Monitor Care & Natural History; Zoo & Pet Experiences

[bronxzoofrank]

Hi All,
I’ve had the good fortune of caring for 15-20 monitor species during my zoo career. From the diminutive Storr’s to the massive Water, Lace, Crocodile and Komodo Monitors, all have instilled in me the feeling that they were, somehow, “more complicated” than other reptiles. Indeed, recent studies have confirmed that they are, among lizards, highly advanced. While some are too large for the average household, several moderately-sized and even dwarf varieties are being bred by hobbyists, and all make fascinating and responsive captives.
The following information can be applied to the care of Savannah, Black Tree, Nile, Merten’s and most other monitors.
Read article here ************

Thanks, Frank

[crocdoc]

May I make a recommendation? I had a quick skim through your monitor care article (will read in more detail when I get more time) and noticed that you're recommending a basking spot of 90-95F. That's way too cold for a monitor.

Their preferred core body temperature usually exceeds that, so with that basking temperature they'd never be able to reach optimum temperature. It's best to have the basking spot a fair why hotter than their preferred body temperature, so they can achieve it quickly. A basking temperature of at least 120-130F is recommended for most species, some much hotter than that.

[bronxzoofrank]

May I make a recommendation? I had a quick skim through your monitor care article (will read in more detail when I get more time) and noticed that you're recommending a basking spot of 90-95F. That's way too cold for a monitor.

Their preferred core body temperature usually exceeds that, so with that basking temperature they'd never be able to reach optimum temperature. It's best to have the basking spot a fair why hotter than their preferred body temperature, so they can achieve it quickly. A basking temperature of at least 120-130F is recommended for most species, some much hotter than that.

Hi,

Thanks for your input; we've done very well with those temperatures for a wide variety of species at the Bronx Zoo; colleagues elsewhere have done so also. Individual species vary in their needs, as mentioned. Basking animals are able to reach appropriate temps, and time spent under light has not been a problem (although I imagine this can be a concern in some situations). Best, Frank

[crocdoc]

we've done very well with those temperatures for a wide variety of species at the Bronx Zoo;

I beg to differ (as a frequent visitor to the Bronx), but I'm going to be polite and bite my tongue/sit on my typing hands.

Best

[infernalis]

I beg to differ (as a frequent visitor to the Bronx), but I'm going to be polite and bite my tongue/sit on my typing hands.

Best

Please don't be quiet David...

[Toothless]

I just read the article, and it does contain alot of very useful information.
However, I would like to see what everyone's opinions are on the recommendations of sand/ cypress bedding, the basking temp range, and the low humidity for savannah monitors. These points seem to go against everything I've read about their care. Do you mind stating how long each monitor has lived for (or how old they are now), and what their set-up consisted of? I'm just a touch curious :).
Other than that, I thought the article was pretty good :).

[bronxzoofrank]

I beg to differ (as a frequent visitor to the Bronx), but I'm going to be polite and bite my tongue/sit on my typing hands.

Best

Hello,

Thanks for the note. Certainly higher temps can be used as well; in my 21 years working there, we did had problems with monitors and a variety of species kept in huge exhibits that could not be heated properly (i.e. JungleWorld, in mid '80's), or where shy/stressed individuals did not use basking sites for a sufficient length of time. Best, Frank

[infernalis]

I am going to state my observations.

My first Bosc monitor was kept under similar conditions as you publish in that blog and he was under metabolised, his organs failed, he was in far from ideal shape, he became one of those lethargic blobs that barely resemble a wild specimen. He lived five years.

I have since tried again, with a big difference. I operate my cage with the coldest spot being deep down under the soil at approximately 75 degrees, the dirt averages 80 degrees mid depth, the ambient air inside the cage ranges from 80+ up to just over 100 degrees.

With current basking temperatures approaching 150 degrees (F) I have raised 2 Bosc Monitors that have a body shape identical to wild specimens.

Housing any Varanid in a fish tank is not something I would encourage, we simply cannot create the proper tropical conditions that these animals need with a common aquarium.

[crocdoc]

I can recall seeing your previous pair of lace monitors before they died and they were suffering from assorted metabolic issues, such as gout, related to insufficient heat. They weren't that old.

The newer ones aren't that old, either (I saw them as juveniles right before they were shipped over there, when they were off display at the zoo here in Sydney), but are heading in the same direction for the same reason. I entered the enclosure with the keepers to check it out.

I do recall a large Varanus salvator you had in Jungle World (I have photographs of it somewhere). It would definitely have been difficult getting a basking spot onto those displays.

[infernalis]

I just read the article, and it does contain alot of very useful information.
However, I would like to see what everyone's opinions are on the recommendations of sand/ cypress bedding, the basking temp range, and the low humidity for savannah monitors. These points seem to go against everything I've read about their care. Do you mind stating how long each monitor has lived for (or how old they are now), and what their set-up consisted of? I'm just a touch curious :).
Other than that, I thought the article was pretty good :).

History has proven those conditions as less than ideal for long term health.

[AjaMichelle]

Thanks for not staying quiet David! :)

[_Varanidae_]

Greetings,

Highly relevant to this discussion, here are some direct quotes from a recent study that looked specifically at mortality in monitor lizards at the Bronx Zoo:

Out of 85 animals analyzed:

"Gout was responsible for nine deaths and was considered a significant secondary complication in an additional seven, bringing the total incidence of gout to 18.8%."Given the history of poor supportive husbandry regarding the thermal demands of varanids discussed earlier, inadequate basking temperatures could play an important contributing role in the development of gout. Providing captives with appropriate thermal gradients and access to surface basking temperatures in excess of 45◦C may reduce occurrences of gout.The quote "discussed earlier":

"Recent advancements in husbandry have shown that varanids require surface basking temperatures in excess of 45◦C, with some species regularly seeking out and basking at surface temperatures exceeding 60◦C in captivity [Husband and Bonnett, 2009; Lemm, 1999; Retes and Bennett, 2001]. Zoo exhibits, particularly those on public display, may not provide sufficient basking temperatures since lighting and heating fixtures are usually placed out of public view, often at considerable distances from the nearest basking area..."

[bodiddleyitis]

The biggest breakthroughs in monitor lizard husbandry in the last quarter century have been the recognition that access to high basking temperatures and increased humidity are necessary to allow the animals to metabolise freely. As far as I am aware this is true for all species. It's disappointing to read that savannah monitors "develop health problems in damp enclosures" when all the available evidence suggests that most die because they are kept much too dry.

[infernalis]

It's disappointing to read that savannah monitors "develop health problems in damp enclosures" when all the available evidence suggests that most die because they are kept much too dry.

With that in mind, My two Boscs freely chose to spend time down inside burrows that I have measured humidity reading nearing 100%

With a wide range of humidity and temperatures made available to them, these animals seek out very hot and very humid locations within the enclosure completely on their own.

[varanus_mad]

I have no idea how at this pointt in time thete are still zoos using and recommending husbandry that kills varanids.

If you doubt the above posts you should try there recommendations?

You will be impressed with the differences in behaviour.

[_Varanidae_]

For those interested in learning more about the study, here is a link to the article's abstract:

A Retrospective Study of Mortality in Varanid Lizards (Reptilia:Squamata:Varanidae) at the Bronx Zoo: Implications for Husbandry and Reproductive Management in Zoos - Mendyk - 2012 - Zoo Biology - Wiley Online Library (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/zoo.21043/abstract?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false)

If you message/e-mail me, I will gladly send you a pdf of our study. While it is aimed specifically at zoo husbandry- in an effort to break the "well, this is what we've always done" keeping mentality present in many zoo herpetology departments, all of the information presented and discussed is relevant to private collections as well. I feel that the results of this study are well-representative of zoo varanid husbandry as a whole, which, with the exception of a few zoos, is largely inadequate by today's standards.

Another problem that I have noticed among the zoo sector (and this also goes for the majority of private keepers as well), is that there is little familiarity with current literature on the biology and husbandry of varanid lizards. Case in point, the most recent AZA Asian Forest Monitor Studbook (published in 2010) contains taxon management accounts (i.e. recommendations for care and breeding) that were compiled in 1996! Zoos using these accounts as guidelines for their own husbandry are conceivably employing husbandry and breeding methods that are nearly 20 years old, and missing out on a wealth of information generated in only the last 10 or 15 years...

[jarich]

Hahahaha, looks like Wayne has been busy. Or is it just coincidence that the 'big guns' were all lurking here yesterday? I dont think we've ever had a thread with so many accredited titles and letters after the names as this one. Welcome back to all three of you and thanks for your responses.

[dinosaurdammit]

i feel so sorry for monitors in captivity, zoos seem to be the biggest offenders- too stubborn to change their way of keeping because they have been doing it that way for as long as time even though the monitors languish and then die, they just get new ones.

[bronxzoofrank]

The biggest breakthroughs in monitor lizard husbandry in the last quarter century have been the recognition that access to high basking temperatures and increased humidity are necessary to allow the animals to metabolise freely. As far as I am aware this is true for all species. It's disappointing to read that savannah monitors "develop health problems in damp enclosures" when all the available evidence suggests that most die because they are kept much too dry.

Hello,

Many species native to arid habitats spend a good deal of time in humid burrows, i,e the gila monster. I'm not aware, in any of the zoos with which I've been associated, of savannah monitors dying as a result of being kept in dry conditions, as is typical, Access to a water bowl large enough for soaking was always provided. Best, Frank

[infernalis]

Hello,

Many species native to arid habitats spend a good deal of time in humid burrows, i,e the gila monster. I'm not aware, in any of the zoos with which I've been associated, of savannah monitors dying as a result of being kept in dry conditions, as is typical, Access to a water bowl large enough for soaking was always provided. Best, Frank

No offense Frank, My Savannah Monitors have never once drank, soaked or defecated in their water source.

My animals glean their necessary moisture from their prey, and conserve it by breathing humid air and retreating into their burrows.

[bronxzoofrank]

For those interested in learning more about the study, here is a link to the article's abstract:

A Retrospective Study of Mortality in Varanid Lizards (Reptilia:Squamata:Varanidae) at the Bronx Zoo: Implications for Husbandry and Reproductive Management in Zoos - Mendyk - 2012 - Zoo Biology - Wiley Online Library (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/zoo.21043/abstract?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false)

If you message/e-mail me, I will gladly send you a pdf of our study. While it is aimed specifically at zoo husbandry- in an effort to break the "well, this is what we've always done" keeping mentality present in many zoo herpetology departments, all of the information presented and discussed is relevant to private collections as well. I feel that the results of this study are well-representative of zoo varanid husbandry as a whole, which, with the exception of a few zoos, is largely inadequate by today's standards.

Another problem that I have noticed among the zoo sector (and this also goes for the majority of private keepers as well), is that there is little familiarity with current literature on the biology and husbandry of varanid lizards. Case in point, the most recent AZA Asian Forest Monitor Studbook (published in 2010) contains taxon management accounts (i.e. recommendations for care and breeding) that were compiled in 1996! Zoos using these accounts as guidelines for their own husbandry are conceivably employing husbandry and breeding methods that are nearly 20 years old, and missing out on a wealth of information generated in only the last 10 or 15 years...

My experience has not been as you describe, re zoos in general; thanks for article note, I'll send a private message with email,

[murrindindi]

Hello,

Many species native to arid habitats spend a good deal of time in humid burrows, i,e the gila monster. I'm not aware, in any of the zoos with which I've been associated, of savannah monitors dying as a result of being kept in dry conditions, as is typical, Access to a water bowl large enough for soaking was always provided. Best, Frank


Hi,
I`d like to ask you how old the oldest Savannah monitors were at death, the results of the post mortems if those were carried out, and how many times the species was bred at the zoo, if at all?
By the way, I used to be in contact with Dr. Sam Lee, I know he donated his Ornate and Mertens monitors to the zoo when the females became gravid, are any of the original pairs still alive, and have they or their offspring reproduced since then?
He was kind enough to send me the paper on reproduction (I`m not sure if it was ever published), I`m aware he left a few years ago to pursue a different (more lucrative) career, have you heard from him recently?
Thanks!

[bronxzoofrank]

No offense Frank, My Savannah Monitors have never once drank, soaked or defecated in their water source.

My animals glean their necessary moisture from their prey, and conserve it by breathing humid air and retreating into their burrows.

Thank you; That has not been my experience.

[bronxzoofrank]

Hi all,

I've worked in and with zoos on 4 continents; while there are and will always be problems, exceptions to the rule, etc., my experience is not in line with the generalized criticisms expressed earlier, at least as regards well-funded institutions in the USA, Europe and Japan. Again, there are a number of ways to go about providing proper care, and it is very helpful to have various opinions and experiences posted. Best, Frank

[Lankyrob]

Hi,
I`d like to ask you how old the oldest Savannah monitors were at death, the results of the post mortems if those were carried out, and how many times the species was bred at the zoo, if at all?
By the way, I used to be in contact with Dr. Sam Lee, I know he donated his Ornate and Mertens monitors to the zoo when the females became gravid, are any of the original pairs still alive, and have they or their offspring reproduced since then?
He was kind enough to send me the paper on reproduction (I`m not sure if it was ever published), I`m aware he left a few years ago to pursue a different (more lucrative) career, have you heard from him recently?
Thanks!

I would love to hear the response to this...........

[varanus_mad]

Frank why is the article so sketchy in terms of breeding details?

[bronxzoofrank]

Frank why is the article so sketchy in terms of breeding details? .


Article is not meant to detail monitor breeding; thank you

[bronxzoofrank]

Hi,
I`d like to ask you how old the oldest Savannah monitors were at death, the results of the post mortems if those were carried out, and how many times the species was bred at the zoo, if at all?
By the way, I used to be in contact with Dr. Sam Lee, I know he donated his Ornate and Mertens monitors to the zoo when the females became gravid, are any of the original pairs still alive, and have they or their offspring reproduced since then?
He was kind enough to send me the paper on reproduction (I`m not sure if it was ever published), I`m aware he left a few years ago to pursue a different (more lucrative) career, have you heard from him recently?
Thanks!


Hello,

All animals are subject to autopsy upon death; I do not have the other info you mention; I worked with Sam Lee briefly, when he first began zoo work, but am not in touch with him.

[bronxzoofrank]

Hi All,

I'm buried in work, cannot give this topic the attention it deserves right now, and am starting to see personal criticisms which I will not address in any event. Please continue to post your thoughts, I'll check in but will refrain from further comments until I have a chance to look into some of the points readers have made a bit further; Best, Frank

[murrindindi]

Hello,

All animals are subject to autopsy upon death; I do not have the other info you mention; I worked with Sam Lee briefly, when he first began zoo work, but am not in touch with him.


Hi again, thanks for the reply, I guess the best thing would be to contact the WCS and ask if they`d give the info on causes of death and further breeding (easily done).

In terms of the captive conditions you describe, were you merely stating what they were (are?), and did you have input in them yourself, and are you still involved, if so, would you be prepared to advise making changes in view of the responses and concerns expressed here so far, or are you satisfied the conditions are/were more than adequate? I personally don`t think "adequate" is good enough, it must be the best possible.

It can only help the hobby when experienced keepers like yourself offer details of their work/methods, and I thank you for doing that. I actuallly joined this website specifically to learn more about the work you`ve been involved in, and take part in the discussions with you.

[_Varanidae_]

Murrindindi,

The scientific study linked to on the first page of this thread answers many of the questions you are asking. It reports the cause of death for 85 monitor lizards kept by the Bronx Zoo over the past four decades, even breaking the data down by species- and discusses the data's implications for husbandry and reproductive management.

[murrindindi]

Murrindindi,

The scientific study linked to on the first page of this thread answers many of the questions you are asking. It reports the cause of death for 85 monitor lizards kept by the Bronx Zoo over the past four decades, even breaking the data down by species- and discusses the data's implications for husbandry and reproductive management.


O.k, thanks for that, I missed it. (That`s been a recurring problem of mine).... :)
Edit: It`s only showing the abstract, I`ll have to order a copy from the library.

[jarich]

Stefan, Im pretty sure Robert would send you a copy if you give him your email.

[murrindindi]

Stefan, Im pretty sure Robert would send you a copy if you give him your email.


Thanks, I have contacted Robert previously, though I bet he`s forgotten already! :)

[_Varanidae_]

Frank, judging by your comment about working at the zoo when Sam Lee first started, I take it you haven't been with the BZ herp dept. since the mid/late 1990s? While I am not sure where your career took you after the BZ, you may have missed out on some important publications and improvements made in the fields of varanid biology and husbandry since then. Several have introduced paradigm shifts in the way monitors are kept.

For example, although a controversial figure in the monitor community due to his abrasive personality, Frank Retes played a pivotal role in the advancement of monitor husbandry during the 1990s and was one of the first to employ basking temperatures which were much hotter than those deemed acceptable by convention at the time. This was a major game changer, and enabled many more monitor species to be bred with greater frequency than in years and decades past (and to multiple CB generations). Here is the citation of the article which first introduced this idea of HOT basking sites which I highly recommend checking out:

Retes, F. & D. Bennett. 2001. Multiple generations, multiple clutches, and early maturity in four species of monitor lizards (Varanidae) bred in captivity. Herpetological Review 32(4): 244-245.

This is not to say that these changes were readily adopted or welcomed with open arms- there were many skeptics and opponents of this approach for quite some time. Prior to this shift, yes, some monitors were bred on occasion in zoos and private collections (the review articles by Horn & Visser, 1989, 1997 provide excellent overviews of breeding in the past). However, if you were to look closely at earlier published accounts of reproduction, you will see that egg viability was terrible (it still is today in many zoos; low viability was also seen at the BZ- see: Reproduction of varanid lizards (Reptilia: ... [Zoo Biol. 2012 May-Jun] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21538503)), eggs were rarely nested properly- scattered instead atop the substrate or in water basins, and successful cases of breeding were rarely, if ever repeated, and almost never on a consistent basis. While some of these issues are still present today, conditions have much improved since before this shift in the way heat is provided to monitors.

Upon talking with many colleagues in the zoo field while undertaking the three zoo-based varanid studies I conducted while at the BZ (the third- a study on life expectancy and longevity in zoos is forthcoming), I was shocked to learn that most zoos were not familiar with the publication above, or any of the other more recent publications that have helped improve standards of varanid husbandry over the last 10-15 years. As I mentioned above, taxon management accounts currently in use by zoos for studbook species were compiled in 1996, and clearly exemplifies this issue.

Chronic dehydration is another major problem in captivity (this actually gets more attention in our retrospective study), and is highly relevant in cases of gout. Considering that most varanids originate from either very humid environments or arid environments where they spend large amounts of time inside burrows and other retreats where the air is at or near saturation, screen cages or exhibits with large areas of ventilation and shallow substrates have not cut it. The conditions these types of setups produce can accelerate the rate of evaporative water loss and dehydration in captive monitors. Chronic dehydration can lead to gout and other physiological disorders, and ultimately death. As our study reports, 50% of V. melinus, 33% of V. griseus (a strict desert-dwelling species!), and 33% of V. varius died of gout at the BZ. Temperatures and humidity levels are a big deal and heavily tied in to the success of varanids in captivity.

If anyone is interested in reading more, I'll gladly send you both research articles dealing with varanids at the BZ.

Best,

Robert

[crocdoc]

...am starting to see personal criticisms which I will not address in any event.
There is nothing personal in these comments. It's simply a matter of what we know about varanid husbandry having changed over the years and those low basking temperatures are known to result in issues. When new keepers see a blog by someone that says they have worked at major zoos, they may try to copy the techniques outlined in your care section and that will lead to trouble for their monitors. We have a responsibility to ensure people start out on the right foot.

while there are and will always be problems, exceptions to the rule...Again, there are a number of ways to go about providing proper care
The exceptions to the rule are the monitors that fare well at those low basking temperatures. You'd be surprised at the difference when monitors are kept at higher basking temperatures. They feed better, grow faster, live longer and will breed readily. There may be a number of ways to go about providing proper care, but if one has been proven time and time again to be better than another, it is best that one puts that technique into a care sheet.

[fuzzhc]

Whilst my input wont mean much as im a fairly new savannah owner just thought id share my experience. When I first got mine I followed the pet shops and various websites guidelines with a lower humidity, sand and a basking area of 95-100 degree F.

A few months past and my monitor was worse for wear. He was sluggish, spent alot of his time in his water bowl and ate maybe a few crickets every couple of days at most and hadnt grown a single inch since I first got him.

When deficating which wasnt very often, it would always be in his water bowl. Since then I have been given the great advice to bump up the temps, humidity and a deeper substrate. At 60-70% humidity and a 140 basking area he has improved beyond belief.

He is very active and is growing like wild fire eating 2-3 small sized mice and a load of locusts and worms every day. Heck ive even got him hand feeding every day now and doing death rolls to prize the food from my tongs. I would highly recommend giving the higher temps and humidity a go.

[philipniceguy]

while I of course have never been to BZ I however have been to many UK based zoos and I yet to find one that has healthy active monitors on show. I sure some zoos are trying new stuff but very few of them which is very upsetting as they have the time, money and resources to pretty much do anything. If I had that sort of money and space I sure I would be going the extra mile toward groundbreaking new care.

[infernalis]

Why has this thread fell silent?

[murrindindi]

Why has this thread fell silent?


Perhaps the OP`s pride got in the way of progress (discussion)...
If "they" won`t listen how will it ever change??

[infernalis]

Perhaps the OP`s pride got in the way of progress (discussion)...
If "they" won`t listen how will it ever change??

I have the utmost respect for Frank's past & his career, I just really wish his opinion was not immovable.

Scientific research & private experiences have since proven that elevated temperatures, paying attention to humidity and deep soil substrates produce far healthier / robust Varanids in captivity.

History has also proven that under metabolised Varanids become lethargic, obese and their organs fail prematurely.

Three of the worlds leading Varanid specialists, with enough books, telecasts and research papers among them to build a small library have also pointed out the very same observations.

[bronxzoofrank]

Perhaps the OP`s pride got in the way of progress (discussion)...
If "they" won`t listen how will it ever change??

Please see comment#29; I'll read some of the forwarded articles when possible; cannot comment on these studies without reading...given what I know of note-taking/daily log entries at the zoo, hard to imagine how studies can accurately examine deaths dating back 4 decades, but, again, I'll need to read the articles. It will take some time, no point in my commenting until then..

[bronxzoofrank]

I really don't understand why this guy is so foolish as to not change the obvious faults with his care :/ In the short time I've had my Rudicollis its very clear which temperatures work best. He seems to be doing more harm then good because of his obstinateness.

Please refrain from personal attacks

[murrindindi]

I really don't understand why this guy is so foolish as to not change the obvious faults with his care :/ In the short time I've had my Rudicollis its very clear which temperatures work best. He seems to be doing more harm then good because of his obstinateness.


Hi, I`m not sure if Frank Indiviglio keeps monitors himself, he only stated he`s worked with them, but he does author the care guides which obviously need updating.
He did say he was very busy and would look into the points raised, so maybe he will return again quite soon?

[bronxzoofrank]

Perhaps the OP`s pride got in the way of progress (discussion)...
If "they" won`t listen how will it ever change??

Please do not comment on my perceived personality traits, pl see earlier response to this post also.

[murrindindi]

Please see comment#29; I'll read some of the forwarded articles when possible; cannot comment on these studies without reading...given what I know of note-taking/daily log entries at the zoo, hard to imagine how studies can accurately examine deaths dating back 4 decades, but, again, I'll need to read the articles. It will take some time, no point in my commenting until then..


Hi, sorry I must have been typing my last response when you typed this.
Hopefully now you`ve clarified your intention to comment further in due course, we will all have the patience to wait. Thanks!

[dinosaurdammit]

Please do not comment on my perceived personality traits, pl see earlier response to this post also.

Just my two cents but it sounds like you just dont want to hear ANYTHING negative and anything negative is an attack and just plain wrong to you. This is not the case- people disagree and are allowed to do so ESPECIALLY when an animals wellbeing is on the line.

[infernalis]

I am only going to say this once...

If people cannot respond in a professional manner in this thread, please do not respond at all.

This thread has attracted attention from all over, and I will not allow it to become a circus of slander.

[bronxzoofrank]

There is nothing personal in these comments. It's simply a matter of what we know about varanid husbandry having changed over the years and those low basking temperatures are known to result in issues. When new keepers see a blog by someone that says they have worked at major zoos, they may try to copy the techniques outlined in your care section and that will lead to trouble for their monitors. We have a responsibility to ensure people start out on the right foot.


The exceptions to the rule are the monitors that fare well at those low basking temperatures. You'd be surprised at the difference when monitors are kept at higher basking temperatures. They feed better, grow faster, live longer and will breed readily. There may be a number of ways to go about providing proper care, but if one has been proven time and time again to be better than another, it is best that one puts that technique into a care sheet.

Not referring to differing opinions, there was an insulting message that was removed by the moderator, 2 more have been posted recently, no time to debate opinions as to what is insulting, etc., will try to read forwarded articles, citations shortly.

[Akuma223]

My apologies on my earlier comment....

[crocdoc]

...no time to debate opinions as to what is insulting, etc.

Hopefully that's not all of the content you gleaned from my post. The first line was about insults, the rest was about monitor care. Online care sheets are only of value to keepers if they are going to benefit their charges. It is not just my opinion, but that of every successful modern monitor keeper, that low basking temperatures (such as those outlined in your care sheet) are damaging to monitors in the long term. Perhaps you should just take the care sheet offline until you have a chance to read the literature, so it doesn't do damage in the interim?

Just a suggestion.

[bronxzoofrank]

Hopefully that's not all of the content you gleaned from my post. The first line was about insults, the rest was about monitor care. Online care sheets are only of value to keepers if they are going to benefit their charges. It is not just my opinion, but that of every successful modern monitor keeper, that low basking temperatures (such as those outlined in your care sheet) are damaging to monitors in the long term. Perhaps you should just take the care sheet offline until you have a chance to read the literature, so it doesn't do damage in the interim?

Just a suggestion.

Perhaps my earlier point has been lost in the shuffle...while basking, monitors and other lizards raise their body temperatures over that of the basking site; hopefully the articles I've been forwarded re deaths attributed to basking temperatures will have info as to basking site temps, body temps of monitors; re the study conducted at the Bronx Zoo, I do not imagine this will be the case, as I have a good handle on what type of info is routinely entered on animal record cards, as such was part of my job for many years; I'll check, perhaps other means were found to address the issue. As for the article, the site managers are free to do as they see fit, please address your suggestion to them.

[crocdoc]

while basking, monitors and other lizards raise their body temperatures over that of the basking site;

No point has been lost, anywhere (and, speaking of insults, I find it incredibly condescending when people assume that disagreement means the other side has missed their point).

Many studies have been done on the preferred body temperatures of monitors and their core body temperatures while out foraging. Let's take one of the local monitors, the lace monitor, Varanus varius. It's not only local to my area, but is my favourite monitor, is the one I keep at home and is one of the species that you've failed with at the Bronx Zoo.

A great study was done on thermoregulation in wild lace monitors by Brian Weaver, quite a number of years ago. His study site was a fair way south of here, near the border between NSW and Victoria. Far from the tropics, this area would be considered warm temperate, bordering on temperate. Despite this, the monitors maintained a body temperature of around 36C (96.8C). In order to gain that temperature quickly, they position themselves perpendicularly to the sun and flatten out their body. They'll often get their body temperature a bit above that core temperature, especially if they are ill or have an infection. Even on a normal day, their skin gets phenomenally hot after basking. I've measured the skin temperature of my pair immediately after basking and it can be up to 44C (which, if that were the core temperature, would be lethal). This does not bother them. The point is to bask as little as possible so they can spend more time active and foraging.

With a basking temperature of 95F, the monitor would pretty much never be able to attain that temperature and, if it did, it would take a day of basking to do so.

Here's the thing - if you take a non-contact temperature gun and check the temperature on any surface in lace monitor habitat (I've done this, trust me), it is way above the preferred body temperature of a monitor. Even on a moderate day (like today - I've just gone outside to do this) the surface temperature is 50C in the sun. On a hot day the surface temperature of a neutral coloured rock is around 65C.

What high basking temperatures mean for our captives is that they are able to metabolise their meals properly (especially calcium and D3, but also protein etc) and self-medicate by raising their temperature above preferred core temperatures when ill. Much like mammals get a fever to raise their body temperature. Your lace monitors have developed gout and lived short lives because they weren't able to metabolise their meals properly. Let's not forget your breeding records with that species, which I believe stands at 0, despite them being a very easy species to breed.

I honestly don't mind if you want to stubbornly hold on to superseded husbandry techniques, but to put them onto a website in care sheet format is misleading new keepers, in my opinion. You may mean well, but you will cause many animals to suffer, long term. I've worked in enough zoos to be aware that zoos aren't always 'best practice' when it comes to reptile care, but many new keepers reading your care sheet may not be aware of that and will take your word as gospel. To me that is irresponsible.

[crocdoc]

By the way, what goes for lace monitors goes doubly so for other species as most monitors are tropical and many live in incredibly hot habitats.

[bronxzoofrank]

I've just read the Zoo biology study; perhaps I missed something, but I did not see any data re basking temps provided or body temps reached (as mentioned, this is as I expected, given my familiarity with the study site's record keeping system); the gout found on autopsy is often associated with low body temps; a wide variety of other factors (husbandry, medical conditions that we do not yet understand, etc.) are also likely involved in some or all of the deaths. Some of these were well covered in the article, others not.

[crocdoc]

...the gout found on autopsy is often associated with low body temps;

...and you don't think the gout often associated with low body temperatures is relevant to what we are discussing?

a wide variety of other factors (husbandry, medical conditions that we do not yet understand, etc.) are also likely involved in some or all of the deaths.

Ah, but in this day and age we do understand many of them. That may not have been the case when you were a keeper. Many of them are associated with low body temperatures.

I do have a question to ask: Why do you have such a strong (dare I say emotional) investment in your recommended basking temperatures, given that any modern keeper, across the board, would advise you to raise them?

[crocdoc]

I have almost missed this:
I've just read the Zoo biology study; perhaps I missed something, but I did not see any data re basking temps provided or body temps reached (as mentioned, this is as I expected, given my familiarity with the study site's record keeping system);

So, if the Bronx Zoo is not in the habit of keeping data on basking temperatures, on what do you base your (clearly immovable) recommended basking temperatures?

[_Varanidae_]

Hi,

Thanks for your input; we've done very well with those temperatures for a wide variety of species at the Bronx Zoo;

I am curious what criteria this success is based on. Lifespan? Long-term health? Reproductive success?

The reason why I ask is because it appears, based on your comment about briefly working with Sam Lee, that you left the BZ in the mid to late 1990s. This was likely before, or possibly towards the beginning of some limited reproductive success at the zoo, as the BZ didn't experience its first successful hatching of a monitor lizard until 1997 (V. beccarii), and this was from a confiscated pair that laid eggs a few days after arriving at the zoo. The first true captive breeding was of V. mertensi in 1998, followed by V. ornatus in 1999 (all successful reproductive events at the BZ are documented in the second paper I linked to earlier). My point is that if you are basing your comment on reproductive success, there wasn't much success occurring during the time you were there, if any.

The fact the zoo bred several species of monitor lizard since the late 1990s does not necessarily equate to them doing particularly well in the collection either, as when you look closely at egg viabilities (also reported in the reproductive study)- they have been very low for all species except V. ornatus (which only produced 2 clutches at the zoo). Here is some egg viability data taken from the study:

V. melinus: "A total of seven V. melinus offspring were hatched from a clutch of 10 eggs in 2007. Eight additional clutches have been laid by two wild-caught females, but lacked viability."

V. prasinus: "Since 2003, a total of 18 V. prasinus have been produced by two females, .... An additional 21 clutches have been produced by a total of four females since 2002; however, most of these eggs were nonviable, and on a few occasions contained fully developed embryos which died in their eggs prior to hatching."

V. beccarii: "...Thirteen additional clutches have been produced by one captive-bred and three wild-caught females; most were nonviable, but some eggs from one clutch incubated the entire term and died with fully-developed embryos."

V. mertensi: "An additional 25 clutches were laid by five females since 1995; however, eggs from these clutches were nonviable, died full-term, or were intentionally culled" (only 2 clutches were actually culled).

V. kordensis, V. olivaceus, V. salvator, V. storri, V. panoptes horni,
V. bengalensis nebulosus, and V. indicus: "All clutches received from these species lacked viability."

"A total of 20 clutches were produced by three V. kordensis..."

"Three clutches were produced by two female V. olivaceus ..."

"Six clutches were produced by five female V. salvator ..."

These statistics suggest a history of inadequate reproductive husbandry, as you will see has also been the case for most other zoos if you review the literature.

What about health as a criterion? If you look at the retrospective study I linked to, you will see that many of the diseases and disorders experienced by monitors at the BZ such as gout and reproductive complications are easily preventable with simple "modern" changes to husbandry.

You are correct in that the data from this study did not pinpoint specific problems at the BZ, as it would be near-impossible to effectively correlate specific individuals and their disease to specific husbandry given to that particular animal throughout its life. However, what the study does identify and illustrate, which I think is even more important, is that many of the confirmed causes of death are consistent with common health issues linked to problematic areas of captive husbandry which have already been identified and discussed elsewhere for varanid lizards.

The main purpose of the study, beyond presenting important mortality data, was to introduce zoos and their staff to these known husbandry and reproductive management issues, because many, like I've said are not well informed or familiar with the existing literature and current keeping methodologies, and keep making the same mistakes over and over again. Many today still practice antiquated husbandry, and are relying on 15+ year old husbandry guidelines as a reference.

Having also worked within the zoo industry for many years, including at well-funded, major zoos, tradition (the "this is what we've always done and things have worked out fine" attitude) tends to have a much stronger influence on husbandry practices than modern day advancements or published literature suggesting the contrary. I think I have presented considerable evidence of this here in this thread, and your persistent push-back from these modern keeping methodologies despite being unfamiliar with the literature, and even in the light of evidence demonstrating that these outdated practices have not been effective (i.e., limited reproductive success, mortality at the BZ) is further evidence of this.

I want to see zoos, as well as private keepers succeed and attempt to provide what's best for their captives. After all, that's their number one job. Having seen and experienced this obstructive mentality firsthand in the zoo field has given me the opportunity and inspiration to help improve the current situation, with the hopes of improving welfare, lifespan, and reproductive success in zoos. This is why I've invested more than four years reviewing existing literature, compiling data, running statistical analyses, and preparing the manuscripts for these studies.

This is also why we founded and continue to produce the varanid research journal Biawak (International Varanid Interest Group - (http://varanidae.org/biawak)). Varanid keeping should be about progress and advancement, not maintaining the status quo...

[bronxzoofrank]

While I applaud everyone's enthusiasm, I simply do not have the time to contact colleagues and do the follow-up research that would be required to properly respond to some of the comments, nor to wade through the barbs, veiled insults and "pet trade vs zoo" comparisons that are becoming increasingly frequent. I'm going to ask the moderators to remove the article/thread. Good luck to all, Frank

[bronxzoofrank]

...and you don't think the gout often associated with low body temperatures is relevant to what we are discussing?



Ah, but in this day and age we do understand many of them. That may not have been the case when you were a keeper. Many of them are associated with low body temperatures.

I do have a question to ask: Why do you have such a strong (dare I say emotional) investment in your recommended basking temperatures, given that any modern keeper, across the board, would advise you to raise them?

Mentioned gout to show I was aware of the possibility, and that other factors may be involved as well; not daring to use names here, given the tone of this thread, but personal and professional contact with the leading vets in this area convinces me that there is a great deal that we do not know.

[Little Wise Owl]

While I applaud everyone's enthusiasm, I simply do not have the time to contact colleagues and do the follow-up research that would be required to properly respond to some of the comments, nor to wade through the barbs, veiled insults and "pet trade vs zoo" comparisons that are becoming increasingly frequent. I'm going to ask the moderators to remove the article/thread. Good luck to all, Frank

That's a shame. This thread was very informative and interesting to read.

[infernalis]

While I applaud everyone's enthusiasm, I simply do not have the time to contact colleagues and do the follow-up research that would be required to properly respond to some of the comments, nor to wade through the barbs, veiled insults and "pet trade vs zoo" comparisons that are becoming increasingly frequent. I'm going to ask the moderators to remove the article/thread. Good luck to all, Frank

We do not remove threads here Frank.

I am the lead administrator of the forum, and I do not make it a practice to remove threads just because the author disagrees with replies.

It clearly states in the forum contract that each member agrees to upon registration that all content becomes the property of ssnakess.com immediately after posting.

Thanks for your understanding.

[Sam Sweet]

"I'm going to ask the moderators to remove the article/thread. Good luck to all, Frank"

Do you have any idea what that makes you look like? You have been giving antiquated advice, and nothing but excuses as to why you are so far behind. Adding that you haven't time to do follow-up research cements it.

That's exactly what the forum needs -- remove the evidence that you're a clown, and let captives continue to suffer because of your ego.

A forum worth the name would thank the other respondents for exposing the inadequacy of your advice.

Sam Sweet
Professor, UC Santa Barbara

[crocdoc]

Proper keeping is about making adjustments as more is learned about the care of our charges.

I'm going to ask this question again: Why the emotional attachment to basking temperatures which have been shown, time and time again, to be inadequate?

I no longer question that the attachment is emotional, for in the face of comments from many people (and, if you were to do some research of your own outside of this forum, you'd get the same answer over and over) you insist on sticking with superseded, antiquated husbandry techniques.

Removing this thread wouldn't have removed your care sheet from the internet, anyway, and that is the main issue here. We (all of us) have a responsibility to ensure that new keepers are given the correct advice. Your are not holding your end of the bargain in that regard. As I said, I don't care if you want to stick to antiquated husbandry techniques, but presenting them as advice to others is just downright wrong.

[Little Wise Owl]

Someone on here should do a temporary experiment. Keep one monitor of the same species, age and body condition at recommended lower zoo temperatures, and one at the higher newly recommended one and regularly document the outcomes i.e. feeding responses, physical activity, bowel movements, water intake (or lack thereof), body condition, etc.

[infernalis]

Someone on here should do a temporary experiment. Keep one monitor of the same species, age and body condition at recommended lower zoo temperatures, and one at the higher newly recommended one and regularly document the outcomes i.e. feeding responses, physical activity, bowel movements, water intake (or lack thereof), body condition, etc.

I already did that, Chomper died from it.

The behavioral differences were night and day as well.

In both cases, I started with a newly hatched Varanus Exanthematicus in perfect health at the onset.

Chomper became lethargic, overweight and developed gout and then died in excruciating pain.

Littlefoot & Cera are being kept at temperatures that match the weather report data from the Togo, Ghana weather station and they eat twice as much food, yet weigh half as much, activity levels are off the charts.

I could never in good conscience recommend another monitor lizard be kept in sub par conditions, as the outcome is always the same.. a dead lizard.

[Vegasarah]

Someone on here should do a temporary experiment. Keep one monitor of the same species, age and body condition at recommended lower zoo temperatures, and one at the higher newly recommended one and regularly document the outcomes i.e. feeding responses, physical activity, bowel movements, water intake (or lack thereof), body condition, etc.

A university should take up this task. It wouldn't be terribly expensive, just very time intensive. I wonder if anything like this is already in the works. I guess that the experiment wouldn't really been done until the one(s) kept in lower temperatures died. Although I am guessing things like gout would show up in blood work.

A private keeper could do the same, but their findings would probably not be held to the same standards. Those findings could easily be lied about, etc. Though photo evidence and careful record keeping would be enough for a private keeper such as myself, I'm sure a zoo would quickly dismiss it.

Hopefully more studies are done in the near future.

[infernalis]

A university should take up this task. It wouldn't be terribly expensive, just very time intensive. I wonder if anything like this is already in the works. I guess that the experiment wouldn't really been done until the one(s) kept in lower temperatures died. Although I am guessing things like gout would show up in blood work.

A private keeper could do the same, but their findings would probably not be held to the same standards. Those findings could easily be lied about, etc. Though photo evidence and careful record keeping would be enough for a private keeper such as myself, I'm sure a zoo would quickly dismiss it.

Hopefully more studies are done in the near future.

Peer review fixes that Sarah.

The hardest photo I have ever had to take...

http://www.savannahmonitor.net/gout/images/ChompGout.jpg

I hope I never have to witness this misery again as long as I live.

[crocdoc]

The 'experiment' has been done, in zoos and private collections around the world, for many years, now. It's simply a matter of matching conditions with end results.

[Vegasarah]

You've made a believer out of me, Wayne. But even your story is not enough to sway the decisions that zoos are making, clearly. It's a sad state, and it makes me wonder how many other zoos are doing the wrong thing. I guess that I just can't see what is so taxing about installing some extra flood lights at a zoo... it kind of boggles my mind to be honest. Of course, I don't know much about the way that zoos are run. I wonder if there would be a good way of contacting local zoos and presenting a great packet of research on more proper care. I could see a 'print pack' that could be set up here or on your site that we could distribute to mostly zoos, but also private keepers.

[bodiddleyitis]

The 'experiment' has been done, in zoos and private collections around the world, for many years, now. It's simply a matter of matching conditions with end results.
Indeed it has, and this is the first "serious" opposition to the ideas that I have heard since the very early 21st Century. In the mid 1990s the husbandry techniques that Frank recommends were de rigueur, today they are obsolete, or so I hoped. I wonder what thermal gradients monitor lizards at the Bronx Zoo are provided with today?

[varanus_mad]

Someone on here should do a temporary experiment. Keep one monitor of the same species, age and body condition at recommended lower zoo temperatures, and one at the higher newly recommended one and regularly document the outcomes i.e. feeding responses, physical activity, bowel movements, water intake (or lack thereof), body condition, etc.

its been done and is still being done I killed my first bosc that way.

After that ive been trying to make a difference instead i find myself dispairing after seeing case after case of people repeating the same mistakes

[Robyn@SYR]

Plenty of smart and successful lizard keepers in this thread. And I am certainly a believer in proper (high) basking temps, temp gradients and moisture gradients with a good substrate, but some of you guys are lacking in the tact department : )

Frank seems enthusiastic about his animals, and his job. That's great to see. But I think you guys are blowing a chance to have a productive discussion with him. He was set on the defensive within moments of his first post.

For most of the posters in the thread, it should come as no surprise that zoo folks keep their monitors differently than most private monitor breeders.

The same goes for most veterinarians. Take a sick monitor to a vet and most of the time the "remedy" is going to be in the direction of low basking temps and some fancy pants light bulb. Ugh.

Tens of thousands of bearded dragons die each year from simple ignorance of lizard husbandry and needs, and instead a die hard adherence to some incredibly out of date books and "accepted" setups.

I have long wondered about the right path to bringing zoo keepers AND vets up to speed on current lizard husbandry. There is a real need there, an opportunity.

And I don't know the solution to it. But as an outside observer, you guys have been unnecessarily harsh on Frank when he reached out to you first.

You know, the whole honey vs. vinegar thing : )

Frank is sure to meet and talk with other zoo keepers. The Bronx Zoo is a very respected facility in the AZA community. At this point, he is likely to say "I tried to share some info on one of those dumb forums, and instead I got called an idiot by a bunch of know-it-alls".

And their response? "Tell me about it. Internet jerks."

(we are ALL internet jerks to folks that don't use the internet. Unfair, but a very common label)

There is an opportunity here to INSTEAD have the conversation go this way-

"I posted on an internet forum, and some of the guys started talking about basking temps. The difference between air temps and surface temps, temperature gradients, metabolism and stuff. It was really interesting, I pulled out my temp gun and started making some changes..."

That is the conversation I would like to see happen : )

Hopefully Frank returns, and we can get a discussion going amongst peers- a group of folks that love to keep and learn about monitors and lizards : )

[crocdoc]

Well, Robyn, as the first person that responded to Frank's post I thought I was being reasonably tactful by starting with 'may I make a recommendation?' If you think there was a more tactful way I could have approached this (and I mean this with sincerity), I'd be happy to hear it. I initially wasn't going to say anything, as I knew exactly how this thread would go.

I think I speak for most people that later posts by almost all of us started getting crankier out of frustration at his refusal to budge on his ideas. We started off explaining why high basking temperatures are important, but it didn't really seem to be sinking in.

I guess that I just can't see what is so taxing about installing some extra flood lights at a zoo... it kind of boggles my mind to be honest. Of course, I don't know much about the way that zoos are run.
Having worked in a few zoos and zoo type facilities, the three main issues (listed in order of greatest to least influence) are:

1. Display. Most reptile displays have a large window in the front, with basking lights installed above the window so that they are out of the public's view. It is very hard to maintain high basking temperatures at those sorts of distances, so trying to keep an attractive, naturalist display while meeting the needs of the animals is not always easy. I have worked in one facility that managed this, but only with massive metal halide lights and tissue heaters above the display window.

2. Red tape. In most zoos, for a keeper to make a change it usually must first get approved by several other people, from senior keepers up to the curator and often the vet. Given the status quo, trying to convince everyone that a really hot basking spot is the way to go is often trickier than it would seem.

3. An (for lack of a better word) inertia based on the 'but we've always done it this way' principle. Monitors seem to do okay with low basking spot temperatures because they can linger in sub-optimal conditions for a long time. It may take years for the effects to become obvious and even then the connection between the basking temperature (mainly because they'd always been the same) and the untimely death is not made (as per this thread). Unless one has had experience with monitors living with hot basking temperatures, in which case the behaviour differences are immediately visible.

[_Varanidae_]

Since it seems as though this thread has shifted a bit towards bashing zoos, which I feel partly responsible for, I feel it is important to point out that monitor husbandry in general is in dire straits.

Considering the total number of monitors kept in the private sector, husbandry among private monitor keepers as a whole is no better, and is probably far worse than that in zoos. Remember that the online monitor community- those of us who participate in forums like this one is but a tiny fraction of the total number of people keeping monitors in captivity, so do not assume that most hobbyists fall under the same category as ourselves. Most abide by pet store husbandry recommendations or online care sheets they come across after a 1 second Google search. Few keepers actually read real information on monitor biology and husbandry, and even fewer exchange their ideas and actually seek to improve on their current practices. The status quo is an even tougher habit to break in the private sector- solidified, in part, by decades of terrible, yet influential husbandry books aimed at pet store distribution.

However, there is a major distinction between zoos and the private sector, which I feel is unacceptable when talking about herpetological husbandry. Zoos, especially the larger, more established ones are academic institutions. Many are directly involved in academic research and in-situ and ex-situ conservation efforts. Many have herpetology departments with impressive operating budgets and abundant resources available to them (i.e., their own exhibit and machine shops that can build cages, nest boxes, make modifications, etc.). Many have extensive research libraries and remote access to a near-unlimited supply of research journals, and most have their own in-house veterinary and pathology departments.

As academic institutions with these near-unlimited resources and abundant funding, why aren't zoos, at least in the case of monitor lizards, leaders at the forefront of husbandry- pioneering new techniques and approaches based on sound science? Don't get me wrong, there are some zoos and many zoo keepers that are doing fantastic work with varanids here in North America and abroad; however, many, as I've pointed out are still practicing antiquated husbandry that is 15 or 20 years old. There is no reason why Joe Schmoe should be experiencing more success in keeping and breeding monitor lizards in his basement or tiny one car garage, than well-funded zoos with all of the resources and amenities one could ever ask for in herpetological husbandry available to them.

I can accept this deficiency in awareness of current husbandry practices from hobbyists that don't know any better or are unfamiliar with scientific research and literature, but for academic institutions to wane far behind current keeping standards, I find this highly unacceptable. It is the reason why I have been vocal on this subject, and is why I have embarked on trying to initiate change from within through these studies.

[_Varanidae_]

Frank seems enthusiastic about his animals, and his job.

Frank is sure to meet and talk with other zoo keepers. The Bronx Zoo is a very respected facility in the AZA community. At this point, he is likely to say "I tried to share some info on one of those dumb forums, and instead I got called an idiot by a bunch of know-it-alls".



I think there has been some confusion here - Frank is not a current keeper at the zoo. He has not worked in the BZ's herpetology department in more than a decade (probably more like 15+ years), which I assume is why he continues to offer antiquated husbandry advice that dates back to this era.

His recommendations of low basking spots are not consistent or in line with husbandry techniques used by the zoo today.

[_Varanidae_]

Since the underlying issue behind this thread traces back to a simple unfamiliarity with current keeping standards, here are some excellent publications providing detailed information on contemporary keeping methodologies, as well as problematic areas of husbandry:

Bennett, D. & R. Thakoordyal. 2003. The Savannah Monitor Lizard - The Truth About Varanus exanthematicus. Viper Press, Aberdeen. 83 pp.

Brown, D. 2012. A Guide to Australian Monitors in Captivity. Reptile Publications, Burleigh. 263 p.

Eidenmüller, B. 2005. Captive care of monitors. Part I: introduction and housing. Iguana 12(3): 177-181.

Eidenmüller, B. 2005. Captive care of monitors. Part II: diet and reproduction. Iguana 12(4): 246-251.

Eidenmüller, B. 2007. Monitor Lizards: Natural History, Captive Care & Breeding. Edition Chimaira, Frankfurt am Main, 176 p.

Horn, H.-G. 2004. Keeping Monitors in Captivity: A Biological, Technical, and Legislative Problem. Pp. 556-570. In: Pianka, E.R., D.R. King and R.A. King (eds.), Varanoid Lizards of the World. Indiana University Press, Indianapolis.

Horn, H.-G. & G.J. Visser. 1997. Review of reproduction of monitor lizards Varanus spp. in captivity II. International Zoo Yearbook 35: 227-246.

Husband, G. & M. Bonnett. 2009. Monitors. Pp. 484-583. In Swan, M. (ed.), Keeping and Breeding Australian Lizards. Mike Swan Herp Books, Lilydale.

[infernalis]

Direct links to purchase Daniel Bennett's book are provided here..

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/varanid/96986-savannah-monitor-book-ebook-kindle.html

The thread is also open for discussion.

These web sites are well worth a look as well.

Mampam Conservation - Home (http://www.mampam.com)

International Varanid Interest Group - Home (http://varanidae.org/)

[murrindindi]

I have some details on the conditions that the Ornate and Merten`s monitors belonging to Dr. Sam Lee were kept in prior to him rehousing them at the WCS (Bronx zoo).
According to the paper he sent me (I`m not sure if it was ever published, but the date on it is 1998), the basking temps he offered ranged from 90 to 100f, though he doesn`t specify whether those are ambient or surface, I`ll assume ambient, simply because at that time surface temps weren`t given much thought to (as far as I know, at least)?
If there were basking objects in place such a large stones or similar the surface temps would probably have been within the range we now know are required for proper support. He mentions the enclosures were sprayed several times weekly and several times a day between april to may, so evidently Sam realised humidity was important, though he gives no figures for the range.
Interestingly, when the animals were transferred to the zoo the conditions changed. [Quote]: "At the zoo, the lizards were kept at more optimal thermal conditions; ambient temperature ranges from 77 to 88f (25 to 31c) under skylights and artificial lighting set at 12L:12D" [Enquote].
So who decided to drop the temps, and why?
If the main issues then and now at the zoo (and some other zoos) are understanding the importance of and checking the surface temps and humidity, surely it can`t be that difficult for the "powers that be" to provide the means to supply them?
Maybe Frank Indiviglio doesn`t have too much say in the matter these days as far as the zoo is concerned, but he needs to change the advise he offers on captive care immediately (no disrespect).
None of us have all the answers, but some of us have enough to support our animals properly.
How very sad if he decides not to discuss it further, the situation is quite desperate....

[varanus1]

I beg to differ (as a frequent visitor to the Bronx), but I'm going to be polite and bite my tongue/sit on my typing hands.

Best

I have to agree with crocdoc also monitors do need those hot temps. I too been to the bronx zoo many times when in NY btw.

[murrindindi]

I have to agree with crocdoc also monitors do need those hot temps. I too been to the bronx zoo many times when in NY btw.

Hi, do you keep monitors? If yes, and your husbandry has changed regarding the temps and humidity, how long before you noticed a difference in behaviour?

[AjaMichelle]

To Daniel, Robert, David, Stefan, and Sam Sweet, thank you for contributing to this thread. Your input is really valuable, and I appreciate you all taking the time to share it. :)

[varanus1]

...and you don't think the gout often associated with low body temperatures is relevant to what we are discussing?



Ah, but in this day and age we do understand many of them. That may not have been the case when you were a keeper. Many of them are associated with low body temperatures.

I do have a question to ask: Why do you have such a strong (dare I say emotional) investment in your recommended basking temperatures, given that any modern keeper, across the board, would advise you to raise them?

I agree 100%.......... This day and age a lot has changed in being successful in monitor keeping and breeding. I use frank retes methods and have for a long time and have had far better results (clutch after clutch on many species) than how it was known to keep them in the 80's-90's at temps of 85-95 degrees that's just keeping them alive and short lived in my opinion.

[murrindindi]

To Daniel, Robert, David, Stefan, and Sam Sweet, thank you for contributing to this thread. Your input is really valuable, and I appreciate you all taking the time to share it. :)


Hi Miss AjaMichelle,
you`ve learned so much in a relatively short time, that`s due to your willingness to listen to and act on advise offered.
I thank you for deciding to get into the hobby (even though at times you`re a tease).... :D

[dinosaurdammit]

When I first got my nile I will admit I used caresheets and he was docile and lazy, after reading on here to raise them, he become hostile and- well, a monitor. After I traded him for an argus/goulds monitor I had the heat correct, his pervious conditions left his nails overgrown and lazy, after 3 days at my house he became hyper aware, hissing, puffing before settling in. He now tolerates me pretty well but he is very active and acting as a monitor should. I do hope people realize what a difference temps make. Its night and day

[varanus1]

Hi, do you keep monitors? If yes, and your husbandry has changed regarding the temps and humidity, how long before you noticed a difference in behaviour?

Yes i do have been for a long time i use to this day methods FR uses hot temps,deep substrate and bulbs close as possible,unlike zoos which have bulbs high up and open air tops.I noticed changes in behavior right away.Feeding goes up,breeding is more,active more,other behaviors seen you wouldnt see with cooler temps.

[varanus1]

The main thing here is getting old info off the web as husbandry methods has improved far better with keeping of monitors today and like robyn stated get ones who read it thinking and testing not just following a care sheet.Ever since i started following the keep um hot and fed method among a few other things i never view a care sheets as i see such basic info which makes me feel its just keeping them alive..

[infernalis]

The main thing here is getting old info off the web as husbandry methods has improved far better with keeping of monitors today and like robyn stated get ones who read it thinking and testing not just following a care sheet.Ever since i started following the keep um hot and fed method among a few other things i never view a care sheets as i see such basic info which makes me feel its just keeping them alive..

Thanks for posting Steve, This particular situation is not so much a care sheet as it is a celebrity figure who published a very flashy looking blog page.

[varanus1]

Thanks for posting Steve, This particular situation is not so much a care sheet as it is a celebrity figure who published a very flashy looking blog page.

I understand that was just stating since my methods changed how keeping monitors are done now i don't find myself ever viewing care sheets but back in the day 90's yes a lot has changed ever since FR showed many of us new better methods that were proven with generation after generation with i never looked back and has been proven to me it works.
As a example i produced V.tristis tristis clutchs for a year straight from a pair with this how we now keep monitors and never missed a month and sizes were 7-12 eggs per.I also added a second adult female and got eggs in 4 weeks and she produced clutchs several times since i had her.
Now a buddy of mine had tristis also that were not kept like i do and he got nothing in all the time he had them.They were kept cooler and low substrate.
My ackies just now got up to size for breeding and its been non stop breeding for them using this method so eggs will be following im sure.

I posted this just to show others reading it to gain knowledge that this method of today works and works well.


As for the blog this thread started about on i don't agree with many things written in it and to me seems based off knowledge from a long time ago how many knew nothing about them. Yes it should be removed or re written better to how so much more is known to keeping now which has proven its self to be

[varanus1]

I was sad to see last year at a zoo near me komodos kept so back in time with husbandy they had no basking lamps whats so ever and only got heat from skylight on sunny days and they looked terrible and never moved around.

[dinosaurdammit]

I was sad to see last year at a zoo near me komodos kept so back in time with husbandy they had no basking lamps whats so ever and only got heat from skylight on sunny days and they looked terrible and never moved around.

for such endangered animals there should be EXTRA care with them, this s shameful- ugh. Poor guys.

[murrindindi]

I was sad to see last year at a zoo near me komodos kept so back in time with husbandy they had no basking lamps whats so ever and only got heat from skylight on sunny days and they looked terrible and never moved around.

Hi, do you know how long the monitors have been at the zoo? I find it strange in as much as the info on captive care of the species is nowadays readily available, and I would have thought would have been passed on when the zoo aquired them if it`s relatively recently?

[varanus1]

i have no idea how long ive been their 2 times in several years and it were their. Ive only seen one also.

[Zoo Nanny]

If there are burrows or caves in the exhibit there may possibly be heating and lighting available inside of them. A number of zoos are also using large rock like structures which are heated for laying on.

[crocdoc]

For what it's worth, I wasn't intending to bash zoos in my post, just explain that sometimes circumstances prevent zoos (or individual keepers) from changing things, so even the best intentions may not get anywhere.

[AjaMichelle]

Hi Miss AjaMichelle,
you`ve learned so much in a relatively short time, that`s due to your willingness to listen to and act on advise offered.
I thank you for deciding to get into the hobby (even though at times you`re a tease).... :D

Haha :) I want to learn as much as humanly possible and as quickly as possible, and I know I have benefitted more than I can describe from knowledgeable individuals who make an effort to make good husbandry information available. I hope that eventually the good information will be more prevalent than the bad, but to make that happen we need people to continue to correct out-dated husbandry techniques.

Thank you for helping me when I was first starting out, and continuing to be a source for ideas and discussion. I wouldn't be a very good scientist if I was unwilling to listen to new perspectives and alter my method when appropriate. I don't want to ever lose a monitor to something I could have prevented had I done enough research, and luckily for me, I believe I have started out on the right foot thanks to the availability of good information.

[Vegasarah]

Having worked in a few zoos and zoo type facilities, the three main issues (listed in order of greatest to least influence) are:



1. Display. Most reptile displays have a large window in the front, with basking lights installed above the window so that they are out of the public's view. It is very hard to maintain high basking temperatures at those sorts of distances, so trying to keep an attractive, naturalist display while meeting the needs of the animals is not always easy. I have worked in one facility that managed this, but only with massive metal halide lights and tissue heaters above the display window.



2. Red tape. In most zoos, for a keeper to make a change it usually must first get approved by several other people, from senior keepers up to the curator and often the vet. Given the status quo, trying to convince everyone that a really hot basking spot is the way to go is often trickier than it would seem.



3. An (for lack of a better word) inertia based on the 'but we've always done it this way' principle. Monitors seem to do okay with low basking spot temperatures because they can linger in sub-optimal conditions for a long time. It may take years for the effects to become obvious and even then the connection between the basking temperature (mainly because they'd always been the same) and the untimely death is not made (as per this thread). Unless one has had experience with monitors living with hot basking temperatures, in which case the behaviour differences are immediately visible.



I don't know anything about the way that zoos are run, thank you very much for clearing that up for me. I totally understand all of this, and it makes a lot of sense that this is the way that it is in zoos. Or for that matter any other company, business, etc. It would probably be a massive undertaking to re-structure the enclosures and displays in order to rectify the 'low basking temp' situation that zoo monitors are facing. It's kind of one of those things where you say 'where to start?'. I think that the older that Wayne's Savs get, the more clear the message will be. Video evidence is a great way to show people the differences. Another good thing to think about is getting the new Savs checked out by a (hopefully the same one) vet that dealt with Chomper. I know that as a private keeper, Wayne's 'in your face' approach to proper husbandry really helped me make the right decision. While Chomper was a great lizard, LF and Cera are WILD. They act like the Savs you see on documentaries. I feel like that was enough for me, and will hopefully be enough for BOTH zoos and private keepers to sit up and take notice. Thanks again for that information, it was very helpful.

[Vegasarah]

Haha :) I want to learn as much as humanly possible and as quickly as possible, and I know I have benefitted more than I can describe from knowledgeable individuals who make an effort to make good husbandry information available. I hope that eventually the good information will be more prevalent than the bad, but to make that happen we need people to continue to correct out-dated husbandry techniques.

Thank you for helping me when I was first starting out, and continuing to be a source for ideas and discussion. I wouldn't be a very good scientist if I was unwilling to listen to new perspectives and alter my method when appropriate. I don't want to ever lose a monitor to something I could have prevented had I done enough research, and luckily for me, I believe I have started out on the right foot thanks to the availability of good information.

I feel the same way. I'm very grateful to everyone that has helped me on my own threads and to those that continue to share their wealth of information on threads such as this one. I'm hoping to one day work in a zoo either as a vet or a research specialist. This thread is so helpful and extremely interesting. Thank you to all that contribute to it, your knowledge is invaluable.

[infernalis]

Another good thing to think about is getting the new Savs checked out by a (hopefully the same one) vet that dealt with Chomper. I know that as a private keeper, Wayne's 'in your face' approach to proper husbandry really helped me make the right decision. While Chomper was a great lizard, LF and Cera are WILD. They act like the Savs you see on documentaries. I feel like that was enough for me, and will hopefully be enough for BOTH zoos and private keepers to sit up and take notice. Thanks again for that information, it was very helpful.

Sarah, I appreciate the kind words, But I would be remiss if I did not fully disclose the entire Veterinarian experience.

Dr. Sanford is a brilliant woman with a degree from Cornell & a masters degree from the University of Maryland at College Park. However while I was in her office (multiple times) we could not agree on acceptable husbandry practices.

Apparently, these two fine Universities are still teaching outdated husbandry.

She swore that a basking spot exceeding 100 degrees would harm my lizards! she advised shallow substrates, large water bowls and an invert only diet.

Because of her education, she refused to accept what a common "street person" as myself attempted to offer her.

Her only role in the final test results was sending samples from Chomper to a laboratory for analysis, I was on my own to interpret the results, and it was Crocdoc who suggested the final summary of the data she obtained for me.

She knew his kidneys had shut down, she knew (via lab work) that his uric acid levels were so high that it was lethal, but she could not say why.

It was Robert Mendyk's research that led me to know and accept that chronic exposure to insufficient temperatures inhibited renal tubule function, and common sense that led me in the direction of respiration of dry air strips away precious body moisture. (Reviewed and confirmed by Crocdoc)

[Vegasarah]

I meant only to have comparable results with Chomper's husbandry and LF and Cera's. If you still have those lab results, then that's all you really need. Doing the same blood work, labs, and fecals on your current guys will produce the comparative information you need in order for people such as your vet to sit up and take notice.

Have you ever thought about working with a vet/ pathologist/ scientist to create your own papers on this research as it is happening in your household? I know that private keepers often get shrugged off as just the guy on the street, but if you were to work with some of the fantastic people on here that could change? Zoos and vets and universities are going to take better to a formal submission rather than to spoken word or something on an internet forum. It's a real shame that these are the people doling out advice and medical care and will not hear of anything short of scientific.

[Pirarucu]

This whole thing is why I love Moody Gardens. Natural sunlight for heat in a greenhouse on the Texas coast. It's almost impossible to go wrong with that kind of setup.

[bodiddleyitis]

They act like the Savs you see on documentaries.

Are there documentaries with savannah monitors? I want to see them!

[infernalis]

Are there documentaries with savannah monitors? I want to see them!

Me too!:D

I think she meant monitors Daniel.

My video library covers just about every known documentary there is excluding the Butaan special (Missed a rerun by an hour a few months ago)

Have the entire "BBC Life" with David Attenborough (highly recommended to anyone), Lizard Kings, a half dozen komodoensis documentaries, But I have never seen one Bosc even mentioned in any of them.

Even the "Attenborough's Africa - Savannah" has not one second of Bosc footage. (still a brilliant film)

[alessia55]

As someone not involved in the varanid world, why do you think that savs aren't covered or touched on in documentaries, like in the Attenborough's Africa - Savannah?

[infernalis]

As someone not involved in the Varanid world, why do you think that savs aren't covered or touched on in documentaries, like in the Attenborough Africa - Savannah?

Because the viewing public is far more captivated with Lions, colourful birds, Zebras, primates & the other animals seen in Disney movies and zoos.

we have to remember, these films are made to captivate a very large audience, there was not even mention of Python Regius either.


This is also why there is so many Komodo dragon specials, everyone has heard of them, everyone is interested in them.

However (no disrespect intended) so many Komodo Dragon specials have been made that a few of them are just compilations of footage from previous specials, or over glorification of the rare attacks on humans.

I have a special presented by Stephen Fry (UK comedian of Black adder fame) that was more about the journey and the personal experiences of the presenters than it was about the lizards. 30 minutes into the special I was still wondering when the heck they were going to actually present something of interest about the dragons themselves.

[infernalis]

I am so sorry, How in the heck could I forget Dr. Burghardt???

KckqWt1JU3s

[alessia55]

I am so sorry, How in the heck could I forget Dr. Burghardt???


That was really cool

[murrindindi]

Hi Wayne, I know you recently contacted Gordon Burghardt and he sent you the results of "intelligence" tests, but they were completed (I think) in 2007, has he mentioned more recent tests, because in 2010 he told me they were still working on the data of more?

[varanus1]

great video, i saw something like this with croc monitors before forgot who or where though

[infernalis]

Hi Wayne, I know you recently contacted Gordon Burghardt and he sent you the results of "intelligence" tests, but they were completed (I think) in 2007, has he mentioned more recent tests, because in 2010 he told me they were still working on the data of more?

Yes, Dr. Burghardt had indicated to me that the current studies are co authored by others, and he was not in the position to forward the data without first clearing it with the other people involved.

[infernalis]

I won't say anything...

Zoo Day: Savannah monitor lizard - San Diego, California News Station - KFMB Channel 8 - cbs8.com (http://www.cbs8.com/story/20443408/zoo-day)

[dinosaurdammit]

I won't say anything...

Zoo Day: Savannah monitor lizard - San Diego, California News Station - KFMB Channel 8 - cbs8.com (http://www.cbs8.com/story/20443408/zoo-day)

way to make me cry wayne :C i just want to cuddle pajaaamas and sob, whats wrong with its eyes? Is he blind?

[infernalis]

Looks to be developing cataracts.

This thread seemed to be the appropriate place to post that..

[Gungirl]

Wow.. that is just sad Wayne.

[varanus_mad]

Looks to be developing cataracts.

This thread seemed to be the appropriate place to post that..


Poor sod nuff said.

[Vegasarah]

Heart breaking. Even the hosts said he was lethargic. I just can't believe that someone can look at that animal and say that it's perfectly healthy. That guy is really small for 10 years old, and looks like he's about to drop dead. Mainly insectivore worries me too. Looks like I've got my work cut out for me as far as working at the SD zoo goes :/

[infernalis]

Now Sara, please understand that in the wild, Savannah Monitors primary diet is snails, giant millipedes, scorpions, worms and bugs.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/varanid/98052-varanus-exanthematicus-scientific-data-interesting-finds.html

[varanus_mad]

Now Sara, please understand that in the wild, Savannah Monitors primary diet is snails, giant millipedes, scorpions, worms and bugs.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/varanid/98052-varanus-exanthematicus-scientific-data-interesting-finds.html

how and why we apply that to captivity has been a much debated subject.

[murrindindi]

Heart breaking. Even the hosts said he was lethargic. I just can't believe that someone can look at that animal and say that it's perfectly healthy. That guy is really small for 10 years old, and looks like he's about to drop dead. Mainly insectivore worries me too. Looks like I've got my work cut out for me as far as working at the SD zoo goes :/


Hi, if the length they gave is accurate (4 feet) then it`s a good average for an adult male V. exathematicus.
The condition was pretty awful, not sure when the animal was filmed (I saw the date of the video is 2012), hopefully if it`s from some time back, and the zoo has since updated it`s husbandry?

[infernalis]

how and why we apply that to captivity has been a much debated subject.

Yes it has mate, yes it has.

I often stand in the way of the crossfire.

Just look at that train wreck of a thread on tegutalk....:cool:

[Pirarucu]

I am so sorry, How in the heck could I forget Dr. Burghardt???

Out of curiosity, do you happen to know how those animals are housed?

[Vegasarah]

how and why we apply that to captivity has been a much debated subject.

That is what I wad getting at, not that an all insectivore diet would be wrong. I just think that it might be a little lacking. But thats a whole nother topic!

[lady_bug87]

I'm really disappointed that Frank pulled out of this thread because of pride. And kudos to all the great contributions. Monitor keepers always amaze me in their devotion to proper information

[crocdoc]

I'm really disappointed that Frank pulled out of this thread because of pride.

Ha, you beat me by a few minutes. I was about to post exactly those sentiments (disappointment that he had pulled out of this thread because of pride), almost with the exact wording, and then saw that you had posted this a few minutes earlier.

Here's my take:

1. We've known for a long time that monitors have a very high preferred body temperature. There has been much literature on this and it isn't that hard to find.

2. We've also known for a long time that the surface temperature of objects that are outside and exposed to the sun is higher than a monitor's preferred body temperature, yet they still bask in the wild.

3. Because of 1. and 2., monitors have been kept with basking temperatures higher than preferred body temperatures for many years, now, and it has been found to be beneficial for them. It allows them to spend more time actively moving around, rather than spend much of their day basking, and allows them to self-medicate by raising their body temperature above preferred body temperature.

I can understand someone not being aware of these facts and repeating old husbandry practices verbatim, without researching for new information, because these were the standard practices when they worked in the zoo system a number of years ago. What I can't understand is having the above information pointed out and still insisting on spreading outdated information (such as keeping monitors with basking temperatures ten degrees below preferred body temperature, not even at preferred core body temperature, and then trying to justify it by saying that monitors can raise their body temperature above ambient). What's more, insisting on spreading that misinformation under the guise of 'care information' on the internet. All because he doesn't want to admit that he may have had incorrect, older information. Which shouldn't be a pride thing at all, as information changes and we all must adapt as we go, but for some reason seems to hit at the ego of some keepers. My apologies to Robyn, for I know this is not the way you like things handled, but I find this situation frustrating and ridiculous, not to mention the effect it will have on monitors kept by new keepers naively following that 'care information' they've just found online.

[lady_bug87]

I guess great minds think alike!

Some people just don't evolve. This isn't the first time he has cut his losses and left a thread because of people disagreeing with him.

He may think less of you all for challenging him, he may even tell his colleagues about the group of know it alls. But in turn I'm sure that many of us think less of him... it goes both ways. It really is unfortunate

[infernalis]

I find this situation frustrating and ridiculous, not to mention the effect it will have on monitors kept by new keepers naively following that 'care information' they've just found online.

Just last night I tried to help a new keeper on another forum, but because what I had to say went against the..

1. pet store advice
2. information found in a 20 year old paperback book
3. youtube videos

I was a liar, and the new person refused to even listen to me, and about a half dozen other people.

With Frank's history with the BZ, and his small handful of published books (None are Varanid books) his blog will bear weight with the general public.

Honestly, because of that, I have removed the link to the blog from this forum, since I don't want that associated with the mission of this forum, nor do I want to bolster the search results when people are googling "monitor care"..

In fact I feel it would be remiss to leave that link on these boards.

[_Varanidae_]

Speaking of insufficient basking temperatures, where animals must bask for much of the day just to reach preferred body temperatures, I recently came across an article from the 1990s describing the behavioral repertoire/activity period of V. bengalensis in a zoo in India. This study found that captives spent 68.2% of their activity period basking.

Based on my experiences observing V. salvator and V. bengalensis nebulosus throughout Southeast Asia, I have a difficult time believing that a comparable amount of overall activity in the wild is normally spent basking- except perhaps in cooler weather periods. There was an article published in Biawak not too long ago which documented the basking habits of V. bengalensis nebulosus in northeastern Thailand. It reported on a single animal which basked for 5 or 6 hours a day- which would seem agreeable with the values mentioned above; however, these observations were made over a period where daytime highs reached only into the mid 80s (as opposed to the upper 90s during hotter parts of the year) and when there was considerable cloud cover and rainfall. Another factor to consider is that the sunlight is not as direct or intense during the times when the animal typically basked (early morning and late afternoon) (see: http://varanidae.org/Vol3_No3-Duengkae_and_Chuaynkern.pdf).

Many of the monitors that I've encountered in the wild were foraging. Animals would occasionally stop to bask in patches of sunlight, but moved on usually after just a few minutes, not several hours, as is frequently seen in captivity. Dave has much experience observing wild V. varius, V. rosenbergi, and V. salvator, and I would wager that his observations and experiences have been similar.

[dinosaurdammit]

Speaking of insufficient basking temperatures, where animals must bask for much of the day just to reach preferred body temperatures, I recently came across an article from the 1990s describing the behavioral repertoire/activity period of V. bengalensis in a zoo in India. This study found that captives spent 68.2% of their activity period basking.

Based on my experiences observing V. salvator and V. bengalensis nebulosus throughout Southeast Asia, I have a difficult time believing that a comparable amount of overall activity in the wild is normally spent basking- except perhaps in cooler weather periods. There was an article published in Biawak not too long ago which documented the basking habits of V. bengalensis nebulosus in northeastern Thailand. It reported on a single animal which basked for 5 or 6 hours a day- which would seem agreeable with the values mentioned above; however, these observations were made over a period where daytime highs reached only into the mid 80s (as opposed to the upper 90s during hotter parts of the year) and when there was considerable cloud cover and rainfall. Another factor to consider is that the sunlight is not as direct or intense during the times when the animal typically basked (early morning and late afternoon) (see: http://varanidae.org/Vol3_No3-Duengkae_and_Chuaynkern.pdf).

Many of the monitors that I've encountered in the wild were foraging. Animals would occasionally stop to bask in patches of sunlight, but moved on usually after just a few minutes, not several hours, as is frequently seen in captivity. Dave has much experience observing wild V. varius, V. rosenbergi, and V. salvator, and I would wager that his observations and experiences have been similar.


now that i think about it, pajaaamas only spends about 2 hours in a total day basking, and its not all at once its off and on throughout the day

[Robyn@SYR]

My apologies to Robyn, for I know this is not the way you like things handled, but I find this situation frustrating and ridiculous, not to mention the effect it will have on monitors kept by new keepers naively following that 'care information' they've just found online.

LOL, you don't have to apologize to me, and I don't have any issue with the replies of the last few pages, not at all. It does seem that Frank has left for good though, and that is a bummer.

I was hoping for some actual dialogue with him, maybe we will get another chance in the future.

[crocdoc]

No worries, Robyn!

I was hoping for some actual dialogue with him, maybe we will get another chance in the future.
'Dialogue' suggests a two-way exchange of information/ideas. I suspect that's not Frank's forte.

[lady_bug87]

I don't think that's the case.... I just don't think he doesn't like being wrong... or outdated

[crocdoc]

Same thing. A two way exchange of information is exactly that.

A one way flow of information is one person telling everyone else what's 'right' and not accepting any information flow in the other direction.

[infernalis]

Hence why he has a blog rather than a forum.

A blog is one sided, and the blog owner can accept or reject comments.

A forum is an exchange of ideas and information.