Hognose update

[Ryodraco]

Got a yearling western hognose male a few days ago. Didn't eat yet, but that's not unusual, I've just been spoiled by snakes that want to eat right away, so I'm trying to leave him be now.

I do have one worry though, as said in my "terrarium size preferences" topic I am using an Exo Terra Terrarium. These come with a fake rock background with spaces behind it for wires for temperature probes and such. Stubs (his name for now as his tail is a tiny bit stubbier than I expected) likes to squeeze behind this and just sit there. Guess it makes him feel secure even though he has plenty of aspen to burrow in and in this hiding place he is perfectly visible to me.

However I have noticed him trying to use his rostral scale to "dig" into the background. I guess he wants to enlarge the "burrow." He doesn't seem to make any headway and the material is soft, practically like styrofoam (maybe it is styrofoam), but having seen a number of reptiles with wounds from rubbing their noses on glass I want to avoid it happening here.

So should I remove the fake rock background or let him keep his odd hiding place?

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On another note the heat pad and thermostat is keeping things around 95 degrees on the floor of one side of the terrarium, but should I add a low-wattage light as a supplement/enrichment? I know they don't need special lighting, but it seems that being diurnal many keep them with a basking light of some sort.

It should be clarified now that I am having some trouble keeping things at 95 degrees on top of the substrate. Aspen absorbs heat very well, and if the probe gets moved even a little then it can read a very different temperature. So it keeps things at 95 somewhere but not necessarily anywhere but the floor of the tank. Is this a problem? Having a light may stabilize things I suppose by heating from above and below... However since nightime heat drops are not recommended I guess I need one of those lights that stays on all the time without bothering the animal?

[EmbraceCalamity]

Why not add more legitimate hides and see if you can convince him to use those instead? That seems like the most logical step to help him feel more secure.

As far as nighttime heat, get a CHE, not a light. IMO.

~Maggot

[Lankyrob]

If the top of the aspen is 95f how hot is the bottom of the viv? As this is a burrowing snake i would be concerned about it burrowing down to the floor of the viv and getting burnt.

[rmfsnakes32]

95 seems way to hot I would bump it down a little he may not be burrowing because its to hot. If he does burrow down towards the heat pad I am guessing it is closer to 100 and that will burn him.

[Ryodraco]

If the top of the aspen is 95f how hot is the bottom of the viv? As this is a burrowing snake i would be concerned about it burrowing down to the floor of the viv and getting burnt.
Indeed, and I try to measure slightly above the bottom of the aspen, but as I said the temperature fluctuates a lot depending on where the probe is.

95 seems way to hot I would bump it down a little he may not be burrowing because its to hot. If he does burrow down towards the heat pad I am guessing it is closer to 100 and that will burn him.
I'm trying to follow Gregg M's mini-caresheet here: http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/heterodon/95474-hognose-care-sheet.html#post774379 and he's always maintained they need high temperatures, albeit said caresheet doesn't specify if having it be 95 at the bottom of the substrate is enough.

But you are right, the temperature at the bottom gets too high if I try to keep the temperature high above the aspen.

Why not add more legitimate hides and see if you can convince him to use those instead? That seems like the most logical step to help him feel more secure.

As far as nighttime heat, get a CHE, not a light. IMO.

~Maggot
He has a couple of hides (a dry and moist hide) and a thick piece of grapevine to hide under, but it seems he doesn't like them much.

From what I had read here special nightime heat was not necessary.

On another note, he is now making headway digging into the background. At this rate I'll have to remove it as he is destroying it.

[EmbraceCalamity]

He has a couple of hides (a dry and moist hide) and a thick piece of grapevine to hide under, but it seems he doesn't like them much.

From what I had read here special nightime heat was not necessary.

On another note, he is now making headway digging into the background. At this rate I'll have to remove it as he is destroying it.So only one dry hide and some vine? I was talking about a bunch of hides.

~Maggot

[Ryodraco]

So only one dry hide and some vine? I was talking about a bunch of hides.

~Maggot
It doesn't look like there would be room for a "bunch" of hides in a terrarium 24 by 18 inches (those are the official measurements, its actually a few inches smaller in both dimensions inside it), though perhaps I am misunderstanding something. It always surprises me how quickly space in a terrarium gets used up once one starts decorating. The grapevine is also quite large and thick, I thought it would help him choose a good basking place if I got a light for him. I'll see about getting pictures of the set-up if that will help.

Albeit I have had trouble finding suitable hides. Most ones at stores have openings that are too large to promote security and nobody in my area seems to sell those coconut half hides that some recommend for snakes. Yes I can make my own hides if need be but I'd like them to look nice if possible.

Further if I recall right Gregg M has stated in the past that many hognoses won't even use hides, preferring to burrow if they need security.

[Gregg M]

Why not add more legitimate hides and see if you can convince him to use those instead? That seems like the most logical step to help him feel more secure.

As far as nighttime heat, get a CHE, not a light. IMO.

~Maggot

Trying to convince a reptile to do something is really not very logical. They do what comes naturally. Hognose snakes are a burrowing species and they will want to burrow to feel secure. You can put 10 hides in there. If there is a substrate they can burrow in, that is where they will go. They will not seek a hide box unless you have given them no other choice by keeping them on paper towels or news paper.

Ryodraco,
Even though I mostly use racks for my hog collection, I keep a couple of hog pairs in natural type set ups because I still love setting up cool cages. LOL.
In my natural set ups, I do not use under tank heaters because I use deep sand/soil mixes. I use basking lights. and I make sure the surface temperatures under the lights are 95 degrees or a tad bit higher. I do not use nor would I ever recommend Ceramic heaters. They super heat the air and dry it out too much. The UTH is fine though if you do not want to change it. It may be a couple of degrees hotter under the surface but will still be ok. Your snake will not burn itself. As long as your cage offers a good gradient, I see no reason to change anything at this point.

[EmbraceCalamity]

Trying to convince a reptile to do something is really not very logical. They do what comes naturally. Hognose snakes are a burrowing species and they will want to burrow to feel secure. You can put 10 hides in there. If there is a substrate they can burrow in, that is where they will go. They will not seek a hide box unless you have given them no other choice by keeping them on paper towels or news paper.I wasn't using the term "convince" literally. I meant give it something more appealing to hide in/under than the background.

But isn't this snake trying to hide?

~Maggot

[StudentoReptile]

I agree with Gregg. In the few occasions, I kept western hogs, they never used hides. Never. Even if put on paper towels, they would hide under the paper, and avoid logs and caves.

[EmbraceCalamity]

I agree with Gregg. In the few occasions, I kept western hogs, they never used hides. Never. Even if put on paper towels, they would hide under the paper, and avoid logs and caves.I don't doubt that, but isn't this snake hiding instead of burrowing under the aspen substrate? That's what I'm not getting.

~Maggot

[StudentoReptile]

perhaps I missed it, but I couldn't see where the OP specified what type of substrate they were using. If its flat material like paper, then that would explain the behavior. I have many snakes (besides hogs) opt for getting behind that foam Exoterra background in lieu of other hides made available to them. Its really snug back there, which is what they want. Of course, it makes access to the snake difficult so I always remove the blasted things from day 1.

[EmbraceCalamity]

perhaps I missed it, but I couldn't see where the OP specified what type of substrate they were using. If its flat material like paper, then that would explain the behavior. I have many snakes (besides hogs) opt for getting behind that foam Exoterra background in lieu of other hides made available to them. Its really snug back there, which is what they want. Of course, it makes access to the snake difficult so I always remove the blasted things from day 1.Guess it makes him feel secure even though he has plenty of aspen to burrow in and in this hiding place he is perfectly visible to me.But you guys said they won't hide as long as they have something to burrow under, hence my confusion.

~Maggot

[Gregg M]

I wasn't using the term "convince" literally. I meant give it something more appealing to hide in/under than the background.

But isn't this snake trying to hide?

~Maggot

I don't doubt that, but isn't this snake hiding instead of burrowing under the aspen substrate? That's what I'm not getting.

~Maggot

But you guys said they won't hide as long as they have something to burrow under, hence my confusion.

~Maggot

Maggot,
I like you but sometimes you confuse the hell out of me. LOL.

My most educated guess is that the hognose is trying to burrow into or under the background. It just really wants in for some reason...

Why? Who knows...

It may be trying to increase its living space, could be looking for food, maybe it is seaking a different gradient, or maybe it is just curious.

I am also guessing that once it realizes it can not get into the fake rock wall, it retreats to the aspen.

The point is, normal hides are just not as secure to burrowers as being surrounded by a substrate.

[EmbraceCalamity]

Maggot,
I like you but sometimes you confuse the hell out of me. LOL.

My most educated guess is that the hognose is trying to burrow into or under the background. It just really wants in for some reason...

Why? Who knows...

It may be trying to increase its living space, could be looking for food, maybe it is seaking a different gradient, or maybe it is just curious.

I am also guessing that once it realizes it can not get into the fake rock wall, it retreats to the aspen.

The point is, normal hides are just not as secure to burrowers as being surrounded by a substrate.How is that confusing? You said these guys burrow, not hide. This snake is hiding, not burrowing.

~Maggot

[Gregg M]

How is that confusing? You said these guys burrow, not hide. This snake is hiding, not burrowing.

~Maggot

That sentence is exactly what is confusing about you.
The reason for them to burrow is to hide, but it also helps them to thermoregulate and to retain moisture.

Besides all that, attempting to burrow into a fake background does not constitute "hiding".

[EmbraceCalamity]

That sentence is exactly what is confusing about you.
The reason for them to burrow is to hide, but it also helps them to thermoregulate and to retain moisture.

Besides all that, attempting to burrow into a fake background does not constitute "hiding".The OP states that his concern is because the snake likes to squeeze behind it. Later he says that it's trying to "burrow" into it (though I'm not sure a snake can really burrow into a solid object), but you still stated that these snakes won't hide if they can burrow under something. Despite that, this snake was refusing to burrow under his substrate and was hiding behind the wall. My simple point is that this snake's behaviour is contradicting your original statement - that they will burrow under substrate if it's provided. It was provided in this instance, and that's not what the snake has been doing.

~Maggot

[Gregg M]

but you still stated that these snakes won't hide if they can burrow under something.

Maybe you should re-read what I wrote before you quote me. I never said they will not hide. I said was..... You can put 10 hides in there. If there is a substrate they can burrow in, that is where they will go. They will not seek a hide box unless you have given them no other choice by keeping them on paper towels or news paper.


My simple point is that this snake's behaviour is contradicting your original statement - that they will burrow under substrate if it's provided. It was provided in this instance, and that's not what the snake has been doing.
So you are not actually confused. You are just being a wiseass. The OP never said the snake was not burrowing. The OP stated that it was using its rostral scale in an attempt to burrow into the fake rock wall.

Do you keep hognose snakes by any chance?

[Ryodraco]

Sorry if I ended up confusing anyone. He is burrowing, he just likes to squeeze behind the background too.

Anyway I have removed the background as I stated before he was making a mess of it and would probably destroy it eventually. I deepened the aspen too and now he is resting with all but his head under it. Once I get a static-cling background he should feel even more secure.

If I were to theorize then being in a new place made him more nervous and he went to extra lengths to feel safe.

On another note, what about the moist hide? I have one of thsoe Exo Terra snake hides you put moss in in there. Gregg M if they usually don't use hides then will they still use a moist hide when they need it? I presume so as you recommend humid hides in the caresheet.

[Gregg M]

On another note, what about the moist hide? I have one of thsoe Exo Terra snake hides you put moss in in there. Gregg M if they usually don't use hides then will they still use a moist hide when they need it? I presume so as you recommend humid hides in the caresheet.

Yes, they will use it provided it is filled to the brim with a humid substrate they can burrow in. I use coco fiber in my humid hides/lay boxes. Some people use spagnum moss. Both are acceptable substrates for the application.

[EmbraceCalamity]

Yes, they will use it provided it is filled to the brim with a humid substrate they can burrow in. I use coco fiber in my humid hides/lay boxes. Some people use spagnum moss. Both are acceptable substrates for the application.I personally like coco fiber. I've heard from people that have used both that it holds moisture better than moss, though I can't personally attest to it.Maybe you should re-read what I wrote before you quote me. I never said they will not hide. I said was.....


So you are not actually confused. You are just being a wiseass. The OP never said the snake was not burrowing. The OP stated that it was using its rostral scale in an attempt to burrow into the fake rock wall.

Do you keep hognose snakes by any chance?If I were being a wiseass, I would admit to it. But I'm not. I'm asking a genuine question. You said they won't seek a hide unless there's no burrowing option, but this one was hiding behind the background, which I wouldn't personally consider the same as burrowing under something.

~Maggot

[Ryodraco]

I personally like coco fiber. I've heard from people that have used both that it holds moisture better than moss, though I can't personally attest to it.If I were being a wiseass, I would admit to it. But I'm not. I'm asking a genuine question. You said they won't seek a hide unless there's no burrowing option, but this one was hiding behind the background, which I wouldn't personally consider the same as burrowing under something.

~Maggot
He had to burrow to get to the area behind the background. To him it may have seemed like he had found some underground chamber to excavate.

[EmbraceCalamity]

He had to burrow to get to the area behind the background. To him it may have seemed like he had found some underground chamber to excavate.So he was burrowed under something? I got the impression he was just behind the thing 'cause you said he was perfectly visible. I guess I'm just not understanding what you're saying it was doing. It's not a big deal as long as it's doing well; I was just curious about the whole thing.

~Maggot

[Gregg M]

I personally like coco fiber. I've heard from people that have used both that it holds moisture better than moss, though I can't personally attest to it.

I used both. You are correct. The coco fiber seems to do a better job all around.

If I were being a wiseass, I would admit to it. But I'm not. I'm asking a genuine question. You said they won't seek a hide unless there's no burrowing option, but this one was hiding behind the background, which I wouldn't personally consider the same as burrowing under something.


Well it just seemed that way. Sorry for me calling you a wiseass then.

Anyway, as Ryodraco just explained, the snake actually had to burrow in order to get behind the background. So maybe that answers some questions you may have.

[EmbraceCalamity]

Well it just seemed that way. Sorry for me calling you a wiseass then.It's pretty obvious when I'm being a wiseass. :)
Anyway, as Ryodraco just explained, the snake actually had to burrow in order to get behind the background. So maybe that answers some questions you may have.I think you and I consider "burrowing" to be two different things. I wouldn't mind having one of these snakes someday though.

~Maggot

[StudentoReptile]

For the record, I never said that no hognose would NEVER use a hide. I only gave what my experience was. ;)

Personally, I think you were deliberately being a bit obtuse as well. But oh well...

[EmbraceCalamity]

For the record, I never said that no hognose would NEVER use a hide. I only gave what my experience was. ;)

Personally, I think you were deliberately being a bit obtuse as well. But oh well...Well I already stated that I wasn't and that I was genuinely curious, but whatever. Apparently I'm just a diabolical, obtuse *** and then covering it up by saying I'm just curious. Sure, because that's definitely something I'd do. I'm also an alien who can read your thoughts. :)

~Maggot

[StudentoReptile]

Well I already stated that I wasn't and that I was genuinely curious, but whatever. Apparently I'm just a diabolical, obtuse *** and then covering it up by saying I'm just curious. Sure, because that's definitely something I'd do. I'm also an alien who can read your thoughts. :)

~Maggot

At least you have the courage to own up to it. :p

[EmbraceCalamity]

At least you have the courage to own up to it. :pI have no desire to lie to anyone here about anything. If I'm gonna be an ***, I'll be obvious about it and gladly admit to it. If I'm gonna be an alien who reads thoughts, I'll gladly admit that too. Y'all aren't worth lying to. ;)

~Maggot

[Ryodraco]

So he was burrowed under something? I got the impression he was just behind the thing 'cause you said he was perfectly visible. I guess I'm just not understanding what you're saying it was doing. It's not a big deal as long as it's doing well; I was just curious about the whole thing.

~Maggot
Maybe I can clarify some more, the background has an opening on the bottom for wires and such to go through and this opening leads to a space behind the background for those same wires to go through (the wires enter from holes in the rear of the terrarium top, the idea of the background is partly to hide the wires from view when looking at the front of the terrarium).

The aforementioned opening is at the bottom of the background so to get to it Stubs had to dig into the aspen and locate the opening. From there he tunneled in behind the background and up into the space behind the background, where I could easily see him from the rear of the terrarium. He then began to remodel the space with his rostral scale.:)

[EmbraceCalamity]

Maybe I can clarify some more, the background has an opening on the bottom for wires and such to go through and this opening leads to a space behind the background for those same wires to go through (the wires enter from holes in the rear of the terrarium top, the idea of the background is partly to hide the wires from view when looking at the front of the terrarium).

The aforementioned opening is at the bottom of the background so to get to it Stubs had to dig into the aspen and locate the opening. From there he tunneled in behind the background and up into the space behind the background, where I could easily see him from the rear of the terrarium. He then began to remodel the space with his rostral scale.:)It's not your fault or anything. I have serious difficulty understanding things I can't see. I'm 100% visual. Been an issue all my life. :)

~Maggot