Biozome?

[Pirarucu]

I was picking up some plants for a future project the other day, and I found a bag of "Jobe's Organics Fertilizer with Biozome". Essentially the idea is that it is a natural fertilizer which contains lots of stuff such as bacteria, mycorrhizal fungi, and archaea to speed up decomposition and break down nutrients faster for plants to use. Has anyone ever tried this in a planted or bioactive enclosure?

[beardeds4life]

I personally wouldnt. My other hobby is gardening and I can tell you that pretty much all fertilizers that are man made are extremely harsh and in my opinion would not be safe for a reptile.

[Corey209]

I personally wouldnt. My other hobby is gardening and I can tell you that pretty much all fertilizers that are man made are extremely harsh and in my opinion would not be safe for a reptile.

They advertise it online as 100% organic so I doubt it has anything man made unless they're false advertising.

Found some info on biozome > OBI - BioZome (http://www.obio.com/biozome.htm)

[Pirarucu]

Exactly, organic means all-natural. That website says it's 100% safe for everything, so I think I'll be using it in my future cages.

[SpOoKy]

I would personally not put any type of fertalizer around my animals. Plain clean top soil of black earth is all I use.

[Pirarucu]

It really isn't fertilizer as in toxic, it's a bunch of microbes that make things decompose faster, therefore filling the soil with nutrients for the plant to use. It's exactly what happens in nature, just sped up.

[BarelyBreathing]

Unless you can absolutely know 100% of the materials in there, I wouldn't use it.

[Pirarucu]

It's all listed on the bag. One moment.

[Pirarucu]

Here's what the entire side of the bag says:

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:
Total Nitrogen......................................... 4.0%
0.8% Water Soluble Nitrogen
3.2% Water Insoluble Nitrogen
Available Phosphate (P2O5)........................4.0%
Soluble Potash (K2O).................................2.0%
Calcium (Ca)............................................8. 0%
Magnesium (Mg).......................................0.5%
Sulfur (S)............................................... .1.0%

DERIVED FROM:
Feather Meal, Bone Meal, Composted Poultry Manure, Sulfate of Potash.

ALSO CONTAINS NON-PLANT FOOD INGREDIENTS:
Bacteria (CFU's / lb.): Contains 12,606 colony forming units (CFU's) of: Arthrobacter globiformis, Arthrobacter simplex, Azotobacter chroococcum, Azotobacter paspali, Azosprillum lipoferum, Streptomyces griseoflavis, and Pseudomonas fluorescens.

Endomycorrhizae (Propagules / lb.): Contains 24 propagules of: Glomus intraradices and Glomus etunicatum.

Ectomycorrhizae (Propagules / lb.): Contains 294,699 propagules of Pisolithus tinctorus. Contains 19,912 propagules of: Scleroderma cepa, Scleroderma cintrinum, Scleroderma geastrum, Laccaria laccata and Laccaria bicolor.

Archaea (CFU's / lb.): Contains 23,679,698 colony forming units (CFU's) of Nitrosopumilus maritimus.

[beardeds4life]

Just because something is 100% safe for people and pets does NOT mean it is safe for reptiles. By pets they mean that it is safe for dogs and cats. It does not say "safe to use in a reptile vivarium". Things like nitrogen can BURN you. I have had it happen to me. I have used similar products and can tell you I would not be comfortable putting it in my cage. Just because it is labeled as organic does not mean it doesnt have stuff such as sewage sludge. They dont even have to put sewage sludge on the bag. All they would have to put is compost which some dont even do that. If it does have sewage sludge in it I would bet money on how long your animals will live. If you really want to fertilize your plants just make your on compost or vermicompost (worm composting). You could also put worm castings in their (worm poop). Both are wonderful fertilizers that will do much much more than that.

If you really want to go ahead and do it but I would never put that in my viv.

[Pirarucu]

Just because something is 100% safe for people and pets does NOT mean it is safe for reptiles. By pets they mean that it is safe for dogs and cats. It does not say "safe to use in a reptile vivarium". Things like nitrogen can BURN you. I have had it happen to me. I have used similar products and can tell you I would not be comfortable putting it in my cage. Just because it is labeled as organic does not mean it doesnt have stuff such as sewage sludge. They dont even have to put sewage sludge on the bag. All they would have to put is compost which some dont even do that. If it does have sewage sludge in it I would bet money on how long your animals will live. If you really want to fertilize your plants just make your on compost or vermicompost (worm composting). You could also put worm castings in their (worm poop). Both are wonderful fertilizers that will do much much more than that.

If you really want to go ahead and do it but I would never put that in my viv.It doesn't say safe for "pets". It says "BioZome is 100% organic. Safe for humans, animals, fish and wildlife, and the environment." Also, yes nitrogen can bun you, but it is also vital to support life...

[Pirarucu]

I just opened the bag to have a look, it certainly doesn't look or smell like sewage. It looks and smells like dirt. Very healthy dirt at that, it smells alive. You can't describe it, but I'm sure those of you with bioactive setups know what I mean. The white specks appear to be bone.

http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy75/Agigas/P1030270_zps699656ad.jpg

[totheend]

MSDS states: Warning - This clay product contains a small amount of crystalline silica which may cause delayed respiratory disease if inhaled over a prolonged and extended period of time. Avoid breathing the dust.

This is the only health hazard on the MSDS. And this refers to human safety.

[Pirarucu]

MSDS states: Warning - This clay product contains a small amount of crystalline silica which may cause delayed respiratory disease if inhaled over a prolonged and extended period of time. Avoid breathing the dust.

This is the only health hazard on the MSDS. And this refers to human safety.And playsand is even worse in that regard, but we use it for reptiles all the time. The only time you ever have to worry about the dust from the sand is if you dump a big bag into the cage, then it goes everywhere. Once it settles though, it's no problem.

[totheend]

And playsand is even worse in that regard, but we use it for reptiles all the time. The only time you ever have to worry about the dust from the sand is if you dump a big bag into the cage, then it goes everywhere. Once it settles though, it's no problem.

I was just stating what the MSDS says. It's really the only concern. And I'm not saying it's a huge concern, I don't know. I am not familiar with the product at all.

[Pirarucu]

I know, I was just pointing out for others how minimal of a concern that is.

[beardeds4life]

Just because it doesnt smell like sewage sludge doesnt mean it is not their. That is the whole point of composting. I have no idea if it is in that particular product or not I am just saying.

You can do whatever the hell you want I am just saying that I would never put that in my animals enclosure. If you want to be my guest.

[Corey209]

Just because it doesnt smell like sewage sludge doesnt mean it is not their. That is the whole point of composting. I have no idea if it is in that particular product or not I am just saying.

You can do whatever the hell you want I am just saying that I would never put that in my animals enclosure. If you want to be my guest.

It's better to have someone test this and see if his animals turn out unharmed or not just like with any other substance. If whatever he puts inside dies, that's sad but it's also educational.

[EmbraceCalamity]

OP, if you want to use it, it's up to you. I doubt anyone's tried it yet. You might want to ask bronxzoofrank what he thinks, as I'm sure he's more experienced than anyone here and could probably give you the best answer. They advertise it online as 100% organic so I doubt it has anything man made unless they're false advertising.

Found some info on biozome > OBI - BioZome (http://www.obio.com/biozome.htm)There are few regulations on what they can call "organic." Just like they can call hens like these "free range":
http://oosterman.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/free-range-chickens-01-sm.jpg

~Maggot

[Corey209]

OP, if you want to use it, it's up to you. I doubt anyone's tried it yet. You might want to ask bronxzoofrank what he thinks, as I'm sure he's more experienced than anyone here and could probably give you the best answer. There are few regulations on what they can call "organic." Just like they can call hens like these "free range":
http://oosterman.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/free-range-chickens-01-sm.jpg

~Maggot

Organic vs Chemical Fertilizers (http://www.organicgardeningguru.com/fertilizers.html)
^ Some info on Organic vs Chemical I found if anyone wants to read.

He could always use this fertilizer on his plants get them growing, then after that use regular untreated soil before putting any live animals inside. Not sure if this would make a difference though.

[EmbraceCalamity]

Organic vs Chemical Fertilizers (http://www.organicgardeningguru.com/fertilizers.html)
^ Some info on Organic vs Chemical I found if anyone wants to read.

He could always use this fertilizer on his plants get them growing, then after that use regular untreated soil before putting any live animals inside. Not sure if this would make a difference though.That's fine, but my point is that just because it's advertised as "organic," that doesn't mean it necessarily is what people think of when they hear "organic." Pick up some "organic" body wash at the store and check out the ingredients sometime. Not very pretty.

~Maggot

[Corey209]

That's fine, but my point is that just because it's advertised as "organic," that doesn't mean it necessarily is what people think of when they hear "organic." Pick up some "organic" body wash at the store and check out the ingredients sometime. Not very pretty.

~Maggot

Is there anywhere I can find a list of "organics" that aren't exactly safe? and yeah you're right organic doesn't always necessarily mean safe. I've heard that some woods are bad for the health of reptiles and they're organic but I don't know if that is a fact or not.

[EmbraceCalamity]

Is there anywhere I can find a list of "organics" that aren't exactly safe?How would I know? And I don't know what you mean by a "list of organics." There just isn't much regulation on the whole thing, so people can basically do whatever the hell they want.

~Maggot

[Zoo Nanny]

http://www.groworganic.com/media/pdfs/iso300-m.pdf
Once an MSDS sheet says that it can cause respiratory issues in humans from inhaling it during general use it is unsafe to use for animals in confined areas. There is minimal air flow within an enclosure which keeps the agent active for a longer period of time. I would suggest if you use it to mix your substrate out doors. Then wait a week or so before adding the new substrate into the tank. During this time period I would also mist and mix it frequently to ensure that there are no concentrated areas that the animal will come in contact with. Working at the zoo once we saw respiratory irritant on any chemical we avoided using it near areas that any animals would come in direct contact with.

[EmbraceCalamity]

And playsand is even worse in that regard, but we use it for reptiles all the time. The only time you ever have to worry about the dust from the sand is if you dump a big bag into the cage, then it goes everywhere. Once it settles though, it's no problem.Thought it was supposed to be washed before use for that exact reason?http://www.groworganic.com/media/pdfs/iso300-m.pdf
Once an MSDS sheet says that it can cause respiratory issues in humans from inhaling it during general use it is unsafe to use for animals in confined areas. There is minimal air flow within an enclosure which keeps the agent active for a longer period of time. I would suggest if you use it to mix your substrate out doors. Then wait a week or so before adding the new substrate into the tank. During this time period I would also mist and mix it frequently to ensure that there are no concentrated areas that the animal will come in contact with. Working at the zoo once we saw respiratory irritant on any chemical we avoided using it near areas that any animals would come in direct contact with.That's kind of like the shavings they use for horses. They're known to be very dusty, so some barns choose other alternatives. Barns with a lot of ventilation or run-in sheds aren't a concern because there's plenty of air flow. But, like a well-sealed barn, most enclosures don't allow enough ventilation to guarantee this wouldn't be an issue, so I personally wouldn't use it.

~Maggot

[Pirarucu]

I should point out that this would not be added straight to the cage. It would be a very small amount mixed in with some normal organic dirt, per the instructions. It's a half cup per five gallons of soil. Not exactly a huge amount..

Biozome is simply what they're calling a fast-acting species of archaea, which is a natural decomposer.
The product I have is simply bone meal, feather meal, sulfate of potash, composted manure, bacteria, fungi, and archaea. In other words, it's all the microbe decomposers you would find in nature plus some stuff for those microbes to break down, and a natural mineral for plants.

[beardeds4life]

You can say anything is organic. As long as you dont say fda approved (it is something like that I cant remember which one regulates that) you can say anything is organic.

I would also like to point out that it says derived from composted poultry manure. That means that all the chemicals/ unorganics that get fed to poultry will be in their.

You seem like you want to do it so like said go ahead. We will know wether it is safe or not. But I wouldnt risk my animals life.

[Pirarucu]

If I do use it, it will be in a large, planted enclosure (~8'x3'x4') which will be populated with native reptiles and amphibians while the permanent occupants are acquired and grown a little to make sure they are all eating well. If the anoles, frogs, and skinks keep dropping dead, we'll have our answer.

[Corey209]

If I do use it, it will be in a large, planted enclosure (~8'x3'x4') which will be populated with native reptiles and amphibians while the permanent occupants are acquired and grown a little to make sure they are all eating well. If the anoles, frogs, and skinks keep dropping dead, we'll have our answer.

Are you going to be putting all animals from a specific locality?

[beardeds4life]

If I do use it, it will be in a large, planted enclosure (~8'x3'x4') which will be populated with native reptiles and amphibians while the permanent occupants are acquired and grown a little to make sure they are all eating well. If the anoles, frogs, and skinks keep dropping dead, we'll have our answer.

If they are native reptiles why even use it? Use native soil which will be fine for everything AND have a lot of microorganisms in it. More so than the biozome. Then their will already be worms and springtails in their to but if you want more you can buy those. If you really want a fertilizer use compost. Another reason I would not recommend the biozome from a horticultural point of view is that it will make the plants grow much faster and larger so thus they would need a lot of pruning. That is why it is generally not recommended to fertilize plants in vivs. All the nutrients they will ever need and then some will come from all the microorganisms and the animals in their.

[Aaron_S]

I would say no to it.

Maggot already mentioned what I was going to say. The regulations for calling something "organic" aren't very strict. I know for food to be considered "all natural" it's a small percentage of the actual ingredients so I wouldn't doubt it's the same.

Besides, the MSDS already says what we need to be aware of.

[Pirarucu]

The natives would simply be a filler until the permanent residents go in. Once the Ackies go in, I expect the natives will become lunch... And if plants are going to survive in a cage with monitors, I expect they'll need all the help they can get..
Overall I really just don't think it's dangerous, between being designed to be eco-friendly and such a small amount going in.. But the natives will test that I suppose.

I should note that this is all in the planning stage. The only steps that have been taken are locating potential sources, planning the cage, and stockpiling cash. It may not happen at all.

[Pirarucu]

Perhaps in the meantime I'll make something smaller scale and put some stuff in it to test the Biozome.

[EmbraceCalamity]

The natives would simply be a filler until the permanent residents go in. Once the Ackies go in, I expect the natives will become lunch... And if plants are going to survive in a cage with monitors, I expect they'll need all the help they can get..
Overall I really just don't think it's dangerous, between being designed to be eco-friendly and such a small amount going in.. But the natives will test that I suppose.

I should note that this is all in the planning stage. The only steps that have been taken are locating potential sources, planning the cage, and stockpiling cash. It may not happen at all.Not to be a smartass, but if you don't think it's dangerous (though I think everyone has unanimously agreed it's too big of a risk and given good evidence of that fact and you've just brushed us all off), why'd you even bother asking?

And the fact that they might not die right away (or at all) wouldn't necessarily mean it would be safe, so you can't really "test" it.

~Maggot

[beardeds4life]

To really know if it is safe you have to do long term studies. Just because it doesnt die from it does not mean it is safe or healthy. I wouldnt die from putting that on my garden and eating veggies from it but it wouldn't be very healthy.

[SpOoKy]

Personally I don't agree with thrying out the safety with native animals before putting others in. Is this because the native animals will be free from outside so it doesn't matter if they die? Testing something with the life of animals is not the greatest idea in my eyes.

[jarich]

Not to be a smartass, but if you don't think it's dangerous (though I think everyone has unanimously agreed it's too big of a risk and given good evidence of that fact and you've just brushed us all off), why'd you even bother asking?

And the fact that they might not die right away (or at all) wouldn't necessarily mean it would be safe, so you can't really "test" it.

~Maggot

It's funny that on this forum, anytime someone starts with, "not to be a..." they always seem to mean, "I'm about to be...".

Do tell EC, what "good evidence" have you given? Youve given what you usually give, which is conjecture and a lack of solid evidence or experience. Stop acting as if your advice is some sort of definitive proof. You own corn snakes, it seems this should be the limit of your scope of advice. What was being asked for was a solid reason not to use it, which is valid. The op wasn't asking for a bunch of 'feelings' about what is or isn't considered organic or all natural.

Piraracu, I'd agree that it seems unlikely that adding a small amount of this is going to be a problem. I'm not sure if there will be much advantage to it, but it hardly seems like there's going to be a problem with it. What would be interesting from a scientific standpoint would be to have two setups; one with this biozome, and one without.

[Pirarucu]

I'll also point out that you are misquoting me, as I only asked if anyone had used it. This thread was not intended to be a debate about safety, it was intended to gain from other's experiences. I believe it is safe, all it really is is something which would kick start a bioactive setup.
Also, I was planning to put natives in first even before I found this stuff, for the same reason. To get the bioactive setup up and running before introducing monitors, and to let the plants become well established before putting them to the test. Truthfully, "native" was not the best word to use. Brown anoles would be the main first inhabitants. They are taking over around here.. Tree frogs are hard to find around here, so those would be native but not wild caught. I'll be buying those from a store. Skinks would only go in if I could find some, and even then perhaps not.

[beardeds4life]

Do tell EC, what "good evidence" have you given? Youve given what you usually give, which is conjecture and a lack of solid evidence or experience. Stop acting as if your advice is some sort of definitive proof. You own corn snakes, it seems this should be the limit of your scope of advice. What was being asked for was a solid reason not to use it, which is valid. The op wasn't asking for a bunch of 'feelings' about what is or isn't considered organic or all natural

I agree what "good evidence" have you given?

[Aaron_S]

I agree what "good evidence" have you given?

Maggot didn't give the evidence but others have. You can blame her for everything if you prefer since she's simply a scape goat.

The MSDS states NOT to breath it in over a prolonged period of time. What do you people think the animals will breath? Magical air from the air fairies?

Also, it's been noted that most things claimed to be organic are NOT necessarily organic. I am not stating that it is FOR SURE true with the product in question but it certainly does deem more research into those type of laws for "organic" soils and garden supplies.

So no reason to jump all over Maggot since she gave what was only her opinion and thoughts.

[EmbraceCalamity]

It's funny that on this forum, anytime someone starts with, "not to be a..." they always seem to mean, "I'm about to be...".

Do tell EC, what "good evidence" have you given? Youve given what you usually give, which is conjecture and a lack of solid evidence or experience. Stop acting as if your advice is some sort of definitive proof. You own corn snakes, it seems this should be the limit of your scope of advice. What was being asked for was a solid reason not to use it, which is valid. The op wasn't asking for a bunch of 'feelings' about what is or isn't considered organic or all natural. I don't own corn snakes. Look at that conjecture. :) And it was pointed out by not just myself that the fact that it's advertised as "organic" means next to nothing, as there are very few regulations on what can be called "organic." (Also, how are regulations = to feelings? Seems like more conjecture.) Someone also pointed out that this stuff has a warning that if used in enclosed spaces it is known to cause respiratory problems in animals as large as humans. That seems like a decent reason to not use it in a reptile enclosure.

~Maggot

[Corey209]

How is the term "organic" regulated? (http://www.fda.gov/AboutFDA/Transparency/Basics/ucm214871.htm)
Agricultural Marketing Service - National Organic Program (http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/nop)
Here's a link that has some info about organics.


I know for a fact that the USDA regulates local organic farms in my area. "Organic is a labeling term that indicates that the food or other agricultural product has been produced through approved methods that integrate cultural, biological, and mechanical practices that foster cycling of resources, promote ecological balance, and conserve biodiversity. Synthetic fertilizers, sewage sludge, irradiation, and genetic engineering may not be used." The term organic isn't necessarily loosely interpreted but I do not think USDA regulates stuff like fertilizer so they could probably put anything they feel is "organic" in it.

[EmbraceCalamity]

How is the term "organic" regulated? (http://www.fda.gov/AboutFDA/Transparency/Basics/ucm214871.htm)
Here's a link that has some info about organics.

@Maggot, in the Central Valley of California (this is the only area I know about) they make sure that organic crops are actually grown without any inorganic chemicals. Not sure if they regulate everywhere like this or if it's only a local thing though.That's for produce, which is one that I'd actually trust, as "organic" produce isn't genetically engineered or covered with toxic pesticides or grown with chemical fertilizers. Everything else, not so much.

~Maggot

[Corey209]

That's for produce, which is one that I'd actually trust, as "organic" produce isn't genetically engineered or covered with toxic pesticides or grown with chemical fertilizers. Everything else, not so much.

~Maggot

I had just edited my post clarifying that :p Like you said, anything the USDA doesn't regulate can be abused.

Agricultural Marketing Service - Organic Standards (http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/ams.fetchTemplateData.do?template=TemplateN&navID=NOSBlinkNOSBMeetings&rightNav1=NOSBlinkNOSBMeetings&topNav=&leftNav=&page=NOPOrganicStandards&resultType=&acct=nopgeninfo)

I wouldn't trust anything "organic" that doesn't have the USDA seal on it.

Apparently there's another seal that I've never heard of.
Identifying Organic Fertilizers | Organic. It’s Worth It (http://www.organicitsworthit.org/grow/identifying-organic-fertilizers)

And I've found proof that Jobe's organic fertilizer is NOT organic. They have no seal or certification plus they use ammonium sulfate and potassium chloride neither of which are organic.

[beardeds4life]

OMRI is the more reliable one. They actually test products and trace ingredients so anything with the OMRI seal of approval is guaranteed organic.

[Corey209]

OMRI is the more reliable one. They actually test products and trace ingredients so anything with the OMRI seal of approval is guaranteed organic.

Apparently someone called OMRI about Jobe's and OMRI restricted them from being certified but it was "miscommunication" and they were trying to clear it up.

[EmbraceCalamity]

OMRI is the more reliable one. They actually test products and trace ingredients so anything with the OMRI seal of approval is guaranteed organic.I was looking at stuff for the USDA, and I found this: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/23/business/23beet.html?_r=0

Can't trust anyone. Hope they're better.

~Maggot

[beardeds4life]

I was looking at stuff for the USDA, and I found this: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/23/business/23beet.html?_r=0

Can't trust anyone. Hope they're better.

~Maggot

This has been going on for years. Most of the food you eat is genetically engineered and covered in things like roundup.

[jarich]

Maggot didn't give the evidence but others have. You can blame her for everything if you prefer since she's simply a scape goat.

The MSDS states NOT to breath it in over a prolonged period of time. What do you people think the animals will breath? Magical air from the air fairies?

Also, it's been noted that most things claimed to be organic are NOT necessarily organic. I am not stating that it is FOR SURE true with the product in question but it certainly does deem more research into those type of laws for "organic" soils and garden supplies.

So no reason to jump all over Maggot since she gave what was only her opinion and thoughts.

No, there was no evidence given. The MSDS states for humans not to breathe silica dust over time. ALL clay contains silica, every bit of it on the globe. So this evidence is not evidence after all when someone actually looks closer into it. Given this 'evidence' we shouldnt use any soil with clay in it ever, and animals all over the globe that live in burrows should really be in trouble.

The degree to what things are organic or not has little bearing on the discussion. Who cares? The ingredients are listed for this product and none of them are problematic. It might be one thing if the OP was using nothing but this as substrate, but as stated many times, they are just using a bit mixed with the soil. What difference does it make if the USDA lists it as organic? None.

The reason I commented on this to Maggot is because she seems to have no experience or research in these things that she commonly states 'definitively' are true to others, then jumps down their throats for it. I think she should stop trying to give advice about things she knows so little about, and especially stop stating that she is somehow able to distinguish truth, fact, or evidence, when she has no frame of reference with which to do so. As in this case, so should you, Aaron.

[Corey209]

No, there was no evidence given. The MSDS states for humans not to breathe silica dust over time. ALL clay contains silica, every bit of it on the globe. So this evidence is not evidence after all when someone actually looks closer into it. Given this 'evidence' we shouldnt use any soil with clay in it ever, and animals all over the globe that live in burrows should really be in trouble.

The degree to what things are organic or not has little bearing on the discussion. Who cares? The ingredients are listed for this product and none of them are problematic. It might be one thing if the OP was using nothing but this as substrate, but as stated many times, they are just using a bit mixed with the soil. What difference does it make if the USDA lists it as organic? None.

The reason I commented on this to Maggot is because she seems to have no experience or research in these things that she commonly states 'definitively' are true to others, then jumps down their throats for it. I think she should stop trying to give advice about things she knows so little about, and especially stop stating that she is somehow able to distinguish truth, fact, or evidence, when she has no frame of reference with which to do so. As in this case, so should you, Aaron.

No matter what it's not actually organic and it can be avoided.

[Pirarucu]

No matter what it's not actually organic and it can be avoided.Firstly, there is nothing saying it is not organic. Only that it is possible, due to limited restrictions.
Secondly, do you keep your reptiles in cages where they absolutely never come into contact with things that aren't organic? Didn't think so.
Thirdly, as Jarich pointed out, (Well said!) the MSDS tells us everything we need to know about it, and there are no dangers. Silica is everywhere, it's not a threat. Animals burrow in and even eat silica filled clay all the time.

[Corey209]

Firstly, there is nothing saying it is not organic. Only that it is possible, due to limited restrictions.
Secondly, do you keep your reptiles in cages where they absolutely never come into contact with things that aren't organic? Didn't think so.
Thirdly, as Jarich pointed out, (Well said!) the MSDS tells us everything we need to know about it, and there are no dangers. Silica is everywhere, it's not a threat. Animals burrow in and even eat silica filled clay all the time.

I already listed two materials jobes uses in his fertilizers that prove it's not organic. I don't keep my reptile sitting in fertilizer when there's heat and humidity which is COMPLETELY different from having a reptile around inorganic materials. Everyone has already explained this wouldn't be smart to do but I honestly don't give a rats *** if you do or not. I doubt they've tested how safe it is for wildlife inside a small enclosure that isn't well ventilated. But go ahead and prove to us whether your animals live or not because since the start you have already had your mind made up. This thread was worthless and should have never been made if you're not going to listen to anyone.

[shaunyboy]

That's fine, but my point is that just because it's advertised as "organic," that doesn't mean it necessarily is what people think of when they hear "organic." Pick up some "organic" body wash at the store and check out the ingredients sometime. Not very pretty.

~Maggot

^^^^^
i agree just because something is organic or natural,does not make it safe

i also hate it when people say its ok for humans,so its ok for reptiles...

pine sap/oil don't hurt humans,but it kills Carpet Pythons stone dead

i would be carefull and do research on anything labled organic or natural

cheers shaun

[Pirarucu]

I already listed two materials jobes uses in his fertilizers that prove it's not organic. I don't keep my reptile sitting in fertilizer when there's heat and humidity which is COMPLETELY different from having a reptile around inorganic materials. Everyone has already explained this wouldn't be smart to do but I honestly don't give a rats *** if you do or not. I doubt they've tested how safe it is for wildlife inside a small enclosure that isn't well ventilated. But go ahead and prove to us whether your animals live or not because since the start you have already had your mind made up. This thread was worthless and should have never been made if you're not going to listen to anyone.I would say the thread was worthless from the start because nobody actually read it the way it was supposed to be read. The meaning was "What are your experiences with this?" not "Is this safe?". It is an absolutely tiny amount of bone and feather meal, chicken feces, microscopic decomposers, and a naturally occurring mineral. I honestly see no way that such a tiny amount of stuff would hurt anything at all. I asked for personal experiences, not a bunch of personal opinions and guesswork.

[shaunyboy]

I would say the thread was worthless from the start because nobody actually read it the way it was supposed to be read. The meaning was "What are your experiences with this?" not "Is this safe?". It is an absolutely tiny amount of bone and feather meal, chicken feces, microscopic decomposers, and a naturally occurring mineral. I honestly see no way that such a tiny amount of stuff would hurt anything at all. I asked for personal experiences, not a bunch of personal opinions and guesswork.

from what i read on this thread,i and the people posting obviously have no personal experience with this product,but.....

they voiced their concern on how safe it would be for your reptile,they base their concern on the products ingrediants...

you have obviously dismissed their concerns when you say... " I honestly see no way that such a tiny amount of stuff would hurt anything at all. I asked for personal experiences, not a bunch of personal opinions and guesswork "

regards your statment " no way such a tiny amount of stuff would hurt anything ".....

one natural product comes to mind,pine oil,pine sap,pine resin...

a " tiny " amount of that will kill a python quickly

personally i would take on board peoples concerns,then go research EVERY listed ingrediant in the product,before i used it with my reptiles,because no one on here can vouch for it being safe

that said,it may well be safe...

but for your reptiles sake,i would err on the side of caution

cheers shaun

[EmbraceCalamity]

I did do a search for this stuff having been used with reptiles, and I found absolutely nothing. I doubt it's ever even been tried by anyone. And I don't think anyone claimed it would kill it or it would definitely be terrible; we're only pointing out that you really can't be sure and it's better to just air on the side of caution if you don't know. Also, I suggested talking to Frank, but I don't know if that advice has been taken either.

~Maggot

[Pirarucu]

from what i read on this thread,i and the people posting obviously have no personal experience with this product,but.....

they voiced their concern on how safe it would be for your reptile,they base their concern on the products ingrediants...

you have obviously dismissed their concerns when you say... " I honestly see no way that such a tiny amount of stuff would hurt anything at all. I asked for personal experiences, not a bunch of personal opinions and guesswork "

regards your statment " no way such a tiny amount of stuff would hurt anything ".....

one natural product comes to mind,pine oil,pine sap,pine resin...

a " tiny " amount of that will kill a python quickly

personally i would take on board peoples concerns,then go research EVERY listed ingrediant in the product,before i used it with my reptiles,because no one on here can vouch for it being safe

that said,it may well be safe...

but for your reptiles sake,i would err on the side of caution

cheers shaunI have researched every ingredient, none of it is harmful. That's why I'm trying to figure out why everyone is so upset about it. Probably because I used the word "fertilizer"... That's like saying "particle substrate" on a Bearded Dragon forum...

[Corey209]

I have researched every ingredient, none of it is harmful. That's why I'm trying to figure out why everyone is so upset about it. Probably because I used the word "fertilizer"... That's like saying "particle substrate" on a Bearded Dragon forum...

It is technically a fertilizer and it's not certified with ANYONE to be considered organic. I already posted two ingredients that are not organic and Jobe's has had some bad reviews. Why not just find something that's actually certified organic and not even risk your animals health at all?

[Pirarucu]

It is technically a fertilizer and it's not certified with ANYONE to be considered organic. I already posted two ingredients that are not organic and Jobe's has had some bad reviews. Why not just find something that's actually certified organic and not even risk your animals health at all?Correction, it makes fertilizer. It is a bunch of natural decomposers. What were the ingredients?

[Pirarucu]

Also, I suggested talking to Frank, but I don't know if that advice has been taken either.I did not see that until now, I shot him a PM.

[EmbraceCalamity]

I did not see that until now, I shot him a PM.I already did it.

~Maggot

[bronxzoofrank]

Hi all,

I'm not familiar with the product, but a few things pop into mind: the use of the term "Organic", as far as I know, is not regulated..i.e. there are no industry or gov't standards that must be met before applying to a product. This may or may not be important to your intended use.

Marine and, increasingly, fresh water aquarists, use "live sand, live rock" to assist in filtration, maintain healthy substrate etc. In both zoo and home terrestrial enclosures, I have used leaf litter, collected topsoil, decaying wood and such in a similar manner; there are some concerns...where you collect, species kept, introduction of predators, etc., but the parasite/disease concerns often raised have not materialized (over decades, and such still in use at some major zoos)., These materials likely function in a similar way to the product in question.That being said, pl research or write in if you are unsure. The main benefit of such is seen in planted terrariums housing smaller amphibs, inverts..not sure if much of a difference would be seen in most other situations. Along these lines., sowbugs can also be useful in some situations (pl see here Terrestrial Isopods (Sowbugs, Pillbugs, Potato Bugs) As Food for Captive Reptiles and Amphibians | That Reptile Blog That Reptile Blog (http://bitly.com/Mds9PY)). Live plants alone, in the right situations, can also work wonders.

I've looked over the ingredients list quickly, but am not sure about safety, etc. I noticed chicken manure was listed....Years ago concerns were raised over the use of chicken manure as goldfish food in commercial goldfish rearing operations(common in some regions)..could Salmonella be transferred to people that keep fish, or to animals that eat the fish? Of course, there are 1,500+ plus Salmonella species, with varying life histories, so no way to predict w/o detailed studies (none to date, far as I know), just a thought. Sorry, rushing here and rambling, best, Frank

[Pirarucu]

Marine and, increasingly, fresh water aquarists, use "live sand, live rock" to assist in filtration, maintain healthy substrate etc. In both zoo and home terrestrial enclosures, I have used leaf litter, collected topsoil, decaying wood and such in a similar manner; there are some concerns...where you collect, species kept, introduction of predators, etc., but the parasite/disease concerns often raised have not materialized (over decades, and such still in use at some major zoos)., These materials likely function in a similar way to the product in question.This was my first thought when I saw the product, I viewed it as having the same function as the live sand and live rock used in aquariums.

[beardeds4life]

Chickens are fed some nasty stuff and so in turn that would be in their manure. I have also known some fertilizers to be infested with bug eggs and such.

[bronxzoofrank]

Chickens are fed some nasty stuff and so in turn that would be in their manure. I have also known some fertilizers to be infested with bug eggs and such.

Very true; I used to drink raw eggs as a kid (common among Italian American;'s of my parent's generation, so I took to it early) - bad move! I guess chickens were "cleaner" in the old days; I came down with Salmonella right away! Happy new year, Frank

[Pirarucu]

True, though the bugs would not be a problem, the idea is to have a living soil...

[Aaron_S]

No, there was no evidence given. The MSDS states for humans not to breathe silica dust over time. ALL clay contains silica, every bit of it on the globe. So this evidence is not evidence after all when someone actually looks closer into it. Given this 'evidence' we shouldnt use any soil with clay in it ever, and animals all over the globe that live in burrows should really be in trouble.

I've been away and I wanted to make a comment on this part in particular.

The difference between the animals in burrows and the animals in our homes is that they are in small containers compared to what they get in the wild. They can move from one burrow to the next. ALSO, they get the SAME air flow on a regular basis. It's not like us, where we go out to the mall, work, dinner. Leaving the house. Our animals do not.

I personally would not use this product. If the OP wants to then by all means but if a sickness arises I better not see a thread on it.

[beardeds4life]

I've been away and I wanted to make a comment on this part in particular.

The difference between the animals in burrows and the animals in our homes is that they are in small containers compared to what they get in the wild. They can move from one burrow to the next. ALSO, they get the SAME air flow on a regular basis. It's not like us, where we go out to the mall, work, dinner. Leaving the house. Our animals do not.

I personally would not use this product. If the OP wants to then by all means but if a sickness arises I better not see a thread on it.

I agree 100%.

Very true; I used to drink raw eggs as a kid (common among Italian American;'s of my parent's generation, so I took to it early) - bad move! I guess chickens were "cleaner" in the old days; I came down with Salmonella right away! Happy new year, Frank

I have seen some of the stuff in chicken feed it is horrible.

True, though the bugs would not be a problem, the idea is to have a living soil...

Obviously but their are pest bugs in them that you don't want in their. I.E. stuff that will wipe out every single plant in the viv overnight.

[Corey209]

Can't you just use normal substrate like coco fiber and get springtails to avoid all this crap that could possibly harm your animals?

[beardeds4life]

YES! And to kickstart it go to the woods and collect a small sample of soil which will have way more microbes in it than this stuff. Their is no point to risk your animals with this crap.

[jarich]

I've been away and I wanted to make a comment on this part in particular.

The difference between the animals in burrows and the animals in our homes is that they are in small containers compared to what they get in the wild. They can move from one burrow to the next. ALSO, they get the SAME air flow on a regular basis. It's not like us, where we go out to the mall, work, dinner. Leaving the house. Our animals do not.

I personally would not use this product. If the OP wants to then by all means but if a sickness arises I better not see a thread on it.

When did you become the thread police, Aaron?

I see you completely blew by the important part of my comment, that all clay contains silica and therefore your argument didnt make much sense. The soil in your backyard contains it, which no one in this thread seems to have a problem with, including yourself. The silica is a non issue.

The only one who came up with anything useful was Frank, when he said that the manure could contain salmonella. However, Im not sure if Frank caught that the manure was composted. Commercially composted manure will reach a temperature that kills salmonella. Its generally composted to get rid of the smell, but has the nice ancillary benefit of also killing off things like Salmonella. And if this is a big worry, make sure sterilize your reptiles too as many of them already have Salmonella. While your at it, never eat chicken again..or eggs. ;)

Corey, by the way, I thought you had a deal going where you weren't going to comment on things you dont know about for sure. This is one of those things, so please stick to that deal.

Either way, Im pretty sure the OP has already made a decision so there seems little point in continuing this thread.

[Corey209]

Corey, by the way, I thought you had a deal going where you weren't going to comment on things you dont know about for sure. This is one of those things, so please stick to that deal.

Either way, Im pretty sure the OP has already made a decision so there seems little point in continuing this thread.

Everything I said was researched. Jobe's has bad reviews for not being a true organic fertilizer and not even being that beneficial. I found two ingredients that proved this wasn't organic and I listed them. You could make a natural bioactive substrate cheaper and easier then using this crap product.

[jarich]

Everything I said was researched. Jobe's has bad reviews for not being a true organic fertilizer and not even being that beneficial. I found two ingredients that proved this wasn't organic and I listed them. You could make a natural bioactive substrate cheaper and easier then using this crap product.

Research is much more than just looking at customer reviews from some random website. You need to know more about the subject before being able to distinguish what is good information from what is junk on the internet. Which is why you didnt understand that what you were saying wasnt true.

Also, your two ingredients arent right. One of them, potassium chloride, is perfectly acceptable in organic products as it is a component of sea water. In scientific terms, it is not an organic compound, which is probably where you got mixed up. It has no carbon atoms in it and so is considered an inorganic compound. However, that has nothing to do with it being considered usable in an organic classification like this, which is a common use of the word and totally different from chemistry. The second, ammonium sulfate, doesnt actually appear to be in this particular product but in this company's other product called "fertilizer spikes".

'Natural bioactive substrate' you make yourself isnt technically organic either, and whether or not this product is technically organic was never the question anyway.

Like I said, until you know what you are talking about, its probably best to stick to your deal.

[Aaron_S]

When did you become the thread police, Aaron?

I see you completely blew by the important part of my comment, that all clay contains silica and therefore your argument didnt make much sense. The soil in your backyard contains it, which no one in this thread seems to have a problem with, including yourself. The silica is a non issue.

The only one who came up with anything useful was Frank, when he said that the manure could contain salmonella. However, Im not sure if Frank caught that the manure was composted. Commercially composted manure will reach a temperature that kills salmonella. Its generally composted to get rid of the smell, but has the nice ancillary benefit of also killing off things like Salmonella. And if this is a big worry, make sure sterilize your reptiles too as many of them already have Salmonella. While your at it, never eat chicken again..or eggs. ;)

Corey, by the way, I thought you had a deal going where you weren't going to comment on things you dont know about for sure. This is one of those things, so please stick to that deal.

Either way, Im pretty sure the OP has already made a decision so there seems little point in continuing this thread.

I'm the thread police since people don't like to take advice...

I read what you said and I refuse to believe "oh everything has it so it's GOT to be okay." I have yet to read a soil MSDS that states what this product does. There could very well be different levels of it between to the two products based on the different places it could come from.

Personally, I would steer clear of it.

[beardeds4life]

I would like to point out to the OP that even if they did use this crap and their animals didn't get sick and die they would still have to seed the cage with isopods and springtails. This stuff contains a few beneficial bacteria that are helpful to plants. It will not give you stuff that will get rid of the poop. It seems to me like you are being lazy. You wont just get a small scoop of chemical free soil and put it in their along with some isopods and springtails.

[Pirarucu]

I would like to point out to the OP that even if they did use this crap and their animals didn't get sick and die they would still have to seed the cage with isopods and springtails. This stuff contains a few beneficial bacteria that are helpful to plants. It will not give you stuff that will get rid of the poop. It seems to me like you are being lazy. You wont just get a small scoop of chemical free soil and put it in their along with some isopods and springtails.Actually, the point is that it has decomposers which break down nutrients so plants can use them. You also don't seem to have much of an idea of the plan here. The whole cage will be filled with (literally) a ton of bioactive chemical free soil from outside, with isopods and springtails.. This stuff would be the small scoop, to help the plants become established. It's going to be more than twenty cubic feet of dirt from outside, with maybe a total of two cups of this stuff mixed in around the plants, to give them a jumpstart..