need a little help here

[themeyers]

we just purchased a new addition to our family. she is a tiger retic at the least. she looks more like a super tiger but we will let you be the judge of it. so please tell me what you think is she a super tiger or a tiger. and she has two different colored eyes one is grey and the other is the normal red. and we should add that the grey eye is smaller than the red one. we were wondering if it was something we should worry about. thank you.

[Ivanator]

looks like a normal tiger to me. you don't really need to worry about the eye. I had one that was like that too and he did just fine.

[iBaman]

looks like a normal tiger, but the best way to be sure his check his vent...if he's a super, from his vent to his tail there will be a line. gorgeous regardless! you know these guys get huge, right? ;D

[themeyers]

Yes we know and are excited to watch her grow. Thank you guys.

[reptileexperts]

Normal tiger - ignore the eye as it should not bother her. Welcome to the obsession that is retics :-)

[themeyers]

I cant thank you enough for helping me. and as an update today I feed her frozen for the first time. and with out the slightest bit of hesitation she ate it.

[Terranaut]

ABBDGQKDRYE

Yes they do. Nice retic.

[JustBitten]

To the OP, beautiful baby!


ABBDGQKDRYE

Yes they do. Nice retic.


Oh, wow... I'm aware of the size stats for retics and since they get so huge, didn't bother to look into them more. This is a perfect example of written numbers totally failing to describe the reality of a living animal. Can't get over the speed at that size. If that snake decided she/he wanted to eat someone's face :wacky: Beautiful, but I know I am not cut out for that particular brand of excitement in my life :D

[Terranaut]

To the OP, beautiful baby!





Oh, wow... I'm aware of the size stats for retics and since they get so huge, didn't bother to look into them more. This is a perfect example of written numbers totally failing to describe the reality of a living animal. Can't get over the speed at that size. If that snake decided she/he wanted to eat someone's face :wacky: Beautiful, but I know I am not cut out for that particular brand of excitement in my life :D

Yup. You know the saying?
"What does a 20' retic do? Whatever it likes!!!"

[themeyers]

ABBDGQKDRYE

Yes they do. Nice retic.
this is the exact first video i used to show my fiance how big she WILL get. lol. such beautiful animals. we cant wait till we have our hands full.

[EmbraceCalamity]

ABBDGQKDRYE

Yes they do. Nice retic.I'd feel bad keeping a snake of that size in an enclosure even close to that size. Would be like putting my horse in a dog kennel. :(

~Maggot

[Lankyrob]

I'd feel bad keeping a snake of that size in an enclosure even close to that size. Would be like putting my horse in a dog kennel. :(

~Maggot

I have to agree, with most snakes the "length of the snake should be no longer than the length plus width of the enclosure" rule works fine but when you get a big snake it seems to go out of the wimdow somehow??

I would love to see them in an enclosure like waynes for his savs, with more climbing branches etc to see how much they actually would use the space.

[Mark Taylor]

I have to agree, with most snakes the "length of the snake should be no longer than the length plus width of the enclosure" rule works fine but when you get a big snake it seems to go out of the wimdow somehow??

I would love to see them in an enclosure like waynes for his savs, with more climbing branches etc to see how much they actually would use the space.

I totally agree Rob that thing needs a room not a viv lol

[TalonNC]

I'm not retic expert...but isnt there a chance you DONT get a puppy dog retic like the one in the Youtube...and end up with a Hell Bender like Satan from BHB..?

[Lankyrob]

I'm not retic expert...but isnt there a chance you DONT get a puppy dog retic like the one in the Youtube...and end up with a Hell Bender like Satan from BHB..?

That goes for pretty much every species of snake ;)

[Terranaut]

I would also feel bad if I kept my 20' in something that small(if I had one). 15'x5'x5' would work or a nice bedroom of its own would be good.

[themeyers]

I know what you're saying about the size enclosure. And as for temperament she is a dream I have never had a calmer animal in my life. And she isn't even head shy in the least. Also she never seams to want to be put down. Like she can't get enough of us handling her lol. But thanks for all the help.

[Lankyrob]

I know what you're saying about the size enclosure. And as for temperament she is a dream I have never had a calmer animal in my life. And she isn't even head shy in the least. Also she never seams to want to be put down. Like she can't get enough of us handling her lol. But thanks for all the help.

I just wanted to say that i hope you dont think i was having a go at you when i mentioned the enclosure size, i was just making a comment on the general way of keeping these large snakes :)

Glad you got a nice one, keep the pics coming :)

[iBaman]

I'm not retic expert...but isnt there a chance you DONT get a puppy dog retic like the one in the Youtube...and end up with a Hell Bender like Satan from BHB..?

Those make the best breeders!! ;D

To everyone about the viv size...it seems small, but for most people, it's unrealistic to have a room for a snake like that...let alone enough for breeders. As long as they get out for 'exercise', it's fine. 632 is the favorite size, and once the animal gets over 18ft, it gets put into an 8' viv. just my two cents, since you banned all the retic nation guys...

[EmbraceCalamity]

Those make the best breeders!! ;D

To everyone about the viv size...it seems small, but for most people, it's unrealistic to have a room for a snake like that...let alone enough for breeders. As long as they get out for 'exercise', it's fine. 632 is the favorite size, and once the animal gets over 18ft, it gets put into an 8' viv. just my two cents, since you banned all the retic nation guys...I'd love to see people who can't realistically house them just not own them. Have nothing against them being kept in and of itself, but like I said, this would be like putting my horse in a dog kennel. Even if I took him out for "exercise," it would be considered cruelty. But with a snake, well, who cares? It's 'good enough.'

~Maggot

[iBaman]

I'd love to see people who can't realistically house them just not own them. Have nothing against them being kept in and of itself, but like I said, this would be like putting my horse in a dog kennel. Even if I took him out for "exercise," it would be considered cruelty. But with a snake, well, who cares? It's 'good enough.'

~Maggot

how much do they really move when not hunting, though? not very much. They conserve all of that energy FOR hunting. Once you eliminate the need to hunt, you eliminate the 'need' for a giant space. Our pet store has a very large enclosure for the big snakes. Once they hit 8ft, they stay at the bottom.

[EmbraceCalamity]

how much do they really move when not hunting, though? not very much. They conserve all of that energy FOR hunting. Once you eliminate the need to hunt, you eliminate the 'need' for a giant space. Our pet store has a very large enclosure for the big snakes. Once they hit 8ft, they stay at the bottom.I don't know. How much do they? I've never observed a wild one. But if you let it out for "exercise," then I assume it does move, does it not? So, if given the proper space, wouldn't it move without being let out too?

~Maggot

[iBaman]

I don't know. How much do they? I've never observed a wild one. But if you let it out for "exercise," then I assume it does move, does it not? So, if given the proper space, wouldn't it move without being let out too?

~Maggot

Fair point. When Pajamas is out, he mostly stays on me. Climbs to the top of my head and just sits there. Someday, I want to do an experiment and put him in a big room to 'explore'. All the zoos, pet stores and the like I've been to that have the giant enclosures for them, though, and the snakes just sit near the bottom or up in a tree.

[EmbraceCalamity]

Fair point. When Pajamas is out, he mostly stays on me. Climbs to the top of my head and just sits there. Someday, I want to do an experiment and put him in a big room to 'explore'. All the zoos, pet stores and the like I've been to that have the giant enclosures for them, though, and the snakes just sit near the bottom or up in a tree.I doubt they 'run' around their enclosures, but, if other snakes get appropriately sized enclosures, even ones that generally don't move much like balls, then throwing the rule out of the window because these are bigger is counterintuitive at best.

~Maggot

[iBaman]

Getting the guy's input, one second. (retic nation)

[iBaman]

it's one square foot per foot of snake. So a 6x3, which is what most retic keepers keep their snakes in, will house up to an 18' snake (6x3=18). Any bigger than that, they go in an 8x3, which is 24 feet of snake to house. Think about alllll the arguments we've had on here on how big they REALLY get. 24' is an achievement that DOES NOT happen very often.

[EmbraceCalamity]

it's one square foot per foot of snake. So a 6x3, which is what most retic keepers keep their snakes in, will house up to an 18' snake (6x3=18). Any bigger than that, they go in an 8x3, which is 24 feet of snake to house. Think about alllll the arguments we've had on here on how big they REALLY get. 24' is an achievement that DOES NOT happen very often.Okay? Not sure what your point is.

~Maggot

[iBaman]

you (or someone else) asked why it was okay to house them in such a 'small' cage. I gave the answer.

also...have any of you ever SEEN how big a 6' cage is?

[EmbraceCalamity]

you (or someone else) asked why it was okay to house them in such a 'small' cage. I gave the answer.

also...have any of you ever SEEN how big a 6' cage is?I said I think people shouldn't keep these snakes unless they can appropriately house such huge animals, and most people like to disregard rules that apply to other snakes just because it's not "realistic" due to their size.

~Maggot

[iBaman]

6x3 is appropriate. we'll leave it at that.

[DeesBalls]

I'm not retic expert...but isnt there a chance you DONT get a puppy dog retic like the one in the Youtube...and end up with a Hell Bender like Satan from BHB..?

Satan is a Burm though, not a retic. lol but same idea of the analogy :)

To the OP- make sure to keep us updated with bucnh of pictures.

[EmbraceCalamity]

6x3 is appropriate. we'll leave it at that.I thought the rule was the snake's entire length should be a minimum of 2/3 of the perimeter of the enclosure? So wouldn't that mean an 18' snake should be kept in something that totals 27' in perimeter, like 9'x4.5'? Or am I misunderstanding the rule?

~Maggot

[iBaman]

Where on earth did you get that rule? I had always heard the 1sq ft per foot of snake.

[EmbraceCalamity]

Where on earth did you get that rule? I had always heard the 1sq ft per foot of snake.I don't recall. 1 square foot per foot of snake seems strange when the snake is that thick.

~Maggot

[tommy757]

and the rules ive used for housing my retics are the snake should be no longer than double the length of the enclosure and as for height well no more than 24 in for adults as they are terrestrial and finally width have you ever had to climb in w/ a 60 pound beast with an awe inspiring feeding response to clean no deeper than three feet so to total it up its usually at the extreme 10x3x2 imo and walla healthy happy snakes!

[Pirarucu]

and as for height well no more than 24 in for adults as they are terrestrialExcuse me?

Reticulated python video - Python reticulatus - 11 - ARKive (http://www.arkive.org/reticulated-python/python-reticulatus/video-11.html#mediaCredit)

[Pirarucu]

Where on earth did you get that rule? I had always heard the 1sq ft per foot of snake.And when the snake is more than a foot thick?

[iBaman]

Foot length wise....

[iBaman]

Just because something CAN climb a tree, doesn't mean they're arboreal...that's like saying a lion isn't terrestrial...

[Pirarucu]

Foot length wise....Yes, and when a snake gets big enough to the point that it is a foot wide, that paradigm for cage size is ridiculous. It varies too much from one extreme to another. Take a three foot snake in a 3x1 cage. That fits the rule. Now imagine a thirty foot snake in a 10x3 cage. See my point? The proportions don't stay the same.
Just because something CAN climb a tree, doesn't mean they're arboreal...that's like saying a lion isn't terrestrial...
What sort of flawed logic is that? By that logic, Anacondas don't spend time in water and carpets don't spend time in trees. Look at that video and tell me that animal isn't adapted to climb. Retics are all-terrain vehicles of the snake world. When mine is out roaming, the one direction you can bet he will go is up.

[limey]

I think Frank from Bronx Zoo hit the nail on the head in his latest post about Burmese Pythons. He basically said that if you get a giant snake, you should provide it with a sizable enclosure. A full grown giant should effectively have it's own room and that a 6ft long tank for a 16ft snake is kind of unethical. Not to say that the snake won't stay in reasonable health, but it will be more in "storage" really than living a good life with free roaming space.

I'd second his thoughts on that.

[Pirarucu]

I think Frank from Bronx Zoo hit the nail on the head in his latest post about Burmese Pythons. He basically said that if you get a giant snake, you should provide it with a sizable enclosure. A full grown giant should effectively have it's own room and that a 6ft long tank for a 16ft snake is kind of unethical. Not to say that the snake won't stay in reasonable health, but it will be more in "storage" really than living a good life with free roaming space.

I'd second his thoughts on that.Well said.

[Aaron_S]

Those make the best breeders!! ;D

To everyone about the viv size...it seems small, but for most people, it's unrealistic to have a room for a snake like that...let alone enough for breeders. As long as they get out for 'exercise', it's fine. 632 is the favorite size, and once the animal gets over 18ft, it gets put into an 8' viv. just my two cents, since you banned all the retic nation guys...

Actually only one got banned for making a comment that had a lot of people get their panties in a bunch and report it. (Not me). The rest just left crying to their little circle jerk. Can't handle any opposing views in a mature manner.

Since I saw you run to them already for the "God's truth" on all things retic, tell them to come back. I'm ready for another round.

I'd like to point out the bold part of your statement...maybe that's a reason why NOT to have them? It's unrealistic to keep gators in something so small so people don't do it but it's OKAY for giant pythons? Hmmm. Makes you wonder who's in denial.

[Aaron_S]

I'd love to see people who can't realistically house them just not own them. Have nothing against them being kept in and of itself, but like I said, this would be like putting my horse in a dog kennel. Even if I took him out for "exercise," it would be considered cruelty. But with a snake, well, who cares? It's 'good enough.'

~Maggot

Just because I can see both sides of a coin with an open mind (apparently retic keepers can't) I'd like to state a horse and giant snake are two different things. Horses have an actual need for stimulation. Snakes do not.

I think 6x3 is too small for snakes over 12 feet. I think 18 footers need even bigger enclosures but hey I don't belong to the mythological patheon of retic nation so hey my information doesn't matter.

[EmbraceCalamity]

Just because I can see both sides of a coin with an open mind (apparently retic keepers can't) I'd like to state a horse and giant snake are two different things. Horses have an actual need for stimulation. Snakes do not.

I think 6x3 is too small for snakes over 12 feet. I think 18 footers need even bigger enclosures but hey I don't belong to the mythological patheon of retic nation so hey my information doesn't matter.I'm aware that there are psychological differences, but the fact remains that the 'enclosures' for either are so small that neither animal can move much at all - which isn't a way any animal should be kept, though it is a greater cruelty to some because of the difference you pointed out - and that, with horses, if people can't "realistically" house them, then they usually just don't buy them. But with giant snakes, well, to hell with it; do what you can and the snake will have to make do. So my point was just that it's really sad in either circumstance, disregarding how comparably sad, as I recognise that it's a different level to keep a horse in a kennel than a giant snake in such a small enclosure.

~Maggot

[Aaron_S]

Personally, I've seen giant snakes thrive in larger enclosures so it's not an excuse to keep them in smaller enclosures. Although, I've heard of some do better in tighter confined areas. Brian at BHB has stated as such for Satan.

I do however, understand that a giant enclosure isn't realistic for most people. That's why I suggest they JUST DON'T OWN one. BUUUT they have to compensate somehow and the really awesome sports car is generally too much, or they lost their license already with a DUI or something else as stupid.

[infernalis]

Too many people (not pointing at anyone, it seems to be epidemic in proportion anyway)
are only willing to provide "just enough to survive" and not willing to go the extra mile and provide any sort of quality of life for reptiles.

I see it this way, lock a mammal in and undersized enclosure, and they claw at the walls, make noises, etc.

Most reptiles have no voice, snakes have no legs, so they cannot scratch at the walls of the box, they can't wail out yelps, so they MUST be doing alright, hell it's eating, it looks healthy, what more does it need??

The whole reptile pet trade needs an overhaul, from many different angles.

[Squirtle]

Fair point. When Pajamas is out, he mostly stays on me. Climbs to the top of my head and just sits there. Someday, I want to do an experiment and put him in a big room to 'explore'. All the zoos, pet stores and the like I've been to that have the giant enclosures for them, though, and the snakes just sit near the bottom or up in a tree.Not true. I used to visit a local zoo (The Bronx Zoo) very frequently and they had a Tiger Reticulated Python that, although slowly, moved freely inside its enclosure. There are a lot of videos of it on YouTube, these are just two videos of it.

reticulated python at bronx zoo - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q9Ps7WiONQ)

A Big Python - At The Bronx Zoo - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYsg1x_8mLM)

[Aaron_S]

Wayne,

I don't know how prevalent you were in the hobby on the internet literally 10 years ago but that's when rack systems were pretty much ONLY for breeders. I guess since more people are "breeders" it's taken over more. Besides more animals, less room. Why not?

I know that sounds hypocritical but it isn't. It depends on the species and what you plan to do. I breed ball pythons. They do best in tubs. I personally won't own certain animals because I don't have the room for the required sizes.

For example I'd like tokay geckos but from my knowledge they apparently do best in huge enclosures and actually aren't evil when placed in them.

[Aaron_S]

Not true. I used to visit a local zoo (The Bronx Zoo) very frequently and they had a Tiger Reticulated Python that, although slowly, moved freely inside its enclosure. There are a lot of videos of it on YouTube, these are just two videos of it.

reticulated python at bronx zoo - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q9Ps7WiONQ)

A Big Python - At The Bronx Zoo - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYsg1x_8mLM)

WHOA! Don't use logic and fact when dealing with retic information, it goes against what the patheon of retic god's say so it's not allowed.

I'd only like to add to this quote that Ibaman, just because you haven't seen them move at the pet store or the zoo doesn't mean they don't. You don't spend 24 hours there watching.

[limey]

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, I just wanted to say that I personally would want the best quality of life for any animal I own. Pets shouldn't be "toys" and things that exist only to please us. Of course, it is pleasing to us that we own them and that they are part of our lives but they are living breathing creatures that deserve some semblance of a quality of life.

Thus, if I were to get a giant snake (which is highly unlikely in the near future) then I would ensure it had more than just a 6 ft viv. If I couldn't meet these needs, then I wouldn't get one at all. I see it is becoming increasingly popular to put snakes in undersized enclosures... and I don't agree with it, personally.

[Pirarucu]

It should also noted that the size of the cage is not the only factor. Another is how useful the cage is to the animal. Put one in a twenty foot cage with nothing but a heat mat, a water bowl, and substrate, and of course it won't do anything. There is no behavior because there is no use for behavior. Make a cage with a large pond, multiple basking spots, and lots of climbing structures, and the animal will use every inch of it.
If you had to pick between living in a completely bare room the size of a football field or a small room with a bed, sink, closet, etc.. Which would you pick?

[limey]

It should also noted that the size of the cage is not the only factor. Another is how useful the cage is to the animal. Put one in a twenty foot cage with nothing but a heat mat, a water bowl, and substrate, and of course it won't do anything. There is no behavior because there is no use for behavior. Make a cage with a large pond, multiple basking spots, and lots of climbing structures, and the animal will use every inch of it.
If you had to pick between living in a completely bare room the size of a football field or a small room with a bed, sink, closet, etc.. Which would you pick?

Agree 100%. I don't about the other guys, but you make a lot of sense to me and I feel the same way.

[tommy757]

Well ive been reading this thread and it seems that all of the people who are responsible for the lage snake hobbie are just blithering idiots AKA Bob Clark ,Tom Crutchfield ,Kevin w/ N.e.r.d and so on and so and so on are just slow and unsuccesful in thier care of these awesome creatures along w/ everyone on the RETIC NATION for doing it almost exactly the same as the titans of the hobbie and Im a member there Aaron S. lets do a couple of rounds if ya feel ready its no problem even after the hippocrit says he keeps his poor deprived Balls in a rack w/ tubs .With the logic provided here by the small keepers as well as the guy w/ a very small retic, Balls should be kept in the cages generally approved for retics to give the little guys room to peruse and sand boas should have cages w/ hieght to allow them to climb .SMH some of this discussion is just silly w/ the uninformed and inexperianced preaching off the soapbox

[Lankyrob]

Well ive been reading this thread and it seems that all of the people who are responsible for the lage snake hobbie are just blithering idiots AKA Bob Clark ,Tom Crutchfield ,Kevin w/ N.e.r.d and so on and so and so on are just slow and unsuccesful in thier care of these awesome creatures along w/ everyone on the RETIC NATION for doing it almost exactly the same as the titans of the hobbie and Im a member there Aaron S. lets do a couple of rounds if ya feel ready its no problem even after the hippocrit says he keeps his poor deprived Balls in a rack w/ tubs .With the logic provided here by the small keepers as well as the guy w/ a very small retic, Balls should be kept in the cages generally approved for retics to give the little guys room to peruse and sand boas should have cages w/ hieght to allow them to climb .SMH some of this discussion is just silly w/ the uninformed and inexperianced preaching off the soapbox

So as an experienced keeper can you explain why the common rules for housing change when the snake reaches a certain length? And what length would you say this is? I am really genuinely interested to hear your thoughts on this.

[Aaron_S]

Well ive been reading this thread and it seems that all of the people who are responsible for the lage snake hobbie are just blithering idiots AKA Bob Clark ,Tom Crutchfield ,Kevin w/ N.e.r.d and so on and so and so on are just slow and unsuccesful in thier care of these awesome creatures along w/ everyone on the RETIC NATION for doing it almost exactly the same as the titans of the hobbie and Im a member there Aaron S. lets do a couple of rounds if ya feel ready its no problem even after the hippocrit says he keeps his poor deprived Balls in a rack w/ tubs .With the logic provided here by the small keepers as well as the guy w/ a very small retic, Balls should be kept in the cages generally approved for retics to give the little guys room to peruse and sand boas should have cages w/ hieght to allow them to climb .SMH some of this discussion is just silly w/ the uninformed and inexperianced preaching off the soapbox


Funny how we're all uninformed. When someone apparently has a differing opinion they aren't "informed" or "experienced". I've owned burms and retics. I guess ignorance and closed-minded are requirements to be apart of the Mythical Patheon.

By the way, are we back in the 90s? Where we keep every animal the same? Oh every species needs the same space and environment. Update your information.

My ball pythons are quite fine in their enclosures. It's been PROVEN many times that they do well in smaller enclosures. I have kept dozens of sand boas by the way. Yet to see one climb, no matter what. Mine stay buried.

By the way, I believe if you have a couple ball pythons a proper enclosure,not gigantic either, (not fish cage) is more appropriate than my tubs. I breed my ball pythons so I have a rack system. They thrive and do fine. I also don't breed just five. I have 56 breeding females this season. One of my goals is to make all the wicked cool mutations more common so the price is affordable for everyone.

When you can make a sensible argument instead of just saying we're uninformed and inexperienced you can come back. Make an informed rebuttal.

[tommy757]

the thing our buddy above just said was that his balls do fine in a small enclosure and so do all of our retics and thats the point if it works and well,why change it.
Aaron why so aggressive you show youre inexperiance and ignorance by tryin to beat up on people who dont agree with you ,oh and by the way if any of the big name guys are right not just the private keepers then retics are just fine in 8/10 foot enclosures since bobs been doing it for 30 years right along with the baldagos and tom crutchfield hell man the list goes on and on its no longer opinion when every major player in the game does it the same way and buddy you are inexperianced with maybe 10 years ive got double that also with healthy snakes and a zero mortality rate Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm maybe im doin it right

it seems you justify the tiny tiny enclosure because you breed well congrats but the green eyed monster is starring at ya bud dont get Butt hurt

oh and in the 90,s you were still watchin barney youre first herp while I had real snakes.

[tommy757]

So as an experienced keeper can you explain why the common rules for housing change when the snake reaches a certain length? And what length would you say this is? I am really genuinely interested to hear your thoughts on this.
the method that was always used when I came up was the length of the snake halved by 3 deep and 2 high so a 16 foot snake should have an 8x3x2 most people when imahining a large retic imagine twinkie from PP wher as my 15 foot female is not even in the same league which means in her cage out of 24 sq feet of floor she would be lucky if she used 4 sq feet of it and the rules that everyone keeps mentioning where did the come from and how did they become reptile law if you dont mind me asking?

[EmbraceCalamity]

oh and by the way if any of the big name guys are right not just the private keepers then retics are just fine in 8/10 foot enclosures since bobs been doing it for 30 years...No one here said they're not "fine" in those size enclosures. People are arguing that it's not anywhere near ideal. The issue people take with it is that, despite the fact that they will survive, they won't thrive, as it is not a suitable size for such a large snake. People have decided to keep the enclosures small just because it's more convenient for them, not because it's what's best (not "fine" - best) for the snake.

Personally, I don't want something an animal will be "fine" in. My leopard gecko would be "fine" in a 10 gallon, but I keep her in a 20 long, which is almost double the floor space of what she would be "fine" in. My crocodile gecko would be "fine" in a 10 gallon, but I keep her in a 33 gallon. My kingsnake would be "fine" in a 20 high (for now), but I keep her in a 29 gallon (and will be upgrading her to something larger). I want the best for my reptiles; I want them to thrive, not be "fine." And that is where you and I differ.

~Maggot

[iBaman]

So tell the burm that just destroyed the pet store's nice enclosure (10x6x9) that has a waterfall, plenty of hiding space and that jazz that she NEEDS a huge enclosure. Left her there a week, and she was stressed, didn't stop moving. Put her in a 6ft cage and what do you know...nice and calm.

[EmbraceCalamity]

So tell the burm that just destroyed the pet store's nice enclosure (10x6x9) that has a waterfall, plenty of hiding space and that jazz that she NEEDS a huge enclosure. Left her there a week, and she was stressed, didn't stop moving. Put her in a 6ft cage and what do you know...nice and calm.Wow, wild burms must all be having panic attacks 24/7.

Also, again, no one said these snakes "NEED" huge enclosures. My entire last post was about that very point.

~Maggot

[limey]

No one here said they're not "fine" in those size enclosures. People are arguing that it's not anywhere near ideal. The issue people take with it is that, despite the fact that they will survive, they won't thrive, as it is not a suitable size for such a large snake. People have decided to keep the enclosures small just because it's more convenient for them, not because it's what's best (not "fine" - best) for the snake.

Personally, I don't want something an animal will be "fine" in. My leopard gecko would be "fine" in a 10 gallon, but I keep her in a 20 long, which is almost double the floor space of what she would be "fine" in. My crocodile gecko would be "fine" in a 10 gallon, but I keep her in a 33 gallon. My kingsnake would be "fine" in a 20 high (for now), but I keep her in a 29 gallon (and will be upgrading her to something larger). I want the best for my reptiles; I want them to thrive, not be "fine." And that is where you and I differ.

~Maggot

Exactly. Big snake owners/breeders can keep their retic collection in their proportionately small enclosures and let them stay alive and in reasonable health, but it's far from ideal. It's what's best for the breeder/keeper not what's best for the animal, and that is what you might call unethical. A giant snake needs it's own room with free roaming space, not a 6 foot box.

PM Bronxzoofrank - he's been working with and studying giant snakes longer than some members have been alive.

[Lankyrob]

the method that was always used when I came up was the length of the snake halved by 3 deep and 2 high so a 16 foot snake should have an 8x3x2 most people when imahining a large retic imagine twinkie from PP wher as my 15 foot female is not even in the same league which means in her cage out of 24 sq feet of floor she would be lucky if she used 4 sq feet of it and the rules that everyone keeps mentioning where did the come from and how did they become reptile law if you dont mind me asking?

Thanks for the response. The rule when i got into snakes that i have been brought up with is that the snake needs a viv that if it lies along the length it cant then reach the front of the viv. So a 5ft snake would need something as a minimum that is 3x2ft.

As a newb i assumed that this "rule" applied to all snakes and then saw pictures of (using your own example) a 16ft snake in a viv that only allows 11ft to stretch out.

This was the basis for my initial query in this thread as i wondered at what size the "rule" tha i had been told went out the window and things change.

[tommy757]

So tell the burm that just destroyed the pet store's nice enclosure (10x6x9) that has a waterfall, plenty of hiding space and that jazz that she NEEDS a huge enclosure. Left her there a week, and she was stressed, didn't stop moving. Put her in a 6ft cage and what do you know...nice and calm.
my genetic stripe is the same way

[tommy757]

Thanks for the response. The rule when i got into snakes that i have been brought up with is that the snake needs a viv that if it lies along the length it cant then reach the front of the viv. So a 5ft snake would need something as a minimum that is 3x2ft.

As a newb i assumed that this "rule" applied to all snakes and then saw pictures of (using your own example) a 16ft snake in a viv that only allows 11ft to stretch out.

This was the basis for my initial query in this thread as i wondered at what size the "rule" tha i had been told went out the window and things change.
well you gotta look at it this way if the cage is 8 feet long then the sanke can double back to reach the 16 feet if she did it in a straight line wich they never do theres always a few curves in there if not loops

[Lankyrob]

But sureely doubling back isnt stretching out? And you didnt answer the question about how big the snake needs to be before the "rule" ( bad use of the word i know) changes? Are you saying a six foot snake can go in a three foot enclosure cos it can double back on itself? Please dont think i am trying to be "arsey" about this, i am genuinely interested to know.

[Aaron_S]

the thing our buddy above just said was that his balls do fine in a small enclosure and so do all of our retics and thats the point if it works and well,why change it.
Aaron why so aggressive you show youre inexperiance and ignorance by tryin to beat up on people who dont agree with you ,oh and by the way if any of the big name guys are right not just the private keepers then retics are just fine in 8/10 foot enclosures since bobs been doing it for 30 years right along with the baldagos and tom crutchfield hell man the list goes on and on its no longer opinion when every major player in the game does it the same way and buddy you are inexperianced with maybe 10 years ive got double that also with healthy snakes and a zero mortality rate Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm maybe im doin it right

it seems you justify the tiny tiny enclosure because you breed well congrats but the green eyed monster is starring at ya bud dont get Butt hurt

oh and in the 90,s you were still watchin barney youre first herp while I had real snakes.

Can you please start properly typing and making coherent sentences so I can understand your points easier. Thanks. My kiddie eyes don't read gibberish well.

First of, my argument is they shouldn't be owned in the first place. Nobody needs to own giants. Especially in tiny enclosures. As I said, if you breed, go ahead. All those people you mentioned breed for a living, I believe they are the exception to the rule. We're talking about the person who owns one or two.

It's funny how I'm "aggressive" and not just passionate in my opinion. Yet, the "informed" and "experienced" are the ones who take shots at my character and age. By the way, congratulations for being born before me I'll give you a cookie.

Also, apparently age means experience to you. I've said it multiple times that I've had experience and yet it's washed aside because I don't side with YOU. That's just sad. I'm open-minded to concede my points when given but I have yet to have a solid reason why they should be kept in general.

[Aaron_S]

So tell the burm that just destroyed the pet store's nice enclosure (10x6x9) that has a waterfall, plenty of hiding space and that jazz that she NEEDS a huge enclosure. Left her there a week, and she was stressed, didn't stop moving. Put her in a 6ft cage and what do you know...nice and calm.

Wow..ONE snake (two I guess since Tommy says his genetic stripe is the same). That makes the entire case. I have a ball python that is really feisty so ALL of them in the entire WORLD are the same.

I'd be stressed out too with people gawking at me, probably tapping the glass, in a high traffic area with a waterfall making a lot of vibrations that I can't get away from. Not all animals make good display animals.

How big is/was the burm?

As you stated, people can't deal with large enclosures, so you cram them into really small ones because they do OKAY and so you can have your selfish need to own them. Nothing more about it. Selfish, selfish needs.

Yes, I know the reply you'll make. I keep ball pythons in tubs. Yes, I run a business. It's a different topic compared to the ONE burm or ONE retic.

[Pirarucu]

So tell the burm that just destroyed the pet store's nice enclosure (10x6x9) that has a waterfall, plenty of hiding space and that jazz that she NEEDS a huge enclosure. Left her there a week, and she was stressed, didn't stop moving. Put her in a 6ft cage and what do you know...nice and calm.So why is that definitely a sign of stress? Could that not be natural behavior that most keepers don't recognize as natural, as they aren't able to do so in small cages? In a small cage, they can't behave that way, so it must mean it's a bad thing? I'd be more interested in whether it was eating and drinking regularly... All you seem to have done is proved my earlier point, and said it must be stress, not natural behavior.

[Terranaut]

Was going to leave it alone but here we go.
Bigger is better for the snake. Smaller is better for the keeper.
In the middle somewhere lies a point where the snake will be happy never having been outside and the keeper will be happy it's not something huge. Now too much open space can be an issue. Sticking even this big beast into an empty gymnasium without ground cover and the snake will eventually end up in a corner trying to use 3 sides for cover. In the dark this same snake would lurk every inch of the edge of the gym looking for escape or cover. Now fill that gym with dirt and rocks with some trees and shrubbs and this guy will be in heaven. IMHO bigger has got to always be better if you supply appropriate cover and apparatus for the snake. Snakes stress over open spaces not big enclosures.
I heard a rumour once. They say snakes actually survive ...outside!! You know ... where it's measures in square miles not square inches. ;)

I like the rule mentioned as a minimum but I try to keep my snakes in karge as possible enclosures. Even my royal has a 4x2x16"
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j9/terranaut0/photo-1827.jpg

[tommy757]

Was going to leave it alone but here we go.
Bigger is better for the snake. Smaller is better for the keeper.
In the middle somewhere lies a point where the snake will be happy never having been outside and the keeper will be happy it's not something huge. Now too much open space can be an issue. Sticking even this big beast into an empty gymnasium without ground cover and the snake will eventually end up in a corner trying to use 3 sides for cover. In the dark this same snake would lurk every inch of the edge of the gym looking for escape or cover. Now fill that gym with dirt and rocks with some trees and shrubbs and this guy will be in heaven. IMHO bigger has got to always be better if you supply appropriate cover and apparatus for the snake. Snakes stress over open spaces not big enclosures.
I heard a rumour once. They say snakes actually survive ...outside!! You know ... where it's measures in square miles not square inches. ;)



I like the rule mentioned as a minimum but I try to keep my snakes in karge as possible enclosures. Even my royal has a 4x2x16"
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j9/terranaut0/photo-1827.jpg
and all that sounds great when nature is recycling thier waste and washing everything down when it rains but in captivity that is near impossible and there is also the safty issue for the snake and the keeper .they are not a ball you can pic up and sit on a table to clean the cage its an apex predator that on instinct might strike causing injury to both keeper and snake.Im not just talking retics I dont know about you but I wouldnt wanna take a bite to the face from a 10 foot carpet a more with a more functional design aka known as dividers all the stress on both parties can be avoided does that make sense?

[tommy757]

Can you please start properly typing and making coherent sentences so I can understand your points easier. Thanks. My kiddie eyes don't read gibberish well.

First of, my argument is they shouldn't be owned in the first place. Nobody needs to own giants. Especially in tiny enclosures. As I said, if you breed, go ahead. All those people you mentioned breed for a living, I believe they are the exception to the rule. We're talking about the person who owns one or two.

It's funny how I'm "aggressive" and not just passionate in my opinion. Yet, the "informed" and "experienced" are the ones who take shots at my character and age. By the way, congratulations for being born before me I'll give you a cookie.

Also, apparently age means experience to you. I've said it multiple times that I've had experience and yet it's washed aside because I don't side with YOU. That's just sad. I'm open-minded to concede my points when given but I have yet to have a solid reason why they should be kept in general.
well as you said you a opposed to them being kept at all so it doesnt matter that a huge portion of us use the accepted method of housing?I feel no matter what is said or how its presented you sir are a keyboard warrior who can hide in safety from a legitamite discussion and balk at anyone that has a different view on the same hobbie you sir are the reason we as a hobbie are divided being determined to alienate those that dont agree w/ you...is that the proper response you were looking for?
One final point in youre own words if you profit from them than anything is acceptable so who here is morally bankrupt not I for keeping my animals in clean ,safe,enviroment feeding them only the best and diverse food sources.While they live in a blissful state free from parasites and predators and yes unlike you stuffed into a tub because you make money off thier suffering !Is this clear have a great day running youre puppy mill at least in principle.

[tommy757]

But sureely doubling back isnt stretching out? And you didnt answer the question about how big the snake needs to be before the "rule" ( bad use of the word i know) changes? Are you saying a six foot snake can go in a three foot enclosure cos it can double back on itself? Please dont think i am trying to be "arsey" about this, i am genuinely interested to know.
Rob it has been proven that large snakes are ambush predators that will remain mostly still waitin for somthing to come by for extended periods the three to four times a week my "giants"are out is probably more excercise than they would get in nature in a month long stretch .BTWif you ever noticed that they start to breath loudly after extended movement it probably because they are building up lactic acid wich tires them out .They are panting they arent triathletes they are designed for short bursts of exertion.

It seems that alot of people here are concerned w/ length a six foot GTP would be absolutly good in a three foot enclosure as long as they had places to hang but I would not put a six foot long blood that weighs 30 pounds in a three by three its not just the length that needs to be considered its the width as well as thier natural behaviors so just to tie it in a 7 foot retic is about they width of a D batterie and will generally use considerably less space than a seven foot carpet than is double the width and partially arboreal.does this kinda help?

[Pirarucu]

and all that sounds great when nature is recycling thier waste and washing everything down when it rains but in captivity that is near impossible and there is also the safty issue for the snake and the keeper .they are not a ball you can pic up and sit on a table to clean the cage its an apex predator that on instinct might strike causing injury to both keeper and snake.Im not just talking retics I dont know about you but I wouldnt wanna take a bite to the face from a 10 foot carpet a more with a more functional design aka known as dividers all the stress on both parties can be avoided does that make sense?So what you're saying is it boils down to the keeper wanting to own a large snake, but not wanting to deal with the logistics and effort of housing and caring for one?
well as you said you a opposed to them being kept at all so it doesnt matter that a huge portion of us use the accepted method of housing?I feel no matter what is said or how its presented you sir are a keyboard warrior who can hide in safety from a legitamite discussion and balk at anyone that has a different view on the same hobbie you sir are the reason we as a hobbie are divided being determined to alienate those that dont agree w/ you...is that the proper response you were looking for?
One final point in youre own words if you profit from them than anything is acceptable so who here is morally bankrupt not I for keeping my animals in clean ,safe,enviroment feeding them only the best and diverse food sources.While they live in a blissful state free from parasites and predators and yes unlike you stuffed into a tub because you make money off thier suffering !Is this clear have a great day running youre puppy mill at least in principle.If you read his posts correctly, you would know that he is not opposed to keeping them, he feels like we all do. Don't keep an animal if you don't want to provide for it.
Rob it has been proven that large snakes are ambush predators that will remain mostly still waitin for somthing to come by for extended periods the three to four times a week my "giants"are out is probably more excercise than they would get in nature in a month long stretch .BTWif you ever noticed that they start to breath loudly after extended movement it probably because they are building up lactic acid wich tires them out .They are panting they arent triathletes they are designed for short bursts of exertion.

It seems that alot of people here are concerned w/ length a six foot GTP would be absolutly good in a three foot enclosure as long as they had places to hang but I would not put a six foot long blood that weighs 30 pounds in a three by three its not just the length that needs to be considered its the width as well as thier natural behaviors so just to tie it in a 7 foot retic is about they width of a D batterie and will generally use considerably less space than a seven foot carpet than is double the width and partially arboreal.does this kinda help?Proven by who? Or is it just conventional thought that is repeated so often that it is accepted as true? How many people have gone and observed retics in the wild?
Also, I have never heard heavy breathing. There is new thought going around that most snakes in captivity are somewhat overweight and out of shape, due to diet and small caging. I'd guess that's the cause of your heavy breathing..
I have a retic and a carpet python, both around seven feet. Both climb, and the retic is considerably more active and intelligent...

[EmbraceCalamity]

Rob it has been proven that large snakes are ambush predators that will remain mostly still waitin for somthing to come by for extended periods the three to four times a week my "giants"are out is probably more excercise than they would get in nature in a month long stretch.Do you have a source for this whole statement? I fail to believe that these snakes stay in one spot for 3-4 weeks in the wild. They very well might be ambush predators (though there is proof that they aren't always), but that doesn't mean they stay still. Please read up on the optimal foraging theory.BTWif you ever noticed that they start to breath loudly after extended movement it probably because they are building up lactic acid wich tires them out .They are panting they arent triathletes they are designed for short bursts of exertion.Actually, Burmese pythons can climb trees (particularly when smaller) and are excellent swimmers. But any animal that never gets to move around more than once a month obviously is going to have trouble with it when they finally get to.

~Maggot

[Terranaut]

@Tommy
Wild giants are WAY stronger that captive snakes of the same length. Just ask our resident Bronx Zoo Herp guy. He has in fact handled wild giants and mentioned this in his blogs. A snake my sit in one spot for 3-4 hrs but not weeks. Even a wild nasty ball would be easier to deak with in a large space than a small one and I keep large adult carpets in big 4x4x2 enclosures and they thrive like mad and are both healthy and docile. Actually ny female was about 7' when I got her and was in a very small enclosure with her previous owner. She was very cage defensive and a real handful. Now after being in a proper enclosure sized for her she is cool as a cuccumber and my kids handle her regularly.
If you have some science to back up what your saying I am all ears but I honestly don't think your correct in your last couple statements :(

[Aaron_S]

and all that sounds great when nature is recycling thier waste and washing everything down when it rains but in captivity that is near impossible and there is also the safty issue for the snake and the keeper .they are not a ball you can pic up and sit on a table to clean the cage its an apex predator that on instinct might strike causing injury to both keeper and snake.Im not just talking retics I dont know about you but I wouldnt wanna take a bite to the face from a 10 foot carpet a more with a more functional design aka known as dividers all the stress on both parties can be avoided does that make sense?

Wait? What?

It's unsafe to house these animals. It's a danger to the keeper. Their "instinct" may injure or even kill (proven fact they've killed) and yet it's okay to own them still? None of us really need to argue because your own words do it for us! Keep being the cheap guy who can't afford a nice sports car to compensate. The couple hundred dollar "giants" do just fine I suppose...

[Aaron_S]

well as you said you a opposed to them being kept at all so it doesnt matter that a huge portion of us use the accepted method of housing?I feel no matter what is said or how its presented you sir are a keyboard warrior who can hide in safety from a legitamite discussion and balk at anyone that has a different view on the same hobbie you sir are the reason we as a hobbie are divided being determined to alienate those that dont agree w/ you...is that the proper response you were looking for?
One final point in youre own words if you profit from them than anything is acceptable so who here is morally bankrupt not I for keeping my animals in clean ,safe,enviroment feeding them only the best and diverse food sources.While they live in a blissful state free from parasites and predators and yes unlike you stuffed into a tub because you make money off thier suffering !Is this clear have a great day running youre puppy mill at least in principle.

I am okay with a legit discussion the problem is who it's with, not what it's about. I have facts, honest to god FACTS about my opinions and I have YET to see one from a giant keeper. First it was "they never kill" and then I dug up 6 articles that dates back to the early 90's that they in fact have.

I'm not a keyboard warrior. I'd gladly meet anyone for an actual conversation and not some tongue wagging from a group of people who can't actual make a proper argument with facts. All I ever see are pics of huge retics with people who THINK they have some sort of control.

I don't need to alienate those who disagree with me. I actually have plenty of friends, even on this forum, who disagree with me on things and yet we get along just fine and have GREAT conversation. Heck I even made a member cry and now we have great, well thought out debates for the sheer fun of it. If you or one of the other mythical patheon wish to do so as well feel free to PM me.

Lastly, do you even know what a puppy mill is? I openly admit I'm a farmer but not a puppy mill. My animals aren't sick, bred to death, they are fed properly and clean. Not everything is acceptable for money as I've stated I don't "mill" my animals but it's okay you keep slinging mud at me and try the deflection route.It isn't working though.

[limey]

Tommy, I don't mean to be funny or anything but it does seem like you are trying to deflect or make excuses for the fact that you keep your giant snakes in undersized enclosures. Like everybody has said, that may be best and most practical for the keeper to do so, and I can totally understand that... but it's certainly not what's best for the animal.

Wouldn't you agree?

[Aaron_S]

Tommy, I don't mean to be funny or anything but it does seem like you are trying to deflect or make excuses for the fact that you keep your giant snakes in undersized enclosures. Like everybody has said, that may be best and most practical for the keeper to do so, and I can totally understand that... but it's certainly not what's best for the animal.

Wouldn't you agree?


He won't because we're uninformed and inexperienced. Even if we are those things it isn't enough experience or information because we still don't see their view. LOLOL

[tommy757]

Aron you keepsaying fact fact but its one guy franks opinion he is one herpatoligist not the entire scientific comunity and all this fact you keep saying is still mostly just common practice. no scientific logs published any where other than the internet.

when I say experiance I dont mean w/ snakes in general I mean more than holding a retic in a pet store .you keep saying im taking shots re-read youre posts saying im compensating way to go w/ the ***** jokes very origional .

and as for theorys they are good great and fine but a theory is just that not even close to fact please get a dictionary.

Finally this is just ridiculous and similar to the pack mentality @ monsters oh well enjoy the cheap acolades and I wish you the best oh and a seven foot retic is a baby not an adult .


Ps watch any of the old nat geo back in the day "Iknow im old"theres plenty on retics in the wild". but im done w/this convo youre small keepers and thats youre thing so enjoy youre snakes have a great day even you Aron

[Aaron_S]

Aron you keepsaying fact fact but its one guy franks opinion he is one herpatoligist not the entire scientific comunity and all this fact you keep saying is still mostly just common practice. no scientific logs published any where other than the internet.

when I say experiance I dont mean w/ snakes in general I mean more than holding a retic in a pet store .you keep saying im taking shots re-read youre posts saying im compensating way to go w/ the ***** jokes very origional .

and as for theorys they are good great and fine but a theory is just that not even close to fact please get a dictionary.

Finally this is just ridiculous and similar to the pack mentality @ monsters oh well enjoy the cheap acolades and I wish you the best oh and a seven foot retic is a baby not an adult .


Ps watch any of the old nat geo back in the day "Iknow im old"theres plenty on retics in the wild". but im done w/this convo youre small keepers and thats youre thing so enjoy youre snakes have a great day even you Aron

I don't even know what you're talking about when you mention Frank. I never once brought him up. I think it's funny that you bring him up though considering you don't have a herpetologist preaching for your ideas do you?

When I say experience it isn't from seeing a burm or a retic or even an african rock python in an enclosure at a zoo. I OWNED them buddy but you won't believe it because to you, anyone who owned one would be on YOUR side. That is simply not the case.

You mention theories, you don't have any facts or scientific research to back any of your claims. I have actual DEAD people to say they've killed people and your own words to say how dangerous these animals are! You and others have come here saying "these aren't for everybody", "these are apex predators" "these can't be controlled" "they do what they want". You just own them to hold this whole "holier than thou" attitude over us "small keepers" because you own these giants. The funny thing is we don't put you on a pedestal and you put yourself up there as some "special" group of people who are "good enough" to own them. As I said, it's proven that these animals have killed and will do again.

Lastly, it's funny that it's "pack mentality" but it's just a small number of people who openly share similar views. I'm sure you wouldn't call it "pack mentality" if I came to Retic Nation and everyone there disagreed with me.

You run along now back to your little "man cave" with you and your retic buddies and wait out the next Bill that will claim your animals.

[Pirarucu]

Aron you keepsaying fact fact but its one guy franks opinion he is one herpatoligist not the entire scientific comunity and all this fact you keep saying is still mostly just common practice. no scientific logs published any where other than the internet.

when I say experiance I dont mean w/ snakes in general I mean more than holding a retic in a pet store .you keep saying im taking shots re-read youre posts saying im compensating way to go w/ the ***** jokes very origional .

and as for theorys they are good great and fine but a theory is just that not even close to fact please get a dictionary.

Finally this is just ridiculous and similar to the pack mentality @ monsters oh well enjoy the cheap acolades and I wish you the best oh and a seven foot retic is a baby not an adult .


Ps watch any of the old nat geo back in the day "Iknow im old"theres plenty on retics in the wild". but im done w/this convo youre small keepers and thats youre thing so enjoy youre snakes have a great day even you AronI honestly have no clue what you are trying to say.