2 corns in one viv?

[Snakewitch]

My corn Charlie is such a character and a joy to have an now I'm thinking about getting a second one. If I'd do, could it be housed in the same viv with Charlie?

[StudentoReptile]

I wouldn't. I have personally seen corn snakes eat each other on more than one occasion.

[Snakewitch]

Ohhh, that's tragic. So no play buddies for Charlie then, got it. Too bad, I thought he would like a friend :)

[Lankyrob]

Snakes arent social creatures (with a couple of exceptions) separate enclosures are the way to go :)

[LunasKiss]

I currently have two corns together and I haven't had any issues with them; however, they are the same age/size and feed them separately. However I have little experience with snakes so... it is possible but it may not be the best.

[StudentoReptile]

I currently have two corns together and I haven't had any issues with them; however, they are the same age/size and feed them separately. However I have little experience with snakes so... it is possible but it may not be the best.

Ironically, most of the cases of snake cannibalism in captivity (that I am aware of anyway) occur involve animals of similar size, because the keeper mistakenly assumed that it couldn't happen for that reason. I assure they can eat a snake their own size. I have seen it with corn snakes, bull snakes, king snakes, and know of cases involving baby ball pythons eating cage mates.

[Snakewitch]

I can't imagine it with Charlie but I'll take your word for it. My boa, on the other hand, for sure. Although I do recall that Charlie's did exhibit a weird behaviour when we first had him. He rattled his tail just like a rattler snake. It was quite unexpected so I suspect it's possible after all.

[Kavyrie]

Snakes don't like friends. They rattle their tail when they feel threatened, once he learned that you weren't going to eat him he stopped.

[LunasKiss]

Ironically, most of the cases of snake cannibalism in captivity (that I am aware of anyway) occur involve animals of similar size, because the keeper mistakenly assumed that it couldn't happen for that reason. I assure they can eat a snake their own size. I have seen it with corn snakes, bull snakes, king snakes, and know of cases involving baby ball pythons eating cage mates.

Thank you for the advice, I had no idea prior to today that snakes would eat one another. I posted in the newcomer's forum and heard the same thing there. I will separate them soon to prevent either of them being harmed. I'm glad I joined this site!

[millertime89]

Just saw a picture from a King Cobra breeder that tossed a live baby corn in for a baby King's dinner, guess which got eaten? Luckily the corn regurged the king before any real damage was done and the corn has become a pet. So no, I wouldn't co-hab corns, or any snake for that matter except for breeding or the first week after birth/hatching.

[Aaron_S]

Just saw a picture from a King Cobra breeder that tossed a live baby corn in for a baby King's dinner, guess which got eaten? Luckily the corn regurged the king before any real damage was done and the corn has become a pet. So no, I wouldn't co-hab corns, or any snake for that matter except for breeding or the first week after birth/hatching.

Possible to get a link?

[millertime89]

Already looking for it

[millertime89]

ask and receive. Look for Tom's posts on the photo, he explains what happened.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=480229898674486&set=a.480229858674490.111528.217032634994215&type=1&theater

[Wyldrose]

Possible to get a link?

I seen it on another forum can't find the forum but here is the Facebook post
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=480229898674486&set=a.480229858674490.111528.217032634994215&type=1&theater

[millertime89]

I seen it on another forum can't find the forum but here is the Facebook post
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=480229898674486&set=a.480229858674490.111528.217032634994215&type=1&theater

its also on the main uk forum, at least that's the one I know of.

[Wyldrose]

I am sure it was on Reptiles Canada but I searched and can't find it. I wonder if it was removed because the picture is copyright?

[StudentoReptile]

I saw that photo as well. That corn had balls!

[Lankyrob]

I cohabbed corns for about six weeks or so, they were fine; until the day they werent!! Luckily i happened to be present when one suddenly went after the other, literally chasing it round the viv un til i separated them.

I will NEVER cohab snakes again :)

[Snakewitch]

I'm glad I asked the question and thanks for the advice all. The last thing I want to do is put my littles ones in danger.

[poison123]

i wonder if that guy kept that corn for memories. i would lol.

[Kettennatter]

It's a roll of the dice. You may be just fine, or you may end up (as other posters stated) with one fat snake. I personally have kept corn snakes in the same enclosure temporarily, but never permanently.

[millertime89]

i wonder if that guy kept that corn for memories. i would lol.

He did, it has become a pet now because its a little BA.

[Falconeer999]

Recently saw an ad on Craigslist in my area of a guy keeping a red tail and a ball in the same cage. That sounded like a recipe for disaster.

[StudentoReptile]

Recently saw an ad on Craigslist in my area of a guy keeping a red tail and a ball in the same cage. That sounded like a recipe for disaster.

It is. I have come across more than one instance of a BC eating a ball python...after "years" of being friends.

[Aleks]

Rules for all reptile... one animal one vivarium! It reduce stress... disease and other problems cause by stress (ex : stop eating).... in the wild there isn’t one reptile that will live whit another except when it’s time to breed! And even when breeding at home... u will not let both together for a long period

[KORBIN5895]

Rules for all reptile... one animal one vivarium! It reduce stress... disease and other problems cause by stress (ex : stop eating).... in the wild there isn’t one reptile that will live whit another except when it’s time to breed! And even when breeding at home... u will not let both together for a long period

Sorry but this isn't completely true. You are making a blanket statement that is incorrect.

[Aleks]

hum ok then find me one snake that cohabits in nature!

And if u tell me that they are all staying close because they love each other ... that not why.. There looking for heat! And all what I said does happen… doesn’t mean it always happen… but are u ready to take the chance… me as a breeder I dont! And will never tell a buyer to do so…

[KORBIN5895]

It is. I have come across more than one instance of a BC eating a ball python...after "years" of being friends.

Now this is causing me some consternation. You usually know your stuff but this is the first time I have ever heard of a boa eating another snake, at least from a credible source. Do you have anything I can read on this?

[KORBIN5895]

hum ok then find me one snake that cohabits in nature!

Garters.....

[Aleks]

not corns.. not balls... not gtps... not kingsnakes

i know this is a split thinking in the OB... and u can thinks what u whant... but i dont know alote of big breeders that doesing have one tub for eatch snakes...

VMS...SMR...Perfect Predators....BHB....

[KORBIN5895]

not corns.. not balls... not gtps... not kingsnakes

You asked for a snake now man up and get over yourself.

Also having two snakes in one viv doesn't create disease. Housing two snakes together can be successfully done with the right species and proper setup.

Congratulations on being a breeder..... who are you again?

[Aleks]

It not about manning up by the way.. And yes if one of your snake gets sick... other one will get it to... didn’t say both together will create sickness! So don’t transform my phrase please! And yes u got me on Garters and I’m happy for u… didn’t think it was so important that u got me on garters on a cornsnake thread!

And no i don’t come her a lot.. So no u don’t know me.. But yes I am on a lot of forums... and if u wants to see my page sure... Montreal tessera cornsnakes (u can check me out on facebook...)

https://www.facebook.com/MontrealTesseraCornSnakes
Only my new stuff is on that page but will give u a nice look!

page is new didint use the web before!

[Aleks]

And for all the rest of people on this thread sorry that this thread got ... by this conversation... when i was only giving u my experience! And didn’t know that helping people would make this kid get all excited like this! What I said about 2 snakes together is a split thinking in the OB and some will react like he did on both side… u guys will see by yourself.. Some will get the idea whit out having to live it them self….

[KORBIN5895]

Nice deflection.

[StudentoReptile]

Now this is causing me some consternation. You usually know your stuff but this is the first time I have ever heard of a boa eating another snake, at least from a credible source. Do you have anything I can read on this?

Granted, I will admit I do not know the background behind this photos, but it does clearly show a BC eating a ball.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b400/MDC_Leviathan/boaeatsBP-1.jpg

This one I do know the background. A friend of mine who breeds hognose had just bought a clutch of hatchling western hogs. The previous owner had some of the snakes 2 to a deli cup. Well, she just left them that on the way home. One decided to eat his sibling.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b400/MDC_Leviathan/IMG_20100918_195415.jpg

I have personally witnessed:
a juvenile cornsnake eat a sibling.
Bull snake eating a dumerils boa.
Spotted python eating a sibling.

I personally believe that any snake is capable of eating another snake its own size or smaller, with few exceptions.

[millertime89]

Rattlesnakes den up together in the wild as well, at least some species
Temple vipers are also frequently found in close proximity to each other.

[KORBIN5895]

Thanks SOR. I now want to know mote about that. I have looked into it quite a bit and never found anything similar. I wonder if there was s rodent involved.....

Now don't be mean Kyle. He only asked for one......

[Snakewitch]

I'm convinced - pictures and all Lankyrob cinched it for me back at the beginning but if there was any lingering doubt, it's gone now!

[StudentoReptile]

Granted, I will say there have been some very nice displays in zoos and museums that featured multiple snakes in one enclosure. However, these were very spacious, naturalistic exhibits that featured multiple perches, basking areas, hiding areas, etc...much better and larger accommodations than the standard 55 or 75 gallon tank.

I'm not saying it's okay, or the risk isn't there, but many people try to use the "Well, I saw a zoo do it, and their animals are fine!" card. Just pointing out that in most of those cases, the exhibit in question is much more spacious than what the private keeper is willing or even able to provide.

[Aaron_S]

Now this is causing me some consternation. You usually know your stuff but this is the first time I have ever heard of a boa eating another snake, at least from a credible source. Do you have anything I can read on this?

I figured I'd add here. I don't know the background and don't remember where I got the photos. So suck it Kevin...


Anyway GRAPHIC PHOTO AHEAD....

























http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/godzilla99/boaball.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/godzilla99/boaball3.jpg

[Wyldrose]

Here's a collection of pics of snakes eating others
Can I Keep Multiple Snakes in One Enclosure? | squamishserpents.ca (http://squamishserpents.ca/care-info/can-i-keep-multiple-snakes-in-one-enclosure)

[beardeds4life]

Rules for all reptile... one animal one vivarium! It reduce stress... disease and other problems cause by stress (ex : stop eating).... in the wild there isn’t one reptile that will live whit another except when it’s time to breed! And even when breeding at home... u will not let both together for a long period

I agree that this is a blanket statement and not entirely true. It is true for some things but not all. I know these are not snakes but since you said "all reptiles" leopard geckos live in colonies with quite a few females and 1-2 males.

[EmbraceCalamity]

I agree that this is a blanket statement and not entirely true. It is true for some things but not all. I know these are not snakes but since you said "all reptiles" leopard geckos live in colonies with quite a few females and 1-2 males.Leopard geckos don't naturally live in colonies. They're solitary animals. Some breeders house them together because it's more convenient, but even they agree that it should only be done by professionals because there are a multitude of problems that arise from it - bullying, fights, etc. Some of the leos can be hurt, not allowed food, or prevented from proper thermoregulation because they get pushed out of the best spots. Many people say no to ever housing leos together because they aren't communal reptiles. Also, no two males should ever, ever, ever be housed together, so I have no idea where you got the 1-2 males idea from.

Mourning geckos, however, are truly communal and do best in groups.

~Maggot

[beardeds4life]

In the wild they do in fact live in large colonies in rock caves and stuff. And in captivity in the tiny cages that people use you can not ever have 2 males together. But in the wild the dominant males offspring will continue to live their and they get along fine with the dominant male even as adults. Take for example Patrick Huddleson's experiment. He setup a very large naturalistic vivarium that was basically a small ecosystem that very well replicated their natural environment. At times their was a number of adult males living together and commonly sharing hides etc. I will try to dig up some info on this. When you say now two males should ever be housed together I agree with you except for the rare exception that you have a naturalistic vivarium and the males are born and raised in the viv with their father. Most of the time what you said is totally true because almost no one keeps their animals in large enclosures.

[beardeds4life]

[QUOTE]"In 1994, Philippe De Vosjolie experimented with developing naturalistic vivaria where lizards bred, eggs hatched and the offspring allowed to grow in the same enclosure. His initial were tiny geckos of the genus Tropiocolotes. He initially called this approach to enclosure design self sustaining vivaria, based on the idea that the population would grow and become self sustaining. For obvious reasons this was a poor choice of terminology. The population in these vivaria eventually grew so large that animals had to be regularly removed. A better descriptive term would be multi-generation vivaria. In any case, many hobbyists were inspired by the concept and worked on replicating them. Patrick Huddleson, a hobbyist from Iowa who played a important role in helping the Vivarium magazine popularize naturalistic vivaria, decided to ignore all of the expert advice and replicate de Vosjolis experiment using Leopard Geckos. He assembled a 48-inch long vivarium complete with sandy soil, stacked rocks that formed rocks and crevices, a moist egg laying area, and live plants. He introduced and adult pair of leopard geckos and did not remove any eggs laid from the enclosure. The eggs hatched and to his surprise, the adults did not eat the babies but displayed frequent tongue-flicking. At differant times, babies or adults showed signs of following each other. The babies grew up and in there turn bred in the same enclosure. He ended the experiment after the F2 generation. At that time the tank held 18 geckos including 3 males. During the last year of the experiment he had started removing geckos from the tank because it was becoming over crowded and he was noticing signs of aggression between males. For the serious herpers who read his vivarium article, the experiment turned many of their preconceptions upside down, not to mention that Patrick Huddleson had just presented a revolutionary and much more advanced approach to keeping and displaying these lizards.

-taken from "The Herpetoculture of Leopard Geckos: Twenty Seven Generations of Living At"- /QUOTE]

[KORBIN5895]

I figured I'd add here. I don't know the background and don't remember where I got the photos. So suck it Kevin...


Anyway GRAPHIC PHOTO AHEAD....


]

Hey Arron. Do you hear that? That's me rattling my zipper.

[EmbraceCalamity]

I had not heard of this experiment, but it's been proven that leos incubated at higher temps are less likely to be aggressive (ScienceDirect.com - Physiology & Behavior - Incubation temperature affects the behavior of adult leopard geckos (Eublepharis macularius) (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0031938494903891)), so that would skew the results.

But I'd like to see some support to the claim that they live in colonies in the wild. I'd also like to see some evidence of the suggestion that the fact that these geckos were related made them more likely to get along.

I also find it very suspicious that none of these leos received any injuries (the only way he could know that is if he checked every leo every day). For this to really prove that this is a 100% effective method, all geckos would need to be checked every single day for any signs of injuries, they would need to be nearly constantly monitored to check for signs of aggression, and they would all need to be weighed and growth rates monitored, among other things. It's a nice anecdote, but proving that it can work (though it states that three males was too many, so it doesn't really seem all that revolutionary) isn't the same as proving it's natural for them and that they should be kept that way.

~Maggot

[beardeds4life]

I do not see any point in carrying this on because it is bound to get unfriendly.

But no one ever suggested that the fact that they are related made them get along. That could not be farther from the truth. It has been scientifically proven that the deep limbic system in all reptiles is extremely undeveloped. This is the part of the brain that control emotions. Reptiles can not feel love or family ties or anything of that matter.

Also male leopard geckos incubated at LOWER temps produce animals less likely to be aggressive. This is due to the fact that incubation temp controls the level of testosterone in their bodies. Males with low levels are almost always way less aggressive. These are dubbed "girlie" geckos. Now females produced at male incubation temperature (higher temp) are usually very aggressive due to HIGH levels of testosterone. These are dubbed "hot" females. They almost always are extremely aggressive.

[Aleks]

true! and I did breed some for some years and did keep some together... lost one female becose of it!


Leopard geckos don't naturally live in colonies. They're solitary animals. Some breeders house them together because it's more convenient, but even they agree that it should only be done by professionals because there are a multitude of problems that arise from it - bullying, fights, etc. Some of the leos can be hurt, not allowed food, or prevented from proper thermoregulation because they get pushed out of the best spots. Many people say no to ever housing leos together because they aren't communal reptiles. Also, no two males should ever, ever, ever be housed together, so I have no idea where you got the 1-2 males idea from.

Mourning geckos, however, are truly communal and do best in groups.

~Maggot

[Aleks]

And yes all of u u can keep 2 corns together and maybe never get any problems... the day that u will u will understand why I don't tell people to do so! and at the price I pay my corns.. I will never take the chance...

(waiting on korbin I know everything comment... cant wait to see it!)

[Aleks]

and by the way... I never talked about corn eating them self loll (even if possible that wasn't my point!)

[EmbraceCalamity]

I do not see any point in carrying this on because it is bound to get unfriendly....Why start the post with that and then proceed to carry it on?
But no one ever suggested that the fact that they are related made them get along. That could not be farther from the truth. It has been scientifically proven that the deep limbic system in all reptiles is extremely undeveloped. This is the part of the brain that control emotions. Reptiles can not feel love or family ties or anything of that matter."When you say now two males should ever be housed together I agree with you except for the rare exception that you have a naturalistic vivarium and the males are born and raised in the viv with their father."
Also male leopard geckos incubated at LOWER temps produce animals less likely to be aggressive. This is due to the fact that incubation temp controls the level of testosterone in their bodies. Males with low levels are almost always way less aggressive. These are dubbed "girlie" geckos. Now females produced at male incubation temperature (higher temp) are usually very aggressive due to HIGH levels of testosterone. These are dubbed "hot" females. They almost always are extremely aggressive.That was simply a typo.

Again, I'd like to see evidence of your claim that they are communal. Just because it can be done, that doesn't mean it's natural for them or that it should be done.

~Maggot

[Aleks]

for leo.. when u get female at hi temperature.. They are call hot female.. And are likely to me more aggressive!

never experience this on male

[EmbraceCalamity]

for leo.. when u get female at hi temperature.. They are call hot female.. And are likely to me more aggressive!

never experience this on maleIf you're talking to me, I'm familiar with the term.

~Maggot

[KORBIN5895]

If you're talking to me, I'm familiar with the term.

~Maggot

I think he might be drunk. His grammar has gotten pretty shoddy in these posts.

[EmbraceCalamity]

I think he might be drunk. His grammar has gotten pretty shoddy in these posts.Ah, drunk posting. Something I still need to do. :)

~Maggot

[KORBIN5895]

Ah, drunk posting. Something I still need to do. :)

~Maggot

It's always good for a laugh the next day.

[EmbraceCalamity]

It's always good for a laugh the next day.I'm never really home when I'm drunk though, so doubt it'll happen.

~Maggot