Het albino retic question

[Squirtle]

So, lets say that I have a Tiger Reticulated Python het for lavender albino, and I breed him with a female Purple Albino Reticulated Python. Will the 'het for lavender albino' be able to produce the 3 types of albino (lav, white phase, and purple) when bred to an animal showing the trait?

[Aaron_S]

Yes. That is how I understand it.

Roughly 50% of the babies shall be albino. 50% shall be het for albino and 50% should be tiger, either albino tigers or het albino tigers.

That's the way the square tells it SHOULD go. Nature has a funny way of changing things sometimes.

[Squirtle]

Yes. That is how I understand it.

Roughly 50% of the babies shall be albino. 50% shall be het for albino and 50% should be tiger, either albino tigers or het albino tigers.

That's the way the square tells it SHOULD go. Nature has a funny way of changing things sometimes.

I don't think you understand what I mean lol.

A regular tiger retic is het for lav albino.. and you breed it with a white phase albino retic.. what will hatch out? they aren't the same kind of albino

[millertime89]

lav x white gets lave and white
het lav x white should get you only white I think. It behaves like white and purple are separate, but compatible genes. Let me double check and I'll get back to you but I'm pretty sure I'm right. A het lav is most likely a double het purple white, or that's kind of how it works, I think. Slightly confusing theories.

[millertime89]

Purple x purple = all purple
purple x lav = purples and lavs
purple x white = all lavs
white x lav = whites and lavs
white x white = all whites
lav x lav = all 3.

[Squirtle]

Purple x purple = all purple
purple x lav = purples and lavs
purple x white = all lavs
white x lav = whites and lavs
white x white = all whites
lav x lav = all 3.Thank you! :D

[Aaron_S]

I don't think you understand what I mean lol.

A regular tiger retic is het for lav albino.. and you breed it with a white phase albino retic.. what will hatch out? they aren't the same kind of albino

Yes I understood your question. You asked if you would produce all three from your pairing. I said yes. I don't get how you think I mistook your question.

Kyle, what's your sources.

Apparently my data from the Bob Clark forums 10 years ago is not current enough. I remember when these first popped up and that they were all compatible and you could get any of the 3 from any of the 3 being paired.

[Squirtle]

So, lets say the tiger retic might just be a regular tiger bred to a normal purple albino, will the babies come out tigers 100% albino or what? Sorry I'm not too good with genetics lol

[millertime89]

The breeders at in the Retic Nation group. It'll either be all whites or whites and lavs according to them.. Dunno if there really is such a thing as a het lav. There's still discussion going on about this. I know the above breedings are correct, I'm just not sure how the hets work.
They are all compatible, but the results vary. Its hard to tell a very dark lav from a very light purple so sometimes things get screwed up. Some people agree with what I said above, some don't. I side with what I have said as do some other really prominent breeders, I'm just not going to go through a 600 post thread to figure out who sides with who.

[millertime89]

So, lets say the tiger retic might just be a regular tiger bred to a normal purple albino, will the babies come out tigers 100% albino or what? Sorry I'm not too good with genetics lol

I would say Tiger 100% het purple, some will just call it 100% het Clark strain albino. A friend of mine did het purple to het purple and all of his visuals were purples, he's not the only one to get those results and he's repeating that breeding again this year so we'll see if it holds true I guess.

[Aaron_S]

So, lets say the tiger retic might just be a regular tiger bred to a normal purple albino, will the babies come out tigers 100% albino or what? Sorry I'm not too good with genetics lol

It's a tiger het Albino Type 1(lav, white,purple). That's if memory serves correct.

I don't care who sides with who, just link me it in PM as that's a different topic, sort of.

So you're passing on information that is debated currently as factual?

The part I don't understand is that Bob Clark's original albino male when bred back to his het daughters produced ALL three lav, white, purple in the SAME clutches. So how does that not continue on?

Unless, through selective breeding, people have removed a certain gene from some of them. It would still hold true though that you could end up with a grab bag of retic albinos since it's only been roughly a decade of "serious" retic breeding on the large scale like ball pythons.

Here is Bob Clark's article on his first albino breedings. 13 years ago. Still a solid article.

Bob Clark - Articles (http://www.bobclark.com/articles/200207.html)

[millertime89]

I'll get back to you on the link Aaron, I'll have to dig through forums as the most recent discussions have taken place in a FB group.
I almost think that white and purple are two separate genes that are compatible with each other and people are getting a bunch of purple ph whites and whites ph purples which prove out when bred with others, but I don't think there's really any way to confirm that.

[Aaron_S]

I'll get back to you on the link Aaron, I'll have to dig through forums as the most recent discussions have taken place in a FB group.
I almost think that white and purple are two separate genes that are compatible with each other and people are getting a bunch of purple ph whites and whites ph purples which prove out when bred with others, but I don't think there's really any way to confirm that.

Could be possible. Genetics testing is the only way.

Since it seems that Bob Clark's import albino male seem to exhibit traits of each snake almost. Weird.

Ah well, some of the coolest albinos there are.

[lady_bug87]

I read this and my brain exploded. One day I want someone to sit down with me, and explain it to me like I am an idiot because I cannot understand genetics but I find it so interesting

[millertime89]

Could be possible. Genetics testing is the only way.

Since it seems that Bob Clark's import albino male seem to exhibit traits of each snake almost. Weird.

Ah well, some of the coolest albinos there are.

Think you could find some pics of it? I don't think I've ever seen it now that I think about it. That said, he did say I'm welcome to check out his facility if I'm ever in his area (about 7 hours drive)

[millertime89]

I read this and my brain exploded. One day I want someone to sit down with me, and explain it to me like I am an idiot because I cannot understand genetics but I find it so interesting

Clark strain and Anthrax/Graniteback/Shatterback are the only ones in retics that are currently confusing as hell. The only other one with a big question mark is "will there be a super motley?".

[Aaron_S]

Think you could find some pics of it? I don't think I've ever seen it now that I think about it. That said, he did say I'm welcome to check out his facility if I'm ever in his area (about 7 hours drive)

Is this after or before his fire?

If he had his old site still up there were pics with the articles. Find the original articles and I'm sure they'd be in there. NEVERMIND, there's a video of it LOL...

Link.... Bob Clark - Instructional Videos (http://www.bobclark.com/instructional_videos.html)

The article doesn't have one but it does state that that male is under 10 foot still. Was imported in the 9 foot mark.

[millertime89]

What about before or after the fire? I just spoke with him two weeks ago when I asked.

Thanks, still looking for a link. Will a FB discussion thread suffice? Most of the retic discussion that I'm a part of takes place there and the accompanying forum isn't exactly active.

[Aaron_S]

What about before or after the fire? I just spoke with him two weeks ago when I asked.

Thanks, still looking for a link. Will a FB discussion thread suffice? Most of the retic discussion that I'm a part of takes place there and the accompanying forum isn't exactly active.

As long as I don't have join any groups.

I wasn't sure if he was operational yet or not.

YOU'RE WELCOME for the detective work of the original albino for you lol

[lady_bug87]

Clark strain and Anthrax/Graniteback/Shatterback are the only ones in retics that are currently confusing as hell. The only other one with a big question mark is "will there be a super motley?".


..... ok.
You know I am super bad with this so I am going to smile and nod now

[millertime89]

I don't think you do to see posts, lol.
As far as I know he's opperational, I do know he had two facilities at the time of the fire and had a lot of his younger animals survive.
I requested pics of the original albino, you requested further citations, even trade isn't it?

[millertime89]

..... ok.
You know I am super bad with this so I am going to smile and nod now

What do you want to know? I'll do my best to help.

[lady_bug87]

Ohh its a disaster I cant wrap my head around any of it. not Ball Python genetics, not Boa genetics, not anything

[millertime89]

Best I can do for now, I'll get you the FB link this afternoon, gotta run.

[Aaron_S]

Best I can do for now, I'll get you the FB link this afternoon, gotta run.

I can't even read that. Thanks for not much.

[millertime89]

well you don't want to join a forum... I'll host it tonight on photobucket.

I JUST found the FB link. 651 posts, have fun.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/113094078788532/permalink/293053560792582/

Here's when I asked. I generally trust Paul, but I'm not sure if I agree with him this time.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/113094078788532/permalink/342035419227729/?comment_id=342059799225291&offset=0&total_comments=8

[reptileexperts]

From a genetic standpoint it makes sense that you would get all three phases by breeding a lavender to labender. However, breeding a lavender to a het brings up a different question as to what you get. From my general assumptions on how this works, lets do some basic genetics to assign stuff and help break it down. Purple = PP, White = WW, Lavander = PW. Therefor simple mendalion principle alone tells us the rest.

PP x PP = all purple
PW X PW = All three
PP x PW = Purples and Lavs
WW x PP = All Lavs
PW x WW = Whites and Lavs...

However, unless bob hit the amazing gold mine with a trisomy albino from the wild containing 3 copies of the gene, that would be the only explination of why his result of a het made a difference, but then even one of the hets he bred to would have to somehow be a non-visual double carrier for that to work!?

Oh well, if you have a question how I got the stuff above just ask. Genetics need not be difficult!

[millertime89]

However, unless bob hit the amazing gold mine with a trisomy albino from the wild containing 3 copies of the gene, that would be the only explination of why his result of a het made a difference, but then even one of the hets he bred to would have to somehow be a non-visual double carrier for that to work!?

That's why I think its two different compatible genes. Wouldn't be the first time a reticulated python was proven with two different genes. NERD recently proved that their Ghost Stripe morph was two different morphs, Orange Ghost Stripe (OGS) a recessive, and Phantom Stripe, an incomplete dom. For what its worth a Cow Retic is Phantom Stripe het Orange Ghost Stripe. Jay Brewer at PP proved that Anthrax, at least the ones that he got, are two different genes, Anthrax a recessive, and Shatter, a co-dom, but NERD still thinks Graniteback (what Jay is calling Shatter) is the co-dom and Anthrax is the super.

[reptileexperts]

From a genetic stand point - any gene that produces a visual result with only ONE copy of the gene present, that gene is said to be dominant. Now, whether or not we go into incomplete dominance vs co-dominant vs simple dominance is a whole different factor. It has been argued that Pied in ball pythons should be considered a co-dominant because you can visually distinguish het pied from normals due to markers. These markers are a visual representation of that gene meaning that it has expression. Recessive genes CAN NOT have expression with just a single copy - Anthrax is not recessive. Granite Back is Shatter and IS Co-Dom based on this theory alone. Titanium is another one that could be considered co-dom, because Citron (het tit) is distinguishable from a normal by itself. Again, a true recessive is something like Albino which does not produce any visual results with one copy of the gene. Make sense?

[Aaron_S]

From a genetic stand point - any gene that produces a visual result with only ONE copy of the gene present, that gene is said to be dominant. Now, whether or not we go into incomplete dominance vs co-dominant vs simple dominance is a whole different factor. It has been argued that Pied in ball pythons should be considered a co-dominant because you can visually distinguish het pied from normals due to markers. These markers are a visual representation of that gene meaning that it has expression. Recessive genes CAN NOT have expression with just a single copy - Anthrax is not recessive. Granite Back is Shatter and IS Co-Dom based on this theory alone. Titanium is another one that could be considered co-dom, because Citron (het tit) is distinguishable from a normal by itself. Again, a true recessive is something like Albino which does not produce any visual results with one copy of the gene. Make sense?

From talking to on another forum there is no TRUE co-dom in ball pythons. Pieds don't count because there are a lot of hets without markers. It have to be consistent.

I can't comment on the granite/shatter because I don't know them thoroughly enough. Co-dom is the expression of two genes at once. I get the pied reference but too bad for the people who believe it because it's wrong.

[Aaron_S]

well you don't want to join a forum... I'll host it tonight on photobucket.

I JUST found the FB link. 651 posts, have fun.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/113094078788532/permalink/293053560792582/

Here's when I asked. I generally trust Paul, but I'm not sure if I agree with him this time.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/113094078788532/permalink/342035419227729/?comment_id=342059799225291&offset=0&total_comments=8


Bookmarked for fun later.

I never said I didn't want to join a forum. I said groups on facebook since that's where you said it originally came from.

[reptileexperts]

Many if not all het pieds will have markers. Co-Dom for our understanding in breeding genetics means that when the animal contains two copies of a dominate gene there is a significant difference. Now we could just associate that to incomplete dominance from a strict genetic stand point, but we refer to anything that has a super form as a Co-dominate animal. . .

Another example of the co-dominate in real world genetics is blood typing, AB+, o-, so forth. This is an example of a different outcome when you contain two copies of different dominant genes.

Incomplete dominance makes a difference though when you have genes that blend together to form unique results. In this case, nearly all morphs are considered incomplete dominant with some exceptions where they prove to be lethal combinations (Spider x Champagne in BP).

So yes, there probably is no real co-dominate, we simply have dominant or recessive genes that act and react different to one another. However, in reality there are no normal dominant genes, because in morphs when two copies are present it almost always makes a truly different paint job.

[Aaron_S]

No, not all het pids have markers. Mine didn't and plenty of people have bought "marker balls" and not pop out pieds. Even if many do, it still discredits the whole theory based on the fact that it needs to be consistent.

All ball python co-dom traits are actually incomplete dominant. We use co-dom purely as a marketing standpoint.

Here are some links to help others distinguish things.

co-dom vs inc-dom (http://www.reptileradio.net/reptileradio/showthread.php?41943-co-dom-vs-inc-dom)

modes of inheritance (http://www.reptileradio.net/reptileradio/showthread.php?41942-modes-of-inheritance)

[reptileexperts]

I would agree mostly that morphs should be considered incomplete dominance. With some remaining just dominant (Champagne, Spider, Pinstripe - simply because there is no Homozygous form of these genes that survives - we could even through Jaguar in there). I do believe we are OK calling SOME things co-dominate because of the way they react to other genes. If they simply brighten with two copies as in Pastel, we would call that codominance. If things drastically change as in Super Fires, Mojaves, Lesser, or in retics Plattinum, you could call these incomplete dominance, but many people are now refering to them as Visual hets for a recessive trait (Luecistic - aka Blue eyed Lucy and Black eyed Lucy). This topic has definitely been beat around quite a bit by numerous breeders, and the results will always be arguable. Not trying to be the guy who changes the way things are done, just bringing all the facts to light that have been discussed before.

[Aaron_S]

I would agree mostly that morphs should be considered incomplete dominance. With some remaining just dominant (Champagne, Spider, Pinstripe - simply because there is no Homozygous form of these genes that survives - we could even through Jaguar in there). I do believe we are OK calling SOME things co-dominate because of the way they react to other genes. If they simply brighten with two copies as in Pastel, we would call that codominance. If things drastically change as in Super Fires, Mojaves, Lesser, or in retics Plattinum, you could call these incomplete dominance, but many people are now refering to them as Visual hets for a recessive trait (Luecistic - aka Blue eyed Lucy and Black eyed Lucy). This topic has definitely been beat around quite a bit by numerous breeders, and the results will always be arguable. Not trying to be the guy who changes the way things are done, just bringing all the facts to light that have been discussed before.

The real genetics geeks from the forum I posted from say it's all incomplete dominant. Personally, I stick to co-dom as it's just easier for people to understand.

Technically, we can't call them just dominant because even though they have "super" forms that die, they still produce them. Pinstripe/spider don't make anything except more pins and spiders when bred though so I'd call them dominant. Super champs just die so it would make them in-complete dominant because it DOES exist.

I hope that this thread has taught some people something new is all I was aiming for.

[reptileexperts]

super spiders die - super pinstripes don't exist because they die - genetically speaking it can not be that the super does not simply exist, it just means that the super is not viable and either dies during fertilization or what not. Incomplete dominance is an accurate representation over all, but its def not the "accepted norm"

[lady_bug87]

So for all us remedial kids in class... What makes something a super and why do they die?

[KORBIN5895]

Not all supers die. I know nothing about retics and very little about royals but I can figure out boas.

A motley boa is a co-dominant ( I guess from reading this the term is incomplete dominant) gene. When a motley is bred to any boa that is not motley about half of the babies have the visual motley patterning and the other half look normal. The half that look normal will never produce a motley unless bred to a visual motley.

When two motleys are bred together you will get 75% motleys and 25% super motleys. Super motleys are a very dark boa with an almost solid pattern iirc.

The kicker is this, a motley is a central American boa mutation. When two ca motleys are beef together the super forms survive just fine.

Now if you cross a ca motley to a Colombian boa you get Colombian motley. When two Colombian motleys are bred the super forms tend to die quite you ( in the first two years I think.)

[Aaron_S]

super spiders die - super pinstripes don't exist because they die - genetically speaking it can not be that the super does not simply exist, it just means that the super is not viable and either dies during fertilization or what not. Incomplete dominance is an accurate representation over all, but its def not the "accepted norm"

Can you point me to readings where super pins die or any record of an actual one? Super spider and super champs have been made but they die either just before hatching or shortly after. So they have been made. If the super pin dies before conception then there would be a higher loss of eggs during incubation as then it truly be a "lethal gene".

[Aaron_S]

So for all us remedial kids in class... What makes something a super and why do they die?

I told you you can have a lesson whenever! Coffee would suffice instead of dinner :P

They die, for unknown reasons. It's on a genetic level. For whatever reason to gene expressed twice in the same animal somehow makes them less "hardy". There may be some explanation but I have yet to read it and would be most curious.

What makes the super is the expression of the two genes in the same animal at once. So take mojaves for example. When expressed as the incomplete dominant (or co-dom for most people) they show the morph as we know it. When bred together we produce a white snake. That's the "super form". What confuses other people more is that there are other genes that reside on the same allele. They look different on the incomplete dominant level but when bred to another one they produce the same "super form". In this instance we can take mojave breed it to a lesser and make white snakes.

Also, if anyone doesn't know alleles. Think of it as genetic trees. If you have a gene on the same tree but just a different branch (different colour/pattern) they will produce the same or very similar "super" forms.

[reptileexperts]

If two motley are bred together you will get 25% normal, 50% motely, and 25% Super Motley . . .
Mm x Mm = 25% MM (super), 25% mm (normal), 50% (motley).

Super just means that it contains two copies of a given gene at the loci of the mutation. In a lot of cases the super form is completely different than the normal single gene mutation but to speak more specifically - A super gene complex is one that exist in a Homozygous state - Homozygous meaning that both allelic genes are the same mutation. Each parent offers one gene at each Loci. If the parent is a super, then it would HAVE to offer the mutant gene, does that make sense?

Xx = Heterozygous, xx = Homozygous, XX = Homozygous

For albonism it is a recessive mutation where the dominant trait is normal (X) and the visual mutation would be named (x). So for it to be shown you would need the homozygous form of the recessive mutation (xx), so when you do a cross of a normal and an albino just to follow this through deeper . . .

XX (normal) xx (albino) crossed in a punnet square we get
100% Xx offspring. This is because one parent (the normal) can only donate a normal copy (X), and the other parent can only donate a single copy of the mutated gene (x)

If we then cross two of the siblings, brother and sister of this pairing we get the following . . .

(Xx) x (Xx) =

25% Albino (xx - Homozygous recessive), 25% Normal (XX - Homozygous), and 50% Heterozygous for Albino animals (Xx).

When you see people selling animals that are 66% hets, let me push a little further and break that down for those who are curious.

Because we crossed the two Heterozygous animals (Xx) we can visually tell which ones are Albino (the 25%). Therefor, we are left with 3/4 of the animals as possible carriers of the gene. Because we ALSO know that 1/2 (50%) of the snakes should be het, probability of any of the offspring sold as being Heterozygous for albino would then come down to 66% (we do not say 50% simply because we know that a quarter were Albino so we have to account for that in probability).

The reason that some supers are lethal is simply because mutations aren't always a good thing in the body. In the case of Jaguar genes in Carpet Pythons. The only supers that have been produced survived up to about the last 1-2 weeks of incubation where they died in the egg. When the eggs were cut open they found a solid white leucistic snake that's heart developed outside the body in all 3 cases. Similar things happened with the Champagne - Super champagnes produce a pink / white snake. In all cases where Champagne x champagne was used this snake did not make it to birth, or was born severly kinked and died within a week or was euthanized in sever cases (Kevin at NERD has posted about this on a youtube video). Alrighty, any questions?

[Aaron_S]

...The reason that some supers are lethal is simply because mutations aren't always a good thing in the body. In the case of Jaguar genes in Carpet Pythons. The only supers that have been produced survived up to about the last 1-2 weeks of incubation where they died in the egg. When the eggs were cut open they found a solid white leucistic snake that's heart developed outside the body in all 3 cases. Similar things happened with the Champagne - Super champagnes produce what some people refer to as a Pearl. This snake HAS been produced through other mutations alive, but in all cases where Champagne x champagne was used the pearl snake did not make it to birth, or was born severly kinked and died within a week or was euthanized in sever cases (Kevin at NERD has posted about this on a youtube video). Alrighty, any questions?

Pet peeve of mine. The pearl is the crossing of hidden gene woma x hidden gene woma. I also believe it's woma x woma.

Super champs have no name and were done recently in 2012 and maybe 2011. Comes out a white with pink hues.

[reptileexperts]

Aaron, show me a homozygous spider? or a homozygous pinstripe?? they dont exist because they die during one part or another of the incubation or fertilzation process. BHB Made ONE claim that they had a super pinstripe that threw nothing but pins, but that is the exception. Because one super survives, we can not say the combo isn't lethal. Also, explain why people do not breed spider to spider or pin to pin? Who cares if the visual would look any different, if you had a male that threw all pinstripe and was a super pastel to boot, you'd ALWAYS throw lemonblasts. People would make them if they could, but they cant. The proof? Look at the lack of evidence that they can. We have to speculate from here.

[reptileexperts]

Pet Peeve huh? Sorry, my mistake that they perhaps called it something else? Yes Pearls were created with a HG Woma

[reptileexperts]

Edited as to not offend you . ..

[reptileexperts]

Lethal Ball Python combos Part 2 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fhnR5YdGdI) watch this to learn more on lethal combos in ball python.

[Aaron_S]

Aaron, show me a homozygous spider? or a homozygous pinstripe?? they dont exist because they die during one part or another of the incubation or fertilzation process. BHB Made ONE claim that they had a super pinstripe that threw nothing but pins, but that is the exception. Because one super survives, we can not say the combo isn't lethal. Also, explain why people do not breed spider to spider or pin to pin? Who cares if the visual would look any different, if you had a male that threw all pinstripe and was a super pastel to boot, you'd ALWAYS throw lemonblasts. People would make them if they could, but they cant. The proof? Look at the lack of evidence that they can. We have to speculate from here.

Nobody breeds them to make the super pin because if it does exist, which some claim to have done it, it would look no different. In that case, you'd have to prove it's a super by breeding trials which would take a lot of time to prove out. Nobody cares that's why it isn't done.

I know of BHB's "super" pin. If it DID survive and produced offspring then yes we can speculate that it can survive and that there is a "super pin". If it's lethal it would die in the egg. Which no one has claimed to have roughly 25% of their eggs die all the time when pin x pin. Also, it's hard to make this claim as well because sometimes eggs just die and we can only speculate it was a super.

I'll go searching for the super spider egg thing. I could be wrong though and confusing it with womas. It never lived though beyond a day or something.


Yes, mutation names are a pet peeve of mine ;)

[Aaron_S]

Lethal Ball Python combos Part 2 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fhnR5YdGdI) watch this to learn more on lethal combos in ball python.

Too bad it's McCurly in the video. One of the shadiest people out there.

My favourite part about that video is Raphy mentions at the start "You need to know about the negative aspects". He hid the wobble for a long time until he couldn't anymore.

[lady_bug87]

I told you you can have a lesson whenever! Coffee would suffice instead of dinner :P

They die, for unknown reasons. It's on a genetic level. For whatever reason to gene expressed twice in the same animal somehow makes them less "hardy". There may be some explanation but I have yet to read it and would be most curious.

What makes the super is the expression of the two genes in the same animal at once. So take mojaves for example. When expressed as the incomplete dominant (or co-dom for most people) they show the morph as we know it. When bred together we produce a white snake. That's the "super form". What confuses other people more is that there are other genes that reside on the same allele. They look different on the incomplete dominant level but when bred to another one they produce the same "super form". In this instance we can take mojave breed it to a lesser and make white snakes.

Also, if anyone doesn't know alleles. Think of it as genetic trees. If you have a gene on the same tree but just a different branch (different colour/pattern) they will produce the same or very similar "super" forms.

Ohhh that's why a cinamon x cinamon = super cinamon which is an all black? Snake...? Because it has 2 sets if the cinamon gene which makes the offspring black?

So Mojave x Mojave = a blue eyed leucy right? Which means that a Mojave X a lesser makes an ivory?

My head hurts. And I don't drink coffee...

[reptileexperts]

Mojave x Lesser or x Butter or X Russo = Blue eyed Lucy, they are from the same Blue Eyed Lucy Complex (Russo is actually called White Diamond)

Yellow Belly x Yellow Belly = Ivory

PlattyxPlatty in retics = Ivory
Fire x Fire in retics (bob clark platty) = Ultra Ivory or Black eyed lucy

Just to keep retic genetics in this to stay on topic ;-)

[reptileexperts]

oh and Fire x Fire in ball pythons = Black eyed Lucy just to throw that in there

[lady_bug87]

Mojave x Lesser or x Butter or X Russo = Blue eyed Lucy, they are from the same Blue Eyed Lucy Complex (Russo is actually called White Diamond)

Yellow Belly x Yellow Belly = Ivory

PlattyxPlatty in retics = Ivory
Fire x Fire in retics (bob clark platty) = Ultra Ivory or Black eyed lucy

Just to keep retic genetics in this to stay on topic ;-)

So 2 mojaves cannot make a blue eyed leucy? I thought BELs were "super mojaves"

[Aaron_S]

So 2 mojaves cannot make a blue eyed leucy? I thought BELs were "super mojaves"

He just meant any of them combined. There's also other genes that work in there too. The mystic/phantom/specials. It's a pretty big complex.

[lady_bug87]

Yea I may need that lesson after all....

Maybe I should start another thread I kind of hijacked this one....

But no need to stop now I guess (Wayne, Alesia you can move this to a new thread if you want I'm just too lazy to start another one)

So I have a normal male, he was sold to me AS a normal male no hets or anything but he's greenish. When I asked a breeder about it he said my normal *could* be the result of a clutch with other morphs in it which would mean it would be het for a gene that other siblings in his clutch would have been visual representations of... Right?

The only way to tell for sure would be to breed him out. But not knowing what he could be shmushed with how would I decide what to breed him to? (I'm not actually going to breed him I'm just working through a mental exercise) and then see what pops out

[millertime89]

Fire and platinum are the same thing in retics, its just Bob giving his "line" a different name. They both can produce Ivories, Ultras, and Leucies, but you're more likely to get an Ultra or Leucy from an Ivory x Ivory or Ivory x Platinum pairing.

[Aaron_S]

Yea I may need that lesson after all....

Maybe I should start another thread I kind of hijacked this one....

But no need to stop now I guess (Wayne, Alesia you can move this to a new thread if you want I'm just too lazy to start another one)

So I have a normal male, he was sold to me AS a normal male no hets or anything but he's greenish. When I asked a breeder about it he said my normal *could* be the result of a clutch with other morphs in it which would mean it would be het for a gene that other siblings in his clutch would have been visual representations of... Right?

The only way to tell for sure would be to breed him out. But not knowing what he could be shmushed with how would I decide what to breed him to? (I'm not actually going to breed him I'm just working through a mental exercise) and then see what pops out

It's rather difficult to say. Personally, I believe it's just a normal with a different hue to him. If you look at a group of normals you'll see many variances in pattern and colour. It happens.

At one time, morphs, in particular pastels and the like, were priced on grading. Even though they produce the same stuff.

You'd need to track down the breeding lineage a bit more. I know of a lot of het males that get sold as normals.

[Aaron_S]

Fire and platinum are the same thing in retics, its just Bob giving his "line" a different name. They both can produce Ivories, Ultras, and Leucies, but you're more likely to get an Ultra or Leucy from an Ivory x Ivory or Ivory x Platinum pairing.

Another pet peeve of mine. HATE when people give their own lines brand new names. There's at least 3 yellowbelly lines. The "yellowbelly", the "bling" and the "goblin". Oi vey.

[lady_bug87]

mykee took a look at some pictures and said he was just a nice looking normal which is fine I guess... I got him from big al's so who knows who hatched him...

[Aaron_S]

mykee took a look at some pictures and said he was just a nice looking normal which is fine I guess... I got him from big al's so who knows who hatched him...

In our neck of the woods. There's a few breeders who wholesale to them.

[millertime89]

Yea I may need that lesson after all....

Maybe I should start another thread I kind of hijacked this one....

But no need to stop now I guess (Wayne, Alesia you can move this to a new thread if you want I'm just too lazy to start another one)

So I have a normal male, he was sold to me AS a normal male no hets or anything but he's greenish. When I asked a breeder about it he said my normal *could* be the result of a clutch with other morphs in it which would mean it would be het for a gene that other siblings in his clutch would have been visual representations of... Right?

The only way to tell for sure would be to breed him out. But not knowing what he could be shmushed with how would I decide what to breed him to? (I'm not actually going to breed him I'm just working through a mental exercise) and then see what pops out

Normal what? BP? Boa? It could be a het, depending on what it's parents are, but without knowing what the parents are and without a massive breeding project and/or some serious luck there's no real way of knowing. Without knowing the parents its a total crapshoot what to breed it to.

If you have a het bred to a het you *should* get 25% of the offspring visuals, 50% hets, and 25% normals. The real problem there is you don't know which of the non-visual babies are hets, which is why you see possible hets (het to het makes 66% poss. het) listed for sale. The percents are fun to try and figure out.

[lady_bug87]

... I doubt I can call him and be like "hey, remember in 2009 when you hatched a clutch of BPs and then got rid of a bunch of normals to Big Al's? is mine a het? Great thanks awesome"

so I guess I will never know

[reptileexperts]

He just meant any of them combined. There's also other genes that work in there too. The mystic/phantom/specials. It's a pretty big complex.

Yep, exactly I did mean Mojave x Mojave would work.

And Aaron, I'm sorry but Mystic? Phantom? Specials? You're not implying that they are a BEL complex eh? These are all potion complexes. . . Mystic Potion, Purple Passions, etc. etc.

Sorry wanted to get clarified on this.

[lady_bug87]

Normal what? BP? Boa? It could be a het, depending on what it's parents are, but without knowing what the parents are and without a massive breeding project and/or some serious luck there's no real way of knowing. Without knowing the parents its a total crapshoot what to breed it to.

If you have a het bred to a het you *should* get 25% of the offspring visuals, 50% hets, and 25% normals. The real problem there is you don't know which of the non-visual babies are hets, which is why you see possible hets (het to het makes 66% poss. het) listed for sale. The percents are fun to try and figure out.

Yea its my BP

Thanks Kyle. I am not set up for such a project though he's just my cooky BP I was using him as a thought experiment to test my understanding of how hets work

[reptileexperts]

@Lady, a lot of breeders who are "not known" will not even bother listing hets as anything other than normal because most people only buy Hets from trusted breeders. 66% Hets the same unless it's something big and from a well known breeder. So there is always a chance its het for something ;-) but only multiple generations of line breeding could prove it out. Best to just enjoy it as a normal unless the genetics geek wants to shine!

[reptileexperts]

The real problem there is you don't know which of the non-visual babies are hets, which is why you see possible hets (het to het makes 66% poss. het) listed for sale. The percents are fun to try and figure out.

read my previous post about hets ;-)

[lady_bug87]

@Lady, a lot of breeders who are "not known" will not even bother listing hets as anything other than normal because most people only buy Hets from trusted breeders. 66% Hets the same unless it's something big and from a well known breeder. So there is always a chance its het for something ;-) but only multiple generations of line breeding could prove it out. Best to just enjoy it as a normal unless the genetics geek wants to shine!

I am really interested in genetics, I just cant easily grasp them. The only snake of mine I considered breeding would be either my BCI or my ATB

[millertime89]

Ah, yeah if the breeder whole sold him then he's most likely just a possible het for something or a normal (if he was the non-visual sibling to a co-dom or dom breeding). Sometimes co-dom/dom siblings show some of the visual traits of their siblings but don't actually carry the gene. I don't know of any BPs that have this, but there are Jaguar sibling carpets which look a bit different, and Sunfire sibling retics, and I'm sure there are more.

[Aaron_S]

Yep, exactly I did mean Mojave x Mojave would work.

And Aaron, I'm sorry but Mystic? Phantom? Specials? You're not implying that they are a BEL complex eh? These are all potion complexes. . . Mystic Potion, Purple Passions, etc. etc.

Sorry wanted to get clarified on this.

They're close. The potion complex is related to the BluEL complex. Reason being is that the potions are "super" forms. I'd say sisters.

[millertime89]

read my previous post about hets ;-)

the one below?

@Lady, a lot of breeders who are "not known" will not even bother listing hets as anything other than normal because most people only buy Hets from trusted breeders. 66% Hets the same unless it's something big and from a well known breeder. So there is always a chance its het for something ;-) but only multiple generations of line breeding could prove it out. Best to just enjoy it as a normal unless the genetics geek wants to shine!

Really? Most breeders, even the little guys, I've seen/spoken with always sell poss hets as poss hets, sometimes at a discounted price or in a group just to get them sold. I dunno, just my observation.

[Aaron_S]

the one below?



Really? Most breeders, even the little guys, I've seen/spoken with always sell poss hets as poss hets, sometimes at a discounted price or in a group just to get them sold. I dunno, just my observation.

Waste of time. It's called wholesale normals.

In the ball world that is.

I never had problems selling hets when starting out. 100% with paperwork. All it takes.

[reptileexperts]

most of the time people refer to Jaguar Siblings its there way of telling you its not a pure snake:

IJ JAG SIBLING!! translates to: Non morph mut Irian Jaya x Coastal

They look different because of the crosses. No gene, no difference :-) Hets can be visual hets, see prior discussions about pieds and markers. Also Het Red in ball pythons are quite distinct, and even react with other genes.

@Bug: If you just want to play with genetics on the cheap get the fruit flies, they have a few different mutations you can get, they are cheap, breed quick and easy, and you can see genetics in good numbers to show transfer percentages and all that :-)

[reptileexperts]

They all make potions with Mojaves, but its a different complex. It's not a BEL. . . come come now! :)

[Aaron_S]

They all make potions with Mojaves, but its a different complex. It's not a BEL. . . come come now! :)

I said related. The fact they make a super makes them related. Means they lie somewhere upon the same allele.

With the lesser they make WHITE snakes. How is that not related or in the same complex?

[reptileexperts]

Just because two different set of complexes can react to eachother to make sweet combos does not put the complexes the same - it puts them as compatibile.

[Aaron_S]

Just because two different set of complexes can react to eachother to make sweet combos does not put the complexes the same - it puts them as compatibile.

Which means they are related...

[millertime89]

Now that you guys are talking about genes and their location on alleles I'm out of my knowledge zone.

[reptileexperts]

*head to keyboard* They are related only to the fact the genes are compatible. But do not say they are related directly to the BEL complex because they in themselves can not create a Blue eyed lucy with eachother or Mojavee or Lesser or what not :-P

[reptileexperts]

We can say they are geographically related on a chromosome ;-) how about that, a compromise?

[Aaron_S]

*head to keyboard* They are related only to the fact the genes are compatible. But do not say they are related directly to the BEL complex because they in themselves can not create a Blue eyed lucy with eachother or Mojavee or Lesser or what not :-P

Uhh...here's the lesser x phantom. a BLUE EYED LEUCY! So yes they do create what you say they cannot.

Karma - Morph List - World of Ball Pythons (http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/karma/)

[reptileexperts]

That's interesting . . . I did almost all the cross in WOB haha didn't cross that one though . . . irony the name is Karma as well. . . guess it was the unlikely result of a potion generator. . . SO then why, can we hypothesis, if this is the case, does Mojave x Phantom produce different results? ? ? We know Mojave and Lesser are located at the same Loci . . .

Genetic Wizard - World of Ball Pythons (http://www.worldofballpythons.com/wizard/&male=73&female=82)

[Aaron_S]

That's interesting . . . I did almost all the cross in WOB haha didn't cross that one though . . . irony the name is Karma as well. . . guess it was the unlikely result of a potion generator. . . SO then why, can we hypothesis, if this is the case, does Mojave x Phantom produce different results? ? ? We know Mojave and Lesser are located at the same Loci . . .

Genetic Wizard - World of Ball Pythons (http://www.worldofballpythons.com/wizard/&male=73&female=82)

To be honest. No freaking clue.

The only thing I can get is that the super mojave has a "dirty" purple head. It isn't entirely white. Unlike the lesser.

The potions are solid colour, usually whitening up the sides with a purple back and yellow dorsal stripe. Maybe it's a "weaker" gene.

[millertime89]

The World sites aren't exactly the best resources. They're a good starting point for sure but they get a lot wrong.

[Aaron_S]

The World sites aren't exactly the best resources. They're a good starting point for sure but they get a lot wrong.

They give a really solid starting point. Since Ralph first proved the lesser and the phantom I am inclined to believe this breeding.

[reptileexperts]

Yeah, I agree I trust the breeding result, I question our understanding now... Mojave super do make uglier BEL and can produce BUGEYES - eek. However, Mojave x Lesser tend to make great BEL as do the White Diamond Russo line (not a spot on those guys usually). But if we want to talk about Lesser, I'm going to now refer to it as Butter to keep it fresh but the same ;-)

[Aaron_S]

Yeah, I agree I trust the breeding result, I question our understanding now... Mojave super do make uglier BEL and can produce BUGEYES - eek. However, Mojave x Lesser tend to make great BEL as do the White Diamond Russo line (not a spot on those guys usually). But if we want to talk about Lesser, I'm going to now refer to it as Butter to keep it fresh but the same ;-)

Well butter/lesser is just confusing. I guess we wait for more breedings. I'd like to see the lesser special. I don't think it's been done. Could be wrong.

[reptileexperts]

There are pairing records of that in morph calculator? Makes Lesser Crystals according to the generator :-P

[Aaron_S]

There are pairing records of that in morph calculator? Makes Lesser Crystals according to the generator :-P

I looked. It isn't all white. It's a cystal looking thing. Definitely tells us that even though they are close that they still are different.

Lesser Crystal - Morph List - World of Ball Pythons (http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/lesser-crystal/)

[reptileexperts]

And the condundrum continues. But that still does not answer the question of how Albino x normal --> then Albino x het from previous ---> all three types of albino??

[Gungirl]

Love reading this thread.. although it made my head spin!

[reptileexperts]

. I was able to breed it a few months later. I raised a group of the resulting heterozygous offspring and bred these retics to produce the first captive-born albino retics in 1999 - - From Bob Clarks Article.

If he's referring to the fact he bred the hets back together, this would easily explain why visually he was able to see all three across the board since his original male was a Lavander. :-)

[Aaron_S]

. I was able to breed it a few months later. I raised a group of the resulting heterozygous offspring and bred these retics to produce the first captive-born albino retics in 1999 - - From Bob Clarks Article.

If he's referring to the fact he bred the hets back together, this would easily explain why visually he was able to see all three across the board since his original male was a Lavander. :-)

I thought it was only the white that produced all three? He of course bred het to het as well as daddy to daughter I'm sure.

[reptileexperts]

wait a second . . . nope that doesn't explain it! Het to Het breeding would result in only ONE type of Visual Albino:

Ww x Pp = wp - lavander as the only result, no ww or pp . . . So again, dad was lavander and bred back to the het offspring, perhaps he was seeing all three across all the clutches of off spring from the hets bred back to dad? So in which case:

WP x Pp = WP and PP
WP X Ww = WW and WP

So across two clutches by breeding hets you can produce all three. The article is very vague. I'll email one of his workers tonight and ask him if he can clarify this information with Bob :-)

[reptileexperts]

No, Lavander x Lavander produces all three . .. if its white that produces all three I'm mentally messed up at this point!!! He thought it was a white when he originally imported it, but "found it to be a pleasent lavander base"

[Aaron_S]

wait a second . . . nope that doesn't explain it! Het to Het breeding would result in only ONE type of Visual Albino:

Ww x Pp = wp - lavander as the only result, no ww or pp . . . So again, dad was lavander and bred back to the het offspring, perhaps he was seeing all three across all the clutches of off spring from the hets bred back to dad? So in which case:

WP x Pp = WP and PP
WP X Ww = WW and WP

So across two clutches by breeding hets you can produce all three. The article is very vague. I'll email one of his workers tonight and ask him if he can clarify this information with Bob :-)

Yes the article is vague so we can only speculate upon it really. I hope Bob's people can help us.

[reptileexperts]

~ I was shocked and pleased to see that the white areas (the black pattern of a normal-colored retic) were instead a pleasing lavender color. The eyes were orange with red pupils.

Bob Clark.

*whew* I haven't been working too hard.

[lady_bug87]

Love reading this thread.. although it made my head spin!

Pfft you're telling me!

[Aaron_S]

~ I was shocked and pleased to see that the white areas (the black pattern of a normal-colored retic) were instead a pleasing lavender color. The eyes were orange with red pupils.

Bob Clark.

*whew* I haven't been working too hard.

So tell me again how the three strains work?

[reptileexperts]

White x White = White
Purple x Purple = Purple
Lav x Lav = All three
White x Purple = Lav
Purple x Lav = Purple and Lav
White x lav = white and Lav

So the original being a Lav - wp for helpful purpose - makes all this possible. Had the original been a purple, we'd only have purples till new genes were found :-) Emailed one of Bobs employees, fingers crossed he knows the answer to bobs vagueness.

[Squirtle]

Yea I may need that lesson after all....

Maybe I should start another thread I kind of hijacked this one....

But no need to stop now I guess (Wayne, Alesia you can move this to a new thread if you want I'm just too lazy to start another one)

So I have a normal male, he was sold to me AS a normal male no hets or anything but he's greenish. When I asked a breeder about it he said my normal *could* be the result of a clutch with other morphs in it which would mean it would be het for a gene that other siblings in his clutch would have been visual representations of... Right?

The only way to tell for sure would be to breed him out. But not knowing what he could be shmushed with how would I decide what to breed him to? (I'm not actually going to breed him I'm just working through a mental exercise) and then see what pops out
No, it's completely fine. I actually learned a few things in this thread! I have a question though: Do you guys know why purple albino retics are more expensive than lavender albinos if lavender x lavender produce all three? Whereas purple x purple only makes purples.

[Aaron_S]

No, it's completely fine. I actually learned a few things in this thread! I have a question though: Do you guys know why purple albino retics are more expensive than lavender albinos if lavender x lavender produce all three? Whereas purple x purple only makes purples.

The look. People probably prefer it.

[reptileexperts]

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8485/8218007094_9dcfa70a9c_c.jpg
mmmm purple. Yep my purple cost a good chunk more than a white and a wee bit more than a Lavender. But it's also a female, and a dwarf making the price go up more. . . still smexy!

[millertime89]

While I love purple, IMO nothing beats an awesome white headed Lav!
This is Miss Lavender, owned by Harry Wessels.
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/558667_4238031705507_2007853425_n.jpg

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/397815_2838693522927_2083562870_n.jpg

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/378047_2785500873144_626054436_n.jpg

Also, here's a vid for you guys from Kevin at NERD about lethal ball python combos.
Lethal Ball Python Combos Part 1 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uStCAKMbnqQ&feature=g-high)

[lady_bug87]

Beautiful... If only they weren't muster sized...

[reptileexperts]

Lol miller - I posted the other half of that video earlier. And yes, part of retics beauty is in their size, but not always. I'm really enjoying working with the Dwarf populations :-)