Rescued Nile Monitor. Need advice.

[Vegasarah]

Went and rescued this little Nile Monitor this morning. He looks like he is at least in decent health. He is active and very defensive. Posturing, tail curling and hissing. He is about 6 inches snout to vent.

I was told he was being kept with no supplemental heat sources for the last week or so because the bulb burned out and the guy that had him didn't feel like getting a new one. He's been eating 3 pinkies and 3 goldfish a week for the last month. He lived in a 20 gallon fish tank. The guy that had him only had him for a month so that's about all the history I have on him.

I breed meal worms and dubia roaches, and I also have 3 pinkies and 3 fuzzies in the freezer. Went out today and bought 4 small minnows. I'm going to wait a day or two to even try and feed him, he will probably be too stressed to manage eating anything before then anyway.

He's in a 55 gallon on towels for right now till I can get his fecal done this week. If he's got a parasite load I've got to be able to contain it, treat it, and not spread it to any of my other reptiles. He's got a 150 watt bulb in there, basking spot at around 120. Cool end with soaking water dish around 78. A few plastic and cardboard hides, plus he can kind of burrow down in the towels. I've covered the top of the tank with tin foil to keep in humidity and it's between 40%-60%. The ambient air temp is at 72.

When should I try feeding and what should I start with? Anything I should change? Any and all advice is very much appreciated. Thank you all in advance!

[SpOoKy]

Substrate! get substrate in there. Sand soil mix. How are you measuring basking temp? You are able to achieve 120 on a towel?
He also needs to be in a larger enclosure...what about the you mentioned in the other thread?

The cage I would make would be 10 feet long, but I was asking if my 8x2x2 is okay for right now while I actually get planning and building and funding the adult enclosure? He's only 16 inches long. One month in the 8x2x2... would it be horrible? I'm one for giving maximum comfort to my reptiles.

Cool end with soaking water dish around 78.
The ambient air temp is at 72.

^ How are all your temps being measured, this is a little confusing?

btw, he is a cutie

[infernalis]

The screen top has to go.

Once you get it in a sealed up cage with some heat and dirt, you can start feeding it every day.

Right now it's still baby size, so feeding to total satiation every day will promote optimal growth and get some size on it.

Seems an odd time of year for it to be so small, so I would wager a guess that it's quite underfed at this point.

I doubt there is a parasite load, ten bucks says it originated as a "farmed" egg, and these animals are simply just not born with parasites.

Further, These "parasites" cannot leave the host (monitor) and travel over to your other animals.

The other animals would have to consume the feces of the monitor.

If you put that nile in a cage set up exactly like my Savannah Monitor cage, except with a bigger water bowl and maybe a few feet longer, that lizard will start to behave like a wild monitor, and start eating up a storm.

And the plus side is, if it were carrying any parasites, they would eventually die off as they grew old and the cycle breaks.

Parasites and Varanids (http://www.savannahmonitor.co/parasites/)

Give that page a read, it explains the parasites in depth,.

[Vegasarah]

The 150 watt bulb is only like 8 inches away from the towel, so the glass right under the towel is like 110 so the towel is toasty warm. At least that's what my temp gun is saying. The cool end I'm pointing my temp gun down there and getting 78. The hydrometer I have on the side of the tank measures ambient temperature which is reading 72. Are these temps okay?

The screen is covered by tin foil, it's keeping in humidity pretty well. It's not permanent though.

I am getting that 8x2x2 up and going and full of soil/ sand. Got a brand new kitty litter pan for the water bowl, it will be big enough for sure. I need to get some plexi glass for the top of that tank, though. It's hinged screened doors on the top. What mix of sand/ soil should I use? 20/80? 30/70?

[SpOoKy]

What mix of sand/ soil should I use? 20/80? 30/70?

I use 50/50 sand soil for my sav. Best thing to do is start mixing and adding water until you can make a sand ball like a snow ball. This consistency is the best for holding burrows. I know BB uses 50/50 soil/peat moss i think.

[infernalis]

when it looks like this, it's perfect.....

http://www.savannahmonitor.net/husbandry/dirtball.jpg

http://www.savannahmonitor.net/husbandry/moist.jpg

[Vegasarah]

Sand goes against everything in my nature as a herp keeper. I know the risk of impaction from sand is very possible, and it kind of scares me. I would love to try the soil/peat because that's already what I keep some of my reptiles on that thrive in high humidity. It holds moisture really well, and I am familiar with it. It's good for burrowing, my tortoise has dug a nice burrow that he sleeps in every night.

So I got thinking about my tortoise, which is also a bit misunderstood in the pet trade. A lot of people have been given bad advice on how to raise them, thinking that because they come from Africa, they should be put on sand in hot dry conditions. As it turns out, in the wild, they spend much of their lives in underground burrows that are very humid. So what we as keepers now do with them is keep them in a 'closed chamber' enclosure ( just like a monitor) that is sealed to keep in heat and humidity. And the peat/soil substrate is used often. A 'humid hide' is also created in which they are encouraged to sleep in at night by heating it. My tortoise, like some, has also dug a burrow within this humid hide that he sleeps in every night.

Would something like this be beneficial to a monitor? A Ceramic Heat Emitter for night time use that is contained within a humid hide with peat moss bass and then packed with spanugum moss so that the humidity is at 85+% (what it is in my tort's hide/ burrow)? I've even heard of keepers attaching natural sponge inside the hide and getting humidity up in the 90's. The heat attracts them to the hide and the humidity is great for them to sleep in for their health. Has anyone ever tried this? Would it probably just be ripped apart? I'm mentally planning a large Rubbermaid bin in a corner or maybe even something built right into the permanent enclosure?

Would 50/50 soil and peat moss be good?

[jarich]

If you were keeping it on just sand, that would be a problem, but not a humid soil/sand mix. The 60/40 (or 50/50) mix is so the soil holds a burrow better and also keeps from getting super compacted over time. Monitors seem to have an uncanny ability to know if the soil is going to be right for them even without digging. Don't worry, if you get the heat up and the humidity up, its not going to get impacted by the sand. The best and most experienced monitor keepers/breeders have been using this soil/sand mix for decades, so dont just take our word for it.

You'll also notice when you start feeding that these animals actually use the ground to help subdue their prey. Basically they grab the prey and then smash it into the dirt until its dead, then eat it. So they are used to getting dirty food and passing it out the other end without issue.

[EmbraceCalamity]

If you were keeping it on just sand, that would be a problem, but not a humid soil/sand mix. The 60/40 (or 50/50) mix is so the soil holds a burrow better and also keeps from getting super compacted over time. Monitors seem to have an uncanny ability to know if the soil is going to be right for them even without digging. Don't worry, if you get the heat up and the humidity up, its not going to get impacted by the sand. The best and most experienced monitor keepers/breeders have been using this soil/sand mix for decades, so dont just take our word for it.

You'll also notice when you start feeding that these animals actually use the ground to help subdue their prey. Basically they grab the prey and then smash it into the dirt until its dead, then eat it. So they are used to getting dirty food and passing it out the other end without issue.Are there animals that can become impacted on regular sand if the rest of the husbandry is correct? I've asked around and never heard of it, but I'd be curious to know if there are any actual cases of it. I know calcium sand is an issue because it clumps when it gets wet and they often lick it to get more calcium, but regular sand doesn't have either of those particular issues, so I'm curious to know if it's still happened.

~Maggot

[jarich]

The problem is that for most animals, you cant have all of the husbandry correct if they are on just sand.

Ive heard of bearded dragons becoming impacted on sand when they are young. Never had it happen personally, but others have mentioned it.

[EmbraceCalamity]

The problem is that for most animals, you cant have all of the husbandry correct if they are on just sand.

Ive heard of bearded dragons becoming impacted on sand when they are young. Never had it happen personally, but others have mentioned it.Well I meant temps and supplementation and such, for example with beardies. Wouldn't they be able to pass it if all of that was right or no?

~Maggot

[jarich]

I'll be honest, to me it seems like they should be able to also. However I don't have much experience with beardeds, I've only had mine for about a year now.

[EmbraceCalamity]

I'll be honest, to me it seems like they should be able to also. However I don't have much experience with beardeds, I've only had mine for about a year now.I guess it's hard to say because most people who know about proper care and husbandry probably wouldn't be using sand because of the concerns that have been raised about it. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they couldn't pass it if other things weren't right. Just not sure about if things were right.

Anyway, Vegasarah, sorry to hijack the thread. Just was curious. For the record, I was happy when I saw this thread. :)

~Maggot

[SpOoKy]

Impaction is a captive issue more then a wild issue. I have always kept my beadies on loose substrate since they have been tiny. With proper husbandry (most importantly basking temps), impaction should not be a worry. As for monitors, I find my sav will lung for a feeder and get a mouth full of sub. It comes back out the other end as fast as it went in :)

[varanus_mad]

Niloticus should be kept identical to waynes savs...

simples,

Impaction from soil/sand does not happen in varanids ive never seen it in 7yrs of being a varanophile.

I have seen impaction from orchird bark...

still not sure why people mix this into the substrate,

anyway.

130-150f basking spot

75f cool end

90f hot end

12" min of soil/sand, the peat mixture will be naff as that nile gets bigger the walls dont hold up structurally.

Foodwise, shed loads of whole foods i.e. the whole mouse/rat/fish/invertebrate.

Keep it in a viv with no vents

Humidity should range from 20 - 100 (100 will be in the burrows 20 under the basking lights.

Have fun niles are a great species for the right people.

[varanus_mad]

I'll be honest, to me it seems like they should be able to also. However I don't have much experience with beardeds, I've only had mine for about a year now.

I know a few keepers who keep uros and beardeds identical to the way they keep there monitors...

Im yet to hear of them report on any issues of impaction or any other miscellanous problems.

[Pirarucu]

If the animal is properly hydrated and has sufficient basking temperatures, impaction is a myth.
My brother's Uromastyx has a basking temperature of ~200F, and was kept on nothing but playsand until recently. No impactions, and it wasn't even well hydrated. The substrate was finally changed when I convinced my brother to actually listen to his animal, which was spending almost all of its time in its underground cork log, and had some problems with its toes. Now it is on a moist clay-filled soil, which it promptly burrowed in.

[infernalis]

I have seen my monitors ingest mouths full of sandy dirt, they just make really dirty poop.

If there is insufficient internal moisture to digest properly, things get stuck.

With a well lubed (hydrated) digestive tract, stuff passes through as it should.

[Vegasarah]

Thanks everyone for the advice. To answer someones question, I am part of other forums where I have seen sand inpaction in a variety of tortoises, bearded dragons, and even blue tongue skinks. I have seen documentation if all three of these species dying because of it. Yes, they may have had other improper husbandry issues that caused this to happen. But my question is why take the risk? I guss if it would be detrimental to the monitor to not be on sand, I would go ahead and change it. This is a personal preference, and I'm certainly not saying that anyone who uses sand is wrong. I was just excited at the idea that I could use something other than sand with no ill effects. So what you all are saying now is that the peat / soil mix would not work? Just trying to be clear, thanks everyone.

So no comments on the humid hide? Lol everyone got caught up in my sand sentence and no one said anything about my hide haha. Any advice or help with that is much appreciated!

I'm going to try feeding some monitor bites just for supplementation and a pinkie for food today. I will let everyone know how it goes :)

[jarich]

Thanks everyone for the advice. To answer someones question, I am part of other forums where I have seen sand inpaction in a variety of tortoises, bearded dragons, and even blue tongue skinks. I have seen documentation if all three of these species dying because of it. Yes, they may have had other improper husbandry issues that caused this to happen. But my question is why take the risk? I guss if it would be detrimental to the monitor to not be on sand, I would go ahead and change it. This is a personal preference, and I'm certainly not saying that anyone who uses sand is wrong. I was just excited at the idea that I could use something other than sand with no ill effects. So what you all are saying now is that the peat / soil mix would not work? Just trying to be clear, thanks everyone.

So no comments on the humid hide? Lol everyone got caught up in my sand sentence and no one said anything about my hide haha. Any advice or help with that is much appreciated!

I'm going to try feeding some monitor bites just for supplementation and a pinkie for food today. I will let everyone know how it goes :)

I do not think the peat/soil mix will work as well, no.

With the sand/soil substrate, the humid hide becomes a moot point. They will burrow out a humid hide themselves in the substrate that stays as humid as anything you might build them. What you were describing is often used for a nesting box however. So depending on if you have a female or not, it might be useful in the future.

[Vegasarah]

With the sand/soil substrate, the humid hide becomes a moot point. They will burrow out a humid hide themselves in the substrate that stays as humid as anything you might build them. What you were describing is often used for a nesting box however. So depending on if you have a female or not, it might be useful in the future.



Thanks, that is a good point. Would he start burrowing right away as a baby?



I will do the 50/50 sand and soil in the 8x2x2. Obviously that would only leave a foot for walking around etc. Could I sort of bank the substrate up on one side and have it be a little more shallow on the other? That way the deep end can be like 18 inches or more but he still has some space to move around on the other side or climb or whatever.

[Pirarucu]

I do not believe the peat would aid in holding a burrow, and would advise mixing in some sand. 50/50 sand/soil isn't as sandy as it sounds. It's important to note that we are not talking about just digging a hole as I believe tortoises do. Monitors will construct a system of burrows throughout the cage.
All in all it depends on the soil you're using. If you're digging up your own, you may be able to find some soil that will hold a burrow as it is. Other times you will need to mix in some sand to help it hold a burrow. Store bought soil will usually need to have sand added.
The basic test is to get it moist and ball it up. It should clump and stick together easily. Once you have a ball of dirt, jab your thumb into it. It should crumble right away.
If you are searching for a spot to dig some up, look for a spot free of chemicals with lots of fire ant mounds. The dirt fire ants like is invariably perfect for monitors.

Yes, he will probably start burrowing right away, though you may not see the entrances. They can be good at disguising them.. Yes you could do that, but bear in mind he may rearrange it to some degree.

[War Machine]

8x2x2 is no where the right space, but will do for now :) PLEASE follow through with the sand/soil. It is crucial to Monitor care.

As far as ingesting it, my albigs generally tong feed, but sometimes they whip (soaking wet) rats around and it escapes them then gets covered in dirt, Dozens of times, not one issue. The key is temps, VERY hot temps.

Oh, enjoy this, and you new found "friend" :P

Feral Niles - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MsUaNNeD2LQ)

[Vegasarah]

Okay, thanks for the advice. Yeah tortoises just kind of dig a deep long hole with one entrance. The picture that Wayne posted about the 'ball' of soil was helpful, I know what I'm going for now as far as consistency.

I'm glad I was able to take him out of the situation he was in, but I want to provide him with the best care I can. I'm probably not going to keep this guy for the rest of his life, but I will be constructing his adult sized enclosure and will only adopt him out to someone who I deem responsible. Obviously the enclosure will go with him, along with all the knowledge on how to care for him. I've done rescues before and I am picky about who I adopt to. So I will probably keep him for a little while to get him where he needs to be health-wise and enclosure-wise and then start putting out feelers to people I know in the reptile world. Or I might get too attached, which is a very real possibility because he is just really cool :)

He didn't seem interested in the monitor bites or the pinkie. I even tried walking away for about an hour and still nothing. So I took out the pinkie and bites and then tried very slowly feeding him some dubia roaches from tongs. At first he was just angry and defensive, but I just kept my hand in there very still and just talked to him quietly and then he calmed down. He was checking out my hand, smelling it and I was afraid he was going to try and take a bite out of it but he didn't. Then I loosened the grip on the dubia so it started to move. THAT caught his eye! He sniffed at it for a second and then very carefully took it from the tongs. Munched it down in a flash! I kept talking to him, I do want to make the association that me and my voice and smell = yummies! So I tried another dubia and he had already got the message! He wasn't so slow on that one, he grabbed it and started thrashing it on the ground! He took four more from me and pounded them down. I then kept my hand resting in his cage for a minute, not touching him or anything, just so he could see it and smell it. He calmed down after the food and sprawled out in the basking spot, not paying my hand much mind. Slowly took out my hand and went to my job!

I've never had a pet who's flight or fight instinct is ALWAYS FIGHT! I love it, it's very entertaining. All my other guys would rather just ran away if they don't feel like being handled. This little fire cracker is ready to take me on! So cool! I'm going to try feeding the pinkie from the tongs tonight and see if he will take it then. Hopefully today or tomorrow I'll get a good fecal from him and get it to the lab.

The 8x2x2 is now cleaned out and ready to go, I just need to get the soil and sand tomorrow. I'm assuming that I can get what I need from Home Depot? I'm not going to dig up my yard, and I live in a city so I have no idea what has and has not been treated with pesticides or fertilizers. I'm going to have to buy both from the store, so what does everyone recommend? Play sand, but should I just get regular old top soil or is there something better? Brand names or descriptions are much appreciated. Thanks!

[dinosaurdammit]

If no one has mentioned this:

LEAVE IT ALONE. Dont try and handle it, dont try to touch/bother/molest it. Best thing that can happen for it is its left alone, caged right, and left the hell alone.

[Vegasarah]

8x2x2 is no where the right space, but will do for now :) PLEASE follow through with the sand/soil. It is crucial to Monitor care.

As far as ingesting it, my albigs generally tong feed, but sometimes they whip (soaking wet) rats around and it escapes them then gets covered in dirt, Dozens of times, not one issue. The key is temps, VERY hot temps.

Oh, enjoy this, and you new found "friend" :P

Feral Niles - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MsUaNNeD2LQ)


Thanks, I know that the 8x2x2 is not going to be big enough, but it's all I can do for right now. I'm trying to get the adult enclosure built ASAP, but I'm a broke college student so it's going to take a little time. I'm going with the sand/soil, if you guys say there are no issues the I trust you!

I've started the tong feeding, it's also my preference when feeding all my reptiles to be honest. It helps with accidental substrate ingestion, plus it's cool lol. I like interacting with my guys this way.

That's pretty much how he acts now, it's pretty crazy. It's really awesome, though. Thanks for sharing that video. Great example of how NOT tame they usually are. And so big, they can do so much damage if they want to. They definitely deserve respect.

[Vegasarah]

If no one has mentioned this:

LEAVE IT ALONE. Dont try and handle it, dont try to touch/bother/molest it. Best thing that can happen for it is its left alone, caged right, and left the hell alone.


I'm not going to ever try to pick it up or even touch it. Not only would he probably take a bite out of me, I don't want to stress him at all. As soon as he starts posturing or tail curling I just say "Okay, good boy." and stand up and walk out of the room. I would never want to cause him stress for personal enjoyment, that's not what I'm about. I doubt anyone with real love for reptiles and experience would say otherwise. If I wanted something to tame and love I would have rescued a puppy ;)

[dinosaurdammit]

I'm not going to ever try to pick it up or even touch it. Not only would he probably take a bite out of me, I don't want to stress him at all. As soon as he starts posturing or tail curling I just say "Okay, good boy." and stand up and walk out of the room. I would never want to cause him stress for personal enjoyment, that's not what I'm about. I doubt anyone with real love for reptiles and experience would say otherwise. If I wanted something to tame and love I would have rescued a puppy ;)

I just know from watching some people locally that they think "if i force handle it enough it will HAVE to like me", no- no it wont, it will hold a grudge and if it lives and if it gets big enough it will maul you.

[infernalis]

If I wanted something to tame and love I would have rescued a puppy ;)

Standing ovation...!!!

[Vegasarah]

Okay, got another question. After doing some scouring and searching around about lighting/ heat I keep seeing this popping up:

"Leave the basking lights on 24/7! Many successful breeders do this."

I'm really suspicious of this... so then I start a google search and it's popping up everywhere. Is this a real thing??? If so, that's kind of awesome because it means that I don't have to go crazy on the CHE's trying to heat the enclosure at night! I can't imagine this not being harmful to the monitor? Do they not benefit from a 'cool down' period at night and darkness to help them regulate themselves as they would in the wild? This is so fascinating to me, I hope I can get some answers on this before tonight so I know what to do!

[infernalis]

I leave my basking lights on 24/7.

My lizards sleep in their burrows, so the lights being on don't matter at all.

I also notice them out and about sometimes at 2:00 am, 3:00 am, they don't care about clocks.

[Pirarucu]

They will sleep in their cool burrows anyways, lights on or off makes no difference. What it does allow them to do is heat up at any time if they want to. Effectively it improves on wild conditions by removing the factor of limited heat, just as the factors of limited food and other resources are eliminated in captivity.

That said, it is fine to turn the lights off as well. It's more important to leave them on when multiple monitors are housed together. That way if one is more dominant than the other, they can just establish different sleeping schedules and still have access to heat, instead of competing for it.

[Vegasarah]

This is wonderful news. I'm going to try it! I have such an odd sleeping schedule, how great would it be to see one of my animals up and running around at 3 am! I'm going to make sure he has lots of hides to go under to get away from the light if he wants to. Maybe one near the light so it's still darker but warmer if he wanted to get some sleep but still stay toasty warm. Thank you everyone!

[infernalis]

Maybe one near the light so it's still darker but warmer if he wanted to get some sleep but still stay toasty warm. Thank you everyone!

It's common for them to hide under the basking light.

I find mine hiding under the basking spot frequently.

[Vegasarah]

So today he ate:

20 small, medium dubia roaches
15 meal worms
1 fuzzy mouse

Kept offering those meal worms one at a time till he didn't seem interested in them any more. He ate a few dubias around noon, a few more around 3, then 5 meal worms at 8 pm along with the fuzzy, the rest of the dubias, and then 10 meal worms in a row. This seems like a lot of food for something so small! I understand he's growing but is this going to be like a daily amount? And should I just keep doing this every day, feeding from tongs till he doesn't seem interested?

I enjoy the interaction with him.It's funny how the first few roaches he's so angry that my hand is in there and then by the 10th roach he's practically climbing up my arm and totally ignoring it lol.

So moral dilemma: I can get live pinkies and fuzzies from a pet shop near me for about $.75- $1 each. Petco sells frozen for $2 each. I prefer f/t because I feel bad for the mice, but that price is kind of making me re-think this. I know that with some animals feeding live prey makes them attack anything moving and pink (like fingers!). Is this the same with monitors? Anyone know of a good place to buy frozens for a good price?

I know, I know, I'm being kind of a pansy with the mice but I just hate to see them die like that :(

[Pirarucu]

Yep. Give him as much as he wants, they have crazy metabolisms. A monitor can easily tell the difference between your finger and a rat pink. He'll try to eat both of them anyways, but he knows the difference. LOL.

[infernalis]

Yes it will eat daily, and the amount will be going up and up.

My lizards are only 30 inches long, and I have seen them eat nearly their own body mass in food within one sitting.

Heck, one time when they were still around the 20 inch mark, I watched Littlefoot slam 4 baby rats, six jumbo shrimp, 15 night crawlers and he still acted hungry.

The smart thing to do with mice is order them in bulk from a place like Rodent Pro, Mice Direct or Layne Labs. (google any of them)

You will have to order like $200 worth of frozen mice at once for it to be a bargain, but it will get you hundreds of feeders all at once at about 30 cents a mouse.

Don't let the shipping deter you, when I order 800 feeders at a time, I divide the shipping by 800, and it's mere cents per mouse for shipping.

If you only order 100 mice, the shipping makes them cost a lot more, the bigger the order, the bigger the bargain on shipping.

Another plus is that you can get day old baby chicks in the same order.

Baby chicks are an excellent monitor food.

[Vegasarah]

There is a reptile expo coming to town soon and apparently they are advertising those prices but obviously no shipping! Woooo! And one of the large booths has quail and chickens too, which is awesome. I just dont think I will be able to handle feeding live mice, so I will just deal with the petco prices for now til I can stock up from the expo. So far I've got meal worms, dubia roaches, pink and fuzzy mice, and minnow. I will be adding baby quail and chickens, what else can I add? Where do I find other whole prey items like bigger fish than a tiny minnow? And with shrimp and crabs and crayfish can I just buy what they sell for people to east in the freezer section? Or should I try and find done place that sells these seafood items whole?
Night crawlers are the ones used for fishing bait, but the only place I know of that sells those is walmart and I'm pretty sure they are treated with chemicals to preserve them for longer. I wouldn't really want to feed that to my monitor. Where do you guys get your worms?

[Corey209]

There is a reptile expo coming to town soon and apparently they are advertising those prices but obviously no shipping! Woooo! And one of the large booths has quail and chickens too, which is awesome. I just dont think I will be able to handle feeding live mice, so I will just deal with the petco prices for now til I can stock up from the expo. So far I've got meal worms, dubia roaches, pink and fuzzy mice, and minnow. I will be adding baby quail and chickens, what else can I add? Where do I find other whole prey items like bigger fish than a tiny minnow? And with shrimp and crabs and crayfish can I just buy what they sell for people to east in the freezer section? Or should I try and find done place that sells these seafood items whole?
Night crawlers are the ones used for fishing bait, but the only place I know of that sells those is walmart and I'm pretty sure they are treated with chemicals to preserve them for longer. I wouldn't really want to feed that to my monitor. Where do you guys get your worms?

Wait until it rains and dig them up!

[infernalis]

Night crawlers are the ones used for fishing bait, but the only place I know of that sells those is walmart and I'm pretty sure they are treated with chemicals to preserve them for longer. I wouldn't really want to feed that to my monitor. Where do you guys get your worms?

I buy Night Crawlers at wal mart all the time.

There is no chemicals on them.

DMF Bait (http://www.dmfbait.com/)

The above link is the worm farmers who supply Wal Mart. Look up whatever you need to know. :)

Quote from web site.....

Can DMF Bait be used as pet food?
DMF Bait is very nutritious and healthy as pet food. Please review each product description specifically to see if it may fit your need.

[jarich]

Crayfish are, in my opinion, the best food source and generally pretty cheap too. You should be able to get them about 3 for $5 at Petco. Look on CL too as there are many people who sell off their extra. If you happen to have an extra fish tank around (say 20 gallons or more) then they breed rather easily too. When it gets bigger, you can buy them in bulk (by the pound) for even cheaper.

Id probably not bother anymore with the mealworms. They arent a particularly good food source, and not worth the hassle. Go with the roaches and worms as they are much healthier and you can feed them right up to adulthood.

[Vegasarah]

Wait until it rains and dig them up!

I live in the arid desert, there's no night crawlers in our soil. Not to mention it rains here maybe 10 days a year lol. Everything here is imported, including every single food other than pork meat. We have one pig farm outside the city and that's about it! ;)

[Vegasarah]

Crayfish are, in my opinion, the best food source and generally pretty cheap too. You should be able to get them about 3 for $5 at Petco. Look on CL too as there are many people who sell off their extra. If you happen to have an extra fish tank around (say 20 gallons or more) then they breed rather easily too. When it gets bigger, you can buy them in bulk (by the pound) for even cheaper.

Id probably not bother anymore with the mealworms. They arent a particularly good food source, and not worth the hassle. Go with the roaches and worms as they are much healthier and you can feed them right up to adulthood.


Thanks for the info on the crayfish, I didn't know they sold them at Petco. I searched craigslist, no luck. But then again I would think the closest place to catch crayfish is probably not even in this state. I wish had the opportunity to just go in my backyard and catch my food. Unless they can live on a diet of scorpions, that's probably not going to happen lol.

Where can I buy them by the pound? Like at walmart frozen or do I have to look elsewhere? What about shrimp? Can I just do the jumbo shrimp sold in bags at walmart?

I've never had a reptile that eats like this, so I'm sorry if these questions seem stupid.

Wayne- thanks for the info on the walmart worms! Someone told me years ago that they had chemicals on them so I never risked it! It's going to be a new diet addition to many different animals I keep now ;)

[jarich]

The questions arent stupid at all, and thank you for asking. Would much rather have someone asking all these questions than just guessing and ending up with a sick monitor. Keep it up!

As for the crayfish, sorry I shouldve been more specific. The ones you buy by the pound are usually live shipped in from Louisiana or somewhere down south. They are actually meant for people, hence why the weigh them by the pound.

The crayfish that I have bought on CL or other places like that are from fish keepers. (thats where you'll find them at Petco/pet stores too...in the fish tanks) They usually start out with a crayfish or two and then end up having tons of babies. Its nice because they are then just looking to get rid of them and will sell them for cheap. I bought 25 for $10 last time I found them on CL.

[DiscoPat]

Where can I buy them by the pound? Like at walmart frozen or do I have to look elsewhere? What about shrimp? Can I just do the jumbo shrimp sold in bags at walmart?

I wouldn't risk trying to feed him frozen shrimp meant for human consumption. The preservatives may be a problem for the monitor.

Unless someone can tell you for sure that it is safe I wouldn't risk it.

[infernalis]

Any seafood items must be certified organic, chemical free.

(Much like your concern with the Wal Mart worms)

Frozen seafood is commonly treated with a nasty chemical called SodiumTripolyPhosphate, the same chemical used in dish detergents, laundry soap and car washing fluid.

That's right, I won't even eat that rubbish.

The abbreviation for this chemical is STPP, it's listed right on the bag.

Too bad, I can get a huge bag of shrimp at Wal Mart for $5, but it causes organ damage in reptiles. Soooo I am forced to buy the $13 per pound organic stuff.

Phosphates in food! (http://www.savannahmonitor.co/stpp/)

I have lost a few reptiles over this in the past, and it's a horrible way to die.

I agree, ask all you want, it's for the best.

[infernalis]

I wouldn't risk trying to feed him frozen shrimp meant for human consumption. The preservatives may be a problem for the monitor.

Unless someone can tell you for sure that it is safe I wouldn't risk it.

Kudos to you for paying attention. ;)

[DiscoPat]

Kudos to you for paying attention. ;)

Thanks. Also what brand is the organic brand that you would recommend? Or will pretty much any organic brand work?

[infernalis]

Thanks. Also what brand is the organic brand that you would recommend? Or will pretty much any organic brand work?

There is no branding, I buy it at a seafood counter off the shaved ice on display. (BTW $11 a pound, oops)

http://www.savannahmonitor.net/husbandry/shrimps.jpg

[Vegasarah]

What about if I buy the shrimp from whole foods or somewhere that they will be organic? And should I be looking for shrimp and crayfish that still have all their legs and head and all that stuff? Or are the ones with just the human-edible parts okay? I think there is a place that sells whole seafood stuff near my house. What other kind of fish should I be looking for? Would fresh sardines on ice be okay?

[jarich]

You ideally want the ones with their organs, legs, heads, etc. All those extras contain a lot of the good nutrients of those food items. The meat itself is just ok... the meat with the shell, head, organs, etc is great!

[infernalis]

Sadly the only ones I can get are decapitated, everything else is there.

But at $11 a pound, I only give them as treats.

Not real sure about fresh sardines, I never tried them.

[jarich]

Ya, $11 a pound is pretty pricey reptile food! I imagine your two would mow down a bag pretty fast as well.

Do you feed fish regularly to yours Wayne? Ive never actually fed mine fish.

[infernalis]

Whenever I have leftovers from feeding my Thamnophis, I offer whats left to the lizards, and they scoop it right up. (Organic trout is not cheap either, but after watching snakes convulse to death from STPP poisoning, I refuse to feed anything else but organic.)

Littlefoot will dive into the water dish and grab live fish right up, Cera ignores them.

Cut up, they both take it... But I bet I could get them to try and eat leggos if I offered them on tongs.

[jarich]

Ha! Ya, definitely true! Its more of the "eat first, ask questions later" kind of thing with monitors.

[Vegasarah]

Cut up, they both take it... But I bet I could get them to try and eat leggos if I offered them on tongs.

That is hilarious, my bearded dragons are like that. They hate eating their greens but if I do one dubia, one bit of green, one dubia, one green. Back and forth like that and I can trick them into it lol.

I don't even know if he's going to eat the fish, which is weird because that is one of the only things he ate for a month (goldfish)... Just offered those minnows and he would not take them. Maybe I should try live minnows instead, they could live in his water dish for probably a few days, maybe more if I feed them and oxygenate the water. Could provide some mental stimulation as well.

In the wild they can stay submerged under water for like an hour, I bet they are great fish hunters!

[Aanayab1]

Um.... You rock for taking on the task of raising this little guy!!!! Won't be little for long and are you sure you're not keeping him his whole life ;) you seem quite fond of monitor behaviors :D

My Ackies are my equivilant to some people's crack addiction haha
I can't hardly be gone an hour and I'm curious as to what they may be up to now.

[Vegasarah]

I would love to keep him forever but I'm just not sure that I have the space to give him a really great enclosure for his adult life. I want to do what is best for the animal, and the rescue that I am working with has a very large enclosure that can be modified to suit his needs. But for right now he's just a little guy so I'm enjoying him and his behavior! Only time will tell :)

[Vegasarah]

Well, the roaches and the fuzzies seem to be the big winners for Django. (Yeah, we named him after we went and saw that movie lol)

He's refusing minnows alive, dead, from tongs, or in his water pan. It's kind of frustrating, I was hoping he would be more into them if he got to hunt them. He also totally is ignoring those expensive 'monitor bites', even off the tongs.

He likes the dubias and any mice offered, and will eat a bunch in a row without losing interest. I'm feeding him twice a day, usually 8-10 dubias and a fuzzy around noon. Then two more fuzzies and as many dubias as he wants till he seems full (about 5 more or so).

Temps and humidity are where they should be, but he is still in the 55 gallon till Sunday when I'm not working or going to school. Text book were bought this week so I'm out like $350 till I get paid tomorrow. So come Sunday he will be in the 8x2x2 with 50/50 sand/soil, 150 watt bulb, large water dish, and as much food as he can eat.

A few more questions:

Does he need a uva/uvb bulb? I would assume yes, but would just one single coil bulb work or should I think about a strip light or even a mercury vapor with heat?

Should I be worried about putting some kind of guard on the heat light? I think he can reach it, it's inside a dome fixture hanging inside his tank. Is there are risk of him burning himself or will he have the smarts not to touch it?

Thanks everyone, hope to get some answers soon!

[infernalis]

Well, the roaches and the fuzzies seem to be the big winners for Django. (Yeah, we named him after we went and saw that movie lol)

He's refusing minnows alive, dead, from tongs, or in his water pan. It's kind of frustrating, I was hoping he would be more into them if he got to hunt them. He also totally is ignoring those expensive 'monitor bites', even off the tongs.

He likes the dubias and any mice offered, and will eat a bunch in a row without losing interest. I'm feeding him twice a day, usually 8-10 dubias and a fuzzy around noon. Then two more fuzzies and as many dubias as he wants till he seems full (about 5 more or so).

Temps and humidity are where they should be, but he is still in the 55 gallon till Sunday when I'm not working or going to school. Text book were bought this week so I'm out like $350 till I get paid tomorrow. So come Sunday he will be in the 8x2x2 with 50/50 sand/soil, 150 watt bulb, large water dish, and as much food as he can eat.

A few more questions:

Does he need a uva/uvb bulb? I would assume yes, but would just one single coil bulb work or should I think about a strip light or even a mercury vapor with heat?

Should I be worried about putting some kind of guard on the heat light? I think he can reach it, it's inside a dome fixture hanging inside his tank. Is there are risk of him burning himself or will he have the smarts not to touch it?

Thanks everyone, hope to get some answers soon!

Oh well, no interest in fish..
Monitor bites are junk.
UV not needed
a Mercury vapour lamp will way overheat a cage of thw dimensions you described.

simple halogen flood lights like they sell at Wal Mart.

Standard practice is to hang lights like mine are, example below.

Reason being, Monitors will fiddle with the lights no matter what you do, and a bulb guard gives them something to get hold of, so you want to omit any hoods, guards or cages around the bulb.

This way, when the lizard attempts to mess with it, the bulb just swings out of the way.

http://www.savannahmonitor.net/DEC/ceratreepose.jpg

[Vegasarah]

Oh well, no interest in fish..
Monitor bites are junk.
UV not needed
a Mercury vapour lamp will way overheat a cage of thw dimensions you described.

simple halogen flood lights like they sell at Wal Mart.

Standard practice is to hang lights like mine are, example below.

Reason being, Monitors will fiddle with the lights no matter what you do, and a bulb guard gives them something to get hold of, so you want to omit any hoods, guards or cages around the bulb.

This way, when the lizard attempts to mess with it, the bulb just swings out of the way.

http://www.savannahmonitor.net/DEC/ceratreepose.jpg

I am disappointed about the fish, I'll maybe try them again later. And the monitor bites were really more because he was so disinterested in food on day one I was trying to just get him to eat something. But I of course read the ingredient list before I even bought them and knew they weren't too good.

Oh, that makes a lot of sense. Will the halogen lights need ceramic fixtures still? Or can I just use regular plastic ones? The reason I ask is because I have a bunch of old plastic fixtures lying around that are probably just going to be donated if I can't figure out a use for them. This of course is going to
be for the final adult enclosure build, because I'm going to try and really pile that substrate up in the 8x2x2 to give him more room to burrow. It will be banked up on the hot side a little more, and the lights will be actually outside of the tank on top of the plexiglass with holes in it just big enough for the lights. Does this make sense? If I bank up the substrate to 18 inches then there wouldn't be enough clearance to hang the light safely in the 6 inches left. But if it was above on the plexiglass it would be safely out of reach and it would clear up that space. Or am I thinking too much into this and should just have a base of only 12 inches all the way across? Just trying to do the best I can for this guy with what I have.

[infernalis]

I recommend the ceramic, You could probably get away with the plastic, since they are rated at 60 watts and you will be running 45 or 50 watts, but these bubs do get hot, even the low wattage ones, and the humidity takes it's toll on them too.

If you don't mind wiring, the cheapest ceramic sockets are at home depot, buy the $3 garage light replacement sockets, sold where the wire nuts, motion lights and zip ties are located.

If you hate wiring, then Wal Mart sells a brooding fixture for $10. remove the aluminum hood and do something else with it, or toss it in your recycling bin.

Then you have an 8 foot plug in cord with a ceramic socket already pre wired.

[DiscoPat]

I got a nice ceramic fixture at Lowes for $3 on the clearance rack It looks similar to Wayne's but it has a clip on it. Check on the discount racks. Make sure to ask why it is discounted though sometimes the stuff on the racks is slightly dysfunctional.

[Vegasarah]

I'm good with wiring, I've updated all the lighting in my house all by myself. And I re-wire any lamp cords that my roommate's rabbit chews, and that's pretty often (stupid bunny).

I'll go with the ceramic, and I always check discount racks when I go to Home Depot etc! That's how I got all those plastic fixtures for so cheap!

For my current set up would 3 of the 40 watt halogen bulbs get that basking temp up high enough for me? More? Less? When I build the adult enclosure I will get more for sure.

[infernalis]

A trio may overheat a smaller cage, and since your Nile is a young/small animal, one or two will probably get the temps you need.

[Vegasarah]

Went on my Home Depot trip today and picked up all my stuff!

Got the ceramic fixtures for like $2.50. But for now in the 8x2x2 I'm going to have the light fixture outside of the tank to give him some extra room. But they will go into the larger build. Got the flood lights for them as well.

Got the plexiglass for the top of the tank, got it cut to size, got the hole cut for the light to sit on. I was afraid he would get out through the hole so I laid the screen from another tank over the hole and I put a rock on top. Probably just paranoid but better safe than sorry! It's holding humidity like a champ, I'm very happy with how well that is going. The humidity is holding at 80% on the cool side and 25% on the hot side.

Got the soil/ sand in there, got it moist and it's easily balled up like the picture you showed me, Wayne. I only did a foot of soil on the hot side and it's about 4 inches on the cool/ shallow side. I added some climbing stuff, two hides, and an extra large kitty litter pan for a pond. He spent some time exploring that.

Funny story, he finally ate those minnows because I was gone for so long getting all his stuff he got hungry! I went to dump the water dish and saw that all 4 of the minnows were gone! Yay!

Here's a bad cell phone picture, but you guys can at least see his new set up.

[Vegasarah]

Found out that a place in town sells frozen rodents for cheaper than Petco, so I'm glad! I was browsing around and saw way at the top of a stack of vivariums a huge monitor scratching at the glass. I took a step back, figured he looked like a Asian Water Monitor only about 4 feet long. I asked the girl that was feeding other cages near me. Apparently someone brought him in sitting in a 40 gallon tank and just handed him over. He had burns all over his back from knocking against his heat lamp. The guys said "The person at the pet store said that as long as I kept him in a small tank he wouldn't get big. He got too big, I can't take care of him any more. Take him." The girl said that was about 2 days ago and that they are rehabbing him and he wouldn't be for sale. They put one of their big pythons on a 50% off sale so that they could free up that enclosure for him! She then told me that the day they got him, they filled up a bin with about 50 dubia roaches and just let him go crazy on them. The poor thing was so hungry that he just sat there and killed them all, any time a new one would move he would lunge at it. After he crushed them all he ate them all! I'm glad that they are keeping him and not trying to sell him for a quick buck. I also got a large light fixture there today that I thought would be good for holding one of those huge flood bulbs properly. Anyway, that's my adventure for the day!

[infernalis]

you want the deep dirt on the cool end ;)

move the light to the other end.

The way it sits now will dry out the pile, and you want the pile to be moist.

not so bad drying out the thin layer.

[Vegasarah]

you want the deep dirt on the cool end ;)

move the light to the other end.

The way it sits now will dry out the pile, and you want the pile to be moist.

not so bad drying out the thin layer.

Oh, okay, that makes sense. I thought the heat would encourage him to burrow that way. Plus because it's so close to the top of the tank the basking spot is like 130, there is steam coming off the dirt lol. Maybe if I put that piece of plexiglass on the other side it will aim more like between the green hide and the water dish. That would probably work out perfectly. I could even put some flat bricks there to get nice and hot. I will clear away the substrate first so there is no danger of burrowing under them.

[infernalis]

Oh, okay, that makes sense. I thought the heat would encourage him to burrow that way. Plus because it's so close to the top of the tank the basking spot is like 130, there is steam coming off the dirt lol. Maybe if I put that piece of plexiglass on the other side it will aim more like between the green hide and the water dish. That would probably work out perfectly. I could even put some flat bricks there to get nice and hot. I will clear away the substrate first so there is no danger of burrowing under them.

Glad to see you are thinking things through.

Monitors seem to love burrowing under things.

[Pirarucu]

Oh, okay, that makes sense. I thought the heat would encourage him to burrow that way. Plus because it's so close to the top of the tank the basking spot is like 130, there is steam coming off the dirt lol. Maybe if I put that piece of plexiglass on the other side it will aim more like between the green hide and the water dish. That would probably work out perfectly. I could even put some flat bricks there to get nice and hot. I will clear away the substrate first so there is no danger of burrowing under them.The one thing I will say is if you are using bricks for a basking spot, lay a piece of plywood on top, at least when you've measuring temps. The light will heat the bricks up hotter than wood, and you'll get a hotter reading, but the light won't get the monitor any hotter. My point is that 130F is a different basking temp depending on what the measured surface is, and even if the bricks are hitting 130, the monitor might not be.
Also, why not make the dirt deep through the whole cage?

[Vegasarah]

The one thing I will say is if you are using bricks for a basking spot, lay a piece of plywood on top, at least when you've measuring temps. The light will heat the bricks up hotter than wood, and you'll get a hotter reading, but the light won't get the monitor any hotter. My point is that 130F is a different basking temp depending on what the measured surface is, and even if the bricks are hitting 130, the monitor might not be.
Also, why not make the dirt deep through the whole cage?

Okay, I can put plywood on top. The basking spot on just the substrate is at 115 according to my temp gun, so I think a little stack of bricks like stairs would be cool for him to climb on and to get it closer to the right temp.

I just didn't want him to be cramped, if I filled up the whole tank he would only be left with like 10 inches of space to move around in. He couldn't even tripod or climb if he wanted to. Plus that would bring the water dish above the substrate so he could burrow under it and be crushed. It just made more sense to me to do it this way.

[jarich]

How handy are you with tools, Sarah?

If you have the tools, all it takes to make this a better enclosure is a bit of plywood and 2x2s. Basically, if you build a box 8x2x1.5 to put on top of the tank, youll make your life much easier. You will be able to increase the depth of the soil/sand mix by quite a bit. You will be able to seal the enclosure much better by containing the basking light and youll also be able to increase the light and heat of the substrate on the far side of the enclosure.

Your present set up will hold the humidity for a short time, but that depth of substrate will dry out pretty quickly. Then the rest of the enclosure will follow suit. Youll find in about a week that if you dont spray it heavily and daily the soil will dry out and the tank will lose its necessary humidity. Its all going to be going out the top of that light hood right now.

[Vegasarah]

How handy are you with tools, Sarah?

If you have the tools, all it takes to make this a better enclosure is a bit of plywood and 2x2s. Basically, if you build a box 8x2x1.5 to put on top of the tank, youll make your life much easier. You will be able to increase the depth of the soil/sand mix by quite a bit. You will be able to seal the enclosure much better by containing the basking light and youll also be able to increase the light and heat of the substrate on the far side of the enclosure.

Your present set up will hold the humidity for a short time, but that depth of substrate will dry out pretty quickly. Then the rest of the enclosure will follow suit. Youll find in about a week that if you dont spray it heavily and daily the soil will dry out and the tank will lose its necessary humidity. Its all going to be going out the top of that light hood right now.

Well, I'm pretty handy, I've built a lot of my furniture myself...God, I could totally do that. I can't believe it's been staring me right in the face this whole time... And it would be pretty much free to do, I've got some scrap plywood in my garage and would only have to buy a few 2x4's! Because this would just be temporary and not in contact with substrate would I still have to seal it?

The only problem I can think of is putting the water dish on top of the substrate. Wouldn't it be a danger still if he was to burrow under it?

I am going to be budgeting this next month right now so that I can see when I will be able to actually do the full build in my dining room. It might be very soon, I'm probably getting some of my tuition money back from financial aid. So the attachment for the tank might not even be needed. If it ends up being more than a month from now that I start, I'll whip up that top this week in the garage.

I've decided that I am not going to keep this monitor into adulthood, the rescue I work with has the right housing that I would struggle to provide. They raise their own feeders (dubia, mice, chickens) and they have the ability to easily care for this guy during his adult life. He's probably going to end up being a 'lifer', we will be very picky about adopting him out to anyone.

BUT in the mean time, I'm building a 6-7 feet long, 3.5 feet tall, 2 feet deep. I'll probably end up putting dividers in it and housing some more Blue Tongues in it once the Nile is gone. The rescue is encouraging me to keep the Nile while he is still a baby/ juv so that he gets at least some socialization. I'm working with him very day, three times a day so that he hopefully won't be too vicious later in life when he can do some real damage. I'm using the same techniques that Wayne's videos show on trust building and it's actually going pretty well. It's only been a week and he already doesn't flip out on me when I feed etc. Anyone else he's not too cool with, which is why every other day I'm having other people very calmly and quietly tong feed him as well. (boyfriend, roommate, best friend) So far NO handling, and I'm not even going to try touching his back for another month at least. I just am trying to make sure that everyone at the rescue can at least get in his enclosure to clean etc without being attacked! And they just don't have the time to do this with him now, so I'm going to keep him for a little while because I DO have the time.

What kind of time frame do you guys think I'm looking at as far as being too big for the build I'm doing? He can go up to the rescue when that happens, so I just want to know what everyone thinks is 'too big' for comfort. Just trying to provide the best life I can for this guy. He's by far the most work and money out of pocket I've ever put into a rescue, but totally worth it. He's a delight every day, tail whips and all lol.

[Pirarucu]

There is no such thing as "too big" for a monitor.

As for the water bowl, that's simple. Build a stand for it, so it's on top but has support under it. Like the foundation under a house.

[Vegasarah]

There is no such thing as "too big" for a monitor.

As for the water bowl, that's simple. Build a stand for it, so it's on top but has support under it. Like the foundation under a house.

No, I meant how big is too big for the monitor? One foot long? Two feet long? I mean the minimum is 8x4x4 for a full grown adult (6 feet-ish?) So when should I just give him over and stop the socialization?

[infernalis]

No, I meant how big is too big for the monitor? One foot long? Two feet long? I mean the minimum is 8x4x4 for a full grown adult (6 feet-ish?) So when should I just give him over and stop the socialization?

I figured it would be too late already...

Once they get under your skin, it's a love affair that never ends.

[Vegasarah]

I will hand him over tonight if everyone agrees that somehow it would be cruel for an animal that is 7 inches long snout to vent to live in an 7 foot enclosure.

Yeah, I really like him and I find him and all monitors fascinating, but he's a RESCUE. I took him out of the slow horrible death in a 20 gallon tank and have spent 100's on his well being. Not for my own amusement, but because I wanted to try and give him a better life.

I wouldn't be on here every single day doing all this research and asking for help if I didn't need it. I really appreciate everyone's help, I've learned a lot in the last two weeks. I am going to be a part of this animal's life for years to come, even if he doesn't live in my house. I'm always going to have an attachment to him, as I do with any foster animal. And I'm going to continue to make sure that he is being taken care of properly into his adult life.

[infernalis]

I will hand him over tonight if everyone agrees that somehow it would be cruel for an animal that is 7 inches long snout to vent to live in an 7 foot enclosure.

Yeah, I really like him and I find him and all monitors fascinating, but he's a RESCUE. I took him out of the slow horrible death in a 20 gallon tank and have spent 100's on his well being. Not for my own amusement, but because I wanted to try and give him a better life.

I wouldn't be on here every single day doing all this research and asking for help if I didn't need it. I really appreciate everyone's help, I've learned a lot in the last two weeks. I am going to be a part of this animal's life for years to come, even if he doesn't live in my house. I'm always going to have an attachment to him, as I do with any foster animal. And I'm going to continue to make sure that he is being taken care of properly into his adult life.

It's not cruel.

If you have the emotional strength, then keep him as long as you can.

I applaud you, I couldn't do it.

I have several reptiles that I have rehabbed and fell in love with, so they will be right here in my care until the end.

One of my favourite garter snakes was brought in from the wild to save her life, Once she was no longer in danger, I couldn't bring myself to let her go back into the wild... no regrets either, she's a sweetheart.

[Vegasarah]

Thanks, Wayne. I make a good foster because my fiance, while very loving towards me, isn't a huge fan of the reptiles. Hes put a cap on my numbers right now because he is very sensible and is my voice of reason when it comes to this sort of thing. His gentle reminders and questions help me stay on track. I have to let them go eventually because I "own" enough right now. I have the time to put into rehabbing and rescuing and fostering, so currently the fiance says that he is okay with it. If I didn't have him I would probably be a hoarder right now lol. Hes a great man, I'm very lucky.

So today I was a little late coming home for feeding and could not find Django. In a panic, I overturned everything in the cage looking for him. Then I spotted a little hole on the deep side of the tank! He dug his first burrow! I was so excited! I even took a picture lol. I poked around in the dirt a bit and heard an almighty hiss from deep down, so I left him alone. I came back a few minutes later and just called his name and tapped the tongs on the side of the tank. It was like a dinner bell. The earth started to move and suddenly a very dirty lizard appeared. He devoured his dinner and sat under the light for a bit before returning to his burrow. He seems to be doing well lol ;)

[infernalis]

So today I was a little late coming home for feeding and could not find Django. In a panic, I overturned everything in the cage looking for him. Then I spotted a little hole on the deep side of the tank! He dug his first burrow! I was so excited! I even took a picture lol. I poked around in the dirt a bit and heard an almighty hiss from deep down, so I left him alone. I came back a few minutes later and just called his name and tapped the tongs on the side of the tank. It was like a dinner bell. The earth started to move and suddenly a very dirty lizard appeared. He devoured his dinner and sat under the light for a bit before returning to his burrow. He seems to be doing well lol ;)

After watching "Gorillas in the Mist" today, and then seeing that ball python with the smashed in back posted on this forum, I was in as sour frame of mind for a while, reading this was just what I needed to turn my mood around.

That is so cool, possible the first time that lizard has been down a burrow. Awesome stuff there....:D:D

[Pirarucu]

Sounds like he's doing well! More pics please!

[Vegasarah]

He's doing really well, I'm not seeing much of him since the burrow has been dug. I had to set an alarm on my phone to go check if he was out every hour so that I could feed him! I'm trying to only feed from tongs with plenty of talking in the hopes that it will make me the Almighty Bringer Of Food and he might loathe me a little less lol. I know he snuck out and messed in his water dish without me seeing him out. It started to get late in the day, so I picked up the tube hide that he had burrowed under and poked around in the dirt to try and coax him out so I could feed him. He just hissed and stayed put, so I left him alone, but stayed in the room so I could see him if he chose to come out.

About 5 minutes later he emerged, covered in dirt. I fed him, and he was sitting under the basking light looking very content.

I went to put the tube hide back over the borrow and BAM! Tail whip right to the arm with some serious force! I must have moved too fast for his liking and he decided to tell me all about it. Ouuuuuch. That was like 3 hours ago and the mark is turning into a nice bruise!

But I have a question, will they keep to a schedule if I put him on one as far as feeding goes? Or will it kind of all be the same to him because the lights are on 24/7? And would it be bad of me to dig him up in an attempt to keep him on the schedule? I haven't tried doing that, and I have a feeling that it will just serve to piss him off lol.

How does everyone else feed them without having to wait around all day/ dig them up?

And a picture of his little burrow and my poor forearm lol. I'm going to take more pictures of HIM tonight when I feed.

[Pirarucu]

With young monitors, most keepers leave food in the cage for the monitor, in addition to the feedings from tongs.

Also, in relation to the hiding all the time, I have a bit of a question for those who keep multiple young monitors together as well as singly. Have you ever noticed the ones kept alone are much more reclusive? I have a friend who bought four Nile Monitors with the intention of breeding, and when kept together they spent lots of time out and about, even in his presence, and would tolerate touching, etc. He then decided not to breed, and sold the three smaller Niles. The last one completely changed, and turned into a pet burrow. It eats and is active, but as soon as it hears him coming, he can hear it dive down a burrow before he even gets a look at it. I'm curious as to whether monitors may find the presence of other monitors reassuring, much like ducks do. Has anyone else seen anything like this?

[Vegasarah]

Thanks, I just thought that the association of human = yummy stuff would be lost if feeding from a dish. I'm just trying to get this guy to a place where he's not going to tail whip me when I reach in there haha.

That's an interesting theory, and maybe there is also competition for food so they are more active and maybe feel like they have to stay alert so there dinner doesn't get stolen? I wouldn't doubt the reassuring thing either, though.

If the rescue was to get in another Nile and it was of a similar size to Django at whatever point, could they live together okay? Even if they were both males? If it was a male and female I would they certainly breed?

Who's sick of all my questions??? Haha.

[Pirarucu]

Thanks, I just thought that the association of human = yummy stuff would be lost if feeding from a dish. I'm just trying to get this guy to a place where he's not going to tail whip me when I reach in there haha.

That's an interesting theory, and maybe there is also competition for food so they are more active and maybe feel like they have to stay alert so there dinner doesn't get stolen? I wouldn't doubt the reassuring thing either, though.

If the rescue was to get in another Nile and it was of a similar size to Django at whatever point, could they live together okay? Even if they were both males? If it was a male and female I would they certainly breed?

Who's sick of all my questions??? Haha.If you're feeding him from tongs at all, he will make that connection.

That's a possibility too, I didn't think of that.

In theory it could be done, if they're both still young. Two males is okay with some monitor species, I wouldn't count on it with niles.. Kept anywhere near properly, a pair will breed.

[Vegasarah]

Okay, I also had a weird idea about putting things with my 'scent' inside the enclosure. I am guessing, but I would say that their sense of smell is crazy good. Django can tell the difference between each feeder animal before he even sees it. My thinking is that maybe my hand going in and out of the tank and scaring him would be less if the tank already kind of smelled like me? Like if I were to wear a T-shirt to bed a few nights in a row and then put it like over a hide for him to smell and climb on?

The never- ending quest to make him a little bit less of a hell-raiser lol.

Okay so the only way we could house another Nile with Django is if he is a she, and if the other is a girl. I don't think that we want to breed two rescues, probably way more trouble than it would be worth. Plus I don't know if I could sleep easy at night knowing that whoever got the babies would probably not take proper care of them.

[infernalis]

There is more than one documented case where monitors were immediately killed by the one already in the cage.

To minimize that risk, it is recommended to raise them together.

[varanus_mad]

There is more than one documented case where monitors were immediately killed by the one already in the cage.

To minimize that risk, it is recommended to raise them together.


And if you do have to try and get them to live together its best to do int a cage neither are familliar with.

That way its not one monitors territory or another.

[Vegasarah]

Too scary! I'm not going to risk it lol. Haven't seen much of him today, he is camped out in that burrow all the time now.

Okay, weird question time!

When I go to zoos, they don't have enough substrate for the monitors to burrow in, but I imagine the humidity is very high because the glass is usually fogged and the monitors look healthy to me? If they are living long lives like this what are they doing differently? Is it the increased space? Access to a perfect diet? The san diego zoo runs sonic foggers in their enclosures, is it just the high temps and humidity?

[Lankyrob]

In our zoos over here the animals normally have a "back room" to their enclosure which has much better husbandry than the public display, mostly the animals can choose which area they stay in, tho some are locked into the public area during the day then shut into the back at night :)

[infernalis]

Too scary! I'm not going to risk it lol. Haven't seen much of him today, he is camped out in that burrow all the time now.

Okay, weird question time!

When I go to zoos, they don't have enough substrate for the monitors to burrow in, but I imagine the humidity is very high because the glass is usually fogged and the monitors look healthy to me? If they are living long lives like this what are they doing differently? Is it the increased space? Access to a perfect diet? The san diego zoo runs sonic foggers in their enclosures, is it just the high temps and humidity?

I have a research paper done on Varanid mortality in Zoos, and over the years the Bronx zoo has lost a number of monitors to Gout, so even the zoos are still learning what to do.

Monitor husbandry has moved forward by leaps and bounds, but only recently.

They lost one once due to a drain backing up and water from a turtle enclosure flowed into the monitor enclosure, something in the turtle water infected the monitor..

Private individuals are not the only ones learning here. ;)

I just feel blessed that this information gets shared so we can apply new tactics based on their failures.

[Pirarucu]

Agreed, even zoos are still learning. Monitors unfortunately are so tough that they can appear healthy yet be dying inside. It takes an experienced eye to spot anything wrong, and even then it can be tough or impossible. I saw an Ackie Monitor at a zoo which I'll not name that had a dirt substrate, but it was bone dry and only a few inches deep. The monitor appeared healthy, until it moved... Most guests don't pay attention to these things, but I did and sure enough, it only flopped its back legs, it did not bend them at the joints much, if at all.

[infernalis]

Most guests wouldn't know what they were looking at was abnormal anyway.

[Vegasarah]

I'm thinking about volunteering at my local zoo, it looks good when I apply for graduate school. Only problem is that I haven't been there since I was a kid, and even then it was depressing. Of course I would love to go and possibly make a difference in some of the animal's care (I only have a lot of knowledge when it comes to reptiles, so that would be my main focus). I just wonder if it would lead to more heart ache than anything else. They might not have the money to do things correctly, or might just not care. But I do know that they have a savannah monitor at the zoo, so maybe I could offer some insight to it's care now that everything is still fresh in my mind. I really never thought I would have a monitor but I find them really delightful. I didn't think I would get so into them so quickly!

Django is becoming a master at hiding, he's eating food out of the dish and messing in his water so I know he's out. I just never seem to catch it! Oh well, maybe I should spend more time in my room where the tank is.

Still waiting to see if I will be getting some of my tuition back this week. If I do, I'll start the larger build this weekend. If not, I'll just rig up the plywood top on the tank and start saving money each paycheck. How much would it be to build something large like that? I'm thinking close to $250 if I can't get anything on sale etc. I should go to the lumber yard and see if they have anything cheaper than Home Depot's plywood that is 8x4 at $17.

[EmbraceCalamity]

I'm thinking about volunteering at my local zoo, it looks good when I apply for graduate school. Only problem is that I haven't been there since I was a kid, and even then it was depressing. Of course I would love to go and possibly make a difference in some of the animal's care (I only have a lot of knowledge when it comes to reptiles, so that would be my main focus). I just wonder if it would lead to more heart ache than anything else. They might not have the money to do things correctly, or might just not care. But I do know that they have a savannah monitor at the zoo, so maybe I could offer some insight to it's care now that everything is still fresh in my mind. I really never thought I would have a monitor but I find them really delightful. I didn't think I would get so into them so quickly!If you do, the worst that'll happen is you'll be disappointed; you can't do any harm for the animals. So even if the chances are slim, I'd say at least try if I were you.

~Maggot

[Vegasarah]

If you do, the worst that'll happen is you'll be disappointed; you can't do any harm for the animals. So even if the chances are slim, I'd say at least try if I were you.

~Maggot

I just don't know if I could stomach it if it did turn out to be an abusive type situation with terrible husbandry and no want to change it. I think I could take it, and hopefully the benefits will outweigh a heavy heart at the end of the day.

[EmbraceCalamity]

I just don't know if I could stomach it if it did turn out to be an abusive type situation with terrible husbandry and no want to change it. I think I could take it, and hopefully the benefits will outweigh a heavy heart at the end of the day.Abraham Lincoln once said, "The probability that we may fail in the struggle ought not to deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just."

~Maggot

[Vegasarah]

The burrow digging was in full swing today! Dirt flying all over the tank, and this new burrow is cool because it's close to the glass so I can see him snaking through the dirt when he's in there. Awesomeness.

Still pounding down pinkies and fuzzies like a champ, doesn't want anything to do with the nightcrawlers, though. But maybe I should START with those when I know he's hungry. I'm just tong feeding him twice a day, and leave some of the worms or roaches or meal worms in a big dish, which he gets to later in the day or at night between feedings. And he always acts like he's starving.

I keep seeing on all these care sheet (not on here, just other sites) where people are saying that feeding 2-3 fuzzies a week is good for a monitor his size. He eats that amount twice a day! What's the deal with that? Such a difference!

[infernalis]

It's all nonsense.

When kept properly, it's nearly impossible to over feed a monitor lizard.

They are smart enough to know when their belly is full.

Some of them consume 80% of their own body weight in a single meal.

The authors of those "care sheets" or "Care guides" need to look to nature for the answers and stop forming imaginative hypotheses based on rumour and speculation.

[Vegasarah]

Okay, that's what I figured. He seems to be doing great with his mission to eat me out of house and home lol. Not that I mind, feeding time is my favorite for all my babies!

Another question (I know, I'm full of them). I had him eating just pinkies with an occasional fuzzie, but I know that pinkies are higher in fat. He seems to like them just the same, so should I stick to fuzzies? They are still pretty big for him, but he seems to get them down just fine. Is there a danger of him choking on a fuzzie that is too big? I could request smaller ones to avoid this, or just stick to the pinkies. What do you guys think?

[infernalis]

Have you ever seen that chasm called a throat on a monitor?

If it fits at all, it will go down.

It's not so much the fat, but fuzzies have more skeleton structure, more bones equals more calcium.

[dinosaurdammit]

Have you ever seen that chasm called a throat on a monitor?

If it fits at all, it will go down.

It's not so much the fat, but fuzzies have more skeleton structure, more bones equals more calcium.

A treat i like to give pajaaamas- oxtail. The smallest vert they have is pretty boney and has a good layer of meat. He gets one once a month. I imagine the bone coupled with the marrow might actually be beneficial?

[Vegasarah]

That's what I figured. I had one in my bag today that was very large, I probably would have asked for a smaller one if I had seen it sooner. I still offered it to him and after he banged it against a grape vine a few times, he decided he would knock his head back and choke it down. I watched this with some apprehension, ready to grab that little pink leg sticking out if he looked like he wouldn't be able to get it down. He was fine, of course. Though he kind of had to turn his neck side to side a few times to work it down lol. I figured that if something really was too big he could thrash it down to smaller bits if he wanted to.

[infernalis]

A treat i like to give pajaaamas- oxtail. The smallest vert they have is pretty boney and has a good layer of meat. He gets one once a month. I imagine the bone coupled with the marrow might actually be beneficial?

Yes, good stuff, I would like to find a place that processes rabbits for consumption, the feet would make a treat, bones, toenails and all.

[dinosaurdammit]

Yes, good stuff, I would like to find a place that processes rabbits for consumption, the feet would make a treat, bones, toenails and all.

if you have a trader joes they might have some, try your local special meats store, call in. I got pajaaamas some sheep brains once. Ive never seen an animal love a food more. He has only had it once because apparently sheep brain doesnt come out much :no:

[Vegasarah]

It really is entertaining to watch them eat, isn't it? Such enthusiasm for it, I really enjoy feeding Django. Love that feisty attitude, so many of my other animals are so lazy lol.

He kind of reminds me of myself, long and lean and always down to eat! Plus if I had a tail I know of a few people that would be gettin' whipped by it!

[Vegasarah]

Yes, good stuff, I would like to find a place that processes rabbits for consumption, the feet would make a treat, bones, toenails and all.


I have a pet rabbit >___< I know who to call if she kicks the bucket.... lol jk

[dinosaurdammit]

It really is entertaining to watch them eat, isn't it? Such enthusiasm for it, I really enjoy feeding Django. Love that feisty attitude, so many of my other animals are so lazy lol.

He kind of reminds me of myself, long and lean and always down to eat! Plus if I had a tail I know of a few people that would be gettin' whipped by it!

I like pajaaamas so much I imagine if I were him.

http://d.facdn.net/art/pajaaamas/1354944970.pajaaamas_pajaaamasref.jpg

Id smack my neighbors dog with my oar of a tail if I could, that bugger poops in my yard. I might even give him a good hissin crabwalk as well!

[infernalis]

do you draw those???

[dinosaurdammit]

do you draw those???

yes i do :3
i paint as well http://d.facdn.net/art/pajaaamas/1353643878.pajaaamas_goose_goose_copy.jpg

id do one of little foot and sarah if youd like

[infernalis]

uh, yes please....

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OkHtuMoUNgg/UGzlqWV4s1I/AAAAAAAAATY/yr_Qe3awT3o/s1600/oliver-twist.jpg

[Lankyrob]

That's what I figured. I had one in my bag today that was very large, I probably would have asked for a smaller one if I had seen it sooner. I still offered it to him and after he banged it against a grape vine a few times, he decided he would knock his head back and choke it down. I watched this with some apprehension, ready to grab that little pink leg sticking out if he looked like he wouldn't be able to get it down. He was fine, of course. Though he kind of had to turn his neck side to side a few times to work it down lol. I figured that if something really was too big he could thrash it down to smaller bits if he wanted to.

When i fed my Ackie mice he would do this and also with the very large locusts, i assumed that they were doing this to crush the food slightly using the throat/neck muscles??

[dinosaurdammit]

When i fed my Ackie mice he would do this and also with the very large locusts, i assumed that they were doing this to crush the food slightly using the throat/neck muscles??

From what Ive seen their neck has muscles galore at the vertebrae but the throat is more of a pouch, not too much of anything there.

[infernalis]

From what Ive seen their neck has muscles galore at the vertebrae but the throat is more of a pouch, not too much of anything there.

Pursuant to a statement made on "Life in Cold Blood - Dragons of the dry" that pouch is muscular. It's also used as a bellows to pump fresh air while running, making monitor lizards capable of running full speed for great distances.

[dinosaurdammit]

Pursuant to a statement made on "Life in Cold Blood - Dragons of the dry" that pouch is muscular. It's also used as a bellows to pump fresh air while running, making monitor lizards capable of running full speed for great distances.

weird, pajaaamas is like a pelican pouch, he can use it to pump air for hisses n such but ive never seen him crush much of anything in there, now i have seen him use his head and enclosure as the hammer of thor on a rat once.

[infernalis]

I don't believe they crush any food with it, but I have seen my lizards store food in it while grabbing up more.

[dinosaurdammit]

I don't believe they crush any food with it, but I have seen my lizards store food in it while grabbing up more.

I have seen this with mine, he looks so odd because its like some sort of prehistoric chip monk. On that, do they burry their food for later? I have seen him deliberately dig a hole, put food in it, and cover it back up.

[infernalis]

I have seen this with mine, he looks so odd because its like some sort of prehistoric chip monk. On that, do they burry their food for later? I have seen him deliberately dig a hole, put food in it, and cover it back up.

you just answered your own question by observation. ;)

[dinosaurdammit]

you just answered your own question by observation. ;)

but ive never seen him go back and dig it back up :C its like he forgets he buried it, till something smells RIPE in there. Then I have to play "where did pajaaamas whack the rat".

[infernalis]

well, honestly LF & Cera never bury food, they slam it down and walk away when satiated.

[varanus_mad]

Pursuant to a statement made on "Life in Cold Blood - Dragons of the dry" that pouch is muscular. It's also used as a bellows to pump fresh air while running, making monitor lizards capable of running full speed for great distances.

Perentie chases down rabbit magnifique

[varanus_mad]

but ive never seen him go back and dig it back up :C its like he forgets he buried it, till something smells RIPE in there. Then I have to play "where did pajaaamas whack the rat".

My guess your feeding him to the point of satiation and heres the key part your feeding schedule means he never need go back for the rat

Next time he does it dont feed him see if he goes and digs it up.

[infernalis]

Perentie chases down rabbit magnifique

spoken like a true fanatic... Bet you could recite the whole dialogue of the entire film without trying.

Don't feel bad, I can too.

[Pirarucu]

My guess your feeding him to the point of satiation and heres the key part your feeding schedule means he never need go back for the rat

Next time he does it dont feed him see if he goes and digs it up.I have a hunch you're right... I agree, next time he does it, see if he goes back to get it if you don't feed him.

[varanus_mad]

spoken like a true fanatic... Bet you could recite the whole dialogue of the entire film without trying.

Don't feel bad, I can too.

That and lizard kings.

Oh nout wrong with being a varanophile matey.

after all itd be really hard to take an addiction like this to the point of wrecking your home life.

[Vegasarah]

And now that Django is up and running and I've got a new build started in my living room... got a new rescue in lol. Skinny little girl ball python. But this is what makes me the happiest, helping animals in need! ;)

[Vegasarah]

Going to start a new thread on Django where I can post pictures and video so everyone can tell me how awesome he is and I can be like "I KNOW, RIGHT?" lol.

Now that he's happy and healthy and normal, I want to thank everyone again form the bottom of my heart for all your help and advice. You guys helped me save this animal's life and I am very grateful. I know he is too! ;)

[murrindindi]

I tried to put a photo up of my heating/lighting arrangement, but it doesn`t alloow me to?

[infernalis]

try now Stefan. It's a forum security measure to keep spam off the boards.

[murrindindi]

Thanks Wayne, here goes....
Heating a basking site using low wattage halogen bulbs (I need to use more because of my monitor`s size)... The bottom pic was taken before I made the box to stop him touching the bulbs.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8183/8098456051_7b1138d12a.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8428/7833676978_b67bbf7ae0.jpg

[murrindindi]

Can someone tell me how to take away the pic details, though I don`t mind who can see my flickr album, I don`t see other`s photos with them still on, I tried deleting the words but then the photo didn`t show?

[Vegasarah]

Thanks for the pictures! That is a great example. I am going to have pretty much the same thing but with the bulbs hanging freely so if he tries to mess with them, they will swing out of the way. Is yours a Nile or a Water Monitor? I'm not too good with telling the two apart yet, sorry to say.

[infernalis]

Can someone tell me how to take away the pic details, though I don`t mind who can see my flickr album, I don`t see other`s photos with them still on, I tried deleting the words but then the photo didn`t show?

I chopped it out for you.:)

[Pirarucu]

Thanks for the pictures! That is a great example. I am going to have pretty much the same thing but with the bulbs hanging freely so if he tries to mess with them, they will swing out of the way. Is yours a Nile or a Water Monitor? I'm not too good with telling the two apart yet, sorry to say.Water. If you're ever unsure, just look at the nostrils. Waters have them on the tip of the snout, Niles have them farther back on the side of the head.

[Vegasarah]

Water. If you're ever unsure, just look at the nostrils. Waters have them on the tip of the snout, Niles have them farther back on the side of the head.

Awesome, thanks for that. :)