Enigma Syndrome Discussion

[EmbraceCalamity]

So I know this isn't a gecko forum, but there are some people here who have leos or at least are familiar with them. So I was curious about the opinions of people here about what's called Enigma Syndrome.

Basically, Enigma Syndrome is a neurological condition that allegedly results in seeing the world in constant motion that is present in all "enigmas," which is an extremely beautiful morph of leopard gecko produced back in 2006. Some enigmas have thus far lived their lives without showing symptoms (yet, as none have lived their full lives because they've only been around for 6 years). Symptoms can arise at any time in the gecko's life, so it's unclear if any will live their full lives without any.

Symptoms can range from just a slight head tilt or "stargazing" to circling, "death rolls," seizures, and an inability to even stand. I read one story about an enigma that had never shown any symptoms suddenly having an attack and choking on its shed. Obviously some have to be euthanised and some die, while others just need special care but can live relatively normally (thus far).

So, in the leo world, there's a huge debate about whether or not these should still be bred. Some believe it's possible to breed it out by breeding non-symptomatic enigmas or crossbreeding, while others believe they should be bred as long as full disclosure is given to the owners, and then some believe they should never be bred ever. I'm curious about what y'all think. But let me say ahead of time that this can and should be kept civil. Just a discussion. Nothing more. :)

~Maggot

[BarelyBreathing]

Symptoms tend to arise around a stressful situation (shipping, vetting, breeding, egg laying, etc). I would tend to doubt that the choking was actually caused by enigma syndrome, as the symptoms usually start with a slow onset and progress as time goes on. I say that's just a weird coincidence, but I wouldn't bet money on that.

I am okay with them being bred on a few circumstances. First off, if an enigma is bred to a non enigma, the symptoms tend to lessen or not present at all. I would not breed a female enigma, though. The reason behind this is it is theorized that enigma syndrome affects how the animals' bodies absorb nutrients (Texas A&M study). I've read that in the animals showing severe symptoms, their bodies were severely deprived of certain nutrients. When females lay eggs, they are deprived of these nutrients. It only makes sense that this would be a good reason to not breed females.

[EmbraceCalamity]

Symptoms tend to arise around a stressful situation (shipping, vetting, breeding, egg laying, etc). I would tend to doubt that the choking was actually caused by enigma syndrome, as the symptoms usually start with a slow onset and progress as time goes on. I say that's just a weird coincidence, but I wouldn't bet money on that.One of my favourite Leopard gecko's died - Geckos Unlimited (http://www.geckosunlimited.com/community/leopard-geckos-other-eublepharis/61633-one-my-favourite-leopard-geckos-died.html)
I am okay with them being bred on a few circumstances. First off, if an enigma is bred to a non enigma, the symptoms tend to lessen or not present at all.Except there's no way to know that for sure. None of these geckos could possibly be more than a few years old, meaning none of them have lived even half their lives yet.

~Maggot

[BarelyBreathing]

No, there isn't a way to know that, however studies and tried and true personal experience tend to lean that way. I'm checking out that link now.

[EmbraceCalamity]

No, there isn't a way to know that, however studies and tried and true personal experience tend to lean that way. I'm checking out that link now.Except my point is that "personal experience" means nothing because it just means so far it appears to lessen the symptoms. Later, when these geckos are older, that might not be true anymore.

~Maggot

[BarelyBreathing]

Except my point is that "personal experience" means nothing because it just means so far it appears to lessen the symptoms. Later, when these geckos are older, that might not be true anymore.

~Maggot

Unfortunately, there's really only one way to find out.

So, you posted the topic. What's your take on breeding?

[beardeds4life]

I think they should be bred but only animals showing little to no symptoms should be bred and never 2 enigmas together. I know people who have perfectly normal enigmas.

[EmbraceCalamity]

Unfortunately, there's really only one way to find out.

So, you posted the topic. What's your take on breeding?I don't think it should ever, ever be done. The possibility of some success isn't worth the suffering of the inevitable failures. I've experienced seeing everything in constant motion, and it's very awful. As pretty as they are, the risks don't outweigh the benefits. Breeders have a duty to the animals they care for and produce to not intentionally cause suffering.I think they should be bred but only animals showing little to no symptoms should be bred and never 2 enigmas together. I know people who have perfectly normal enigmas.What about the fact that the severity of the symptoms of the parents has little to no bearing on the severity of symptoms of the offspring?

~Maggot

[beardeds4life]

I highly disagree with that. A mid to large size breeder that I regularly talk with breeds his no showing enigmas every year and always has no symptom enigmas. He doesnt breed 2 together because then they have 2 enigma genes and they have much worse symptoms.

In your first post you said lets keep it civil but it seems to me that you are being the most rude of anyone.

[EmbraceCalamity]

I highly disagree with that. A mid to large size breeder that I regularly talk with breeds his no showing enigmas every year and always has no symptom enigmas. He doesnt breed 2 together because then they have 2 enigma genes and they have much worse symptoms.

In your first post you said lets keep it civil but it seems to me that you are being the most rude of anyone.But how old are these geckos? Symptoms can appear at any time throughout their lives, and it's impossible that they're more than a few years old. Also, the probability that none of his geckos show any symptoms is astronomically small.

I've not been rude at all. I'm not sure what you're talking about. I asked you a legitimate question because this is a discussion - and questions are part of discussion.

~Maggot

[BarelyBreathing]

How is Maggot being rude? You can disagree without being rude, and I think that Maggot is disagreeing in a polite and respectful way. That is why this is a discussion.

Anyway, I agree with you on some aspects, Maggot. It is our duty as breeders to be sure the wellfare of our animals comes first, both the parents and the offspring. I think breeding any animal needs to make that a priority. I think special care should be taken with these delicate animals, but then again, I would say that the same care and effort should be made for every animal, not just the problem ones.

[beardeds4life]

Disregard the rude part. I re read your posts and I mis interpreted them. Sorry:hmm:

[Lankyrob]

Disregard the rude part. I re read your posts and I mis interpreted them. Sorry:hmm:

Kudos for being man enough to apologise :)

[Gregg M]

Here is my take on the enigma subject.
I was one of the first breeders to work with the enigmas. In fact, my friend Kelli was the one to prove the gene out and offered me some of the first available.

I can tell you that breeding enigma to non enigma does NOT lessen the syndrome. And breeding enigma to enigma does not worsen the syndrome. It is a crap shoot either way. Some will show less and some will show more no matter what the pairing is. Even if the enigma that produces offspring does not show signs, its offspring can still show the worst of the signs of ES.
Enigmas were almost exclusively outcrossed because there is no need to breed enigma to enigma because it does not make a super form. Pretty much from day one, they were bred into other morphs to create the next new designer leopard gecko.

This is not something that can be bred out of the enigmas. Unfortunately, the defect comes with the paint job. Same as it does with spider balls and jaguar carpets. The non enigma siblings NEVER show the signs of enigma syndrome. That tells the story right there. Anyone who says their enigma shows no sign of the syndrome is flat out lying or in total denial.

I have produced well over two hundred enigmas and never sold any of them because my personal feelings are that this type of defect should not be propagated in captivity. That is my personal feelings and I would never slam someone for feeling differently and wanting to breed them. They are pretty but in my opinion they make better feeders than they do pets or breeding projects.

[beardeds4life]

What did you do with all 200?

[Gregg M]

What did you do with all 200?

As soon as they showed signs of the syndrome, they became food items for my other reptile eating reptiles.

[EmbraceCalamity]

As soon as they showed signs of the syndrome, they became food items for my other reptile eating reptiles.I assume they all did?

~Maggot

[Gregg M]

I assume they all did?

~Maggot

Every last one.

[EmbraceCalamity]

Every last one.All young?

~Maggot

[Gregg M]

All young?

~Maggot

Some out of the egg and some didnt show signs until they were a few months old. A few never showed signs until they were bred. But eventually, they ALL showed signs.

I know for a fact that EVERY enigma will show signs of the syndrome. Some may be very slight and some much more noticable but they will all show it.

[Wildside]

After reading this thread I have decided never to spend money on an enigma. I love this site!

[BarelyBreathing]

Every last one.

That's harsh, I'm sorry.

[EmbraceCalamity]

After reading this thread I have decided never to spend money on an enigma. I love this site!Yay! I'm glad I could do that. :D I've decided not to spend any money at a place that breeds them. I know there will always be people who breed them, but the fewer ones out there suffering, the better.

I wonder if it'd be possible to alter their genes with some high tech genetic engineering though? Obviously it can't simply be bred out, but a lot of things can be changed with genetic engineering. Of course, that won't really ever happen. Just a theoretical thing.

~Maggot

[Wildside]

I actually bought a new leo today...I'm gonna post a pic in a bit and see if someone can tell me what morph it is. Santa is bringing it to my daughter ;)

[Gregg M]

That's harsh, I'm sorry.

What is harsh?

[EmbraceCalamity]

I actually bought a new leo today...I'm gonna post a pic in a bit and see if someone can tell me what morph it is. Santa is bringing it to my daughter ;)I WANT TO SEE. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D There were sooooo many leos at the show that I wanted. What is harsh?She meant that must be rough to see each one of them suffer. I guess not for you.

~Maggot

[Wildside]

I WANT TO SEE. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D There were sooooo many leos at the show that I wanted.
~Maggot

As soon as she falls asleep. I'm sure it's probably some sort of albino morph but I want to see what the general consensus is as I'm not that good with leo morphs yet.

[Gregg M]

She meant that must be rough to see each one of them suffer. I guess not for you.

~Maggot

Why would you guess it would not be rough for me to see?
It was not pleasent to see. That is why they were quickly euthanized/culled (fed off) as soon as they started to display the syndrome. Not into seeing reptiles or any animal suffer.

The reason why I bred so many was because it was in the very start of the morph and I was trying to breed out the defect. Unfortunately after a few generations it was clear that it was not going anywhere.

[EmbraceCalamity]

Why would you guess it would not be rough for me to see?
It was not pleasent to see. That is why they were quickly euthanized/culled (fed off) as soon as they started to display the syndrome. Not into seeing reptiles or any animal suffer.

The reason why I bred so many was because it was in the very start of the morph and I was trying to breed out the defect. Unfortunately after a few generations it was clear that it was not going anywhere.I didn't make that comment because you bred them. As soon as she falls asleep. I'm sure it's probably some sort of albino morph but I want to see what the general consensus is as I'm not that good with leo morphs yet.I'm not very good either. I think albinos have to have red eyes though, right?

~Maggot

[Wildside]

I didn't make that comment because you bred them. I'm not very good either. I think albinos have to have red eyes though, right?

~Maggot

I'm not sure but I don't think so when it comes to leos.

[EmbraceCalamity]

I'm not sure but I don't think so when it comes to leos.Guide to Leopard Gecko Morphs an (http://www.paulsagereptiles.com/LeopardGenetics.htm)

I'm so bad with morphs. They kind of all look the same to me, honestly, because I suck like that. >.>

~Maggot

[Wildside]

Guide to Leopard Gecko Morphs an (http://www.paulsagereptiles.com/LeopardGenetics.htm)

I'm so bad with morphs. They kind of all look the same to me, honestly, because I suck like that. >.>

~Maggot


I suck like that too :sad:

[EmbraceCalamity]

I suck like that too :sad:I guess that's another reason I don't get breeding enigmas. I don't see them as super special. People talk about them like they're the most gorgeous things ever, but I don't see them as that different.

~Maggot

[Gregg M]

I didn't make that comment because you bred them.

So, why did you make that comment?

[BarelyBreathing]

What is harsh?

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. It's harsh that they all turned out to have the syndrome.

[Gregg M]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. It's harsh that they all turned out to have the syndrome.

Yes BB, it sucked. I was very excited about being one of the first breeders in on the project.

The males that I used when I first got in on the project did not show signs until after their breeding season. We did not know what was going on with them. One went off feed once the syndrome started and never recovered. The other lived for one more season and died of complications due to the syndrome.

When neonates started hatching out with the syndrome we knew we were dealing with something genetic. No one knew how bad it really was yet. Myself and other breeders tried season after season to breed out the defect. Obviously, it does not breed out.

I can also say with certainty that no one owns an enigma from the original stock. In fact I would venture to say that in general, enigmas do not live more than a few seasons. The ones I did try to keep alive never thrived. I still have normals from 15 years ago and a snow that is coming up on 10 years old so it is not like I do not know how to keep leos alive.
Emigmas are week animals and usually fail to thrive.

[BarelyBreathing]

Thanks, Gregg. That really opened my eyes. I have two males, a two year old and a yearling, but after reading your post I think I've changed my mind about breeding them.

[EmbraceCalamity]

There's been lots of people trying to produce literature on the subject. I'm kind of surprised and curious why Bell never did. I don't know if he still works with them, but obviously since he produced it, I'd think there'd be something from him. Unless I've not managed to find it.Thanks, Gregg. That really opened my eyes. I have two males, a two year old and a yearling, but after reading your post I think I've changed my mind about breeding them.I hope they can live relatively pain-free lives.

~Maggot

[Gregg M]

There's been lots of people trying to produce literature on the subject. I'm kind of surprised and curious why Bell never did. I don't know if he still works with them, but obviously since he produced it, I'd think there'd be something from him. Unless I've not managed to find it.I hope they can live relatively pain-free lives.

~Maggot

Bell did not prove the morph out. He left that up to Kelli Hammack from hisss. He pretty much dropped the animals in Kellis lap to prove the morph and sell some animals. Kelli did have animals tested and there is some literature on the subject. I will see if I can dig it up.

[EmbraceCalamity]

Bell did not prove the morph out. He left that up to Kelli Hammack from hisss. He pretty much dropped the animals in Kellis lap to prove the morph and sell some animals. Kelli did have animals tested and there is some literature on the subject. I will see if I can dig it up.Fair enough. I'd be interested to read. Though if she still produces it, I'm not sure how accurate the literature would be.

~Maggot

[BarelyBreathing]

I hope they can live relatively pain-free lives.

~Maggot

Me, too. So far no symptoms. The older one is a slow eater, though.