Are ATB's handle-able?

[Pareeeee]

I don't really know much about ATB's, but they are such gorgeous snakes! I would like to own one some day (when I have more room/money!) if they are handle-able. I can't see me ever owning a snake that I couldn't handle. One reason I would never even consider hots, lol.

Can you tame them, with persistence? Or are they easily stressed? I'm not really afraid of being bitten, but being bitten all the time would be a turn-off.

[StudentoReptile]

At best, some specimens can TOLERATE occasional handling, but I would not expect any ATB to ever be as handleable as a ball python or a cornsnake.

[BarelyBreathing]

They're more of a display animal, but yes, you can handle them occasionally (if you don't mind a bite or twelve).

[Charis]

I've heard that they are usually fairly bitey and more of a display snake. But since I've also been thinking about getting one at some point and have been asking around, one of the breeders I've been talking to has said that all of the babies from one of her really nice females are puppy dog tame and she's heard from their new owners that they often hang out and watch tv with them. So it's possible to find a tame one but might require a search.

[Jay]

Sure are. Most of the time they miss anyways, and when they do land one it won even phase you.

[Jason_Hood]

In reality, captive born ATBs are just fine. I have a fairly large group and only two of mine are certain biters with another two never biting. The remaining 14-15 of them rarely if ever bite but there are some simply things that I do that keep that from happening. For one I do not put them in drawers past their first 6 months to a year. When kept in opaque caging they only see movement when there is a stress related activity like cleaning or handling or even feeding.

I use glass front cages and I do not screw in or strongly secure any branches. Instead I have them all easy to access and easy to remove while still being strongly braced in the cage to keep from falling. I do not fight with the snakes to get their tail unwrapped if they have it around a branch. The tail is a part of the snake that all snakes are sensitive about, ATB are particularly so. One of the best ways to illicit a strike is by messing with their tail. If I see the snakes are easy to remove from the enclosure I will take them out for short handling sessions.

For handling rule one is keep it short. ATB's can easily handle a short 5 minute handling and possibly 10 minutes but beyond that they lose patience. Don't wave your hands or anyone else's hands in their face. I pick them up from directly above and hold them under their bodies without restraining them. Restrict their movement and you might get tagged, instead I redirect them as needed while allowing them to crawl. They tend to tail wrap your arm and sit for the most part.

I have faith in all but the two biters around my head and face and freely let them crawl up if they choose to. So yes you can easily handle ATB's with proper technique and by following their rules. CB animals are far more tractable and even some WC are as well. Buy from an actual breeder and ask for the calmest baby they have. Do your homework and be patient for the right animal.

Jason

[Rogue628]

Aren't they a bit fragile when young?

[lady_bug87]

Mine will tolerate it but he will try and chew your face off at first

[Aaron_S]

The short answer: not really.

[lady_bug87]

The short answer: not really.

I dont think arboreal speacies 'should' be handled all that often or for very long

[Aaron_S]

I dont think arboreal speacies 'should' be handled all that often or for very long

I concur. If I want to handle a snake I get out terrestrial ones. I find aboreal snakes to be too fragile.

[lady_bug87]

Its the prehensile tail. you have to watch how you move them around since if you screw that up you've pretty much killed the animal since a lot of them won't re-learn how to eat

edit: arboreal snakes tend to eat upside down hanging from the prehensile tail. If the tail is damaged it will no longer support the weight of the animal therefore the animal will not be able to eat properly

[SSSSnakes]

I keep many ATB's and I have some that are very handle-able. If you get them as captive bred babies and handle them, they will settle down. Wild caughts are almost always nasty. I keep and breed them and if handled gently, they are OK.

[Aaron_S]

I think Paris is looking for something that can be handled like a corn or a ball. That's what I gathered from the post.

Personally, I'd look at other species. It's generally the exception and not the rule for handability with this species.

[SSSSnakes]

I will state again, with my ATB babies that I have bred, they are handle-able like a corn snake.

[lady_bug87]

When it comes to arboreals I am of the mind that just because you can doesn't mean you should

[Aaron_S]

I will state again, with my ATB babies that I have bred, they are handle-able like a corn snake.

I'm not doubting you.

I mentioned the species on a whole. Yours go against the general rule.

[SSSSnakes]

I'm not doubting you.

I mentioned the species on a whole. Yours go against the general rule.

That, I agree with you. But I think that in the past most ATB's were wild caughts, which are normally aggressive. But more people are captive breeding them and those babies are calmer.

[Aaron_S]

That, I agree with you. But I think that in the past most ATB's were wild caughts, which are normally aggressive. But more people are captive breeding them and those babies are calmer.

Yes, this does tend to happen.

The problem I have with that statement is everybody says it about every species we breed in captivity. Bloods are more docile but still chainsaws a lot of the time, same with ATB's. Some snakes just don't wish to be docile.

I hope you continue to produce ones that do though. I wouldn't go near them though lol. Too many memories.

[Rogue628]

Its the prehensile tail. you have to watch how you move them around since if you screw that up you've pretty much killed the animal since a lot of them won't re-learn how to eat

edit: arboreal snakes tend to eat upside down hanging from the prehensile tail. If the tail is damaged it will no longer support the weight of the animal therefore the animal will not be able to eat properly


Then I was somewhat right. I heard they were fragile but I thought it was only while they were young.

[Jason_Hood]

What I find amazing about this hobby is how many people will give answers to questions based off second hand or very little first hand knowledge. I have kept and bred numerous ATBs and far more of them are docile than are aggressive. So either I have the best luck in the world or most of you have no real first hand knowledge of what you are talking about.

I see this all the time with ATBs, 90% of the comments are about them being aggressive but in reading or looking closer at the people commenting most of those people have never owned a CAPTIVE BORN ATB.

WC snakes are handled horribly and ATBs get some of the most aggressive handling going through the import process. One of the two that I have that do bite is a WC one that came in with noose marks on it's neck. If I touch it at all it bites, when I have to restrain it, it freaks out when I go near it's neck. This is the behavior that people talk about. If you try to restrain an ATB they will bite, that is very simple. If you repeatedly restrain their heads by pinning they will bite any chance they get. If you handle them correctly from a young age they have no reason to associate you with fear or danger or stress.

And like Shane I have captive bred a ton of ATB's the last couple years (around 60) and the rule on them is snappy for the first few months and calm by one year old. I have more than a few people that have pics of my snakes climbing on their faces like a corn snake.

Jason

[millertime89]

Three of my herp friends locally breed ATBs and most (not all) of their CBB babies tolerate handling pretty well. One is on this bored, Mose, and his last batch of babies I was just over to check out with my good friend who is getting one (for sure one anyways) and the babies behaved better than the parents. Mark also has two large adult green gardens that are very accepting of handling, never met a pair of ATBs that are more ok with it, that said I've only met about 2 dozen.

(how do you like my scraggly beard?)
http://www.1320video.com/img/album345/IMG_0941.sized.jpg

http://www.1320video.com/img/album345/IMG_0953.sized.jpg

those are the two greens and here's one of his gardens
http://www.1320video.com/img/album345/IMG_0946.sized.jpg

Smuckers here on the other hand has the "traditional" ATB 'tude.

[millertime89]

the rule on them is snappy for the first few months and calm by one year old.
Jason

So like most other baby arboreal or semi-arboreal snakes...

[lady_bug87]

What I find amazing about this hobby is how many people will give answers to questions based off second hand or very little first hand knowledge. I have kept and bred numerous ATBs and far more of them are docile than are aggressive. So either I have the best luck in the world or most of you have no real first hand knowledge of what you are talking about.

I see this all the time with ATBs, 90% of the comments are about them being aggressive but in reading or looking closer at the people commenting most of those people have never owned a CAPTIVE BORN ATB.

WC snakes are handled horribly and ATBs get some of the most aggressive handling going through the import process. One of the two that I have that do bite is a WC one that came in with noose marks on it's neck. If I touch it at all it bites, when I have to restrain it, it freaks out when I go near it's neck. This is the behavior that people talk about. If you try to restrain an ATB they will bite, that is very simple. If you repeatedly restrain their heads by pinning they will bite any chance they get. If you handle them correctly from a young age they have no reason to associate you with fear or danger or stress.

And like Shane I have captive bred a ton of ATB's the last couple years (around 60) and the rule on them is snappy for the first few months and calm by one year old. I have more than a few people that have pics of my snakes climbing on their faces like a corn snake.

Jason

Hey, chill out.

no one is discrediting you, put the flame gun back in your holster

[Aaron_S]

What I find amazing about this hobby is how many people will give answers to questions based off second hand or very little first hand knowledge. I have kept and bred numerous ATBs and far more of them are docile than are aggressive. So either I have the best luck in the world or most of you have no real first hand knowledge of what you are talking about.

I see this all the time with ATBs, 90% of the comments are about them being aggressive but in reading or looking closer at the people commenting most of those people have never owned a CAPTIVE BORN ATB.

WC snakes are handled horribly and ATBs get some of the most aggressive handling going through the import process. One of the two that I have that do bite is a WC one that came in with noose marks on it's neck. If I touch it at all it bites, when I have to restrain it, it freaks out when I go near it's neck. This is the behavior that people talk about. If you try to restrain an ATB they will bite, that is very simple. If you repeatedly restrain their heads by pinning they will bite any chance they get. If you handle them correctly from a young age they have no reason to associate you with fear or danger or stress.

And like Shane I have captive bred a ton of ATB's the last couple years (around 60) and the rule on them is snappy for the first few months and calm by one year old. I have more than a few people that have pics of my snakes climbing on their faces like a corn snake.

Jason

I get what you're saying but you honestly no nothing of my experiences. Yes, I've worked with ATB's in the past. I know about them.

Here's a picture with my ex's when she bought them at a show. These are just a couple of the ATB's I've had experience with.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/godzilla99/mesnake2.jpg

I still rather say that tractable ATB's are still the exception and not the rule. Let me put it this way, a corn snake or ball python are pretty docile even from the wild. ATB's are not. It is the exception and not the rule.

[asnakelovinbabe]

My two ATB's are entirely handleable and have never offered to bite me. But I still don't handle them unless I am taking photos or cleaning. There are a LOT of ATB's that will bite and one should never ever expect them to be any different.

[poison123]

My ATB is CB but very aggressive but i never really handled her do to being told they shouldn't be handled.

[SSSSnakes]

What I find amazing about this hobby is how many people will give answers to questions based off second hand or very little first hand knowledge. I have kept and bred numerous ATBs and far more of them are docile than are aggressive. So either I have the best luck in the world or most of you have no real first hand knowledge of what you are talking about.

I see this all the time with ATBs, 90% of the comments are about them being aggressive but in reading or looking closer at the people commenting most of those people have never owned a CAPTIVE BORN ATB.

WC snakes are handled horribly and ATBs get some of the most aggressive handling going through the import process. One of the two that I have that do bite is a WC one that came in with noose marks on it's neck. If I touch it at all it bites, when I have to restrain it, it freaks out when I go near it's neck. This is the behavior that people talk about. If you try to restrain an ATB they will bite, that is very simple. If you repeatedly restrain their heads by pinning they will bite any chance they get. If you handle them correctly from a young age they have no reason to associate you with fear or danger or stress.

And like Shane I have captive bred a ton of ATB's the last couple years (around 60) and the rule on them is snappy for the first few months and calm by one year old. I have more than a few people that have pics of my snakes climbing on their faces like a corn snake.

Jason

Hi Jason, it's Jerry from "AA", AKA Christiankeeper. Great post. Even though you are a respected and dedicated ATB keeper for many years, I don't think some people believe what experience keepers have to say. They believe what the majority of the people say. Not even Dr. Henderson could make them change their minds.

[lady_bug87]

Hi Jason, it's Jerry from "AA", AKA Christiankeeper. Great post. Even though you are a respected and dedicated ATB keeper for many years, I don't think some people believe what experience keepers have to say. They believe what the majority of the people say. Not even Dr. Henderson could make them change their minds.

I think that may be just a little uncalled for.

I believe him. I just don't share the same experience. Why is his experience any more credible than mine? Yes he has more years and more specimens to consider but its generally accepted that defensiveness is dependent on the individual specimen (at least I believe it is)

Mine does not tolerate handling without biting. However most will use the same argument with GTPs and mine is 'docile' and has never bitten anyone nor has she made any attempt.

I do stand by my statement, however that neonates are especially delicate due to the prehensile tail which you are more than welcome to dispute.

[Pareeeee]

What about Morelia carinata? They have a similar look to them but I've heard they are more handleable. Although I have never even once seen one for sale in my neck of the woods...

[Corey209]

I have a very tame ATB I can handle every day if I wanted without being bit. He doesn't like being taken out of his cage but he still won't strike while getting him out. While handling him you have to be careful of your fingers though, if you wave one in front of his face (eg. typing while he's in your hand) he will strike but usually settles down.

[Jason_Hood]

I think that may be just a little uncalled for.

I believe him. I just don't share the same experience. Why is his experience any more credible than mine? Yes he has more years and more specimens to consider but its generally accepted that defensiveness is dependent on the individual specimen (at least I believe it is)

Mine does not tolerate handling without biting. However most will use the same argument with GTPs and mine is 'docile' and has never bitten anyone nor has she made any attempt.

I do stand by my statement, however that neonates are especially delicate due to the prehensile tail which you are more than welcome to dispute.


When I see people talking about ATBs and calling them aggressive while having no real experience with them I see it as the herp community version of when a non snake person tells me some BS story about snakes that they have never seen. Any reptile person should be able to identify with that. Falsehoods spoken out of ignorance are still falsehoods. I have produced around 100 CBB ATBs in my breeding career and far more of them have been placid than not. That is my personal first hand experience which happens to be backed up by quite a few people in this thread.

In dealing with WC ATBs I have found them to bite slightly more often but with proper handling they are fine for the most part. What is the exception to the real world rule is that ATBs are bitey, the norm for them is actually the opposite. This is spoken with the authority of someone who has around 50 in my possession right now and who has had a few hundred pass through my hands both WC, CB, and CBB.

If you somehow find that statement as offensive or flaming then maybe you should look at what you are saying. You are saying a group of animals I care for deeply are "biters" which is to say they are dangerous. The fact that it is one species in particular as opposed to all snakes does not matter to me. You are in fact passing along the same fear mongering that outsiders claim on all snakes to one species. To a non snake person who encounters a wild corn snake, they are biters because a wild corn picked up the wrong way will in fact bite you but we all know from personal experience that corns are in fact quite placid. What I am telling you from my vastly greater experience with ATB's is that they are also not really aggressive and I will stand behind that 100%. There are simple rules to handling them and they are on a whole easy to deal with but I will agree that there are a few in the mix that are biters but guess what, the same is true of corns snakes!

Jason

[MoreliAddict]

@Pareeeee

If you're set on ATBs, go to a reptile show and handle a bunch of them. Pick out a calm one.

Same can be done for GTPs...

[Will0W783]

They can be handleable, although it can stress them. I have owned four GTPs and 2 ETBs (both species thought to be "aggressive"), and all of them were perfectly tame. You have to approach arboreal snakes differently than you do terrestrial ones. Never approach an arboreal from above- their only natural predators come down on them from above, so they instinctively defend themselves from aerial attack.

I have found that using removable perches (such as scorched PVC) makes things much easier. I just remove the perch with the snake on it, and let the snake crawl off onto my arms.

[lady_bug87]

When I see people talking about ATBs and calling them aggressive while having no real experience with them I see it as the herp community version of when a non snake person tells me some BS story about snakes that they have never seen. Any reptile person should be able to identify with that. Falsehoods spoken out of ignorance are still falsehoods. I have produced around 100 CBB ATBs in my breeding career and far more of them have been placid than not. That is my personal first hand experience which happens to be backed up by quite a few people in this thread.

In dealing with WC ATBs I have found them to bite slightly more often but with proper handling they are fine for the most part. What is the exception to the real world rule is that ATBs are bitey, the norm for them is actually the opposite. This is spoken with the authority of someone who has around 50 in my possession right now and who has had a few hundred pass through my hands both WC, CB, and CBB.

If you somehow find that statement as offensive or flaming then maybe you should look at what you are saying. You are saying a group of animals I care for deeply are "biters" which is to say they are dangerous. The fact that it is one species in particular as opposed to all snakes does not matter to me. You are in fact passing along the same fear mongering that outsiders claim on all snakes to one species. To a non snake person who encounters a wild corn snake, they are biters because a wild corn picked up the wrong way will in fact bite you but we all know from personal experience that corns are in fact quite placid. What I am telling you from my vastly greater experience with ATB's is that they are also not really aggressive and I will stand behind that 100%. There are simple rules to handling them and they are on a whole easy to deal with but I will agree that there are a few in the mix that are biters but guess what, the same is true of corns snakes!

Jason

That's exactly my point. I respect what you're sayng I never said they all intact I specifically said my own happens to be a biter. I still love keeping him and will hopefully add another to my collection

[Corey209]

They can be handleable, although it can stress them. I have owned four GTPs and 2 ETBs (both species thought to be "aggressive"), and all of them were perfectly tame. You have to approach arboreal snakes differently than you do terrestrial ones. Never approach an arboreal from above- their only natural predators come down on them from above, so they instinctively defend themselves from aerial attack.

I have found that using removable perches (such as scorched PVC) makes things much easier. I just remove the perch with the snake on it, and let the snake crawl off onto my arms.

Amazons eat normally while hanging down waiting for a prey to pass by, I grab mine from above every time because I can't get him out from the front. Amazons also like crossed branches like a X, not straight pvc.

[SSSSnakes]

Amazons eat normally while hanging down waiting for a prey to pass by, I grab mine from above every time because I can't get him out from the front. Amazons also like crossed branches like a X, not straight pvc.

ATB's need 3 points of contact to perch properly. They do not coil over a branch like most arboreal snakes do.

[Rogue628]

Jerry, what do you mean by 3 points of contact? 3 different perches?

[SSSSnakes]

@Pareeeee

If you're set on ATBs, go to a reptile show and handle a bunch of them. Pick out a calm one.

Same can be done for GTPs...

Be careful about trying to see if the snake is handle-able at a reptile expo. At the expo, the temps are normally cooler than you would normally keep the snake at. This sometimes make the snake more docile and slower. Then when you get the snake home and warm it up, you find it's real temperament.

[Corey209]

ATB's need 3 points of contact to perch properly. They do not coil over a branch like most arboreal snakes do.

The preferred branch set up is the X, I never said they coil over a branch. My ATB wraps around a fake plant, branch and straight perch all at once.

[SSSSnakes]

Jerry, what do you mean by 3 points of contact? 3 different perches?

It can be 2 branches that cross each other. They want 3 parts of their body touching something.

[Rogue628]

Thanks for the info! I've been getting really interested in ATB's lately. Not sure if I'd own one, however, I still love to learn anything about the species I have not kept yet as they begin to interest me. :)

[Rogue628]

Be careful about trying to see if the snake is handle-able at a reptile expo. At the expo, the temps are normally cooler than you would normally keep the snake at. This sometimes make the snake more docile and slower. Then when you get the snake home and warm it up, you find it's real temperament.


I saw a perfect example of this at a reptile expo. Some breeder had a dwarf burm. He called him Chainsaw. Chainsaw was fine when held at first. As soon as he warmed up, he was all about biting the handler and anyone close enough for him to tag. It was really interesting to see how the breeder handled him without being bitten and stressing the poor animal out too much. Someone had wanted to buy him and he was warned that Chainsaw was evil. After seeing for himself, the prospective buyer decided against the purchase. lol

[Corey209]

If anyone in northern california wants to trade for an atb I have one, looking for other arboreals. Mine is a male about, about 2 years old and over 4 feet.

[Aaron_S]

When I see people talking about ATBs and calling them aggressive while having no real experience with them I see it as the herp community version of when a non snake person tells me some BS story about snakes that they have never seen. Any reptile person should be able to identify with that. Falsehoods spoken out of ignorance are still falsehoods. I have produced around 100 CBB ATBs in my breeding career and far more of them have been placid than not. That is my personal first hand experience which happens to be backed up by quite a few people in this thread.

In dealing with WC ATBs I have found them to bite slightly more often but with proper handling they are fine for the most part. What is the exception to the real world rule is that ATBs are bitey, the norm for them is actually the opposite. This is spoken with the authority of someone who has around 50 in my possession right now and who has had a few hundred pass through my hands both WC, CB, and CBB.

If you somehow find that statement as offensive or flaming then maybe you should look at what you are saying. You are saying a group of animals I care for deeply are "biters" which is to say they are dangerous. The fact that it is one species in particular as opposed to all snakes does not matter to me. You are in fact passing along the same fear mongering that outsiders claim on all snakes to one species. To a non snake person who encounters a wild corn snake, they are biters because a wild corn picked up the wrong way will in fact bite you but we all know from personal experience that corns are in fact quite placid. What I am telling you from my vastly greater experience with ATB's is that they are also not really aggressive and I will stand behind that 100%. There are simple rules to handling them and they are on a whole easy to deal with but I will agree that there are a few in the mix that are biters but guess what, the same is true of corns snakes!

Jason

Jason, I have shown my experience with them. I also have experience with wild corn snakes. They don't bite. Not even close to how often I find ATB's to bite.

I have my personal experience with them to go on, with a range of them. A couple dozen to be exact. I'm good with my opinion of them. I still stick to the recommendation of not handling them because they tend to care less about you then.

You can get calm ones and you can get chainsaws. Just like other arboreals.

[Corey209]

Jason, I have shown my experience with them. I also have experience with wild corn snakes. They don't bite. Not even close to how often I find ATB's to bite.

I have my personal experience with them to go on, with a range of them. A couple dozen to be exact. I'm good with my opinion of them. I still stick to the recommendation of not handling them because they tend to care less about you then.

You can get calm ones and you can get chainsaws. Just like other arboreals.

I find that the ATBs I've been around are always sort of cage defensive but they don't always bite. I've also noticed little things can tick them off and send them striking like if he were to notice one of your fingers while moving your hand around near his face.

[millertime89]

What about Morelia carinata? They have a similar look to them but I've heard they are more handleable. Although I have never even once seen one for sale in my neck of the woods...

If you can find one at a price you're willing to fork over I highly encourage it. They're much heavier bodied than ATBs (which isn't saying much since ATBs are possibly the least-heavy-bodied snake out there, I can't think of another one), very similar in size to GTPs. I got to handle two of them last spring, amazing animals, but I would say their attitude is similar to that of most carpets. They can be placid, but if they have a bad day watch out.

http://www.1320video.com/img/album375/MG_9009_2.sized.jpg

http://www.1320video.com/img/album375/MG_9010.sized.jpg
(those are my pictures)

Watch out for those teeth! (image from Morelia Hunter)
http://www.sareptiles.co.za/gallery/albums/userpics/10011/502_000b.jpg

[Aaron_S]

I find that the ATBs I've been around are always sort of cage defensive but they don't always bite. I've also noticed little things can tick them off and send them striking like if he were to notice one of your fingers while moving your hand around near his face.

My baby balls do the finger thing too. :D

I hope to see more of them as calm as corns.

[droidurlooking4]

Found a few videos of ATB being handled on youtube with no problems. I am looking to purchase my first pair in a few months when I makes some more room. Wish I could post the link on here it wont let me for some reason.

[Jason_Hood]

Here are a serious of pics that customers have posted on Facebook of ATBs purchased from me. A couple of these I even had to message and suggest less interaction for the health of the snake but you get the idea.

Not my pic or hand but one of my snakes

http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/v/710914_10151186333772945_144385559_n.jpg?oh=510183 88c64577e5c6840a60d6557057&oe=50CA4BBD&__gda__=1355494287_9e2544e0007949e091d863ac7b535ef c

Not my pic but my baby

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/148253_3954876432308_1387181671_n.jpg

Not my pic or kids but my baby

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/402817_4214381528168_988965947_n.jpg

Not my pic or kid but one of my babies

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/644090_369071833186251_44579679_n.jpg

and not my pic or little girl arm but my baby

http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/v/566130_10151218955332615_1591869309_n.jpg?oh=aa6ea 03e5e75a082f9c6c846b1149eaa&oe=50CA5A02&__gda__=1355456010_7eaf65caea89726e1d63b23ff8dde96 3

Point is not a drop of blood in any of those pics!

Jason

[Snakeman8]

I love rough scaled!