Bearded dragon venom, illegal collection from wild

[bronxzoofrank]

Bearded dragons produce a mild venom, & all in the pet trade may have originated as illegally-collected animals! Bearded Dragon Species Profile (http://bit.ly/WP2Irc)

[murrindindi]

Bearded dragons produce a mild venom, & all in the pet trade may have originated as illegally-collected animals! Bearded Dragon Species Profile (http://bit.ly/WP2Irc)


Hi, I agree with some of the careguide, though there are some things that need clarification, and I hope you can do that (specifically the basking spot temps and enclosure size).
You don`t say whether the basking spot temp @ 100 to 120f is surface or ambient, neither do you suggest a minimum ambient temp which is vital, as they must be able to cool down at times.
You advise the hatchlings can be housed in a 10 gallon tank, in my opinion it would be quite difficult to achieve a suitable temp gradient in something so small.
It`s also stated that they are not related to Beaded and Varanid lizards when in fact the Iguanids (Agamidae) are quite closely related.

[bronxzoofrank]

Hello,

Air temps of 100-120 F below basking site work well. Ambient at 82-85; If enclosure is large enough, cooler areas (to 75 or so) may be established; night temps into the 60's are used successfully by some, but not required. A 20 gal or larger tank would be ideal for hatchlings, but many are successfully raised in smaller quarters; basking temps of 95F are commonly used.

All lizards are of course to some degree related, thanks for noticing that; the 3 families mentioned are grouped within a single order; "close" is relative, as the major lizard families appeared to have diverged many millions of years ago (Triassic-Jurrasic) This abstract (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111906006160) and some of the articles cited therein can provide you with a better understanding of the timelines etc. than can I.

Best, Frank

[murrindindi]

Hi again, thanks for the clarification. I think that if the ambient (air) temps are up to 120f the small size of a 10 or 20 gallon tank will mean there would be no sufficiently cool areas, therefore the possibily of overheating could cause serious problems.
In my opinion only two temps are important, whatever the size of enclosure; (daytime) the coolest ambient @ approx 24c (75f) then the surface temp at the basking site @ between 40 to 45c+ (100 to 110f+). That range would allow the dragon to function optimally. During the nighttime I personally wouldn`t go below 19c (68f), though they experience lower in the wild.
As far as the relationships of the different familes are concerned, it matters not how long ago they diverged, the Iguanids are now thought to be closely related to the Varanids and Heloderms (plus snakes).

[bronxzoofrank]

I'm not a taxonomist,..."what matters" is quite a complicated subject as far as I know; Someone at the herpetology dept. at the Am Museum of Nat History should be able to help you with any questions or comment more appropriately on your opinions.

[Pirarucu]

Hi again, thanks for the clarification. I think that if the ambient (air) temps are up to 120f the small size of a 10 or 20 gallon tank will mean there would be no sufficiently cool areas, therefore the possibily of overheating could cause serious problems.
In my opinion only two temps are important, whatever the size of enclosure; (daytime) the coolest ambient @ approx 24c (75f) then the surface temp at the basking site @ between 40 to 45c+ (100 to 110f+). That range would allow the dragon to function optimally. During the nighttime I personally wouldn`t go below 19c (68f), though they experience lower in the wild.
As far as the relationships of the different familes are concerned, it matters not how long ago they diverged, the Iguanids are now thought to be closely related to the Varanids and Heloderms (plus snakes).Just to add, I know of beardies being kept with and utilizing Varanid temperatures.

[murrindindi]

Just to add, I know of beardies being kept with and utilizing Varanid temperatures.


Hi, so do I, they seem to work quite well, but not in 10 gallon fish tanks!

[dinosaurdammit]

Hi, so do I, they seem to work quite well, but not in 10 gallon fish tanks!

Nothing that is a reptile belongs in a 10 gallon fish tank. 10 gallon fish tanks are for fish... and not many at that.

[murrindindi]

I'm not a taxonomist,..."what matters" is quite a complicated subject as far as I know; Someone at the herpetology dept. at the Am Museum of Nat History should be able to help you with any questions or comment more appropriately on your opinions.


My "opinions" are based on recent research and the published results.
I most respectfully suggest you contact them and update the information in your caresheet.

[Pirarucu]

Hi, so do I, they seem to work quite well, but not in 10 gallon fish tanks!Nothing works well in 10 gallon fish tanks. LOL.

[bronxzoofrank]

My "opinions" are based on recent research and the published results.
I most respectfully suggest you contact them and update the information in your caresheet.

Again, "related", "closely related etc" are not matters that I can debate without expert opinion, which I am not about to solicit at this point..apologies if you are such an expert. No need to forward anything further re taxonomy, thank you, I have access to appropriate people if needed.

[infernalis]

I have access to appropriate people if needed.

Frank, Why must you (seem as if) you assume that this forum is populated by people who do no research?

"Access to appropriate people sounds" rather condescending to me, we have many very well educated people here, Professors, biologists, zoologists and accredited scientists, That comment gives the feel that the members of this community are somehow below you and not worthy of an opinion if it does not fall in line with your own.

If you are going to stubbornly refuse to accept criticisms, I would respectfully ask that you seek publicity for your blogs elsewhere.

[murrindindi]

[QUOTE=murrindindi;815769]My "opinions" are based on recent research and the published results.
I most respectfully suggest you contact them and update the information in your caresheet.[/QUOT

Again, "related", "closely related etc" are not matters that I can debate without expert opinion, which I am not about to solicit at this point..apologies if you are such an expert. No need to forward anything further re taxonomy, thank you, I have access to appropriate people if needed.


We don`t appear to be getting anywhere fast, and I`m getting the impresssion you have no intention of changing the info you offer in the careguide which is a great shame, because it needs clarifying (unless I`m misunderstanding your responses)?
Learning is about questions that can be answered, not answers that can`t be questioned. As more information becomes available husbandry methods change, the improvements are there for all to see. The results are in, you just need to look!

[bronxzoofrank]

Frank, Why must you (seem as if) you assume that this forum is populated by people who do no research?

"Access to appropriate people sounds" rather condescending to me, we have many very well educated people here, Professors, biologists, zoologists and accredited scientists, That comment gives the feel that the members of this community are somehow below you and not worthy of an opinion if it does not fall in line with your own.

If you are going to stubbornly refuse to accept criticisms, I would respectfully ask that you seek publicity for your blogs elsewhere.

I do have access to such people, and suggested a source to poster, who did not mention his/her affiliations or whether he/she had such people to contact. I stated that I was not an expert in taxonomy, and, judging from the posted comments, did not imagine that the poster was either, but apologized in advance if s/he was. I've no desire to deal with the defensiveness shown here, i.e. -assuming above to be condescending, the nasty tone of many comments, and especially the quick and frequent resorting of some to personal characterizations (i.e. stubborn) (something I've not encountered elsewhere). You can leave or delete posts as you or whomever sees fit.

[infernalis]

Citation of sources is standard practices Frank, care to cite your sources?

It seems a pity that peer reviewing is not accepted, or at least challenged seemingly every time rather than accepted with grace.

As you may or may not be aware, I publish care guides myself, and when my peers find an error or misconception, omission or even a grammatical error, I accept said criticisms, and make changes as needed.

I have been following your posting on here closely, and I get the feel that you (apparently) are unwilling to accept such criticisms without aggressive rebuttal, Such rebuttal would be solidified by citation of sources.

[murrindindi]

I do have access to such people, and suggested a source to poster, who did not mention his/her affiliations or whether he/she had such people to contact. I stated that I was not an expert in taxonomy, and, judging from the posted comments, did not imagine that the poster was either, but apologized in advance if s/he was. I've no desire to deal with the defensiveness shown here, i.e. -assuming above to be condescending, the nasty tone of many comments, and especially the quick and frequent resorting of some to personal characterizations (i.e. stubborn) (something I've not encountered elsewhere). You can leave or delete posts as you or whomever sees fit.


You are the one offering careguides which contain inaccurate information.
No, I`m not an "expert" on taxonomy, but I have at least done some research on the subject recently, clearly you have not.

[bronxzoofrank]

Citation of sources is standard practices Frank, care to cite your sources?

It seems a pity that peer reviewing is not accepted, or at least challenged seemingly every time rather than accepted with grace.

As you may or may not be aware, I publish care guides myself, and when my peers find an error or misconception, omission or even a grammatical error, I accept said criticisms, and make changes as needed.

I have been following your posting on here closely, and I get the feel that you (apparently) are unwilling to accept such criticisms without aggressive rebuttal, Such rebuttal would be solidified by citation of sources.

I cite when appropriate, have written 5 books and many peer-reviewed articles and am well able to discern when such is necessary; I see no need to cite here, where I did see a need I posted a note that I would get back to folks if I was able. Otherwise folks can accept or reject, post opinions, ask ques, etc. Aggression is an odd word to use, all things considered...I've experienced similar attitudes when posting on this site in the venomous forum..not from everyone, by any means, but enough that I had to rely on moderators to delete posts, explain over and over the reasons that venomous snakes do not belong in private collections, etc...in any event, i have neither the time nor patience for this sort of exchange, or similar, and will not be participating further.

[KORBIN5895]

I cite when appropriate, have written 5 books and many peer-reviewed articles and am well able to discern when such is necessary; I see no need to cite here, where I did see a need I posted a note that I would get back to folks if I was able. Otherwise folks can accept or reject, post opinions, ask ques, etc. Aggression is an odd word to use, all things considered...I've experienced similar attitudes when posting on this site in the venomous forum..not from everyone, by any means, but enough that I had to rely on moderators to delete posts, explain over and over the reasons that venomous snakes do not belong in private collections, etc...in any event, i have neither the time nor patience for this sort of exchange, or similar, and will not be participating further.

May I ask the subject matter of your books?

[infernalis]

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[infernalis]

I cite when appropriate, have written 5 books and many peer-reviewed articles and am well able to discern when such is necessary;.

This once again sounds condescending, I would like to point out that several of the people who have challenged your views are also accomplished authors, who have published books that are pertinent to the subject matter being questioned.

[Donnie]

It's a shame Frank won't be posting again as I am sure he has still got lots of great information to pass onto people. It is a bigger shame that he was unable to listen to advice passed to him and try and learn himself.

[TheSnakeChild]

It's a shame Frank won't be posting again as I am sure he has still got lots of great information to pass onto people. It is a bigger shame that he was unable to listen to advice passed to him and try and learn himself.
some people are like that sadly, they think they know everything, and hate being told they're wrong, I'm not calling him an egotistical guy, but...seriously, if you're going to be on a snake forum you should expect people to tell you stuff you may not know or may have heard differently, but it doesn't mean you should go: NO YOU'RE WRONG CUZ I WROTE BOOKS AND blah blah, if you bother posting at all on a forum...you really should expect to get some criticisms and different opinions, heck...that's the way life works in general, we're human, we learn new information every day, and when it comes to our reptile friends and how to care for them, we should accept that we don't always share the same methods or opinions on how to provide husbandry, and should be open to ideas for the good of our scaley friends' health and lives.