Sav water bowls

[Lankyrob]

I have read on here about savs having issues with cold water bowls and wondered if this idea would work (future plans for me are always in my mind ;))

If the water bowl was plumbed into the bottom of the viv kinda like a pond with decent drainage so that it could be cleaned easily and refilled. Would it be possible to place under floor heating under the pond set to a suitable temperature to stop the water getting "cold" when the basking lights are off?

Would this cause issues with bacteria etc or any other issues you can think of?

Cheers

Rob :)

[SpOoKy]

An issue I see with that is most savs do (or should) have at least 2 ft of substrate. It would be difficult to 1 dig a bowl deep enough to hit the ground and 2 even with a drain of some type I think so much dirt would get into it you would just end up with mud.

[jarich]

One of the other members, AjaMichelle, has just such a set up Rob. There is a thread here:

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/varanid/96061-sump-area-savannah-monitor-enclosure.html

She has a heater in the overflow tank so that the water stays nice and warm consistently. It seems not that difficult to do, and the bacteria should cycle itself based on a large enough reservoir and conditions being met. Its a beautiful set up and one that is very beneficial for many reasons in my opinion.

[SpOoKy]

Oops, I totally missed the pond part of your post Rob. I thought you meant just a water bowl type set up. My bad

[Lankyrob]

No worries, my HOPE is to have a stream across the enclosure that drains i to s pond deep enough for them to swim in. The pond would drain into a sub tank that has a mesh in it to catch the gunk before the water is then pumped back up to the head of the stream.

Ijust wondered about whether it would be feasible to heat the pond directly as i would "turn off" the stream at the same time i turn off the lights. I guess one solutio would be to use a heater/pump that would run 24/7.

The other thought is that if the stream is too much to set up/maintain then the pond would be "stagnant" but with a drainage system suitable to pump out the sludge regularly so hte pond could be refilled. In this case i think heating the pond directly would be best?

[dinosaurdammit]

have you considered an aquarium heater? the one ive got for my water dragons looks like a rod with a plug in, it lays flat in their tub and keeps their water nice and warm

[Lankyrob]

have you considered an aquarium heater? the one ive got for my water dragons looks like a rod with a plug in, it lays flat in their tub and keeps their water nice and warm

I think savs would probably kill it, need something that they couldnt get to ;)

[Zoo Nanny]

What about enclosing the heater and pump in wide pvc pipe. You can drill large holes in the sides so the water is able to flow through it. Wires can be protected by the thinner 1-2" pvc pipe. We had to design a waterfall for a leopard exhibit and resorted to using pvc. We were able to bury the pvc underground once it came above the pond. The pvc pipe is incredibly strong. I use it to protect wires from the birds. Even the big birds can't bite through the pipe.

[dinosaurdammit]

I think savs would probably kill it, need something that they couldnt get to ;)

Hmm, what about a heated tub?

http://www.backyardbirdcenterkc.com/01home/allied%20heated%20water%20bowl.jpg

they have all shapes and sizes and you can burry the cord or cover them in rocks

[Lankyrob]

My worry with wires or pipes being buried is that savs are diggers and from looking and reading about wayne's two they are so bloody curious i am pretty certain they would dig the wires out. Keep the ideas and concerns coming tho :)

[Zoo Nanny]

Rob they wouldn't be able to get to the wires if you put them through pvc pipe. It's far too hard for them to be able to bite into it. We used PVC for many of the animals at the zoos with no issues. A sav has a 50lb bite pressure psa, a hyacinth macaw has a 1000lb bite pressure per psa. No way can they bite through it. You can even make the pvc look like a branch by taking a blow torch to it.(needs to be done outdoors/gases)

[Lankyrob]

Rob they wouldn't be able to get to the wires if you put them through pvc pipe. It's far too hard for them to be able to bite into it. We used PVC for many of the animals at the zoos with no issues. A sav has a 50lb bite pressure psa, a hyacinth macaw has a 1000lb bite pressure per psa. No way can they bite through it. You can even make the pvc look like a branch by taking a blow torch to it.(needs to be done outdoors/gases)

Cool, thanks for the info :)

[Vegasarah]

This whole thread is great, I really enjoy everyone's responses. I followed the link to the sump area idea and I have to say it's just brilliant. My mind is now racing with ideas for a filtered pond in an enclosure. I'm a sucker for glass, so now I'm scribbling down all these ideas and dimensions of a glass pond to watch a water monitor hunt in. So exciting :)

[infernalis]

My worry with wires or pipes being buried is that savs are diggers and from looking and reading about wayne's two they are so bloody curious i am pretty certain they would dig the wires out. Keep the ideas and concerns coming tho :)

Mine have destroyed the hygrometer, tore the probe off the thermometer, and constantly molest the light bulbs, so I would predict from these observations that one could expect similar results.

Anything that is less than bulletproof is at risk with monitors. All plumbing and wiring need to be outside the box, they will find a way to get at it, they won't leave it alone.

They were finding trouble at a young age...

http://www.varanus.us/outlet/outlet4.jpg

[AjaMichelle]

An issue I see with that is most savs do (or should) have at least 2 ft of substrate. It would be difficult to 1 dig a bowl deep enough to hit the ground and 2 even with a drain of some type I think so much dirt would get into it you would just end up with mud.

You would never want to put something heavier than a pan on top of the substrate, because burrowing underneath it poses a crushing risk. You would want to put the heat pad under the dish with everything supported by a shelf to prevent burrowing, but this poses other logistical issues.

One of the other members, AjaMichelle, has just such a set up Rob. There is a thread here:

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/varanid/96061-sump-area-savannah-monitor-enclosure.html

She has a heater in the overflow tank so that the water stays nice and warm consistently. It seems not that difficult to do, and the bacteria should cycle itself based on a large enough reservoir and conditions being met. Its a beautiful set up and one that is very beneficial for many reasons in my opinion.

Thanks Jarich!!! :)

No worries, my HOPE is to have a stream across the enclosure that drains i to s pond deep enough for them to swim in. The pond would drain into a sub tank that has a mesh in it to catch the gunk before the water is then pumped back up to the head of the stream.

Ijust wondered about whether it would be feasible to heat the pond directly as i would "turn off" the stream at the same time i turn off the lights. I guess one solutio would be to use a heater/pump that would run 24/7.

The other thought is that if the stream is too much to set up/maintain then the pond would be "stagnant" but with a drainage system suitable to pump out the sludge regularly so hte pond could be refilled. In this case i think heating the pond directly would be best?

I think the stream will likely collect a lot of mud. One of my monitors pulls lots of dirt into my pond. I think you could lessen the amount of substrate that ends up in the stream by making the edges of the stream out of concrete so that the sav would first need to walk across a large bare area, where he would theoretically leave any loose substrate behind before entering the stream. However, based on the digging, running, etc. I witness with mine, keeping the substrate in certain areas would prove difficult. You would probably need to sweep the bare areas at least once a day. A sediment layer in the pond wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing though (more bacterial colonies).

You definitely need to filter the water if you decide to use a pond. It stagnates quickly otherwise. I personally didn't want to gunk my filter up with sav poop, as I imagined I'd need to open, clean, and empty it every few days, which is why I decided to use a sump.

The poop doesn't really make it down to the sump tank, especially intact. I typically net or vacuum it (with a gravity siphon) out of the pond. I think the poop that does make it into the sump only does so because she happens to poop near enough to the outlet. The poop breaks down into detritus and mixes with sand, substrate, and gravel in the pond, then some is carried into the sump when she kicks it up while swimming. I vacuum the gravel once a week while doing water changes. I am able to get quite a bit of the exoskeleton fragments that are floating around too. The filter keeps the water clean so it doesn't smell at all and stays clear.

The plants are going nuts and my female fish is currently producing her third generation of fry since September.

I would definitely recommend heating the pond directly. Using another heating unit will be quite cumbersome (like a pad for instance) and it seems like doing any kind of necessary maintenance will be difficult. Keeping that open space under the pond would also create a dangerous situation for monitors that may try to cram into it.

My monitors are really good about not destroying anything. They knock my hygrometers over from time to time, but they leave the lights alone, they don't attack the thermometers, they don't attack my hygrometers, and they don't try to eat anything they shouldn't. I could put a heater in my pond in the enclosure without concern for the savs' curiosity, but I'm not simply because they could become tangled in the cord, pull it out of the water, and/or burn themselves.

You could make a system such that the pond and stream could be separate entities part of the time (like at night) by closing the flow through to the stream so that only the pond is cycled at night.

I think a lot of the issues with water bowls being too cold stems from a lack of sufficient temperature gradients in enclosures. Folks often say that the only temps that really matter are the hot spot and cooler area, and yes theoretically, the temperature gradient in the enclosure should work out correctly given these two temp parameters are met. However, if the ambient temperature in the room is too low (among many other variables), you'll have a hot spot and a cooler area, and the cooler area is likely to take up most of the gradient.

We provide a hot spot much much hotter than optimal body temp, and a cooler area much much lower than optimal body temp specifically so monitors can heat up and cool down quickly. However, providing a large and consistent range of temperatures in between allows monitors to match an optimal body temperature more closely (like exactly), instead of struggling between too hot and too cold like they must in the wild.

I've never had a water bowl so cold my sav couldn't function once immersed. The water temp in the enclosures in which I've housed my savannah monitors have always been at least 80*F.

[AjaMichelle]

I followed the link to the sump area idea and I have to say it's just brilliant.

Thanks Sarah! :)

[Vegasarah]

You are very welcome Michelle, your ingenuity and wonderful pictures and descriptions deserve some serious praise. Your method is clear and easy to replicate, and I plan on doing just that in the near future. Thank you for the inspiration!

[Lankyrob]

Just want to point out that my plan with the pond is that thebottom of the pond is the bottom of the enclosure so theree is no risk of the sav burrowin under it.

Thinking now of having a raised area for the pond to sit on so that the drainage/cleaning areas can be under the pond but safe from inquisitve monitors ;)

Still got years of planning and research before this all come to fruition so any more thoughts or ideas are gratefully welcomed :)