to animals; interference with working or service animal; classification; definitions
G. For the purposes of this section:
1. "Animal" means a mammal, bird, reptile or amphibian.
2. "Cruel mistreatment" means to torture or otherwise inflict unnecessary serious physical injury upon an animal or to kill an animal in a manner that causes protracted suffering to the animal.
3. "Cruel neglect" means to fail to provide an animal with necessary food, water or shelter.

What we propose is for the law to read in Sec 3 is: "Cruel neglect" means to fail to provide an animal with necessary and appropriate food, clean water and proper shelter.

That simple change would allow enforcement officers more tools to protect all animals. It is a starting point to helping these animals. I have also emailed our elected officials.

Thanks,
Doug

I sincerely hope that gets changed for you.

[StudentoReptile]

At least in your state, "animal" includes reptiles.

[dinosaurdammit]

At least in your state, "animal" includes reptiles.

yet it doesnt state anything other than food and water and shelter, reptiles cannot survive with food water and shelter, they need proper food/water/environment and husbandry. Anything less is cruel. Other states need to step up. With the wording like it is it says it covers reptiles yet none of this is suitable for their survival.

[Aaron_S]

yet it doesnt state anything other than food and water and shelter, reptiles cannot survive with food water and shelter, they need proper food/water/environment and husbandry. Anything less is cruel. Other states need to step up. With the wording like it is it says it covers reptiles yet none of this is suitable for their survival.

When playing with the law you must think and act like the law. Within the definition of "shelter" here:

Shelter | Define Shelter at Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shelter?s=t)

It states: something beneath, behind, or within which a person, animal, or thing is protected from storms, missiles, adverse conditions, etc.; refuge.

Note the bold part. That would constitute improper temperatures or humidity for a reptile. You could use this to prove that this place isn't supplying appropriate shelter.

Anyone going to 'war' legally after something should know how to work even the broad wording of the law to their benefit.

You're welcome.

[TucsonRES]

When playing with the law you must think and act like the law. Within the definition of "shelter" here:

Shelter | Define Shelter at Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shelter?s=t)

It states: something beneath, behind, or within which a person, animal, or thing is protected from storms, missiles, adverse conditions, etc.; refuge.

Note the bold part. That would constitute improper temperatures or humidity for a reptile. You could use this to prove that this place isn't supplying appropriate shelter.

Anyone going to 'war' legally after something should know how to work even the broad wording of the law to their benefit.

You're welcome.

Exactly Aaron_S. That's why I chose the words appropriate food and proper shelter. That includes the requirements without being specific. Because, what happens if you try to spell it all out, is if husbandry recommendations change it would or could be unenforceable and we're back to this type of situation.

[Aaron_S]

Exactly Aaron_S. That's why I chose the words appropriate food and proper shelter. That includes the requirements without being specific. Because, what happens if you try to spell it all out, is if husbandry recommendations change it would or could be unenforceable and we're back to this type of situation.

My point is, it's already in the law. "necessary shelter and food" can be said to mean proper diet and proper temperatures and humidity.

If someone attempted to feed a dog canned beans would anyone say that it equals "necessary" food? No of course not. So why would reptiles be exempt?

You need to find the proper diets by really good sources. Wikipedia doesn't count. Needs to be the likes of peer reviewed papers from scientists or published books. A case could be built upon this but I don't think anyone wants to do that kind of work.

[infernalis]

When is a ?Rescue? Not a Rescue? | The Reptile Report (http://thereptilereport.com/when-is-a-rescue-not-a-rescue/)

Deliver Us from Rescues | The Reptile Report (http://thereptilereport.com/deliver-us-from-rescues/)

[dinosaurdammit]

dunno what good it will do but Change is needed in the wording of animal cruelty & neglect laws and it needs to start with us | causes.com (http://www.causes.com/actions/1734707-change-is-needed-in-the-wording-of-animal-cruelty-neglect-laws-and-it-needs-to-start-with-us)

[cgillis]

I received an email from animal control (PACC) stating that they will be investigating this further with a reptile veterinarian. I hope that the health and well being improves for these people and the reptiles. Thank you to everyone who took the time to look past all the emotions and drama and speak up about this. I believe there are many ways to successfully house and care for collections of reptiles as pets, rescues or even inventory. These animals do take time and care, most of which isn't as glamorous as our Facebook pages make it out to be.

[TucsonRES]

My point is, it's already in the law. "necessary shelter and food" can be said to mean proper diet and proper temperatures and humidity.

If someone attempted to feed a dog canned beans would anyone say that it equals "necessary" food? No of course not. So why would reptiles be exempt?"

I agree with and understand what you are saying. The trouble is getting the enforcement officers to go by the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law. Specially when we're not dealing with cute and furry puppies and kitties.

Hopefully when the animal control officer re-inspects them with a reptile vet, their eyes will get opened and begin to change the way they think and handle things.

[dinosaurdammit]

Daily Reptile News (http://www.dailyreptilenews.com/?p=6031)

[Aaron_S]

I agree with and understand what you are saying. The trouble is getting the enforcement officers to go by the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law. Specially when we're not dealing with cute and furry puppies and kitties.

Hopefully when the animal control officer re-inspects them with a reptile vet, their eyes will get opened and begin to change the way they think and handle things.

You need to keep attempting. I haven't heard of anyone attempting yet.

Also, the guy seems to be willing to talk about his rescue.

Has anyone asked him if he's willing to take on more volunteers to help build better enclosures? Nobody wants to help clean but maybe building the proper enclosures some people will volunteer? Someone can ask local businesses for donations of materials or construction sites for extra wood etc.

[jarich]

He seems to be willing to make excuses to get out of why he is being harassed. I dont see much more than that on the video. Remember, he is under the gun from the authorities now, so he doesnt seem to be open to talking so much as trying to backpedal. Each question is met with an excuse as to why its not his fault or why there isnt any problem with what he is doing.

Also, HE should be the one to fix his enclosures, not volunteers. Getting the volunteers to do his work results in a quick bandaid fix and doesnt address the larger problem that he has now and has had for over a decade.

[dinosaurdammit]

He seems to be willing to make excuses to get out of why he is being harassed. I dont see much more than that on the video. Remember, he is under the gun from the authorities now, so he doesnt seem to be open to talking so much as trying to backpedal. Each question is met with an excuse as to why its not his fault or why there isnt any problem with what he is doing.

Also, HE should be the one to fix his enclosures, not volunteers. Getting the volunteers to do his work results in a quick bandaid fix and doesnt address the larger problem that he has now and has had for over a decade.

Its not a rescue any more. Its a badly run back yard breeder type pet shop with stupid high fees. He wants people to do the work for him so he can get paid. Its as simple as that. He has other people do the work and he cashes in when ever something finally makes it out of there.

[jasonw]

YKAjaGai1oA

[TucsonRES]

You need to keep attempting. I haven't heard of anyone attempting yet.
I have tried to talk to PACC and even have a friend that works there and they are not returning phone calls and they are sending out generic form emails. I believe that someone else has tried to talk to PACC and educate them. Unfortunately, because of the attention this is situation has gathered they are probably going into CYA mode.

Also, the guy seems to be willing to talk about his rescue.
I have called a couple of times and left messages that have not been returned as well as emails. I know for a fact that 2 other people have attempted to contact him with no response either.
He did talk to Daily Reptile News and listen to it and judge for yourself how talkative and upfront he is. Daily Reptile News (http://www.dailyreptilenews.com/?p=6031)

Has anyone asked him if he's willing to take on more volunteers to help build better enclosures? Nobody wants to help clean but maybe building the proper enclosures some people will volunteer? Someone can ask local businesses for donations of materials or construction sites for extra wood etc.
Personally, if he had returned calls or emails or seemed to be reasonable with his fees and asked for help, I'd probably take time away from the animals I take in and would be willing to help get things straight. The problem is his attitude and unwillingness to change.
He has no problems taking on more volunteers, that's less work that he has to do. His whole thing right now seems to be you do it, you give it...
Here's what David from D&M said on Fauna today verbatim and all in caps:
"IF YOU PEOPLE WHAT TO HELP WITH LIGHT BULBS, THAT YOU THINK I NEED, DONATE THEM TO US, ALSO IF YOU THINK THE REPTILES NEED TO BE SEEN MORE THEN WHEN THEY ARE CHECKED BY A VET WHEN I GET THEM, DONATE TO ORANGE ANIMAL HOSPITAL UNDER D & M'S REPTILE RESCUE.

[Graven Idol]

Hi, there, I saw this on Tumblr, I'm from Denver, and I even went out of my way to call this rescue. Mind you, I didn't go in guns a'blazing but I did ask how their animals are being treated. I believe I was on the phone with Melanie Shroyer, who assured me these pictures are not of their animals. Now, I am no way defending her, but I feel like I should post this because that's what she told me. Basically, her gist was they don't know the original poster and had confirmed they have received calls and emails about these pictures, and people come and go to check out their animals.

I told her I've been surrounded by exotic animals; I have experience with iguanas, turtles, bearded dragons, and even parrots. I told her it's not that hard to check in on them and she agreed. She said she didn't know what to do, continue to deny that these were her animals and I asked her "well, if that's the case, don't you think you folks ought to put up a disclaimer?" since they're being "harassed", as it were. It pisses me off because we have our own reptile rescues, especially with iguanas, because people fail to read up on care of them.

So it does sound like they have gotten attention over this, but as far as I'm concerned, "look lady, either record a video or make a statement". I don't know if I can believe that since more attention goes to mammals in terrible conditions versus birds and reptiles. Makes me mad, because these were animals I GREW UP WITH and I LOVE them.

[dinosaurdammit]

Hi, there, I saw this on Tumblr, I'm from Denver, and I even went out of my way to call this rescue. Mind you, I didn't go in guns a'blazing but I did ask how their animals are being treated. I believe I was on the phone with Melanie Shroyer, who assured me these pictures are not of their animals. Now, I am no way defending her, but I feel like I should post this because that's what she told me. Basically, her gist was they don't know the original poster and had confirmed they have received calls and emails about these pictures, and people come and go to check out their animals.

I told her I've been surrounded by exotic animals; I have experience with iguanas, turtles, bearded dragons, and even parrots. I told her it's not that hard to check in on them and she agreed. She said she didn't know what to do, continue to deny that these were her animals and I asked her "well, if that's the case, don't you think you folks ought to put up a disclaimer?" since they're being "harassed", as it were. It pisses me off because we have our own reptile rescues, especially with iguanas, because people fail to read up on care of them.

So it does sound like they have gotten attention over this, but as far as I'm concerned, "look lady, either record a video or make a statement". I don't know if I can believe that since more attention goes to mammals in terrible conditions versus birds and reptiles. Makes me mad, because these were animals I GREW UP WITH and I LOVE them.

so they dont know me, even though I was there? Is that what I am trying to understand here?

[infernalis]

Getting some weird replies on this one..

[sws]

always happens when something like this goes down no?

[dinosaurdammit]

always happens when something like this goes down no?

honestly idk, i never had experience with "rescues" that wernt cat and dog related. I am unsure of how the community normally reacts to this type of thing.

[sws]

i was meaning humans in general in situations like these.

[dinosaurdammit]

so my cousin posted the situation to tumbler and this has happened:

"tumbleruser asked: I should clarify: they said they weren't THEIR animals from the pictures posted on that forum and deny that girl ever worked for them.

OH okay. Still strange.

+
3 NOTES
tumbleruser asked: I'm on the phone with D & M's Reptile Rescue And Rehabilitation, and they're saying that those are not animals and said the previous volunteer has not worked there. I kept it civil and they said there was nothing they can do about it, but I told them disclaimers exist. They have been getting calls and emails about what is going on about their shelter. I even told them "guys, it's not that hard to check in on reptiles". Make of it what you will :/

…they said that reptiles are not actually animals? That is really scary."

so d&m is saying that the pictures and video are not their animals. Cool. Just so we are clear its these people and not another D&M if it exist

D&M's Reptile Rescue & Rehabilitation (http://www.dmreptilerescue.com/)

[Graven Idol]

so my cousin posted the situation to tumbler and this has happened:

"tumbleruser asked: I should clarify: they said they weren't THEIR animals from the pictures posted on that forum and deny that girl ever worked for them.

OH okay. Still strange.

+
3 NOTES
tumbleruser asked: I'm on the phone with D & M's Reptile Rescue And Rehabilitation, and they're saying that those are not animals and said the previous volunteer has not worked there. I kept it civil and they said there was nothing they can do about it, but I told them disclaimers exist. They have been getting calls and emails about what is going on about their shelter. I even told them "guys, it's not that hard to check in on reptiles". Make of it what you will :/

…they said that reptiles are not actually animals? That is really scary."

so d&m is saying that the pictures and video are not their animals. Cool. Just so we are clear its these people and not another D&M if it exist

Firstly, I apologize for my reply if it created any confusion. Long story short, they have said repeatedly on the phone to me that these are not their animals and for the sake of civility I said "if I were in your shoes, I would put a disclaimer". But yes, they claim that they do not know you, that they have no idea why anyone would accuse them of this "horrible" thing and completely feigned innocence. It is really circulating on Tumblr and I posted it to my Facebook earlier. But yeah, man, she was really weird on the phone and I honestly don't believe her.

BTW, I'm ofborrowedlight on Tumblr.

[dinosaurdammit]

Firstly, I apologize for my reply if it created any confusion. Long story short, they have said repeatedly on the phone to me that these are not their animals and for the sake of civility I said "if I were in your shoes, I would put a disclaimer". But yes, they claim that they do not know you, that they have no idea why anyone would accuse them of this "horrible" thing and completely feigned innocence. It is really circulating on Tumblr and I posted it to my Facebook earlier. But yeah, man, she was really weird on the phone and I honestly don't believe her.

BTW, I'm ofborrowedlight on Tumblr.

I used tumbleruser just in case you didn't wany your username shown. Thank you for clarifying. Did you speak to both david and his wife? And did they deny the woman who took the video too?

[Graven Idol]

I'm cool with either with my Tumblr name, so no worries!

I have not spoken to David, I spoke to a woman, but since I did not bring up the videos, and just the pictures, that wasn't addressed accept she assured me many people were coming in and seeing for themselves that the animals were well cared for.

[KORBIN5895]

Its not a rescue any more. Its a badly run back yard breeder type pet shop with stupid high fees. He wants people to do the work for him so he can get paid. Its as simple as that. He has other people do the work and he cashes in when ever something finally makes it out of there.

Can you please post actual proof that they are breeding these animals?

[dinosaurdammit]

Can you please post actual proof that they are breeding these animals?

In the video he says he doesn't breed them yet has a male alone with a harem of females who lay their eggs in the food or dirt. This is breeding. None of the offspring are viable but if given 1/4 the chance they would be. He instead feeds eggs to the tegu and on the video says monitors

[jarich]

In the video the owner mentions that various animals have laid eggs. I highly doubt that any in his care would be healthy enough to actually breed after he got his hands on them, but I suppose with the warm Arizona summers there is always a chance some of them did.

[KORBIN5895]

In the video he says he doesn't breed them yet has a male alone with a harem of females who lay their eggs in the food or dirt. This is breeding. None of the offspring are viable but if given 1/4 the chance they would be. He instead feeds eggs to the tegu and on the video says monitors

That doesn't mean he is a breeder. Has he ever hatched any of these eggs? Can you prove he sold the offspring?

So what if his female iggy laid eggs without a male present? Would you still consider him a breeder? That's a really bold ( and exaggerated statement) for such little evidence.

[jarich]

That doesn't mean he is a breeder. Has he ever hatched any of these eggs? Can you prove he sold the offspring?

So what if his female iggy laid eggs without a male present? Would you still consider him a breeder? That's a really bold ( and exaggerated statement) for such little evidence.

PHEW! Good thing you caught that Kevin! Its so important to this thread and the issue at hand, that you be correct in showing everyone the misuse of the exact definition of the term "breeder" here. I bet if the animals could talk they would thank you from the bottom of their hearts for your contribution to their wellbeing. Well done sir, well done.

(In case it passed you by, that was dripping with sarcasm)

[dinosaurdammit]

and the plot thickens

D&M`s Reptile Rescue - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiAvaRLhyM8)

[KORBIN5895]

PHEW! Good thing you caught that Kevin! Its so important to this thread and the issue at hand, that you be correct in showing everyone the misuse of the exact definition of the term "breeder" here. I bet if the animals could talk they would thank you from the bottom of their hearts for your contribution to their wellbeing. Well done sir, well done.

(In case it passed you by, that was dripping with sarcasm)

This whole thing is being based on emotion and exaggeration. There're many things that have been said by both sides that just need to stop.

Now since you are taking up the cause let us look at what she has insinuated with out one shred of evidence. She calls him a thief for accepting a "surrender fee" because he doesn't take them to a vet when the site says it will go toward veterinary care. Without getting into that all it would actually make him a liar at the most.

She claims that he is a "backyard breeder pet shop" without any proof that he breeds or sells the offspring. As a matter of fact there is no proof this guy even sells any of the animals. So far it looks Luke he just keeps them ( which is his constitutional right).

She also comes along and shares a "true" story about him keep a guys monitor. She questions if he has it hiding in his house 10(?) Years later.... seriously? Don't most savs ( which I believe this one was supposed to be) die in the first couple of years? Yet he has managed to keep it alive for ten even though his husbandry for everything else is pretty rough.

Now this one is my favorite. She insinuates that Dave goes into people's back yards and "rescues" their tortoises! She basically says this guy is wandering neighborhoods and stealing animals!

Every last one of them is an unbiased personal attack. I have not said anything since I first said how I feel but I think this is getting ridiculous. Sure the guy doesn't take proper care of his animals. Honestly I don't think he should be running a rescue if he can't provide proper care. Do I personally care if he is shut down or not? Nope. I may think it's sad but I just don't feel like it is the end of the world.

Personally I think you all should stop your hearts from bleeding so some blood makes it back to your brains. That way maybe you could look objectively at some of nonsense being spouted and this could be handled properly.

Oh, Josh? That response style isn't flattering to you or your intelligence. Leave the foolishness to the regular ***hats. I think you are better than that.

[dinosaurdammit]

This whole thing is being based on emotion and exaggeration. There're many things that have been said by both sides that just need to stop.

Now since you are taking up the cause let us look at what she has insinuated with out one shred of evidence. She calls him a thief for accepting a "surrender fee" because he doesn't take them to a vet when the site says it will go toward veterinary care. Without getting into that all it would actually make him a liar at the most.

She claims that he is a "backyard breeder pet shop" without any proof that he breeds or sells the offspring. As a matter of fact there is no proof this guy even sells any of the animals. So far it looks Luke he just keeps them ( which is his constitutional right).

She also comes along and shares a "true" story about him keep a guys monitor. She questions if he has it hiding in his house 10(?) Years later.... seriously? Don't most savs ( which I believe this one was supposed to be) die in the first couple of years? Yet he has managed to keep it alive for ten even though his husbandry for everything else is pretty rough.

Now this one is my favorite. She insinuates that Dave goes into people's back yards and "rescues" their tortoises! She basically says this guy is wandering neighborhoods and stealing animals!

Every last one of them is an unbiased personal attack. I have not said anything since I first said how I feel but I think this is getting ridiculous. Sure the guy doesn't take proper care of his animals. Honestly I don't think he should be running a rescue if he can't provide proper care. Do I personally care if he is shut down or not? Nope. I may think it's sad but I just don't feel like it is the end of the world.

Personally I think you all should stop your hearts from bleeding so some blood makes it back to your brains. That way maybe you could look objectively at some of nonsense being spouted and this could be handled properly.

Oh, Josh? That response style isn't flattering to you or your intelligence. Leave the foolishness to the regular ***hats. I think you are better than that.

I "insinuated" because they lie and lie about darn near everything. He kept a guys monitor whats to make me doubt he doesnt take other animals and refuse to give them back? Its not a far jump at all. Hoarders often do take other peoples animals because they feel that they would be doing better for that animal than someone else.

The bull snake is native and apparently you have to have permits to own one. Does he own permits? Probably not.

Iguanas dont need uvb. Aquatic turtles need greens. I have to wonder korbin if you ever trulywatch videos we post that are records of the conditions or you come in here to stir the pot. Phoenix herp just called a few mins ago and they asked for the number for dan krull. D&M has lied and lied and lied and provided piss poor conditions for these animals and yet you never say that in any of your post without dragging us in the mud, you just nit pick at us rather than actually adding anything of value- yes, we are emotional but no decision is made rationally, its all emotion based and we then try to rationalize it.

That video I just posted and i will post it AGAIN D&M`s Reptile Rescue - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiAvaRLhyM8) proves he has no clue, and now we dont know how old this kid is but if he is under 15 he cant even be helping out with "volunteer" work in arizona. NONE OF THOSE ANIMALS ARE KEPT RIGHT. Heck the water turtles are over crowed to the point of drowning and have no apparent heat or good filters.

[KORBIN5895]

I "insinuated" because they lie and lie about darn near everything. He kept a guys monitor whats to make me doubt he doesnt take other animals and refuse to give them back? Its not a far jump at all. Hoarders often do take other peoples animals because they feel that they would be doing better for that animal than someone else.

The bull snake is native and apparently you have to have permits to own one. Does he own permits? Probably not.

Iguanas dont need uvb. Aquatic turtles need greens. I have to wonder korbin if you ever trulywatch videos we post that are records of the conditions or you come in here to stir the pot. Phoenix herp just called a few mins ago and they asked for the number for dan krull. D&M has lied and lied and lied and provided piss poor conditions for these animals and yet you never say that in any of your post without dragging us in the mud, you just nit pick at us rather than actually adding anything of value- yes, we are emotional but no decision is made rationally, its all emotion based and we then try to rationalize it.

That video I just posted and i will post it AGAIN D&M`s Reptile Rescue - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiAvaRLhyM8) proves he has no clue, and now we dont know how old this kid is but if he is under 15 he cant even be helping out with "volunteer" work in arizona. NONE OF THOSE ANIMALS ARE KEPT RIGHT. Heck the water turtles are over crowed to the point of drowning and have no apparent heat or good filters.

So since he lies you make stuff up to make him look bad? Good call!
Yes I have watched the video.

How is this bold statement even relevant? Could it be his grandson or another relative? Do you even know this kid or his identity? You really need to stop grasping at straws to make your case.



Well Erika since you obviously didn't read what I posted let me point it out so you don't miss it.



She also comes along and shares a "true" story about him keep a guys monitor. She questions if he has it hiding in his house 10(?) Years later.... seriously? Don't most savs ( which I believe this one was supposed to be) die in the first couple of years? Yet he has managed to keep it alive for ten even though his husbandry for everything else is pretty rough.



Every last one of them is an unbiased personal attack. I have not said anything since I first said how I feel but I think this is getting ridiculous. Sure the guy doesn't take proper care of his animals. Honestly I don't think he should be running a rescue if he can't provide proper care. Do I personally care if he is shut down or not? Nope. I may think it's sad but I just don't feel like it is the end of the world.
.

I haven't personally attacked you so for you to claim I am "dragging you through the mud and "stirring the pot" is again purely emotional and greatly exaggerated. You are actually slandering this man. Everything I pointed out is straight fabrications you made up and are using against him.

Could you also clarify where it was said or a video of these turtles drowning? Or is that made up also? Because this is the first I've heard of that.

I also wonder if he would've given you that boa you wanted (so desperately that you even told the aspca you would take in your email complaint) if you would've made such a stink. Maybe when they close him down they will give it to you as a reward.

[jarich]

This whole thing is being based on emotion and exaggeration. There're many things that have been said by both sides that just need to stop.

Now since you are taking up the cause let us look at what she has insinuated with out one shred of evidence. She calls him a thief for accepting a "surrender fee" because he doesn't take them to a vet when the site says it will go toward veterinary care. Without getting into that all it would actually make him a liar at the most.

She claims that he is a "backyard breeder pet shop" without any proof that he breeds or sells the offspring. As a matter of fact there is no proof this guy even sells any of the animals. So far it looks Luke he just keeps them ( which is his constitutional right).

She also comes along and shares a "true" story about him keep a guys monitor. She questions if he has it hiding in his house 10(?) Years later.... seriously? Don't most savs ( which I believe this one was supposed to be) die in the first couple of years? Yet he has managed to keep it alive for ten even though his husbandry for everything else is pretty rough.

Now this one is my favorite. She insinuates that Dave goes into people's back yards and "rescues" their tortoises! She basically says this guy is wandering neighborhoods and stealing animals!

Every last one of them is an unbiased personal attack. I have not said anything since I first said how I feel but I think this is getting ridiculous. Sure the guy doesn't take proper care of his animals. Honestly I don't think he should be running a rescue if he can't provide proper care. Do I personally care if he is shut down or not? Nope. I may think it's sad but I just don't feel like it is the end of the world.

Personally I think you all should stop your hearts from bleeding so some blood makes it back to your brains. That way maybe you could look objectively at some of nonsense being spouted and this could be handled properly.

Oh, Josh? That response style isn't flattering to you or your intelligence. Leave the foolishness to the regular ***hats. I think you are better than that.

Youre right, I should leave the sarcastic comments out of it, my apologies. I tried the rational and it didnt seem to work, so I figured perhaps a different route might have the effect I was looking for. Its not an excuse though, and Ill not do so again.

You're vehement comments seem to amount to the minutiae between someone being a liar or a thief, the difference between an accidental breeder or one who actively breeds and sells, and a story that was told about a possible stolen monitor from an independent source. I'll ask again, what difference does any of that make to the fact that this rescue has been torturing animals slowly and still continues to see nothing wrong with what it is doing? You were right in saying that the comment about the age of the kid on the video isnt relevant, but how are your comments any more relevant? Does it make one bit of difference to those animals if the owner is a liar rather than a thief? Will the animals conditions be improved if you show everyone that none of the eggs that were laid are viable? No, it doesnt and no, it wont. So again I will ask you, why do you so strongly feel the need to detract from the point of the thread, which is to address the issue of the treatment of these animals?

Your suggestion that my position is the one based on merely a 'bleeding heart" and that I am the one who is letting his emotions get in the way of rational thought is strange when looking at your argument. I'm of the opinion that these animals would have had it better if they were just euthanized by their original owners. I dont care about this guy one way or the other, except for the fact that he accepts animals as a rescue and has no business doing so. Thats my head talking not my heart. However, you do seem to have let your emotional need to prove Erica wrong get in the way of your intelligent response to a dire situation for these animals. By your own admission you state that this guy's care is substandard. You routinely attack people on this site for what you consider substandard care. Why, all of a sudden, are you defending someone who by his own admission is both providing substandard care, and obstinate in his refusal to see the truth of the matter or change it? If you knew nothing about reptile care then perhaps I wouldnt question the intellectual nature of your response, but you are obviously looking past your knowledge in your emotional need to prove Erica wrong and yourself right. So who is the one here whose emotions are clouding their intellect, Kevin?

The problem I do have with your post is the suggestion that these are his personal animals to torture as he sees fit. He lists himself as a rescue. He takes money from people who surrender their animals there as a rescue. He seeks out and accepts sponsorship from other businesses as a rescue. He is not just some guy who bought his animals and doesnt have any further responsibility beyond himself. If that was the case, if he took down the rescue part of his operation, then by all means its unfortunate, but none of my, or anyone else's, business really. But that isnt the case, and since he still doesnt think he is doing anything wrong, or in any way needs to change anything he is doing (as evidenced in that latest video) then this still needs our attention.

[cgillis]

"I also wonder if he would've given you that boa you wanted (so desperately that you even told the aspca you would take in your email complaint) if you would've made such a stink. Maybe when they close him down they will give it to you as a reward."

How do you know what is in her emails to the aspca?

[KORBIN5895]

..........

First off I really didn't mean to lump you with the bleeding hearts. I have known you too long to believe that. You are right that if that tegu is six inches, if the torts have rotting carapaces, if the boas are drowning in rusty drums and are blind from YEARS of retained caps, if the iguanas have ice cold water as they bake in the sun and are covered in ulcers then yeah they should be put down because that is humane.


You confuse me with Aaron a lot. I have never said I am "blunt" for the good of the animals. That's not me nor do I feel a need to justify myself for how I act.

As for my need to prove Erika wrong well I really don't have one. How are my post relevant? Simple. She is now making wild accusations and assumptions to make her case sound better! Where I'm from that's lying. So if she wants to stretch those points I have shown well what about other points?

Honestly I said my piece then I pointed out the breeder comment. If you guys feel this is acceptable then hey I made my case and I didn't stretch the truth.

. "I also wonder if he would've given you that boa you wanted so desperately that you even told the aspca you would take in your email complaint) if you would've made such a stink. Maybe when they close him down they will give it to you as a reward."

How do you know what is in her emails to the aspca?

Sorry it was to the Phoenix herp society not aspca.

So here is the email I sent to the phoenix herp rescue:



Boas had facial deformations, a few were blind from MANY YEARS of stuck eye caps, they were blind. When asking him where the red tail went he didnt know his quote and I swear "Huh I have no clue where my red tail went he must have been the one that died" to my responce "why'd he die?" he repiled " ahhh sometimes it just happens". Also one of the females was so badly skinny I doubt she can be saved. If she has a chance, the thinnest one I would really Like her. The one with the stuck eyecaps needs vet cae asap. I was able to remove the shed from the nose so she could breathe. Ones face is messed up so bad I believe it affects her hoe she eats. She needs vet care ASAP- their waterdish was a cold 55 gallon rusty drum that they had to struggle to get out of, the thin one almost drowned.

[Jendee]

I kinda agree that the insults and digging into his personal dealings or assumings of his personal dealings is not necessary and not helping anything. I think focusing on the animals and finding a way to either help him help them or help them should be the only focus. I think the more this guy is called names and such he is just going to shut out help, close his doors then what, then it becomes more invasive with authorities (probably already has) and now you brought bad media to the herp world. As they already say that we keep are animals in horrible conditions this will just confirm there thoughts.
Not by any means saying he should be left alone but there is a more positive way to go about this...

[TucsonRES]

The "personal attacks", semantics, snide or sarcastic comments do not belong on this thread. This isn't about anyone proving anyone right, wrong or superior. This thread is about the deplorable conditions these animals are in and trying to do something about it.

The he said/she said is irrelevant to the issues here.

The pictures that Erica took, the video that Charlotte took on Saturday (which D&M scheduled), the interviews with Dan Krull on Herp Nation and Jason from The Daily Reptile News and even the video response posted on D & M's behalf (which showed David on the video) yesterday are all the proof that should be needed to make up your mind.

Personally, I have kept RES and aquatic turtles for 13 years and take in surrenders but I am just starting to get into other reps. I was excited a week ago to find these forums to gain knowledge and be able to ask questions of people with more experience than I have, but after observing some of the behavior and attitude here and on other threads, I'd rather be smothered in honey, staked to an ant hill AND have a bottomless metal cage containing rats sitting on my torso with the top being heated by a propane torch than ask something and get flamed, abused or demeaned by somebody for asking for help or using a poor word choice.
That's not to say that everybody that has posted on here is like that and I have met some really nice people here that I will pm instead of posting.

[KORBIN5895]

The "personal attacks", semantics, snide or sarcastic comments do not belong on this thread. This isn't about anyone proving anyone right, wrong or superior. This thread is about the deplorable conditions these animals are in and trying to do something about it.

The he said/she said is irrelevant to the issues here.

The pictures that Erica took, the video that Charlotte took on Saturday (which D&M scheduled), the interviews with Dan Krull on Herp Nation and Jason from The Daily Reptile News and even the video response posted on D & M's behalf (which showed David on the video) yesterday are all the proof that should be needed to make up your mind.

Personally, I have kept RES and aquatic turtles for 13 years and take in surrenders but I am just starting to get into other reps. I was excited a week ago to find these forums to gain knowledge and be able to ask questions of people with more experience than I have, but after observing some of the behavior and attitude here and on other threads, I'd rather be smothered in honey, staked to an ant hill AND have a bottomless metal cage containing rats sitting on my torso with the top being heated by a propane torch than ask something and get flamed, abused or demeaned by somebody for asking for help or using a poor word choice.
That's not to say that everybody that has posted on here is like that and I have met some really nice people here that I will pm instead of posting.

I look forward to your pm's.

[jarich]

You confuse me with Aaron a lot.

Honestly I said my piece then I pointed out the breeder comment. If you guys feel this is acceptable then hey I made my case and I didn't stretch the truth.


Na, to me youre just the same person with two accounts. blah blah blah boas... blah blah blah ball pythons...same **** ;) (I honestly couldnt write that without laughing, so hopefully it at least got a smile out of you)

In reference to your second comment above, its not that I do or do not find it acceptable, I simply find it inconsequential. The thread isnt about Erica, its about D & M Rescue. Like TucsonRES said, the evidence is there all on its own.

[KORBIN5895]

Na, to me youre just the same person with two accounts. blah blah blah boas... blah blah blah ball pythons...same **** ;) (I honestly couldnt write that without laughing, so hopefully it at least got a smile out of you)

In reference to your second comment above, its not that I do or do not find it acceptable, I simply find it inconsequential. The thread isnt about Erica, its about D & M Rescue. Like TucsonRES said, the evidence is there all on its own.

I must say giggled!

[Jendee]

I just watched the most recent youtube video (some of the things the narrator or guy video taping said made my jaw hit the floor) it sounds like to me they know absolutely nothing about reptiles!! nothing!! with a side of being lazy/possibly overwhelmed with husbandry/responsibilities

[Jeepers]

Right off that bat:

"They don't need UVB... because they have adapted to the normal light bulb. It also gives out the same amount of heat. "

... Absolute idiots... It's not about heat. That's the absolute last reason UVB, in specific, is so important. UVB light reacts to pigment in the skin as a chemical reaction for vitamin D3. This vitamin is so important because it takes calcium and turns it into usable chemicals that make up bone matter. Not getting D3, either through diet or artificial lighting, can cause problems like Metabolic Bone Disease. Regarding diet, as far as my research has informed me, it's insectivores and vegetarian reptiles that don't get a sufficient amount of D3 in their diet, hence they absolutely NEED the UVB lighting. They don't just 'adapt' to it. That's just stupid.

[sonoranreptile]

Just to clarify about the monitor story that I told you about a few pages back. It was a black roughneck monitor, not exactly common in retail, but was purchased at the pet store where I work and have worked since 1998. He (David @ D and M) refused to admit he had the lizard, then when caught with evidence that he did have "a" black roughneck said it wasn't the same lizard, then when confronted with a photo showing the distinguishing scar and witnessed by a friend actually being at their "facility" he wanted $300 as a re-homing fee. And, after discussing this with my boss and the owner of the pet shop, the reason David from D and M stopped going into our store was because they were CAUGHT STEALING FEEDER RODENTS FROM US.

Been dealing with them on and off since the turn of the century, even before they started their rescue, they were cheap when it came to purchasing proper husbandry items and always skimped where they could. In my opinion based on 14 years of retail pet store work, people that go for the minimum on reptile care, seem to end up with sick or neglected animals. I know it sounds pretty basic, but they are exotic for a reason.......

[Jeepers]

Just to clarify about the monitor story that I told you about a few pages back. It was a black roughneck monitor, not exactly common in retail, but was purchased at the pet store where I work and have worked since 1998. He (David @ D and M) refused to admit he had the lizard, then when caught with evidence that he did have "a" black roughneck said it wasn't the same lizard, then when confronted with a photo showing the distinguishing scar and witnessed by a friend actually being at their "facility" he wanted $300 as a re-homing fee. And, after discussing this with my boss and the owner of the pet shop, the reason David from D and M stopped going into our store was because they were CAUGHT STEALING FEEDER RODENTS FROM US.

Been dealing with them on and off since the turn of the century, even before they started their rescue, they were cheap when it came to purchasing proper husbandry items and always skimped where they could. In my opinion based on 14 years of retail pet store work, people that go for the minimum on reptile care, seem to end up with sick or neglected animals. I know it sounds pretty basic, but they are exotic for a reason.......

Yeah, when it comes to having healthy reptiles, skimping is not an option. The price of proper husbandry for my Caiman goes to show that. Nearly $800 for everything but the Caiman itself. Tank, substrate, bulbs, water heater, decorations, filter, feeders, etc. Their lives depend on what you buy them, you skimp, they suffer.

As you said, they're exotic for a reason. If you can't handle it, you shouldn't have it. Not having the funds is no excuse. If you can't afford it, you shouldn't have it. This man obviously can't afford it(and doesn't want to deal with their exotic needs) and is just waiting for hand outs since no one is adopting from him or surrendering their animals frequently enough to fund his whole hoarding situation(yes, I see this more of a hoarding problem). In fact, more surrenders would just be worse. He's going to need a lot more than a few hundred dollars, I mean, unless he gets hand outs... which I don't see really happening, either. Times are tough, people can't really fork out money these days.

[TucsonRES]

Well, we have some good news to report. Friday, Charlotte and I both talked to David from D&M and after a few conversations, yesterday we went out and David gave me the 12 aquatic turtles and he did state that he will not be taking any more turtles in. David even offered me some tanks and filtration equipment.
We did not take any new video of the conditions or the animals today. We did have a chance to talk a little bit about some of the other animals and he is still considering the offer from the Phoenix Herpetological Society which was extended through Dan Krull.
I want to give a special thank you to Dan for maintaining your professionalism and for going above what anyone could have asked of him in this situation. Also, to the Phoenix Herpetological Society for offering to make the drive and to take in all the remaining animals.
The turtles are currently in their 3 temporary tanks until their tank rack is completed and they have been checked by a vet by the end of the week.
This is a positive first step and we hope that David will continue to get some more positive encouragement from the reptile community and do the right thing for the rest of the animals.

P.S. I was planning on posting a video of the turtles and how to set up an aquatic turtle tank but apparently my phone (and I) take horrible videos, so that's probably not going to happen....but we'll see if I can salvage any of it.

Doug

[TucsonRES]

Unfortunately, I did lose 1 RES in the first 14 hrs, which will be necropsied. I have vet checks scheduled this coming week with Dr. Jarchow. To say that their appetites are good is an understatement. When I threw in the pellets it looked like a feeding frenzy, which is to be expected when they have had nothing but greens for a long time.
After the vet checks are completed, they will be posted for adoption locally to good homes, preferably ones with outdoor ponds.
Even thought this story is far from over and there are more animals that need to be removed, I want to thank Erica (DD) for showing us what was happening out there and Charlotte for all the hours and everything that she has done to help improve the lives of those animals and her family as well for taking the ride out there with me this weekend.

[jarich]

Thanks for the update and for keeping at this. Im happy to hear that David is opening up to the possibility of rehoming them.

[Jendee]

yay!! sounds like things are going in the right direction now :) so happy to hear!! Hopefully David continues to make good choices and this problem will completely be solved and become a positive story :)

[TucsonRES]

Thought I'd share an update on the situation for everyone.
Copies of Charlotte's video and the story out of the UK about a tortoise enclosure that burnt down killing the 2 inhabitants (when they were mating and got tangled up in the heat lamp cords and pulled them down causing the fire) were sent to all the local Fire Inspectors and Fire Chiefs. D&M's address is right in the middle of 3 different Fire Stations and we have gotten responses from all 3. The 2 not responsible for that area thanked us and promised to contact their counterparts who are responsible to get some action taken. The Fire Dept. that is responsible, emailed that they had reviewed the video and have cause for concern and will inspect the property.

David sent an email to Charlotte:
<dmreptilerescue@aol.com> wrote:
i would like to you to know that dr. jarchow was out on 3-2 13, with pacc to health all the reptiles , all are in great health.found anew home for all the waterturtles, new homes for 2 snakes,and someof the tortoies. good by

Charlotte responded to that email with:
To: dmreptilerescue@aol.com
I find that difficult to believe as 3 turtles that were rescued from you need vet care and 1 died within 14 hours, ....

David called me that night and I called him back the next morning. He expressed his regret that the 1 turtle died. He told me during our conversation that he had sold a couple of the snakes and a tort but that he was still considering the offer from Dan and the Phoenix Herp Society. When I asked him what the vet and PACC had said about the turtles, he said, "Well, they really didn't look at the turtles because I told them that you were coming to get them that same day."
Which from the standpoint of thoroughness and accuracy of an investigation really bothered me. So I called the Chief Enforcement Officer for PACC. Jose informed me that they were indeed out there the morning of the 2nd. That the Enforcement Officer who went on this inspection has degrees in Biology/Zoology and Herpetology and that Dr. Jarchow accompanied the officer on the inspection. When I started to ask specific questions, I was told that they can not comment on an open and active investigation. I then informed him that David had said that he had been cleared of everything and given an okay to continue to operate as he had been. I was told that wasn't true and that once the investigation was concluded criminal and/or civil penalties could be imposed.
So that's where things stand as of right now. My concern is that the longer he takes to consider the Phoenix Herp Society offer the less likely he is going to do it.