hybridizing / morphs & melanin

[BryanB]

other than some luck and a lot of time how dose one decide what to breed together to get different hybrids and morphs. Or could some one explain to me how a morph pops up?

[StudentoReptile]

Hybrid = the breeding of two different species together. Ex: ball python x burmese python = burmball

Intergrade = the breeding of two different subspecies (or localities) together. Ex: a speckled kingsnake to a eastern kingsnake (they are both Lampropeltis getula sp.)

With morphs, you need a little understanding of genetics, how different traits work, etc. I'll let someone who understands that better explain.

[BryanB]

I get what hybridizing is but why mix specific snakes together do most people just look for a pretty snake nobody else has? I see it as undoing evolution what if it brings out bad traits? Example Africanized bees

[BryanB]

Oh and I am not looking for an argument just info on something I know very little about

[Gregg M]

I get what hybridizing is but why mix specific snakes together do most people just look for a pretty snake nobody else has? I see it as undoing evolution what if it brings out bad traits? Example Africanized bees

Firstly, any of our captive breeding stock is biologically "dead". They are not part of the evolutionary chain and they are not part of nature anymore. Once you pair animals in captivity, there is no natural selection even if you own 2 snakes from the same locality. It is human selection. Evolution of a species can not be a factor when we are talking about captive animals that are not part of the "natural" world.

As far as hybridization undoing evolution goes, nothing can be further from the truth. Hybridization in the wild happens often and is actually a very big part of evolution.

Look up speciation through hybridization. You will find numerous links and PDF files of actual scientific data and not opinions based on our human "morals"...

As far as Africanized honey bees go, is their overly agressive behavior a bad trait? Well it is for the human or animal that stumbles too close to their hive, but for the bee species, it is a trait that keeps their hive protected. Why do you think the species or hybrid is so successful? It certainly is not a bad trait when it comes to the survival of the species. And that is what evolution is all about. Adopting traits that increase the chances of a species success and survival in the wild. If anything, breeding morphs propagates many more bad traits than hybridization ever could.

Morphs are created when defective genetics are propagated. It can happen in the wild and that is where most morphs originate. Very few just "pop up" in collections. Many of our base morphs were wild caught animals. Many made it to adulthood in the wild. These defective genes are in wild populations mostley in the form of heterozygous animals that carry the gene but do not show it. Usually the visual morphs stray too far from the natural surroundings and the visual morph animals are picked off. That is unless we are talking about gene morphs like bells phase lace monitors. The bells phase lives along side normal lace monitors in the wild. Some gene mutations work out well in the wild. Sometimes even better. This may be how some subspecies come about but it is a very rare occurance.

[BryanB]

Ok I see what you are saying but to expand on the human side of things hypothetically speeking if you want a purple corn snake you can't take a red one and a blue one and breed them you must find the purple gene and that is where I get lost, how do you do that?

[infernalis]

Ok I see what you are saying but to expand on the human side of things hypothetically speeking if you want a purple corn snake you can't take a red one and a blue one and breed them you must find the purple gene and that is where I get lost, how do you do that?

The genetic defects we are talking about almost always describe a lack of a certain colour.

In other words, remove the yellow pigment from a green snake, you should see blue, remove the blue pigment you see a visual yellow.

The one exception is Melanistic, melanistic means excessive melanin, or black pigment.

A "snow" lacks all pigment.

Since a red snake is usually a brown snake missing the yellow and blue pigments, simply breeding a blue snake to a red snake will not produce a purple snake.

Melanins compose a class of compounds that serve predominantly as a pigment. These pigments are derivatives of the amino acid tyrosine. There are at least three types of naturally occurring melanins: eumelanin, pheomelanin and neuromelanin. Both the chemical composition and the physical properties differ for the various types of melanin, suggesting that their chemical and biological responses may behave differently when exposed to light.

Although melanins are ubiquitous in humankind, our understanding of their chemistry is surprisingly limited. Melanin pigments have a complex natural structure that has defied detailed analysis. Once separated from living tissue, they form an amorphous mass and lose their inherent structure, making them very difficult to analyze.

[infernalis]

Here is a page from a friend who is a genetics specialist by trade, he works in a genetics lab (aids research) 40 hours a week, so I trust what he says...

Garter Snake Morph - Genetics 101 (http://gartersnakemorph.com/Snake-Genetics.php)

[Aaron_S]

Firstly, any of our captive breeding stock is biologically "dead". They are not part of the evolutionary chain and they are not part of nature anymore. Once you pair animals in captivity, there is no natural selection even if you own 2 snakes from the same locality. It is human selection. Evolution of a species can not be a factor when we are talking about captive animals that are not part of the "natural" world.

As far as hybridization undoing evolution goes, nothing can be further from the truth. Hybridization in the wild happens often and is actually a very big part of evolution.

Look up speciation through hybridization. You will find numerous links and PDF files of actual scientific data and not opinions based on our human "morals"...

As far as Africanized honey bees go, is their overly agressive behavior a bad trait? Well it is for the human or animal that stumbles too close to their hive, but for the bee species, it is a trait that keeps their hive protected. Why do you think the species or hybrid is so successful? It certainly is not a bad trait when it comes to the survival of the species. And that is what evolution is all about. Adopting traits that increase the chances of a species success and survival in the wild. If anything, breeding morphs propagates many more bad traits than hybridization ever could.

Morphs are created when defective genetics are propagated. It can happen in the wild and that is where most morphs originate. Very few just "pop up" in collections. Many of our base morphs were wild caught animals. Many made it to adulthood in the wild. These defective genes are in wild populations mostley in the form of heterozygous animals that carry the gene but do not show it. Usually the visual morphs stray too far from the natural surroundings and the visual morph animals are picked off. That is unless we are talking about gene morphs like bells phase lace monitors. The bells phase lives along side normal lace monitors in the wild. Some gene mutations work out well in the wild. Sometimes even better. This may be how some subspecies come about but it is a very rare occurance.

Gregg, you make really good points in regards to everything on topic.

The only part I have with hybrids that you didn't mention, is that in captivity even though they are biological "dead" I believe, with my "human morals" it's our duty to keep stuff "clean".

We all like our different species and prefer to work with various ones so I don't see why we need to muddle up a lot of them. Some moreso than others. I find it extremely hard to believe that there are pure lines of carpet pythons still out there, for example. Which is sad. Since over here we can't get anymore wild ones.

[Gregg M]

Gregg, you make really good points in regards to everything on topic.

The only part I have with hybrids that you didn't mention, is that in captivity even though they are biological "dead" I believe, with my "human morals" it's our duty to keep stuff "clean".

We all like our different species and prefer to work with various ones so I don't see why we need to muddle up a lot of them. Some moreso than others. I find it extremely hard to believe that there are pure lines of carpet pythons still out there, for example. Which is sad. Since over here we can't get anymore wild ones.

Aaron, I am not an advocate of hybrids. Most of them I can do without to be honest. I agree with what you are saying.

However, there are some really cool looking hybrids that even I would like to produce. LOL.

I also did produce gaboon/rhino viper hybrids a few years back and they were awesome. I even had a wild caught adult male hybrid and also had some stunning F2 hybrids as well.

Like I said, I personally think you are right in your thinking. We just can not expect everyone to feel the same and I can see why many people like hybrids.

There is just something very interesting about two separate species being bred together and being able to produce healthy, viable offspring who can also produce healthy, viable offspring. Kinda make you realize how closely related these species really are and how it turns taxonomy over on its head.

[BryanB]

That was a good read and answered most of my ponderings. thank you

[Aaron_S]

Aaron, I am not an advocate of hybrids. Most of them I can do without to be honest. I agree with what you are saying.

However, there are some really cool looking hybrids that even I would like to produce. LOL.

I also did produce gaboon/rhino viper hybrids a few years back and they were awesome. I even had a wild caught adult male hybrid and also had some stunning F2 hybrids as well.

Like I said, I personally think you are right in your thinking. We just can not expect everyone to feel the same and I can see why many people like hybrids.

There is just something very interesting about two separate species being bred together and being able to produce healthy, viable offspring who can also produce healthy, viable offspring. Kinda make you realize how closely related these species really are and how it turns taxonomy over on its head.

Gregg,

I get what you're saying and I agree. There are a few really cool looking hybrids out there. Then there's some I totally don't agree with because they wouldn't really happen ever in the wild. The burmball? Or the the woma x ball. Come on now.

Like you said, most people won't always agree so I'll stick to me just not supporting those that do it.

I am fine with the gabby/rhino stuff. It's a natural intergrade.

Can you post some pics up? I'd like to see the difference between the gabby, rhino and the cross.

[millertime89]

Morals are completely subjective, I don't have a problem with hybrids as long as the breeder/owner/seller is completely honest with what they have. I think the beauty of hybrids when quality animals are used, I've seen some absolutely stunning hybrids, and I've seen the opposite as well. This is a very divisive topic and usually results in arguments on most forums.

[infernalis]

There is just something very interesting about two separate species being bred together and being able to produce healthy, viable offspring who can also produce healthy, viable offspring. Kinda make you realize how closely related these species really are and how it turns taxonomy over on its head.

Having a member here with a Gouldii/Pantopes hybrid has my mind reeling about others.

Any possibility that if a larger male Exanthematicus wandered up on an ovulating smallish lady Albig, would it work??

[Snakeman8]

half of the whiptail lizards in the U.S were made through hybridizing, nine species to be exact.
my favorite hybrids are the burmball, the wall, and the gabon x rhino,
the thought of mixing species is fascinating to me, i acuacually look forward to future hybrids, but thats my opinon.
now the beaded lizard gila monster hybrid makes no sense nor do i desire to have one.

[bushsnake]

The genetic defects we are talking about almost always describe a lack of a certain colour.

In other words, remove the yellow pigment from a green snake, you should see blue, remove the blue pigment you see a visual yellow.

The one exception is Melanistic, melanistic means excessive melanin, or black pigment.

A "snow" lacks all pigment.

Since a red snake is usually a brown snake missing the yellow and blue pigments, simply breeding a blue snake to a red snake will not produce a purple snake.
remove blue?
a red snake is a brown snake missing yellow?
Where did you learn this crap Scott Felzer and Jeff Benfer?
JUST MORE BAD INFORMATION!!!!!!!!!!

[infernalis]

remove blue?
a red snake is a brown snake missing yellow?
Where did you learn this crap Scott Felzer and Jeff Benfer?
JUST MORE BAD INFORMATION!!!!!!!!!!


So present your version Joe. would be delighted to see it.

[Corey209]

I personally would only breed a hybrid if the outcome had a huge difference in pattern or color from the original parents. Some beautiful examples of hybrids are the GTP x Carpet Python and the ETB x ATB.

[bushsnake]

So present your version Joe. would be delighted to see it.
sorry for my little rant but ive had enough

[shaunyboy]

Gregg, you make really good points in regards to everything on topic.

The only part I have with hybrids that you didn't mention, is that in captivity even though they are biological "dead" I believe, with my "human morals" it's our duty to keep stuff "clean".

We all like our different species and prefer to work with various ones so I don't see why we need to muddle up a lot of them. Some moreso than others. I find it extremely hard to believe that there are pure lines of carpet pythons still out there, for example. Which is sad. Since over here we can't get anymore wild ones.

although i agree its hard to find pure carpets Aaron...

there are still some pure morelia out there,but NOT many mate

some still get through to Europe and the USA...

for example Terry Philps of the reptile garden (if i'm remembering correctly,am i Gregg ? ) has Morelia Carinata - the Rough Scaled Python,which he successfully bred 2 years ago

in 2012 a few breeders in Europe got some roughies,from the German Government,who caught them being smuggled into the Country

i believe there are still a lot of pure Diamond Pythons out there,there are well documented Diamonds in the USA,bronx zoo lines,gary valle lines,and more

as far as what a traditional Diamond should look like,imo a mongeral Diamond is very easy to spot

but for the most part it is impossible to proove pure lines without lineage

re jungles
what passes for a good looking traditional jungle,here in the UK and Europe,looks not much like most of the Australian Jungles

cheers shaun

[Snakeman8]

theres a pure baby coastal at a petstore not far from here, i see pure carpets all time... but by pure luck.
pardon my spelling

[beardeds4life]

how do you know if they are pure? Do the owners/petshops show you lineages? I would bet money that they have no idea.

[shaunyboy]

remove blue?
a red snake is a brown snake missing yellow?
Where did you learn this crap Scott Felzer and Jeff Benfer?
JUST MORE BAD INFORMATION!!!!!!!!!!

So present your version Joe. would be delighted to see it.

sorry for my little rant but ive had enough

imo you can't call someone out for giving bad info,then when challenged to proove what your saying..

you then run away

epic fail mate,no ?

cheers shaun

[Gregg M]

remove blue?
a red snake is a brown snake missing yellow?
Where did you learn this crap Scott Felzer and Jeff Benfer?
JUST MORE BAD INFORMATION!!!!!!!!!!

I am sure Wayne was being hypothetical for the most part. It really all depends on how the gene works. Wether ii is co-dom, incomplete dom, recessive, or polygenic.

As far along as the reptile hobby is in morphs, I thin there is still a huge lack of understanding on how the genes work and there is even mislabling going on often.

What we consider co-dom in the reptile world is not always so. Sometimes it is actually incomplete donimance.

Many animals that are labled anerythristic are actually axanthics. Recessive mutations that have "het markers" are not actually recessive.

There are so many actual mistakes being made when it comes to morphs in this hobby, it is really pointless to have a rant over a hypothetical statement. Also, Wayne asked for your knowledge on the subject and you did not offer any. If you want to make a point, at least back it up with something substancial.

how do you know if they are pure? Do the owners/petshops show you lineages? I would bet money that they have no idea.

I agree with what you are getting at for the most part. However, pure lines of carpets are getting easier and esier to find these days depending on who you go to.

However, with carpets, even in the wild there are numerous "mutts". There are animals between ranges that even the experts can not tell what sub they are. This is usually how and why new subspecies get described. The "mutt" carpets you find on the market are not hybrids. They are locality intergrades that can and do occure in their natural range.

[Snakeman8]

i get info to see if their pure, i asked the owner and he said yeah and if im interested i said no just curious.
if my spelling is bad then its because of the stupid auto correct on my tab.

[bushsnake]

[QUOTE=Gregg M;802005]I am sure Wayne was being hypothetical for the most part. It really all depends on how the gene works. Wether ii is co-dom, incomplete dom, recessive, or polygenic.

As far along as the reptile hobby is in morphs, I thin there is still a huge lack of understanding on how the genes work and there is even mislabling going on often.

What we consider co-dom in the reptile world is not always so. Sometimes it is actually incomplete donimance.

Many animals that are labled anerythristic are actually axanthics. Recessive mutations that have "het markers" are not actually recessive.

There are so many actual mistakes being made when it comes to morphs in this hobby, it is really pointless to have a rant over a hypothetical statement. Also, Wayne asked for your knowledge on the subject and you did not offer any. If you want to make a point, at least back it up with something substancial.]
ive given my knowledge on the subject a ton of times, Wayne knows that and i am very knowledgable on the subject i love talking about that stuff but Wayne is not interested in learning about that cuz thats what he told me anyways i did over react thats why i said sorry but if you have no knowledge on the subject then you should keep your mouth shut

[Aaron_S]

[QUOTE=Gregg M;802005]I am sure Wayne was being hypothetical for the most part. It really all depends on how the gene works. Wether ii is co-dom, incomplete dom, recessive, or polygenic.

As far along as the reptile hobby is in morphs, I thin there is still a huge lack of understanding on how the genes work and there is even mislabling going on often.

What we consider co-dom in the reptile world is not always so. Sometimes it is actually incomplete donimance.

Many animals that are labled anerythristic are actually axanthics. Recessive mutations that have "het markers" are not actually recessive.

There are so many actual mistakes being made when it comes to morphs in this hobby, it is really pointless to have a rant over a hypothetical statement. Also, Wayne asked for your knowledge on the subject and you did not offer any. If you want to make a point, at least back it up with something substancial.]
ive given my knowledge on the subject a ton of times, Wayne knows that and i am very knowledgable on the subject i love talking about that stuff but Wayne is not interested in learning about that cuz thats what he told me anyways i did over react thats why i said sorry but if you have no knowledge on the subject then you should keep your mouth shut

Sure I agree that if you don't know what you're talking about then not to speak as if you know. Ask questions yes, but not act like the expert.

The problem I have with YOU at this point is you aren't willing to give the information here publicly when asked so the REST of us may learn something if they don't know then you shouldn't have said anything in the first place. If you're going to correct someone, you should give ALL the information for others to learn from as well.