Monitors: Deserving of respect (xrays included)

[dinosaurdammit]

So I write this now with one hand, preface the story with my monitor bumped his nose rather hard against a rock in his viv while death shaking a dead rat, this caused a cut that the vet said some tripple anitbiotics would help. I attempted to put some on his nose but here is where it went south. He bit- and hard. While I attempted to remove my hand he latched harder.

I was 100% in the wrong. I do not blame him, as he was just being a monitor lizard that was irritated. It took a little bit of vinigar in his mouth before he let go and by this point I was sick and in a lot of pain. Childbirth was not that bad. I ended up going to the er because I honestly thought he broke my thumb. He bit so hard i felt something SNAP. The swelling was emence right away and I was rolling in the floor in agony.

I have never broken anything ever but this felt like I had. After some xrays ( i will be uploading the copies here so you can see some damage done ) showed no fractures as ofd yet so I am splinted and antibiotic-ed up.

Learn from my pain and my fault- monitors CAN and DO cause great injury. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE be aware of this and give them the utmost respect because I so far got lucky. I will need to see a hand specilist. Now note my monitor is small. Those thinking about or already own larger monitors be aware the damage they can inflict. I have learned from this. I in no way blame him but I am now on the road to be more aware of his body language and trying to understand these prehistoric marvels.


Xrays will hopefully be uploaded tomorrow as I asked for a digital copy to give a first hand, har har hand, account of damage they can inflict when irritated or otherwise bothered. As for the antibiotic ointment? I will be wearing leather gloves to apply anything in the future and have decided its best to just handle him with leather gloves as well. Their teeth are vicious.

[Corey209]

So I write this now with one hand, preface the story with my monitor bumped his nose rather hard against a rock in his viv while death shaking a dead rat, this caused a cut that the vet said some tripple anitbiotics would help. I attempted to put some on his nose but here is where it went south. He bit- and hard. While I attempted to remove my hand he latched harder.

I was 100% in the wrong. I do not blame him, as he was just being a monitor lizard that was irritated. It took a little bit of vinigar in his mouth before he let go and by this point I was sick and in a lot of pain. Childbirth was not that bad. I ended up going to the er because I honestly thought he broke my thumb. He bit so hard i felt something SNAP. The swelling was emence right away and I was rolling in the floor in agony.

I have never broken anything ever but this felt like I had. After some xrays ( i will be uploading the copies here so you can see some damage done ) showed no fractures as ofd yet so I am splinted and antibiotic-ed up.

Learn from my pain and my fault- monitors CAN and DO cause great injury. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE be aware of this and give them the utmost respect because I so far got lucky. I will need to see a hand specilist. Now note my monitor is small. Those thinking about or already own larger monitors be aware the damage they can inflict. I have learned from this. I in no way blame him but I am now on the road to be more aware of his body language and trying to understand these prehistoric marvels.


Xrays will hopefully be uploaded tomorrow as I asked for a digital copy to give a first hand, har har hand, account of damage they can inflict when irritated or otherwise bothered. As for the antibiotic ointment? I will be wearing leather gloves to apply anything in the future and have decided its best to just handle him with leather gloves as well. Their teeth are vicious.

You've been having a whole lot of bad luck.. Good luck with your monitor.

[dinosaurdammit]

You've been having a whole lot of bad luck.. Good luck with your monitor.


He is totally fine. I just noticed the nick on his nose wasnt healing up as well so after a vet call he just suggested i try that to help it heal quicker. I learned that I have never had something bite me so hard before in my life. I am truly in awe of their bight force even smaller monitors like pajaaamas

[Corey209]

He is totally fine. I just noticed the nick on his nose wasnt healing up as well so after a vet call he just suggested i try that to help it heal quicker. I learned that I have never had something bite me so hard before in my life. I am truly in awe of their bight force even smaller monitors like pajaaamas

Ah alright, well still hope he/you heals up nicely :p I could only imagine the bite :eek: I was bit by an anaconda today, didn't feel good.

[infernalis]

ouch.....

Hope you heal up fine.

[dinosaurdammit]

Ah alright, well still hope he heals up nicely :p I could only imagine the bite :eek: I was bit by an anaconda today, didn't feel good.|

imagine your thumb being crushed over and over by a hammer. Then push thumb tacks into that and crush some more. Im not even kidding. It was horrible

ouch.....

Hope you heal up fine.


some antibiotics and time will tell. I dont think i will have any lasting damage. I did learn a lession albeit a painful one

[infernalis]

|

imagine your thumb being crushed over and over by a hammer. Then push thumb tacks into that and crush some more. Im not even kidding. It was horrible




some antibiotics and time will tell. I dont think i will have any lasting damage. I did learn a lession albeit a painful one

Pictures and X-rays will do well to educate others.

[Corey209]

|

imagine your thumb being crushed over and over by a hammer. Then push thumb tacks into that and crush some more. Im not even kidding. It was horrible




some antibiotics and time will tell. I dont think i will have any lasting damage. I did learn a lession albeit a painful one

I couldn't imagine being bit by an adult Savannah if that's how it felt with a small monitor...

[dinosaurdammit]

Pictures and X-rays will do well to educate others.

i9 call radiology lab where i had the xrays done in the moring to schedual a time to pic up the xrays and the doctor took some pretty high res pictures of the bite, mind you it had been cleaned- at the time of the bite he severed many blood vessels in my thumb and made blood spurt over ten feet.

I couldn't imagine being bit by an adult Savannah if that's how it felt with a small monitor...
pajaaamas is about 4.5 or so feet long from nose to tip of tail. I dunno how large savs are but i imagine somewhat similar in size

[BarelyBreathing]

It's important to remember that these animals have been recently discovered to be venomous. Even a small monitor can make you physically ill, cause a lot of swelling, and possibly have some minor bleeding/clotting problems.

[iBaman]

i9 call radiology lab where i had the xrays done in the moring to schedual a time to pic up the xrays and the doctor took some pretty high res pictures of the bite, mind you it had been cleaned- at the time of the bite he severed many blood vessels in my thumb and made blood spurt over ten feet.


pajaaamas is about 4.5 or so feet long from nose to tip of tail. I dunno how large savs are but i imagine somewhat similar in size

your sav is names pajamas?! =D I knew it wasn't a ridiculous name!

hope your thumb feels better soon =]

[RandyRhoads]

It's important to remember that these animals have been recently discovered to be venomous. Even a small monitor can make you physically ill, cause a lot of swelling, and possibly have some minor bleeding/clotting problems.

That's very hard to believe. All monitors are venomous? At what point does it go from nasty saliva to "venom".......

Also, what would be the point of a herbivore needing venom glands? What differs between a salivary gland in a lizards mouth and and venom gland?

[Zoo Nanny]

Hope you feel better soon.

[varanus_mad]

That's very hard to believe. All monitors are venomous? At what point does it go from nasty saliva to "venom".......

Also, what would be the point of a herbivore needing venom glands? What differs between a salivary gland in a lizards mouth and and venom gland?

herbivore? as far as im aware theres no species of monitors thats a herbivore theres 3 that are frugivores.


Im assuming at this point your aware of the structure of a gila monsters jaw?

where the venom glands line up with the lower jaw?

Same thing in varanids...

why would they need that sort of structure?

[infernalis]

d3_eHNXRV8Q

[Pirarucu]

It's important to remember that these animals have been recently discovered to be venomous. Even a small monitor can make you physically ill, cause a lot of swelling, and possibly have some minor bleeding/clotting problems.This. From what I've heard, albig bites are quite bad. Deep muscle pains, breaking with a cold sweat, etc.

[War Machine]

This. From what I've heard, albig bites are quite bad. Deep muscle pains, breaking with a cold sweat, etc.

I've never been latched on by my albigs, but I can imagine it. I am super cautious with my varanid. Though I have caught a few tails. Albigs will whip before biting if they can.

Sorry to hear about your thumb Dino. Hopefully it's not enough to deter you from monitors :P

I can't wait for the ignorant, salvator keepers to experience this. All ignorant keepers for that matter. Serves em right.

[dinosaurdammit]

I've never been latched on by my albigs, but I can imagine it. I am super cautious with my varanid. Though I have caught a few tails. Albigs will whip before biting if they can.

Sorry to hear about your thumb Dino. Hopefully it's not enough to deter you from monitors :P

I can't wait for the ignorant, salvator keepers to experience this. All ignorant keepers for that matter. Serves em right.

While I agree ignorant keepers deserve some sort of wake up call i wouldnt wish this on anyone. When it happened it felts as if someone had removed my thumb from my body. I was shaking and crying and writhing in agony. I cannot describe how bad it felt. When the swelling kicked in the pain subsided some but kicked back when the swelling went down. I wouldnt wish that pain on anyone. It was so bad I almost passed out and threw up all at the same time. This will never make me go away from monitors if anything just a newer passion has kicked in of trying to understand them. He could have snapped my thumb in half but he didnt either out of luck or he only ment to cause me sue pain not injure me further. He threatens with a tail whip but never follows through this was the first time he even hinted at bitting med it wasnt even a quick bit he just kind of rolled his head back as if he was checking out my fingers and BOOM bite.

[War Machine]

I've been tagged by my sav, and it hurt that's for sure, and the harder you try to remove it, the harder they bite lol. Be thankful he didn't do the death roll, I've seen my white throat do it to a sock he grabbed one time lol

Out of curiosity, when was the last time you fed him prior to biting? I can't go anywhere near the white throat until he's fed lol he bits anything in his path. Hands included! And he distinctly knows the difference between food and hand that's for sure lol

[dinosaurdammit]

I've been tagged by my sav, and it hurt that's for sure, and the harder you try to remove it, the harder they bite lol. Be thankful he didn't do the death roll, I've seen my white throat do it to a sock he grabbed one time lol

Out of curiosity, when was the last time you fed him prior to biting? I can't go anywhere near the white throat until he's fed lol he bits anything in his path. Hands included! And he distinctly knows the difference between food and hand that's for sure lol
he had already been fed i think i may have bothered his nose with the antibiotic cream. It wasnt a malicious bite or a hunger, it was more of a leave me the hell alone you filthy human

[infernalis]

Be thankful he didn't do the death roll

Just a heads up, even Savannah Monitors have that death roll down pat.

I have witnessed it myself, and it happens in a mere second or less.

[BarelyBreathing]

This. From what I've heard, albig bites are quite bad. Deep muscle pains, breaking with a cold sweat, etc.


I've heard that, obviously besides komodos, the tree monitors were the worst. I've had some personal experiences to back that up, too.

[philipniceguy]

I've heard that, obviously besides komodos, the tree monitors were the worst. I've had some personal experiences to back that up, too.

take a bite from a salvadorii or varius and see LOL. I know there bites are bad force not sure but the damage is bad. I'm just lucky not to have taking a bite yet. though I met 4 people now with scars from salvadorii LOL

[RandyRhoads]

herbivore? as far as im aware theres no species of monitors thats a herbivore theres 3 that are frugivores.


Im assuming at this point your aware of the structure of a gila monsters jaw?

where the venom glands line up with the lower jaw?

Same thing in varanids...

why would they need that sort of structure?
The same study is saying iguanas are venomous too? What would be the purpose of that.....

[Pirarucu]

The same study is saying iguanas are venomous too? What would be the purpose of that.....The study says that venom in reptiles developed a long time ago in a common ancestor. Iguanas and many other descendants may no longer possess this venom. It is costly to produce venom, so if it is not of benefit to the animal, the adaptation will vanish or go vestigial.
That said, venom could very easily serve a purpose in iguanas. Venom is not only for hunting and defense.. Venom can also be a digestive aid, or even help maintain oral hygiene. It's a mix of proteins that does something, and that something can be almost anything.

[RandyRhoads]

The study says that venom in reptiles developed a long time ago in a common ancestor. Iguanas and many other descendants may no longer possess this venom. It is costly to produce venom, so if it is not of benefit to the animal, the adaptation will vanish or go vestigial.
That said, venom could very easily serve a purpose in iguanas. Venom is not only for hunting and defense.. Venom can also be a digestive aid, or even help maintain oral hygiene. It's a mix of proteins that does something, and that something can be almost anything.
That's cool BUT saliva contains proteins so if it's only used to aid digestion in a herbivore, what makes it true venom?

[BarelyBreathing]

And remember, not all species of iguana are 100% herbivores.

[RandyRhoads]

And remember, not all species of iguana are 100% herbivores.
Point taken, but humor me, i'm trying to learn. When is something is classified as venom rather than saliva?

[Pirarucu]

That's cool BUT saliva contains proteins so if it's only used to aid digestion in a herbivore, what makes it true venom?Venom is saliva. Venom glands are salivary glands, modified to produce saliva with a specific function. Truthfully it is a very blurred line. It could be argued that all saliva is venom.

[RandyRhoads]

Venom is saliva. Venom glands are salivary glands, modified to produce saliva with a specific function. Truthfully it is a very blurred line. It could be argued that all saliva is venom.
So there is no clear cut line. Thanks.

But that does make it strange that they can now classify monitors as venomous if that's the case. I see problems in buying and owning lizards in our future......

[Pirarucu]

So there is no clear cut line. Thanks.

But that does make it strange that they can now classify monitors as venomous if that's the case. I see problems in buying and owning lizards in our future......Depending on how you are defining it, you could classify almost anything as venomous. But yes, monitors certainly have more potent venom/saliva than others, and unfortunately it will probably raise some problems. Our strong point would be the argument that we can't be sure what the actual purpose of the venom is, and that the venom isn't potent enough to pose a serious threat to humans.

[DragonsEye]

Venom is saliva. Venom glands are salivary glands, modified to produce saliva with a specific function. Truthfully it is a very blurred line. It could be argued that all saliva is venom.

I know this is somewhat straying off topic as your focus is discussion of venom in reptiles. However, as a general "definition" this could lead to misconceptions if applied across the board. So at the risk of being pedantic:

Venom is any poisonous fluid secreted by an animal which is injected/introduced into the body of another organism via biting or stinging. The venoms of many invertebrates, fish, and the platypus are nonsalivary based. While Pirarucu is spot on that the venom glands of snakes and lizards are modified salivary glands (and hence the arguement made that venom is saliva) I would have to disagree with the possible generalization that all saliva is venom.

[varanus_mad]

The same study is saying iguanas are venomous too? What would be the purpose of that.....

Dna plus this vestigial venom glands have shown they share a common ancestor, we have vestigial organds so do they, may serve a purpose now or they may not , proteins are complicated things and do all sorts of wacky st, gilas venom used in developing a treatment for diabetes...

cool stuff...

[Pirarucu]

I know this is somewhat straying off topic as your focus is discussion of venom in reptiles. However, as a general "definition" this could lead to misconceptions if applied across the board. So at the risk of being pedantic:

Venom is any poisonous fluid secreted by an animal which is injected/introduced into the body of another organism via biting or stinging. The venoms of many invertebrates, fish, and the platypus are nonsalivary based. While Pirarucu is spot on that the venom glands of snakes and lizards are modified salivary glands (and hence the arguement made that venom is saliva) I would have to disagree with the possible generalization that all saliva is venom.I agree, I would not go so far as to say that all saliva is venom, just that the argument has been made before.

[Jay]

Can't wait to see the X-rays.

[dinosaurdammit]

Can't wait to see the X-rays.

i pick them up tomorrow if you look at my boa thread the last few seconds i show off my hand.

[AjaMichelle]

Why not on this thread? :)

[dinosaurdammit]

Why not on this thread? :)

Boa update 1:10:2013 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KVKSjqi45Y)

at 8mins and 12 seconds is where i pull off the thumb brace and show off my war wound.

[AjaMichelle]

Dude that's brutal!

[Corey209]

Boa update 1:10:2013 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KVKSjqi45Y)

at 8mins and 12 seconds is where i pull off the thumb brace and show off my war wound.

My buddy messed up a ligament in one of his fingers by dropping a heavy weight on it and after surgery he did get movement back over time. I wish you luck with the recovery.

[Gregg M]

To the OP,
next time you see a cut on your varanid, LEAVE IT ALONE! Varanids and all other repitles do not need antibiotic ointment. They heal very fast on their own. The injury you got from you sav bite is pretty common from that species. Varanus exanthimaicus have crushing bites. The majority of their teeth are very much like molars.

I was bitten by a huge (5 foot +) black throat a few years back. It broke 2 bones in my hand and dislocated my index finger at the middle joint. Very painful indeed. I have been bitten by numerous monitors over thr years but that was by far the worst. With the numerous bites I have endured, none have ever had any signs of envenoming.

As far as them being venomous goes, there are many animals that are considered venomous, however, being venomous does not mean it is dangerous.

Venom is NOT saliva. It is its own mixture of compounds. Also venom glands are NOT salivary glands. Their anatomy is completely different and so is their function.

So while varanids have venom glands their delivery system is piss poor and their bites are not medically significant as far as their toxicity. At least not in any of the species we keep in captivity. Komodos may be a different story as they are the only varanid that would need the venom to subdue prey.

[dinosaurdammit]

To the OP,
next time you see a cut on your varanid, LEAVE IT ALONE! Varanids and all other repitles do not need antibiotic ointment. They heal very fast on their own. The injury you got from you sav bite is pretty common from that species. Varanus exanthimaicus have crushing bites. The majority of their teeth are very much like molars.

I was bitten by a huge (5 foot +) black throat a few years back. It broke 2 bones in my hand and dislocated my index finger at the middle joint. Very painful indeed. I have been bitten by numerous monitors over thr years but that was by far the worst. With the numerous bites I have endured, none have ever had any signs of envenoming.

As far as them being venomous goes, there are many animals that are considered venomous, however, being venomous does not mean it is dangerous.

Venom is NOT saliva. It is its own mixture of compounds. Also venom glands are NOT salivary glands. Their anatomy is completely different and so is their function.

So while varanids have venom glands their delivery system is piss poor and their bites are not medically significant as far as their toxicity. At least not in any of the species we keep in captivity. Komodos may be a different story as they are the only varanid that would need the venom to subdue prey.


i never even said anything about venom to my understanding.

[Gregg M]

i never even said anything about venom to my understanding.

You didnt but it came up in the conversation.

[dinosaurdammit]

You didnt but it came up in the conversation.

yes, i thought though you were directing the venom discussion at me. I honestly know nothing about monitor bites other than they hurt like all hell so I just backed down during the back and forth.

[Gregg M]

yes, i thought though you were directing the venom discussion at me. I honestly know nothing about monitor bites other than they hurt like all hell so I just backed down during the back and forth.

Nope, not directed at anyone. Just adding info to this informative thread. Hope your thumb gets better.

[Gatorhunter1231]

Agreeing with Greg. I'm pretty sure Brian Fry, Australian herpetologist that discovered this, made a few links of common proteins that formed a compound similar to a rattlesnakes. However it's just bits and pieces of the total picture needed to build the complex compounds to make dangerous venom. I have been bite a lot and a scar on my left hand still shows a glancing bite from a 4.5ft croc monitor. Not one species, sav, Nile, tristis, ackies, crocs, black throat, and maybe a few others caused any venom related issues. Thought I was going to bleed out from the croc but nothing liquid bandage and band aids couldn't hold together. I can tell crocs bites are scary. They can cut so clean and fast don't u don't realize you have been bite until blood hits they floor. Then it starts to feel warm, then hurts like hell.