C.I.T.E.S. Paperwork Debate...

[sSNAKESs.com]

Well over the last week i came across alot of views on C.I.T.E.S. permits so i thought i would ask everyone what they thought about having paperwork for a appendix 1 animal VS not having paperwork for a appendix 1 animal...

My personal opinion is if your not planning on exporting offspring out of the country, the papers mean nothing.

[Corey Woods]

I will only own animals that were brought into the Country legally. I just cannot afford to have a non-legal animal in the collection. Just my personally view though.

Corey

[Darren Hamill]

I feel the same way as Corey does. I only keep legal CITES 1 animals in my collection.

Darren Hamill
http://www.hamillreptiles.com

[sSNAKESs.com]

How about legal CITES 2??? if you only keep legal 1's i suspect you have all the paper work for your CITES 2? I believe that i could go through almost anyones collections and find a illegally owned appendix 1 - 3 animal that you do not have paper work for... If a animal is not to be exported from the country the permit is basically worthless and in my case where people have been stating stuf as to paper work for my dumeril boas, papers or no papers who is the right mind would export a dumeril to the states where you can pick up dumes for $65.00 american... Just thought i would vent and ask why some people are so hypocritical. Nowone in particular just peoples opinions, its like when a man says he likes lesbians but hates gay men.

[Corey Woods]

Jeff,

I have paperwork on all of my appendix 1 and 2 animals. You are welcome to view it when you come down for a tour of the collection.

Corey

[Darren Hamill]

I understand the way you feel Jeff. It used to always frustrate me thinking about the differences between owning an Appendix 2 animal compared to a appendix 1 animal.

In time I learned to appreciate the factors involved and did what I thought was right. I feel that to have the opportunity to own such rare and endangered animals come with a certain responsibility. I feel that if a person wishes to own an appendix 1 animal, you should be responsible to prove that the animal has indeed been legally imported and obtained. CITES 1 animals are the most threatened species and therefore should be properly maintained in captivity.

With the care of CITES 2 animals there are some differences. For the common animals in the pet trade there is no doubt that they have been imported legally. Ball Pythons are imported by the hundreds of thousands every year and common boas by the thousands. Therefore you can be certain that they are legal animals. If you were still concerned about the responsibility of permits then you could simply obtain them from the original importer.

There are also many CITES 2 animals that cannot be obtained that easily because of protection in their country of origin. This is where I feel you again should have a certain amount of responsibility owning these animals. If you know animals are hard to obtain because of one reason or another I would think you would question where they originally came from.

When it comes to exportation and importation of CIUTES 1 or 2 animals these responsibilities are again needed in order for successful transportation of the fauna.

Any ways this is IMO and I feel to be a successful and responsible herper these considerations should have to be considered.

Thanks,
Darren Hamill
http://www.hamillreptiles.com

[sSNAKESs.com]

Good points guys... Well another thing is a have recipets from the people who bred them in canada, so regardless of where they got there dumerils from these specimens were bred in canada, so knowing where they came from is not an issue. Are the reciepts i have from the origional breeders considered to be legal paperwork? or only if they have the origional cites information?? Im not sure how this all works... If someone can fill me in...

[Darren Hamill]

Receipts from the transaction do not work as legal documents but can rather prove that you indeed purchased the boas within Canada and did not illegally import them. That is still by no means a way of verifying them as "Legal".

Although Canadian F & W generally do not practice the inspection or removal of CITES 1 animals that are privately owned by hobbyists, it is still within their powers to do so. There have been instances in the past that has proven it so.

Although I love Dums' and I've been trying to obtain legal animals for three years now I still cannot bring myself to purchase any without legal paperwork. It’s too much of a risk to add such animals to my collection and I feel that supporting the sale of these animals is almost as negative as collecting them from Madagascar. Again, I feel there is a certain amount of responsibility here.

Don't get me wrong, people have their own right to make a choice with what they feel is right and wrong. I just lean against it. That's IMO...

Best of luck Jeff and she is a beautiful female indeed!

Thanks,
Darren Hamill
http://www.hamillreptiles.com

[sSNAKESs.com]

I have to agree to some extend, but i believe the trade of captive bred dumerils wether legally or illegally is a life line for the species, for instance there are probably more dumerils being bred in captivity in the states then there are breeding in madagaskar, and i would have to say probably 10% of those are legally owned dumerils. So if 90% of those animals werent born in captivity, thats 90% less of the species that would be being born at all. I have came to the conclusion after speaking with the fish and wildlife department that it is not illegal to keep a captive bred appendix 1 animal unless you are keeping them in a inhumane way, it is though illegal to export that animal without a permit. So in conclusion my animals are 100% legal, and i dont plan on exporting them anyways. :)

[jason h]

well jeff just to be safe you can hide them over hereo> :devil: :grab:

[sSNAKESs.com]

lol, ill keep that in mind!!! :toilet: