Help! Egg bound, calcium deficient veiled/yemen cham

[Chu'Wuti]

A family was referred to me by a mutual friend because they are moving 2000 miles away and needed a new home for their veiled chameleon. The family acquired the chameleon as an adult of unknown age about a year ago. I posted their information on our local herp society's forum several months ago, shared it at meetings, etc., but to no avail. They are moving on the 25th, and as their last resort, on Saturday (2/9/13), they asked me to take the chameleon, saying they would give me her entire habitat and supplies as well.

Being a sucker for orphans and unwanted pets, I agreed to take her, but I am a snake-keeper and have never had a chameleon, so I'm a little nervous. After agreeing to take her Saturday, I began researching like crazy to learn as much as I can about the husbandry and feeding of veiled chameleons--read every care sheet I could find online (including those posted in this forum) and ordered books from amazon, two of which arrived yesterday. DH & I have already read through those and are trying to distill the conflicting pieces of information enough to generate a reasonable plan for caring for the chameleon.

However, to add to my sense of inadequacy, Sunday morning (2/10/13), the family discovered the chameleon on the floor of her enclosure, gray and weak. :sad:

They called me in a panic, and I recommended that they take her to Dr. Brad Minson, a herp-certified vet in Oklahoma City who is recommended by the Oklahoma City Herpetological and Invertebrate Society (of which I'm a member). He was out of town, but his office referred them to Neel Veterinary Hospital, telling them they had an exotic animal vet. I don't know whether or not that is the vet they saw, but apparently she seemed competent and comfortable with chams. Other than that, I don't have any further information about the particular vet they saw, except that a herper/pet store owner in OKC says she's OK--not as knowledgeable as {the herp certified vet I recommended}, but better than a regular vet.

They spent $166 on her--she is calcium deficient, dehydrated, AND egg bound. She was given a calcium injection, IV fluids, and calcium drops that must be given to her daily for an unspecified length of time (I have the veterinary report and instructions). The vet also instructed that the UVB bulb be replaced. Finally, the vet told them to give her a "container that has 6-12 inches of over moist play sand in it" so she'll have a place to lay her eggs. Let me quote the entire set of instructions from the vet:

Lea presented for weakness and lethargy. She is egg bound and has low calcium. We can try medical management, but it is likely that she will need to be spayed. I have given her a calcium injection, some fluids under the skin, and am sending you home with an oral calcium supplement. Her humidity needs to be at 60-70% and her environment should be kept at 80 degrees until she is feeling better. I would recommend changing your UVB bulb, just in case it is not emitting the UVB rays that she needs. She needs a container that has 6-12 inches of very moist play sand in it- It should be moist enough that she can dig a tunnel in it and it will not collapse on her. Please see the handouts I am sending home with you for more information. Please don't hesitate to call if you have any questions or concerns.

The vet also said that she's overweight--"Body condition 6," if that means something to anyone.

The family brought the chameleon, her Exo-Terra glass enclosure, her meds, and a few crickets to my house Tuesday evening. "Lea" has been kept in an 18" x 18" x 24" GLASS enclosure with a screen top (for the year this family has had her) :unhappy:; she's currently in that enclosure, as I do not (yet) have appropriate housing for her and there was no time to do anything else Tuesday.

I have ordered a 24" x 24" x 48" screen enclosure and a tray for that enclosure to rehouse Lea after she moves here; that should arrive today, but my Thursday-Friday work schedule is crazy and I won’t be able to move her into it until Saturday (unless I do it in the middle of the night . . . which would disrupt her sleep).

We bought a Zoo Med mini-combo deep dome (dual-dome) light fixture, a new UVB bulb, and an infrared bulb for that fixture. I also bought a Schefflera (one-gallon pot size; 40" from base of pot to top leaves) to put in her enclosure.

In addition, they were keeping an infrared light on above her at night . . . ACK! :angry: Everything I've read says that keeps them awake, and the vet told them that as well . . . Anyway, I have a ceramic heat emitter that we've put on the top of the cage screen for a night-time heat source in place of the infrared light, but it is only raising the temp to 77 deg F even in the glass cage. It’s an old one I hadn’t used in a long time, so apparently I need to get a new one.

Unfortunately, the “pot” the current owners provided for egg laying was only about 5" x 5" square and less than two inches deep—it was a sandwich box! :shocked:

After much reading, I bought a paint bucket (clean, never used for paint), play sand, and Eco Earth. Dh & I soaked the Eco Earth and mixed it with play sand (about 75-80% sand because the Eco Earth was really wet). We filled the bucket to about 1.5 “ below the top. We also planted two small Schefflera on one side of the bucket.

Lea has been fed only gut-loaded, calcium-dusted crickets--no other inverts, no vegetable matter of any kind. This morning I tried to coax her to eat some spinach and other greens, but she is really not interested in them. I also went up to a good pet store in OKC and bought more crickets and gut-loading food—double what I had planned, because the proprietor (well-known to the local herp society as a reputable person) encouraged me to buy more and to try to feed Lea several times a day rather than only in the morning to stimulate her appetite and help her regain enough strength to lay her eggs.

Regarding Lea’s calcium deficiency: I'm not seeing the double elbows shown in some pics posted on the MBD info at another forum for chams. Nevertheless, I am concerned about what appears to be some curvature of leg bones, but I don't know enough about chams to determine whether the curvature I see is abnormal or not. The vet implied that Lea’s calcium deficiency could be contributing to her egg binding issues, though I suspect the primary issue was lack of an adequate place to lay.

Lea is to be given 0.1 ml of the calcium drops twice a day. We have been able to do that without a problem. She doesn't appreciate it, but we can do it.

Lea is able to climb and cling, though she seems to move pretty slowly, which makes me wonder if she is somewhat weak. I know that chams generally do move slowly, but I'm thinking she moves unusually slowly . . . but what do I know??? I take care of snakes, not chams, usually! Though we did end up taking on fire-bellied toads about six months ago . . . Anyway, she was up in a corner when I went back upstairs to get her for her photo op on Tuesday night, and she didn't seem to be having any difficulty hanging on to her vine and the Schefflera last night. Today she is down on the sand in the nesting container, but I haven’t seen her digging—just lying on it.

The owner of the pet store in OKC also wondered whether a shot of oxytocin might help her lay. Apparently the vet to whom Lea was taken only mentioned the possibility of spaying her for $500 and did not give Lea or mention the possibility of giving Lea a shot to stimulate egg laying. Is anyone familiar with this?

What else do I need to do to save this poor chameleon? Is there anything I'm planning that I should NOT do? I've saved a number of snakes and fire-bellied toads, but I've never had a chameleon--and I wasn't ever planning to have one, but here I am . . . just sign me,

A Sucker for an Orphan!

[Chu'Wuti]

Forgot to upload photos. Here they are:

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr268/ChuWuti/IMG_8967.jpg

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr268/ChuWuti/IMG_8968.jpg

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr268/ChuWuti/IMG_8970.jpg

[concinnusman]

I don't know about chameleons specifically but I have kept / bred various species of spiny lizards before. Egg laying time is always critical. Any handling/stress or inability to find a place to lay their eggs that they feel comfortable with, will cause them to retain their eggs too long and become egg bound and that can be fatal without immediate surgery to remove the eggs. Any females that have a chronic problem with this really should have their oviducts/ovaries removed but that's not going to be cheap. You have to take into consideration the age and value (and when I say value I don't just mean dollars) of the animal and decide if it's worth it.

[NBLADE]

Forgot to upload photos. Here they are:

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr268/ChuWuti/IMG_8967.jpg

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr268/ChuWuti/IMG_8968.jpg

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr268/ChuWuti/IMG_8970.jpg

The legs do look a little bowed, it is not to the extreme of severe MBD, so calcium levels aren't terrible yet, but it does look like a minor calcium deficiency, a good high output new uv bulb, and regular calcium dusting would generally sort that issue out, calcium drops on a gravid chameleon is likely to just stress it out more, resulting in her not laying the eggs, egg binding is common in female chameleons when people don't provide adequate laying sites. Apart from that she doesn't look in too bad a condition considering the cage size she was kept in, she isn't egg bound to the point where the eggs are pushing out the sides and are visible, so she still has time to lay them.

If you can sort her a bigger tank, a basking area of around 90 degrees, the bottom of the tank can drop to mid 70s without an issue, make sure she has a real deep laying area, which i see you are sorting out so that is fine, and plenty of greenary in the tank for her to feel safe, and she should do fine.

As for the feeding a varied diet is always good, but some chams are very fussy, crickets and locusts or roaches will be a good diet as long as they are gut loaded well, none of my chameleons would ever really touch any veg matter, but i know some will pick at it, but it isn't essential.

Good luck with her, if she can lay the eggs, once she has settled in she will be a great animal to watch and when she trusts you enough to hand feed, watching them aim and shoot the tongue is rather entertaining.

[concinnusman]

Yeah, multiple egg laying sites at different temperatures and moisture are important. Also very important to give her privacy and not mess with her or she won't lay. You can deal with the calcium issue later. Right now it's critical to get those eggs out.

[Chu'Wuti]

Ah. This poor cham has been multiply stressed by the move, the change in her habitat, the introduction of the bucket of sand-Eco Earth, AND the twice-a-day calcium drops . . . wow.

I'll get one more photo to post of her in the bucket, then I'm going to put a curtain around her tank to see if more privacy helps her feel safer.

[Chu'Wuti]

You can see the top of the paint bucket and Lea inside:

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr268/ChuWuti/IMG_8973.jpg

In the next photo, you can barely see Lea's eye. I think some of the soil has been disturbed; i.e., there seems to be a hump behind the Schefflera that wasn't there this morning when I left to get crickets. However, I can't really say for sure.

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr268/ChuWuti/IMG_8972.jpg

I wrapped an old shower curtain around the open walls of the tank after taking the photos in hopes she'll feel safer.

Her new big enclosure arrived this afternoon just before I got home again. Should we wait to move her until she has laid her eggs?

Should I ask the herp-certified vet about that shot to stimulate egg-laying?

[NBLADE]

You can see the top of the paint bucket and Lea inside:

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr268/ChuWuti/IMG_8973.jpg

In the next photo, you can barely see Lea's eye. I think some of the soil has been disturbed; i.e., there seems to be a hump behind the Schefflera that wasn't there this morning when I left to get crickets. However, I can't really say for sure.

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr268/ChuWuti/IMG_8972.jpg

I wrapped an old shower curtain around the open walls of the tank after taking the photos in hopes she'll feel safer.

Her new big enclosure arrived this afternoon just before I got home again. Should we wait to move her until she has laid her eggs?

Should I ask the herp-certified vet about that shot to stimulate egg-laying?

Personally i'd say taking her to the vet to get a shot, is going to stress her even more, and likely be worse for her than doing anything good.

I would move her into her new viv, get it all set up with the right temperatures, give her a few laying sites, if you can have another tub in there with something like soil in, as i found some chams don't like to dig in sand and will only lay in soil, and others wont lay in soil and only in sand, can be a fussy bunch, but the new tank will have better temperatures, and will allow more room for her, the good thing is that whilst she is looking to lay, she would naturally explore new areas, so a new viv shouldn't cause her too much stress as she would be looking for a better lay site. If you can pre dig a little hole in the substrate for her, so that she can carry on from that sometimes helps, but then leave her to it in her new viv, and just spray to make sure she stays well hydrated, but try not to handle at all and disturb her too much, and she should lay soon.

[concinnusman]

All the handling, picture taking, and frequent checking isn't helping.:sorry:

[Chu'Wuti]

All the handling, picture taking, and frequent checking isn't helping

versus

move her into her new viv

The info is becoming contradictory. :confused:

1) She hasn't been handled at all since we moved the egg-laying bucket in on Wednesday. We quit giving her the calcium drops as recommended here.

2) I took the last set of pics when I fed & misted her, so hopefully that was less disruptive than multiple invasions.

3) Since taking the last set of pics, the only time I've even looked at her has been when I gave her crickets and/or misted her, i.e., morning, noon, night.

I would like to disturb her even less, but while she has a dripper system for water, she doesn't have an automatic mister, and we don't have the $$ to buy one yet. Considering that I had no intention of ever having a cham until one week ago when the family begged us to take her, and considering that I told them then I couldn't afford much more than new lights (I specified about $50), and considering that we have now spent over $200 on her in the past week and had to put it all on credit . . . :eek:

My feeling at this point is that waiting through the weekend before making any further changes so she can settle down might be a good plan. My DH has to build a base for the new screen enclosure before we can move her into it anyway. I'll nudge him to get that done this afternoon (he has work-related work to do this morning, and I have a street cleanup to do).

After the weekend, if she hasn't laid her eggs, I'm considering taking her to the vet . . . she definitely appears to be doing better, but the not laying worries me.

[NBLADE]

versus



The info is becoming contradictory. :confused:

1) She hasn't been handled at all since we moved the egg-laying bucket in on Wednesday. We quit giving her the calcium drops as recommended here.

2) I took the last set of pics when I fed & misted her, so hopefully that was less disruptive than multiple invasions.

3) Since taking the last set of pics, the only time I've even looked at her has been when I gave her crickets and/or misted her, i.e., morning, noon, night.

I would like to disturb her even less, but while she has a dripper system for water, she doesn't have an automatic mister, and we don't have the $$ to buy one yet. Considering that I had no intention of ever having a cham until one week ago when the family begged us to take her, and considering that I told them then I couldn't afford much more than new lights (I specified about $50), and considering that we have now spent over $200 on her in the past week and had to put it all on credit . . . :eek:

My feeling at this point is that waiting through the weekend before making any further changes so she can settle down might be a good plan. My DH has to build a base for the new screen enclosure before we can move her into it anyway. I'll nudge him to get that done this afternoon (he has work-related work to do this morning, and I have a street cleanup to do).

After the weekend, if she hasn't laid her eggs, I'm considering taking her to the vet . . . she definitely appears to be doing better, but the not laying worries me.

Problem is she has been moved to a new house, so that is going to cause stress. Then you are giving her a few days to adjust to this, and just as she is settling in, you are then going to be moving her again, which will start the stress process all over again, so it would be best to get it done as soon as possible, but if a base still has to be built, i'd try and get it done in the next day or so, so that she can be moved then left to settle, with no more disruptions or changes.

Taking her to the vets at the moment is likely to cause even more stress, when the eggs start pushing out the sides and you can actually see individual eggs then you should be concerned, for now i would leave her too it. Multiple laying sites, with the right temperatures, spray once in the morning, then once early evening, and put a few crickets in, not too many as her interest in food should be minimal, and crickets can disturb her if she is trying to lay.

[Chu'Wuti]

Problem is she has been moved to a new house, so that is going to cause stress. Then you are giving her a few days to adjust to this, and just as she is settling in, you are then going to be moving her again, which will start the stress process all over again, so it would be best to get it done as soon as possible

That does make a lot of sense. It'll be as if she never has a chance to get REALLY settled in.

However---she's digging! I just went up to mist her, and she was digging when I peeked over the top of the curtain around the tank, so I just backed out again without spraying her. Maybe she's digging test nest sites?

DH isn't home yet, but I'm going to give him a call to let him know we need to get that base built today. If she doesn't dig much more, I guess we'll aim to move her tomorrow.

[NBLADE]

That does make a lot of sense. It'll be as if she never has a chance to get REALLY settled in.

However---she's digging! I just went up to mist her, and she was digging when I peeked over the top of the curtain around the tank, so I just backed out again without spraying her. Maybe she's digging test nest sites?

DH isn't home yet, but I'm going to give him a call to let him know we need to get that base built today. If she doesn't dig much more, I guess we'll aim to move her tomorrow.

Ah if she is digging right now, leave her well alone, try not to make too much noise around her and don't worry about spraying or feeding, they often start digging in the early evening and then lay over night, so hopefully it will be tonight for you.

The important thing is, if she has laid by morning, a lot will be exhausted from the process, and get cold at the bottom of the viv away from the heat source, so once she has finished completely, you may have to lift her out and stick her up under the basking spot, and then give her a good spray down with warm water as she will likely want a long drink, then she will be able to warm up and get her activity levels back to normal.

[Chu'Wuti]

Crossing my fingers . . .

I would be greatly relieved, and so would her former family, if she did her job tonight!

[Chu'Wuti]

Lea is laying her eggs . . . on TOP of the soil. I walked in quietly to check on her this morning, and she was on top of one of the artificial vines going across the bucket. I thought she wasn't doing anything, so, as everything was dry, I decided to spray her. When I did, she moved off the vine--almost falling--and I could see two eggs on the surface of the soil behind her. :shocked:

I immediately closed the cage, recurtained her, and left, but I'm really concerned . . .

:O_o:

[NBLADE]

Lea is laying her eggs . . . on TOP of the soil. I walked in quietly to check on her this morning, and she was on top of one of the artificial vines going across the bucket. I thought she wasn't doing anything, so, as everything was dry, I decided to spray her. When I did, she moved off the vine--almost falling--and I could see two eggs on the surface of the soil behind her. :shocked:

I immediately closed the cage, recurtained her, and left, but I'm really concerned . . .

:O_o:

Hopefully the spraying didn't disturb her too much, has she finished laying them now?

It isn't that uncommon for females to drop the eggs just on the surface rather than actually take care of them and dig a suitable laying site, it generally happens with infertile eggs when females haven't been mated.

[Chu'Wuti]

Good to hear, but I'm still worried--she seems to have stopped laying . . . I am really, really torn between not disturbing her and disturbing her to try to figure out what is going on. If she hasn't laid more by 1:30 today (when I finish teaching), I am going to disturb her.

[NBLADE]

Good to hear, but I'm still worried--she seems to have stopped laying . . . I am really, really torn between not disturbing her and disturbing her to try to figure out what is going on. If she hasn't laid more by 1:30 today (when I finish teaching), I am going to disturb her.

The more you disturb her the less likely she is to finish laying and more likely to become egg bound, the spraying definitely wouldn't have helped, but accidents happen, best bet is to leave her until tomorrow, try to check on her as little as possible, don't worry about spraying yet, a day of lower humidity is not going to cause any issues, just leave her to feel secure enough to lay, will generally be towards the evening again then over night / early morning, so best bet is to wait until tomorrow before checking again.

[concinnusman]

This is encouraging. I'm just wondering if she was mated and if she wasn't then maybe there isn't a normal sized clutch. Not really sure about veiled chameleons but a quick google search says clutches are generally much larger that other chameleons. " large Veiled Chameleons (Chamaeleo calyptratus) have been known to lay clutches of 80–100 eggs. Clutch sizes can also vary greatly among the same species"

Is there any way to peek in and see her without disturbing? I'd say if there's still any digging activity then that's good.

The lizards I've bred also tend to start digging in evening and lay overnight. They also dig at multiple sites, often abandoning one site and starting a new one. This can go on all night or several nights in a row but usually stops during the day and they resume at night again. It's very exhausting work. However, I've never had them stop laying once they start. They're usually done within an hour or so once they start laying. If you see her trying to cover the eggs (raking dirt over them) then that would be your clue that she's done.

Do they look fertile? You can usually tell just by looking at them. Infertile eggs will be misshaped and / or discolored while fertile eggs are generally smooth and uniformly white. If they look fertile, whatever you do, when it comes time to move them you have to be very careful to keep them in the same orientation. Keep them same side up as you found them. You might want to go pickup some sterile vermiculite (at garden supply) washed sand, or other appropriate reptile egg substrate that holds moisture and isn't prone to molding.

I've used washed white sand and vermiculite or a mixture of both. They both worked well together or by themselves.

I know we said to disturb her as little as possible but if those eggs are fertile, you don't want them to dry out while you're waiting. Wrinkling is a good indicator that they need some moisture/misting.

[NBLADE]

This is encouraging. I'm just wondering if she was mated and if she wasn't then maybe there isn't a normal sized clutch. Not really sure about veiled chameleons but a quick google search says clutches are generally much larger that other chameleons. " large Veiled Chameleons (Chamaeleo calyptratus) have been known to lay clutches of 80–100 eggs. Clutch sizes can also vary greatly among the same species"

Is there any way to peek in and see her without disturbing? I'd say if there's still any digging activity then that's good.

The lizards I've bred also tend to start digging in evening and lay overnight. They also dig at multiple sites, often abandoning one site and starting a new one. This can go on all night or several nights in a row but usually stops during the day and they resume at night again. It's very exhausting work. However, I've never had them stop laying once they start. They're usually done within an hour or so once they start laying. If you see her trying to cover the eggs (raking dirt over them) then that would be your clue that she's done.

Do they look fertile? You can usually tell just by looking at them. Infertile eggs will be misshaped and / or discolored while fertile eggs are generally smooth and uniformly white. If they look fertile, whatever you do, when it comes time to move them you have to be very careful to keep them in the same orientation. Keep them same side up as you found them. You might want to go pickup some sterile vermiculite (at garden supply) washed sand, or other appropriate reptile egg substrate that holds moisture and isn't prone to molding.

I've used washed white sand and vermiculite or a mixture of both. They both worked well together or by themselves.

I know we said to disturb her as little as possible but if those eggs are fertile, you don't want them to dry out while you're waiting. Wrinkling is a good indicator that they need some moisture/misting.

my clutches from veileds averaged at around 85 eggs, with 102 being my largest clutch, my smallest clutch was from a pied female that only gave me 34. If she is just dropping the eggs and not actually laying them properly, i'd say these would be the infertile ones if she was mated at all, as they tend to pop out the slugs first.

[concinnusman]

my clutches from veileds averaged at around 85 eggs, with 102 being my largest clutch, my smallest clutch was from a pied female that only gave me 34.

Holy crud! That's a lot of eggs. :Wow:

[Chu'Wuti]

The more you disturb her the less likely she is to finish laying and more likely to become egg bound, the spraying definitely wouldn't have helped, but accidents happen, best bet is to leave her until tomorrow, try to check on her as little as possible, don't worry about spraying yet, a day of lower humidity is not going to cause any issues, just leave her to feel secure enough to lay, will generally be towards the evening again then over night / early morning, so best bet is to wait until tomorrow before checking again.

I do understand, and I would have avoided disturbing her again had I not STRONGLY felt something was not right with her. Let me update you with today's news:

Turns out Lea quit laying because she prolapsed her rectum during laying. I found her lying on the sand this a.m. with no new eggs visible, so I picked her up to check on her; that's when I found she had the prolapse. After researching this condition, I realized that even if the prolapse could be shrunk, she would be unable to lay her eggs without it recurring unless the eggs were surgically removed, which is an expense I cannot afford. Hence, I made the painful decision to have her put down.

I tried to call my own vet, but their line was busy, so I called another vet I know here locally and asked if she felt able to put Lea down. The answer was yes, so, I did not try calling the herp-certified vet in Oklahoma City--that's around an hour drive or more for me, and as I was planning only to have her put to sleep, I didn't feel taking her to a herp vet was necessary if a local vet could do it.

It may be fortunate for Lea that I did it this way! The vet to whom I took her is my husband's research partner's wife, widow, actually (he died just after Christmas, and we've helped the family a lot), and she has decided to try to save Lea. I told her we cannot afford the surgery, but she insisted that she wants to do it and won't charge, so she will be operating today. She does a lot of exotics and feels she can do it.

She also took an X-ray and we could NOT EVEN SEE THE BONES IN LEA'S LEGS--that's strong evidence of MBD. IF Lea survives today's surgery, then she's very lucky not to have the deformities from far worse MBD, and we'll be able to help her with her calcium levels.

The real question is whether Lea is strong enough to survive the surgery.

Contrary to what the other exotic animal vet said, Lea is NOT overweight; indeed, she is UNDERWEIGHT. I realized yesterday that I could see her ribs as she was turning away from me in the evening, which had me wondering about the "overweight" diagnosis, and Kerry (our friend/vet) agreed--Lea has NO fat reserves at all. So we don't know if she'll survive the surgery, but as Kerry pointed out, once she is anesthetized, she will be feeling no pain, and if it doesn't go well, they will give her a deeper dose then to humanely end her life.

Think good thoughts for Lea; I'm much more hopeful now than I was earlier this morning!!!

[Chu'Wuti]

Kerry just called. Lea actually was able to pass an egg before they were able to do the surgery, so they have given her water/dextrose water and are going to hold her for observation to see if she might be able to lay the rest by herself tonight without surgery. Then they can repair the prolapse. Keeping my fingers crossed!

[snakekid6996]

Is she ok now?

[NBLADE]

Is she ok now?

I was wondering this.

[Chu'Wuti]

That's a good question . . . and the answer is, I don't really think so. So--last week, Lea spent most of the week at the vet. Wednesday night and Thursday through the day & night she laid 34 eggs, to bring her total to 39. Thursday my son was able to get her to eat one cricket, and the vet's staff got her to eat one mealworm. Friday they got her to eat another cricket. Friday afternoon, she pooped a mostly undigested cricket. :eek:

We brought her home from the vet for the weekend because there wouldn't be anyone there to spray her often enough. She hasn't laid any more eggs, and I haven't been able to get her to eat anything, so I've been force-feeding her bug juice (Ensure + Pedialyte 1:1 plus crickets blended). She's not happy with that . . . but I don't know what else to do at this point. She's still prolapsed, and it's drying out despite our efforts to keep it moist . . .

All in all, it doesn't look good for Lea.

I really hate it when I can't save an animal . . .

[snakekid6996]

I'm sorry to hear that :(, but at least You did everything You could to try to save her. I wish You luck.

[concinnusman]

It's sad really. There's plenty of information out there about proper nutrition and prevention of calcium deficiency in female chameleons. Apparently the bone/nutritional problems which usually result in egg binding are common preventable issues with these. In other words, basic husbandry was not followed. By the time you got her, it was a bit late to correct that.

[Chu'Wuti]

Yesterday when I force-fed Lea some bug juice, she wasn't very responsive, but this morning she gulped down about 1 ml--kept opening her mouth and swallowing! That made me feel somewhat more hopeful except for the fact that she still hadn't laid any more eggs and we knew there were more, and the prolapse was looking worse, too. DH and I took her back to the vet before noon. Midday they tried again on the force-feeding, and she refused, and she was looking so thin and tired we were all really worried. My vet friend tried helping her lay more eggs with gentle manipulation (which had worked last week) and gave her a calcium injection.

However, this afternoon Lea died. Kerry did an autopsy and found Lea had 23 more eggs in her little body. Kerry said, "You would not believe how thin she was after the eggs were taken out--she was absolutely emaciated, and her bones are really soft." I asked whether I could have done anything differently to have helped her and she said, "No, you couldn't have done anything in two weeks time--this was the result of long-term bad husbandry. If she hadn't been egg bound, you might have been able to save her from the poor diet, but I don't think so."

So there we are, at the end of our less than two weeks with Lea the chameleon. I wish we could have saved her . . .

I really appreciate all the help from everyone here. DH and I think that sometime in the future we will get a chameleon of our own, perhaps a male (avoid problems with egg binding!) Jackson's, as my DH really likes the way they look with their horns. After all, we now have a big enclosure for a chameleon and have set up in a nice spot where we can keep the humidity up, provide sunshine (without overheating), have lots of plants . . . but for now we are pretty sad about Lea, as she really grabbed our hearts in the short time she spent with us.

Thank you all again!!! It's always so good to know that this forum is filled with truly caring people!

Sandy

[Lankyrob]

Sorry for your loss :(

[sws]

sorry for what happened and i am glad to see people who do so much for their pets.

[Chu'Wuti]

Well, we definitely did try. It makes me so angry when people don't learn enough to take care of their animals correctly. Nearly every rescue I have had has been impacted by human ignorance (at the least; one turtle was injured through sheer meanness). A few birds and squirrels suffered from natural ailments/injuries. But every animal pet that I've lost was in bad shape because previous owners used really bad husbandry or just plain neglected them.

:pissedoff:

Why don't people take the time to do some research before taking on the responsibility for an animal's LIFE? These people said they did ("We did three years of research before we got her!" but I really, really doubt it. In fact, I just plain don't believe it. I think they read one old book that said that glass tanks were fine for chams and they asked questions at the pet store where they got her and trusted that everything they were told was accurate and true. She didn't keel over immediately, so they felt sure they were doing everything right and never did any more research. Even when they discovered that "Leo" was female because she began laying eggs, they didn't do the research needed to help her lay her eggs properly or help her recuperate from the demands of egg-laying on her body . . .

Oh, enough already. I'll shut up! See you another day when I'm over it more . . .

[Chu'Wuti]

Hi, all,

If any of you are still following this thread, or for anyone in the future who might be inspired to learn more about egg binding and its association with calcium deficiency, here is what the other exotic animal vet at my friend's clinic told me today (Kerry had already left when I went to pick up my equipment, so the other vet came out to talk with me).

When they opened Lea up to see why she hadn't laid the rest of her eggs, they found two problems:

1) her uterus, which should be a reasonably thick, muscular sheet of tissue so that it can push eggs out, was extremely thin and nearly transparent, indicative of the weeks or months of deficient nutrition to which Lea was subjected.

2) her remaining eggs' shells were not fully calcified, and so, rather than being smooth and simply lying loosely inside the uterus, the eggs were literally STUCK TO the uterus. There wasn't enough shell to separate the eggs from the uterine wall.

As a result of the two conditions, Lea literally was incapable of laying all of her eggs.

The vet said she had been underfed/neglected for a long time, and that it was simply impossible to improve her condition quickly enough to save her.

The only good things to come out of this for me are 1) that I have a new relationship with local vets whom I feel I can have confidence in for herp health issues, and 2) my DH & I have learned a lot about chameleons--though we're fully aware that we don't know everything by any means!! What we have learned, though, makes us feel that someday we will get a chameleon (or a few). After all, now we have some of the appropriate equipment! We also got plants, so we'll go ahead and set things up so we can ensure that humidity, lighting, and temps are appropriate before we get one.

Thanks again to everyone for the support and encouragement you offered.

Sandy