Reptillian Theories

[Aaron_S]

So this is a continuation from another thread. Post your debated topics of reptillian theories here. Post links or citations to prove, or disprove other theories.

Do they love, feel as we do? Let's find out.

[KORBIN5895]

So this is a continuation from another thread. Post your debated topics of reptillian theories here. Post links or citations to prove, or disprove other theories.

Do the love, feel as we do? Let's find out.

Fix that. Dexter must've had you up real late last night.

My theory is snakes bite because they are angry by their lack of arms and hands.

[infernalis]

So this is a continuation from another thread. Post your debated topics of reptillian theories here. Post links or citations to prove, or disprove other theories.

Do they love, feel as we do? Let's find out.

Doubt it, put one on the ground, call it's name... does it even look back?? nope.

will they consume their own babies?? most will, and never give it a thought.

[Will0W783]

put one on the ground, call it's name... does it even look back??

Snakes are deaf to airborne sounds, aren't they? They have no external ears.

I do not think they can "love" or even form real bonds like a dog or cat would. They can, however, learn that we are not a threat and be calm around us. I have heard of people who own king cobras for years, and the snake follows them around or sits quietly with them. I personally would not risk it...it's still an instinct-driven creature.

[infernalis]

Snakes are deaf to airborne sounds, aren't they? They have no external ears.

I do not think they can "love" or even form real bonds like a dog or cat would. They can, however, learn that we are not a threat and be calm around us. I have heard of people who own king cobras for years, and the snake follows them around or sits quietly with them. I personally would not risk it...it's still an instinct-driven creature.

I was not narrowing my scope to just snakes. I know of people who lost lizards that took off running the second they saw the chance at freedom.

[TragicTaste]

To all who do read this and still disagree with everyones experience, because "your reptile is different than others", leave your cage open over night, and see if your buddy is still waitin to be played with in the morning.

[Lankyrob]

Reptiles in general are instinct driven. I do believe that lizards are much more intelligent than snakes and can apply some logic and reason to their actions and also form a bond of sorts with their keeper.

I will try to find a link to a program i saw that showed a monitor lizard picking the right colour box in order to get food....... Watchthis space ;)

Quick search found this http://www.zo.utexas.edu/courses/THOC/NH.pdf but not found the documentsry yet :)

[jarich]

I think you seem to have missed that second part of Aaron's post, where he called for citation. Thank you Rob for at least a cursory search.

Now then, to dispel the conjectural 'evidence' so far presented simply replace the word "snake" or "reptile" with "2 year old child".

[Aaron_S]

I think you seem to have missed that second part of Aaron's post, where he called for citation. Thank you Rob for at least a cursory search.

Now then, to dispel the conjectural 'evidence' so far presented simply replace the word "snake" or "reptile" with "2 year old child".

Do you have kids?

I think the problem with your idea of using a 2 year old child as an example of mental capacity is simply that a child can and does learn. A snake does not develop further.

Also, I have a 5 year old daughter. When she was 2 I could tell her to stay in the living room with her toys while I jumped in the shower for 3 - 5 minutes. She'd listen. A reptile, would not.

[jarich]

Ok then replace it with "16 year old child" then. ;) My point was that this is again nothing more than conjecture and proves nothing other than opinions.

And yes, I have children.

[Falconeer999]

If anyone has a medical/biology degree, there are probably some insights in here. They didn't teach this stuff in law school so I have no idea what any of it really says.

Reptile Brain Research -- Neurotransmitter.net (http://www.neurotransmitter.net/reptilebrain.html)

[infernalis]

All testing done by actual doctors are intelligence testing. I know of no testing for bonding or love.

However, there is always one exception to every rule, There is a species of lizard in Australia that pair bonds for life with a single partner.

I would love to cite something, and believe me, with Varanids on the higher order of the intelligence scale, there would be something available about "emotions" but I have never heard of it.

[millertime89]

Ok then replace it with "16 year old child" then. ;) My point was that this is again nothing more than conjecture and proves nothing other than opinions.

And yes, I have children.

I dunno if a 16 year old would be any better...

[mykee]

I prefer to think that my snakes are emotionless because it's easier for me to toss them in the freezer when they get the sniffles.

[MDT]

If anyone has a medical/biology degree, there are probably some insights in here. They didn't teach this stuff in law school so I have no idea what any of it really says.

Reptile Brain Research -- Neurotransmitter.net (http://www.neurotransmitter.net/reptilebrain.html)

I went to med school and I still don't know what it says....:confused:
That being said, snakes operate on a very basic "emotional" level...."can I eat it/get warm by it/breed with it?" I'm pretty sure there is zero about "wow, I really love my owner".

[KORBIN5895]

I prefer to think that my snakes are emotionless because it's easier for me to toss them in the freezer when they get the sniffles.

I like to think they have emotions. I also like to imagine the abject terror they feel when I toss them in the freezer. I pretend I can hear their screams. It also makes watching them breed more fun!

[SnakeyJay]

I like to think they have emotions. I also like to imagine the abject terror they feel when I toss them in the freezer. I pretend I can hear their screams. It also makes watching them breed more fun!

Awesome... Your forgetting about the look of terror in their eyes when you make the other snakes watch. :D

[marvelfreak]

They are cold blooded, unfeeling creatures. They only live to eat, reproduce, and make messes for me to clean up. Just like my first wife. lol

But seriously all i am to my snakes is the person that cleans there cage, waters and feeds them. They don't love me they could care less about me. Anyone could take care of them. If i am handling them and they wrap around me it for heat, or to keep from falling, or maybe protection.

I have had friends over and they will be holding my snakes and certain snakes will climb from them back to me every time. Does this mean they love me? Hell no. It just means they associate me with being safe. They are out and moving around they're people they don't know, so to them i am like a safe hide. Nothing more! They know i won't hurt them and will put them back in their cage where it's safe.

[StudentoReptile]

They are cold blooded, unfeeling creatures. They only live to eat, reproduce, and make messes for me to clean up. Just like my first wife. lol

But seriously all i am to my snakes is the person that cleans there cage, waters and feeds them. They don't love me they could care less about me. Anyone could take care of them. If i am handling them and they wrap around me it for heat, or to keep from falling, or maybe protection.

I have had friends over and they will be holding my snakes and certain snakes will climb from them back to me every time. Does this mean they love me? Hell no. It just means they associate me with being safe. They are out and moving around they're people they don't know, so to them i am like a safe hide. Nothing more! They know i won't hurt them and will put them back in their cage where it's safe.

Ditto. They do not show love or affection in any way. In reality, neither do any reptiles. ANything can be traced back to instinctual behavior.

[Aaron_S]

Anybody have any facts to back the claims?

[dinosaurdammit]

My snakes love me >:C DONT YOU DARE TELL ME DIFFERENT

Also, I am pretty sure my monitor appreciates me even if it is because when he crawls on me he gets squid. Thats love. Totally

[Gungirl]

Anybody have any facts to back the claims?

Of course not ... what person with any intelligence is going to waste time finding out if snakes "love". The answer is no.. they do not.

[Aaron_S]

Of course not ... what person with any intelligence is going to waste time finding out if snakes "love". The answer is no.. they do not.

I was hoping as a group we could find some information. Wayne said it best that nobody tests for "love" but I have a small lead on some brain activity of reptiles.

That's probably where to look. Not emotion but brain activity.

I am looking for the information so whenever this comes up I can post it so as to have some credit to what I'm saying.

[Gungirl]

After seeing this thread I did a bit of searching.. I didn't find anything but I would love to read anything you find.

[shaunyboy]

I was hoping as a group we could find some information. Wayne said it best that nobody tests for "love" but I have a small lead on some brain activity of reptiles.

That's probably where to look. Not emotion but brain activity.

I am looking for the information so whenever this comes up I can post it so as to have some credit to what I'm saying.

Aaron,i would be interested in reading up on snake brain activity,especially when the snakes placed in certain situations...

please feel free to share any information/studies etc you find mate

cheers shaun

[red ink]

Doubt it, put one on the ground, call it's name... does it even look back?? nope.

will they consume their own babies?? most will, and never give it a thought.

Lets do one better to conclusive prove that snakes have emotions.... particularly the emotion of snakes "loving" their keepers.

Let's all take are snakes out into a suitable environment for them to thrive in and set them free...

afterall if you love something then set it free, if it comes back it loves you back... doesn't it?

We can all convene in a month to discuss our findings... we can not prove this without proper experimentation and proper statistical data to back us up?

Who's with me on this?

[marvelfreak]

Lets do one better to conclusive prove that snakes have emotions.... particularly the emotion of snakes "loving" their keepers.

Let's all take are snakes out into a suitable environment for them to thrive in and set them free...

afterall if you love something then set it free, if it comes back it loves you back... doesn't it?

We can all convene in a month to discuss our findings... we can not prove this without proper experimentation and proper statistical data to back us up?

Who's with me on this?
It been really cold here at nights so i don't know if they would make it threw the night. But hey i do have a Ball python their a dime a dozen so i could try it with him. lol

[jarich]

Of course not ... what person with any intelligence is going to waste time finding out if snakes "love". The answer is no.. they do not.

If that were even remotely true Kat, we would all still believe the earth was flat. A person of intelligence would not be so sure of something without first having researched it. Hence the original point of this thread...

[Danimal]

Why is this important? Because someone is annoying? I believe the same as most of you, I just don't think it's important enough to give this much thought. If you have to start a concerted effort to track down information, and you don't have any luck... hello. :)

[EmbraceCalamity]

Why is this important? Because someone is annoying? I believe the same as most of you, I just don't think it's important enough to give this much thought. If you have to start a concerted effort to track down information, and you don't have any luck... hello. :)1) This is a reptile forum for discussing reptiles. That's what this is.
2) Infernalis put this nicely: http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/788011-post19.html

~Maggot

[KORBIN5895]

I was hoping as a group we could find some information. Wayne said it best that nobody tests for "love" but I have a small lead on some brain activity of reptiles.

That's probably where to look. Not emotion but brain activity.

I am looking for the information so whenever this comes up I can post it so as to have some credit to what I'm saying.

BwahaShahahaEhahahahahXhahahaha! Good luck with you being credible.

Lets do one better to conclusive prove that snakes have emotions.... particularly the emotion of snakes "loving" their keepers.

Let's all take are snakes out into a suitable environment for them to thrive in and set them free...

afterall if you love something then set it free, if it comes back it loves you back... doesn't it?

We can all convene in a month to discuss our findings... we can not prove this without proper experimentation and proper statistical data to back us up?

Who's with me on this?

I'm in. I have three corns I can let go.

Why is this important? Because someone is annoying? I believe the same as most of you, I just don't think it's important enough to give this much thought. If you have to start a concerted effort to track down information, and you don't have any luck... hello. :)

This is being discussed because we get all kinds of people coming on her that have snakes that just love them and them alone. Logical people get that that isn't how it works but these people get all upset and angry. So if we can compile some real evidence for those that lack the ability to use logic then we stop being haters and maybe they will gain some understanding.

[Danimal]

This is being discussed because we get all kinds of people coming on her that have snakes that just love them and them alone. Logical people get that that isn't how it works but these people get all upset and angry. So if we can compile some real evidence for those that lack the ability to use logic then we stop being haters and maybe they will gain some understanding.



I'm with you Korbin, my approach is just different. It is illogical and irrational, I just wonder how you are going to ever be able to have a rational conversation on that subject with those types of personalities. Outside of any imminent danger to the animal, is it really worth the effort?

I am not suggesting apathy here either, just pick better battles. We have quite a few to pick from. I think there needs to be more education to generate more interest in the hobby. I also think that we can't even talk to each other most of the time much less someone new to the hobby. Petty squabbling of the most insignificant difference of opinion on husbandry or semantics to make sure we have wiggle room out of a bad answer.
One disclaimer about the more negative part of my statement here.
I am not suggesting that no one ever gets helped here, but even in a helpful thread, it's the 3-5+ pages of infighting that seems counter productive.

Just saying that there are things that way on me more heavily than if Betty Jo thinks her lizard kisses her everyday when she gets home from work.

[KORBIN5895]

I'm with you Korbin, my approach is just different. It is illogical and irrational, I just wonder how you are going to ever be able to have a rational conversation on that subject with those types of personalities. Outside of any imminent danger to the animal, is it really worth the effort?

I am not suggesting apathy here either, just pick better battles. We have quite a few to pick from. I think there needs to be more education to generate more interest in the hobby. I also think that we can't even talk to each other most of the time much less someone new to the hobby. Petty squabbling of the most insignificant difference of opinion on husbandry or semantics to make sure we have wiggle room out of a bad answer.
One disclaimer about the more negative part of my statement here.
I am not suggesting that no one ever gets helped here, but even in a helpful thread, it's the 3-5+ pages of infighting that seems counter productive.

Just saying that there are things that way on me more heavily than if Betty Jo thinks her lizard kisses her everyday when she gets home from work.

Lol! The problem is that some of these people are putting their pets and our hobby in serious danger. Now does that mean they will listen? Nope. If ignorance is bliss most of those people are orgasmic. So why would they listen?

[StudentoReptile]

I'm with you Korbin, my approach is just different. It is illogical and irrational, I just wonder how you are going to ever be able to have a rational conversation on that subject with those types of personalities. Outside of any imminent danger to the animal, is it really worth the effort?

I am not suggesting apathy here either, just pick better battles. We have quite a few to pick from. I think there needs to be more education to generate more interest in the hobby. I also think that we can't even talk to each other most of the time much less someone new to the hobby. Petty squabbling of the most insignificant difference of opinion on husbandry or semantics to make sure we have wiggle room out of a bad answer.
One disclaimer about the more negative part of my statement here.
I am not suggesting that no one ever gets helped here, but even in a helpful thread, it's the 3-5+ pages of infighting that seems counter productive.

Just saying that there are things that way on me more heavily than if Betty Jo thinks her lizard kisses her everyday when she gets home from work.

Well said. As long as Betty Jo cares for her lizard responsibly and properly, and doesn't walk around in public with it in a handbag like she's a Kardashian, I really could care less if she thinks it "loves" her or not.

[infernalis]

Well said. As long as Betty Jo cares for her lizard responsibly and properly, and doesn't walk around in public with it in a handbag like she's a Kardashian, I really could care less if she thinks it "loves" her or not.

This is where I am at too, I may think it's a little fruity, but as long as the animal is getting proper care, it's needs are met and it's not getting mauled to death, then big whoop.

[jarich]

I actually was enjoying the trend these last few comments were showing and so thought about not commenting further. However, I did find something rather funny about the certainty displayed in this thread, especially given that the foremost authorities in the world on this subject aren't that certain yet. Words like 'fact', 'logic', and 'rationality' keep getting used throughout, yet not a single person could come up with a single piece of research to back it up. Some simplistic case of an interpretation of animal behaviour that you assume to be right, but could easily be interpreted otherwise, is not research or proof of anything. The real shame of it is, that there is a great deal of interesting research on this topic, and the one person (Falconeer) who put up a starting point, was largely ignored.

So what you are all saying then is that you had an opinion, you saw some conjectural evidence to make you think its right, you assume your opinion is 'fact', 'logic' and 'rational', wont even consider a different opinion and you make fun of others for thinking otherwise.

I think its funny because its exactly what the people you are making fun of have done. They too started with an opinion, saw some conjectural evidence that made them think it was right, and assumed it was logical, rational etc. Which means, I suppose, the only difference between you and them is that they arent making fun of you for your beliefs.

I guess what I am saying is that you have your beliefs (that reptiles have no emotions) and that is all they are until you actually have some proof to say otherwise. So too with people who believe that reptiles can love them or whatever. Youre both in the same uneducated boat and until you decide to do something to get out of it, your ridicule of the other occupants seems ridiculous.

[Lankyrob]

The overwhelming amount of evidence from experienced keepers of these animals is that they DONT have emotions so in that situation i would look to the opposers of thsi view to provide the evidence :)

[jarich]

Again Rob, that's not evidence, that's conjecture and assumption.

[EmbraceCalamity]

Again Rob, that's not evidence, that's conjecture and assumption.I attempted to find some published scientific articles regarding the topic. There weren't many, but I found a few, but I wasn't allowed access to the full text. I'll try again through my university's database later and see if I can find anything.

~Maggot

[StudentoReptile]

The tricky part is truly defining emotion, a very subjective concept within itself.

And we're trying to apply this to animals that have no means of facial expression, no vocalization (with few exceptions), limited gesturing.

Even comparing a lizard to a dog, you're going to come up short. Dogs wag their tails when they are "happy/friendly/cordial." What does a lizard do when its happy? I haven't a clue. So to prove they have emotion, you have to prove they can express it.

I think crossing the intelligence barrier is the first step, but my instincts tell me that there really is nothing there in the emotion dept when it comes to reptiles.

Let's look at the animals we do know have some level of emotion: canines, felines, cetaceans, elephants, primates, some birds. Most of these are animals that have established social groups, and all are species that have relatively lengthy time spans for rearing offspring (some for many years!). Yeah, there are a couple exceptions here and there of lizard species being communal or pair-bonding, or the offspring stays with the parent(s) for an extended period...but none of these really compare to what we see in the mammal and avian world. I just don't see it.

I don't have all the answers, but until there is sufficient evidence that suggests otherwise, there is a unique combination of intelligence and complex social behavior that allows for a particular species to possess emotion. I have yet to see it in any reptile.

[Ryodraco]

Let's look at the animals we do know have some level of emotion: canines, felines, cetaceans, elephants, primates, some birds. Most of these are animals that have established social groups, and all are species that have relatively lengthy time spans for rearing offspring (some for many years!). Yeah, there are a couple exceptions here and there of lizard species being communal or pair-bonding, or the offspring stays with the parent(s) for an extended period...but none of these really compare to what we see in the mammal and avian world. I just don't see it.

I don't have all the answers, but until there is sufficient evidence that suggests otherwise, there is a unique combination of intelligence and complex social behavior that allows for a particular species to possess emotion. I have yet to see it in any reptile.
In all I've read I'd say the highest form of reptilian intelligence is found in crocodilians, and new discoveries about what they are capable of seem to be made all the time.

I recall a documentary that showed some remarkable behavior from a caiman (I think it was "Life of Reptiles"). Said caiman was the only adult left in a pond full of young caiman. She had essentially become their guardian, although most were not actually her babies. Nothing too strange there as crocodilians will protect young that are not their own, but her staying there while all the other females left was certainly strange.

It had parallels to the behavior of varous birds where one individual will remain to look after the young of many parents. The most amazing part came next though, when the pond got low. The adult caiman left the pond one night to seek a new, fuller water hole. Incredibly the young followed her out of the safety of the water and onto a large expanse of dry land. For some time they travelled. The adult was a good deal faster, but she would routinely stop, appearing to "wait" for the young to catch up. Eventually she led them to a new water hole.

Evidence of emotion? No. But behavioral complexity, even "thinking" rivaling the so-called "higher" animals? Perhaps so.

So I do think studying the limits and complexity of reptilian behavior is quite a worthy cause. Even if they are not capable of feeling things in a way that a bird or mammal might, I think it's fair to say there could be many surprises inside their heads as to what they are capable of.

[StudentoReptile]

Could be explained as such: while yes, the young caiman weren't her own, and therefore she had no obligation to further her own genetic material, the adult lone female may simply have been doing what she could to preserve/further the success of her species in general...which is why animals exist in the first place.

Mind you, do not be disillusioned into thinking that she was making these choices consciously. I would wager a lot was instinct, as was the young's action to follow her (self-preservation?).

[Ryodraco]

Could be explained as such: while yes, the young caiman weren't her own, and therefore she had no obligation to further her own genetic material, the adult lone female may simply have been doing what she could to preserve/further the success of her species in general...which is why animals exist in the first place.
It's been my impression that the majority of animal behavior doesn't care much about the survival of a species in general, but the individual's own genetic material or closely related material (albeit there are many exceptions). It's why lion males who take over prides will kill or drive away all the young from the previous male.

Mind you, do not be disillusioned into thinking that she was making these choices consciously. I would wager a lot was instinct, as was the young's action to follow her (self-preservation?).
A lot certainly was instinct, but if any of it wasn't instinct it still shows the amazing things the reptile mind might be capable of.

[MH4C]

Sorry for bumping up this 3 month old topic, but as a neuroscientist I find the topic of 'awareness/emotion' in all animals interesting, and as a snake keeper especially in snakes. The whole problem with thinking your snake is happy/sad or any other human emotion is that we project our own view of an experience on the snake. When your snake, or any other animal for that matter, is happily dozing away after eating a meal, we would call it content with it's position, because that is what we would be when placed in that exact position.
We don't know what, or even if, an animal feels the same way. Only for mammals we have an indication that something is going on at the emotional level, as extensive research has been done on brain activity during 'emotional' tasks or settings like relapse to an addicted state in rats or social interaction by rats that have been made 'depressed'. There are even what you could call 'clinical symptoms' for these conditions, which don't diverge that far from what we see in addicted or depressed humans.

To my knowledge there have not been any studies regarding emotional awareness or pathological emotional states in reptiles, however, my knowledge on this is still limited (thanks falconeer999 for the website...will be spending quite some time there :)). What I do know is that many reptiles can learn and that snakes, widely regarded as the simplest of reptiles, can be trained to recognize spatial cues and efficiently navigate 3D space. This research group trained cornsnakes on in a round chamber with 8 evenly spaced holes in the floor around the rim. 7 of these holes were cover from underneath so the snake could not climb in, but the cover was only visible when the snake reached the hole, and a white card was placed on one side of the chamber. similar setups have also been widely used with spatial recognition training in mice and rats this is generally called the 'Barnes maze'. After training (placing the snake in the maze in the same orientation each time, leaving the same hole as an escape hole) the snakes became more efficient and goal-directed towards the escape hole, showing they can recognize environmental ques to efficiently navigate a familiar environment.

Although this doesn't answer anything about the question 'do reptiles have emotions or feelings' it shows that they have a complex brain which can learn and integrate somatosensory and behavioural patterns. Who knows what else we can learn about reptiles and cognition. I'll keep digging, this is pretty interesting stuff and I didn't know there was this much research about it out there, and let you guys know if I find something worthwhile to maybe answer this ever ongoing discussion ;).

[Will0W783]

I didn't know you were a neuroscientist, M4HC! I am too; it's great to meet another sciencey type on here! I'm actually just about to get my Ph.D. in a month (*cold sweat*) on the topic of how Ritalin exposure early in life affects cortical function and development. I have found this thread to be very interesting as well.

The fact is that we have no way of objectively measuring another being's perception of an event. Even when it comes to people, two humans can experience the same sensory stimulus, and interpret it differently;thus each having a distinct conscious experience of it. For example...poking two people with a wire might cause pain to one and tickle the other. What do they feel? Why? Why is it different? We don't know.

We have animal models of addiction, depression, and many disorders like schizophrenia and Alzheimer's disease, but these are just functional models...we can't say for sure the rat experiences depression in the same way that a human does.

A few decades ago, we all thought birds were stupid. "Bird brain" was an insult...however, Dr. Irene Pepperberg's work with Alex the African grey parrot changed all that and showed that Alex was capable of intelligent use of language and understanding the meaning of words. I own an African grey, and he is very clever and intelligent.
So who knows what we will find out about reptiles in the next few decades? I'm excited and curious to find out....

[Gravelanche]

i think of life as far as intelligence in 4 different dimensions,

The first dimension is simple life, plants, the most minute of insects, and jellyfish. they operate at best on an axis of pain vs comfort.

The second dimension encompasses the majority of the animal kingdom and basically includes the capacity to learn anything and adapt to that information. i don't think anyone here doubts that their snakes learn in some form, they recognize our smells and know we aren't food, they learn that F/T is acceptable food and most importantly they feel stress, the basic concept of stress is to be outside one's comfort zone so one must be aware of it's surroundings to be comfortable. Most snakes can be taken out and handled and not be overly stressed which means to SOME degree they overcome the basic genetic instinct that being picked up is bad. So it could be said they operate based on an X-axis of pain vs comfort with a Y axis of instinct vs conditioning.

then to round it out we have the third dimension which adds consciousness or awareness. best examples are dogs and similarly intelligent animals, the ability not only to learn and remember, but recognize and feel based on experience. no one doubts a dog loves their owner if it was well cared for and may well fear them if treated poorly. Add the Z axis of emotion.

Then of course the highest intelligence in the 4th dimension, which simply means the understanding and awareness of the other dimensions. The ability to feel one way and choose to ignore it and act another for any motivation we choose for example placating your boss when stress emotion and instinct tell you to sucker punch the *******. it is also the awareness of consequences. that cheesecake smells good but if i eat the whole thing i will get diabetes.

do my snakes love me? i believe so, but i believe it is a love in a form their axis can support, ie they are relaxed around me and allow me to hold them which their base instincts would not like

[Aaron_S]

Sorry for bumping up this 3 month old topic, but as a neuroscientist I find the topic of 'awareness/emotion' in all animals interesting, and as a snake keeper especially in snakes. The whole problem with thinking your snake is happy/sad or any other human emotion is that we project our own view of an experience on the snake. When your snake, or any other animal for that matter, is happily dozing away after eating a meal, we would call it content with it's position, because that is what we would be when placed in that exact position.
We don't know what, or even if, an animal feels the same way. Only for mammals we have an indication that something is going on at the emotional level, as extensive research has been done on brain activity during 'emotional' tasks or settings like relapse to an addicted state in rats or social interaction by rats that have been made 'depressed'. There are even what you could call 'clinical symptoms' for these conditions, which don't diverge that far from what we see in addicted or depressed humans.

To my knowledge there have not been any studies regarding emotional awareness or pathological emotional states in reptiles, however, my knowledge on this is still limited (thanks falconeer999 for the website...will be spending quite some time there :)). What I do know is that many reptiles can learn and that snakes, widely regarded as the simplest of reptiles, can be trained to recognize spatial cues and efficiently navigate 3D space. This research group trained cornsnakes on in a round chamber with 8 evenly spaced holes in the floor around the rim. 7 of these holes were cover from underneath so the snake could not climb in, but the cover was only visible when the snake reached the hole, and a white card was placed on one side of the chamber. similar setups have also been widely used with spatial recognition training in mice and rats this is generally called the 'Barnes maze'. After training (placing the snake in the maze in the same orientation each time, leaving the same hole as an escape hole) the snakes became more efficient and goal-directed towards the escape hole, showing they can recognize environmental ques to efficiently navigate a familiar environment.

Although this doesn't answer anything about the question 'do reptiles have emotions or feelings' it shows that they have a complex brain which can learn and integrate somatosensory and behavioural patterns. Who knows what else we can learn about reptiles and cognition. I'll keep digging, this is pretty interesting stuff and I didn't know there was this much research about it out there, and let you guys know if I find something worthwhile to maybe answer this ever ongoing discussion ;).

You make some good solid points.

I got some resources some months ago for this thread that I haven't quite sifted through yet. I'll post them when I do.


Without that experiment on corn snakes we all knew they have behaviour patterns. Some snakes learn that when their door or tub is opened that food comes from that opening. I would suggest that this is a pattern with them being familiar with it.

I do have a further question about the experiment you mentioned. Did they sterilize or make an attempt to remove the smell of each snake after trial? It could be presumed that the snakes followed the scent of another one through possibly for mating purposes even. If you have the report I'd be interested in reading it.

[bcr226]

Do snakes have emotions? I believe they do. They may not be able to convey their emotions with us in a manner we understand but let's look at a few points.

1. It has been proven that snakes have memory. Tests show that snakes can recognize duplicate structure on sight without input from smell.

2. Snakes are curious animals. They will investigate new things and explore things unknown to them. I see this if I change up or add something to any of our enclosures.

3. Snakes process information. It may be basic information but they do it and they learn from it. Case in point, teaching a snake to recognize rats as food over mice.

Some of our snakes react differently to different people in a consistent manner. One of our ball pythons will curl up under my shirt and stay there for hours while this same one will constantly cruise around on my wife trying to get into trouble. This shows at least to a minor degree a level of recognition of different people.

So, the basis of developing emotions is certainly there. Are they there? I only have my own observations which can be interpreted in various ways.

Our BCI breeding pair definitely have a bond of some degree. The male does not like the female being out of his sight. He will actively look for her until he can see her again. He'll become tense and agitated, not aggressive in any way but there is definitely a change in posture and stress. When he sees her, he relaxes.

But, that's observation. How does one test for emotion outside of observation?

No matter what, we're dealing with base level intelligence and mental activity. We know that most if not all animals have at least one emotion which is fear. How do we identify other emotions?

I'm game to experiment on this with the caveat that I will not harm or intentionally cause fear in any of the test subjects. But again, how do you test for it?

[Aaron_S]

Do snakes have emotions? I believe they do. They may not be able to convey their emotions with us in a manner we understand but let's look at a few points.

1. It has been proven that snakes have memory. Tests show that snakes can recognize duplicate structure on sight without input from smell.

2. Snakes are curious animals. They will investigate new things and explore things unknown to them. I see this if I change up or add something to any of our enclosures.

3. Snakes process information. It may be basic information but they do it and they learn from it. Case in point, teaching a snake to recognize rats as food over mice.

Some of our snakes react differently to different people in a consistent manner. One of our ball pythons will curl up under my shirt and stay there for hours while this same one will constantly cruise around on my wife trying to get into trouble. This shows at least to a minor degree a level of recognition of different people.

So, the basis of developing emotions is certainly there. Are they there? I only have my own observations which can be interpreted in various ways.

Our BCI breeding pair definitely have a bond of some degree. The male does not like the female being out of his sight. He will actively look for her until he can see her again. He'll become tense and agitated, not aggressive in any way but there is definitely a change in posture and stress. When he sees her, he relaxes.

But, that's observation. How does one test for emotion outside of observation?

No matter what, we're dealing with base level intelligence and mental activity. We know that most if not all animals have at least one emotion which is fear. How do we identify other emotions?

I'm game to experiment on this with the caveat that I will not harm or intentionally cause fear in any of the test subjects. But again, how do you test for it?

1. Where's the report?

2. Great. Your animals are leading causes and is a definite source for all animals in captivity.

3. Actually, we don't do that. They will eat both animals. It isn't one over the other. We don't teach them anything. We just get them to eat what we're offering because it's simple prey for us to use.

Snakes easily recognize things we don't. Confidence,fear or whatever may be underlining and that would cause for concern. I'd venture to say they are less comfortable because they use your shirt as a hide to hide from the world (stress in my opinion) and two, if it's cruising looking "for trouble" then it could be trying to escape.

Observe? Yes that's how you learn. You have yet to truly observe though. You presume your boas have a bond due to a 5 or 10 minute experience of "lost" between the two snakes. Have you housed them completely the same but in different enclosures and see how they behave over a week? 4 weeks? 4 months?

You have this caveat but with it you believe separating the boas to be harmful to their psyche or fearful of separation so you're only left with what you deem as a bond.

[stephanbakir]

Snakes are deaf to airborne sounds, aren't they? They have no external ears.

I do not think they can "love" or even form real bonds like a dog or cat would. They can, however, learn that we are not a threat and be calm around us. I have heard of people who own king cobras for years, and the snake follows them around or sits quietly with them. I personally would not risk it...it's still an instinct-driven creature.
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/general-discussion/87406-snakes-hear-stereo.html

[bcr226]

1. Where's the report?

2. Great. Your animals are leading causes and is a definite source for all animals in captivity.

3. Actually, we don't do that. They will eat both animals. It isn't one over the other. We don't teach them anything. We just get them to eat what we're offering because it's simple prey for us to use.

Snakes easily recognize things we don't. Confidence,fear or whatever may be underlining and that would cause for concern. I'd venture to say they are less comfortable because they use your shirt as a hide to hide from the world (stress in my opinion) and two, if it's cruising looking "for trouble" then it could be trying to escape.

Observe? Yes that's how you learn. You have yet to truly observe though. You presume your boas have a bond due to a 5 or 10 minute experience of "lost" between the two snakes. Have you housed them completely the same but in different enclosures and see how they behave over a week? 4 weeks? 4 months?

You have this caveat but with it you believe separating the boas to be harmful to their psyche or fearful of separation so you're only left with what you deem as a bond.

Wow, talk about opinion. Tell ya what, when you come down off of your little holier than thou high there, and want to discuss it politely without the assumption and attitude, I'll be happy to explore this topic further.

I don't like it when people make assumptions and make up context out of what I post when they don't know better. Yes, I relayed some of my observations, I didn't go into great detail but you seem to "know" everything that happened so please, by all means, carry on.

Never seen someone troll their own thread so well before.:O_o:

[Aaron_S]

Wow, talk about opinion. Tell ya what, when you come down off of your little holier than thou high there, and want to discuss it politely without the assumption and attitude, I'll be happy to explore this topic further.

I don't like it when people make assumptions and make up context out of what I post when they don't know better. Yes, I relayed some of my observations, I didn't go into great detail but you seem to "know" everything that happened so please, by all means, carry on.

Never seen someone troll their own thread so well before.:O_o:

Actually it's not opinion. It's fact thus far.

When you actually have a response feel free to say it. I didn't take anything out of context. I responded to what I've read you've posted. If there's information left out that makes my response null and void then post it. It's your fault assumptions are made about you if you withhold information that's apparently important enough to change the entire context.

[MDT]

bcr226...i think where aaron is going with this is your sample population of your animals can't be strong enough to give anything other than opinion. mh4c could give more insight into this, but i really don't think the reptilian brain is developed enough in the appropriate areas to really produce emotions (i may be wrong). in order to really make a valid conclusion, an appropriately sized sample is needed with the hypothesis to be tested. anything other than that, it really is just speculation that "my snake loves to curl up on me"....not trying to stir things up, just keeping it real.

[bcr226]

bcr226...i think where aaron is going with this is your sample population of your animals can't be strong enough to give anything other than opinion. mh4c could give more insight into this, but i really don't think the reptilian brain is developed enough in the appropriate areas to really produce emotions (i may be wrong). in order to really make a valid conclusion, an appropriately sized sample is needed with the hypothesis to be tested. anything other than that, it really is just speculation that "my snake loves to curl up on me"....not trying to stir things up, just keeping it real.


Agreed, what I was saying in my post and postulating was how do we test for emotion? I've seen glimpses of what could be construed as emotion on a simple observation basis. No offense to Aaron but he's more interested in trying to dispel discourse vs. finding an acceptable method to discern emotion or not in an animal. I gave my simple observations to establish that the base line factors for development of emotion are there in reptiles based upon similar base line studies for certain primate mammals.

I've looked on the web and I've come to one conclusion. Its is ASSUMED that snakes and reptiles do not have emotion but as far as I can tell, it's never been tested in any publicly released study or evaluation.

So, once again, I pose the question... How does one test for emotion. Separation may be one possible way but I see enough problems with this that make it less than probable to formulate any kind of conclusion. There are simply too many factors that make it unworkable such as establishing a base line between several sample pairs of animals. How do you establish a control group when you have the margin of error based upon past experience differences between every animal having a major effect on the possible outcomes? To over come this, the test sampling would have to be enormous to minimize these factors with percentage based outcomes.

We need to devise a way to test emotion in reptiles on a smaller scale, that precludes the need for bonded pairs of animals, and can establish a base line of variation in responses to filter out instinct vs. possible emotional response. We also need to target which emotions to look for and establish a means of identifying them.

This is no easy task. A question has been raised and I believe it's a very valid question either way it goes. We also need to consider instinctual emotion vs. learned emotion. Fear is instinctual. Love is not... it's learned.

Thoughts?

[MDT]

i would imagine neuroimaging with radio tagged markers to see if certain ares of the brain light up with different stimuli (like showing a picture of a cute puppy to a snake while in a PET scanner to see if the "love" lobe of the brain lights up). again MH4C could speak much more about this than i. however, instinct is not emotion. i'm kinda going out on a limb to say my snakes couldn't care less about me, their cage, whether they have apsen or husk substrate. i am tolerated by my animals and i derive much more pleasure from them than they do me.

[bcr226]

Maybe. I'm not so much concerned with their feelings or lack thereof concerning us as their keepers and handlers, I'm more interested in do they have emotional responses at all. Once we establish that base line, then we have to see how far it carries. Heck, maybe they see us like cats do... as slaves to be punished and rewarded. LOL

Seriously though, the more I think on this, the more I'm wondering how it can be done. neurotic response imaging is a possibility but its used more for mapping electro-chemical responses.

I think the best solution is part of what you suggest. Response factors to stimuli. Take 100 snakes of the same species, expose them to various non-standard types of stimulation. See what happens. Take those same snakes and expose them to the same 10 people repeatedly. See if a pattern of response develops that is unique to each person.

I know that our snakes respond differently to my wife as to me or my daughter. They are more cautious and careful around my daughter but that may be a physical response to her smaller hands holding them and making them feel less secure. I don't know but it's something worth looking at.

One of my customers might be able to provide some answers. He's a neuro surgeon with many years of experience. Maybe he can shed some light on some ideas on how to test this.

[Pareeeee]

I believe that Bearded Dragons can recognize a voice or phrase.

I used to have a beardie, who, when I put on the floor, would FREAK out (inflate body & beard, open mouth, sometimes hiss) when you'd walk toward her without saying anything. As soon as I would say "It's just me", she would 'deflate' and act calm.
I always thought that was very interesting behaviour.

[stephanbakir]

Re-the intelligence level of varanids... MAballs.net released a NERD video where Kevin proves that one of his old male albino varanid can differentiate between a human hand and a rat... the hand broke the feed response and the rat sent him back into a craze... not a full study, but interesting either way.

I don't think reptiles have the full range of emotion that we do... I think they are more or less purely instinct driven but I have no proof so my beliefs are my own for now and I base them on my personal observations... more then most can say about some of the things they follow in life *Cough* religion *cough*

[MH4C]

@ WilloW783, Indeed nice to see other sciency people in the hobby. You should really have the honors to make the calls on this subject, as I am 'just' a graduate student hoping to get a PhD position when I finish my masters around september. Nice to hear you've been doing developmental research even, as that is my topic of interest as well. At the moment I'm doing an internship on induced artifical network activity in the hippocampus.

Regarding many of the above posts: a lot of what we label as emotion in animals is, as Aaron aptly stated in many of his replies, what we see as emotion in ourselves. However, this does not necessarily mean that emotion is not there in these, by comparison, simple animals.
What we know for sure, and everyone that has ever had a snake with a skin wound can probably attest to that, is that snakes at least try to avoid pain. Of course there are also the examples where snakes burn themselves on their lightbulbs, but this can be explained by gradual heating instead of sudden pain. Of course pain is processed completely different from emotional stimuli, and what is known is that snakes, and other reptiles, have an increased heart rate upon handling (Cabanc, 1999, Emotion and phylogeny) which might be an indication of an emotional response. However, this could also just be the result of handling. This paper has also only been published in a very low impact journal, which makes its contibution to scientific knowledge low.

What we can say is that there are many snake species than can be trained to respond nonagressively to touch by humans, and primarly have a feeding response only in the presense of 'food odor'. It would be interesting to see if we can behaviourally train snakes to avoid food after initial food acceptance training by combining exposure to a food source with an aversive stimulus (much the same as they do with mice and freezing responses).
Mm...an interesting one would be if we could make a very 'docile' snake 'scared' of handling again when this handling is paired with a very aversive stimulus (I can imagine snakes also don't like low voltage shocks). If the snake then even with the aversive stimulus would not mind to be handled, up to some break-even point where the stimulus overrules the 'pleasure' of being handled, it would at least be a nice correlate of emotion in reptiles. Anyone has some money left? ;).

Brain imaging would be hard, as even in humans we are not really sure how and where emotions are processed. What is known is that the Thalamus plays an important role in information processing in the brain, probably information regarding emotional stimuli as well. Sadly, reptiles lack many parts or connections that our thalamus posesses, which makes it even harder to say how reptiles would process emotion if it exists. (Pritz, 1995, The thalamus of reptiles and mammals: similarities and differences)

Now as for my own opintion. I think snakes (and thus all other reptiles, as snakes are the simplest among them) have a very rudimentary form of emotion, in which the same tactile, auditive or visual stimulus can be interpreted in the brain in different ways to elicit different forms of behaviour. This is why some snakes already get a feeding response when put inside the feeding container on feeding day, but the feeding response is absent when put in the same container on any different day (works only when feeding on a tight schedule, personal observation).

Aaron, here's the title of the paper regarding training of cornsnakes: (Holtzmann et al. 1999, Spatial learning of an escape task by young corn snakes, Elaphe guttata guttata). They do not state that they cleaned the maze after each trial (I can't imagine they didn't). However to prevent this cue based behaviour you mentioned they moved the escape hole location to a different quadrant, meaning the new escape location for the next snake was at least 2 holes away from the one for the previous snake.

[ilovemypets1988]

pack animals such as cats and dogs use emotions to help communicate with there pack, even there "pecking" order has emotions involved and now ill get back to reptiles, most of which are solitary and live alone (except for breeding time) and as such, they dont need to evolve a way to communicate with each other.

that being said, they do have instinctual feelings such as fear, they just dont have the non instinct emotions such as love, being loves the most complex of all feelings, you need to be rather intelligent to have it like humans and yet we still dont actually understand love and how it works, so how can an animal where predatory instinct is there way of life

[bcr226]

The main problem for testing emotion comes from the fact that while emotion may be the result of a chemical or electro-chemical response, it is a psychological matter vs. a wholly physical matter.

It's closely related to mood in some manners which does give a small basis for creating a way to test for it but I just can't figure out how to come to any conclusive results.

I'm not a scientist but I do work with theory and development of ideas. I understand and use the concepts of experimentation on a regular basis in what I do. I'm a bit stumped on this but it's under my skin now and I want answers. LOL

[jarich]

An interesting read on brain lateralization and its implications for judging emotional capacity in reptiles.

Elsevier (http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/applan/article/S0168-1591(13)00052-X/abstract?elsca1=etoc&elsca2=email&elsca3=0168-1591_201304_145_1-2&elsca4=elsevier)

[Stephan Grundy]

Lets do one better to conclusive prove that snakes have emotions.... particularly the emotion of snakes "loving" their keepers.

Let's all take are snakes out into a suitable environment for them to thrive in and set them free...

afterall if you love something then set it free, if it comes back it loves you back... doesn't it?

We can all convene in a month to discuss our findings... we can not prove this without proper experimentation and proper statistical data to back us up?

Who's with me on this?

Actually given the huge percentage of snakes that are found after escaping...

Though probably this is more related to the fact that snakes do not travel far by choice in the wild, and so tend to stay in the house or close general area where they escaped!

[Stephan Grundy]

There's also the issue of brooding behaviour, e.g., the way a female python will "shiver" to raise heat for her eggs. This kind of behaviour fits with bird brooding behaviour, and birds certainly tend to show the close bonding we think of as "love".
While this is very rudimentary in terms of social bonds, it implies some instinct-guided capability to be aware of the well-being of creatures beyond oneself. I think snakes are pretty short on this capability, though other reptiles can demonstrate it to a surprising degree in parental behaviour.

As far as happiness in snakes - we probably do need to learn a lot more before we can even tell from a brain scan. As a keeper, I consider eating on schedule, being in good physical condition, and not engaging in obvious discontented behaviour to be pretty much a win! I don't know if we'll ever know when a snake is genuinely happy, if snakes even can feel what we consider to be happiness, but I don't doubt at all that I can usually tell when one of mine is *unhappy*.

[StudentoReptile]

Personally, I think the brooding aspect is a stretch. It's just a mechanism the female uses to help increase the chances of her eggs surviving = successful passing of genetic material. Its millions of years of instinctual behavior; the female snake does it because her body/hormones tell her its what she is supposed to do. She is not making any conscious decision or choice to be near the eggs. In some cases, the eggs may turn bad and her body will tell her this, and she will move on.

[Stephan Grundy]

Personally, I think the brooding aspect is a stretch. It's just a mechanism the female uses to help increase the chances of her eggs surviving = successful passing of genetic material. Its millions of years of instinctual behavior; the female snake does it because her body/hormones tell her its what she is supposed to do. She is not making any conscious decision or choice to be near the eggs. In some cases, the eggs may turn bad and her body will tell her this, and she will move on.

Well, yes, but you could make the exact same argument for mammalian mothering behavior - and note that mammal mothers of many species will instinctively eat their babies if there is a severe food shortage or ongoing threat-stress, and move on without, as far as we can tell, ever looking back.
Ultimately, one could argue that *all* parental-care behaviour is a mechanism used to increase the chances of genetic material surviving, with the capacity for what we most usually call "parental love" (in its ultimate form, the parent's willingness to sacrifice themself for a child - which is very much culturally determined; the closer to the edge a human population is, the more likely it is for cultural norms to include various forms of sacrificing the infant, non-contributive for years and with the lowest chance of survival, in order to preserve the healthy adult who can help keep the tribe alive and may produce more children in better times) increasing with increased time-binding ability and social character of the species.
I am by no means suggesting that mama python feels the same way about her eggs that mama human, or even mama rabbit, does about the child or litter in her womb - it is fairly certain that she doesn't, and I think extremely certain that, unlike just about any mammalian species, mama python is very highly unlikely ever to transfer any aspect of those rudimentary family instincts to anything other than her eggs. But the presence of instinctive parental behaviour is the first necessary step in developing the wider complex of hormonally-supported instinctive behaviour that we think of as "love" - the big difference with us being that humans can and constantly do transfer the initial instinctive emotion to all sorts of non-reproduction-related beings, objects, and even abstract ideals! Are snakes ever going to take another step in that direction? I doubt it, unless the world changes in ways rather more severe than gently shifting back towards another period of climactic optimum.

[Ryodraco]

I feel some recent obervations I've made of my snakes could be relevant here. It says nothing about emotion, but it does say something about complexity and their ability to judge a situation.

Namely my snakes will often be out and about in their tanks when I am around and usually be undisturbed, provided I don't make any sudden movements. If a few other people come in though (they are calm and quiet as well) they will rapidly hide. I don't know if it is because they recognize there are more people in the room than usual or if its because they recognize them as not being the person who is normally in the room. However it does show I think that they can recognize changes in the environment more complex than "a big, potentially dangerous creature is near me."

[Trollbie]

I want a King Cobra best friend!


I am actually interested in researching this stuff. Maybe I could use my degree towards it.