I'm interested in your opinion about my bull snake

[herplovr_bri89]

I've been told that Leaya, my 4 year old 6 foot Bull Snake's behavior, is odd for her species. What do you think?

I got her directly from a breeder when she was 3 months old and she was never snippy and LOVED being held.
She bit ONCE when she was young but that was due to the fact that my mom was hand feeding and held the mouse around the middle (thawed). She got mom's finger, but the way Leaya reacted was incredible. She REFUSED to eat that mouse, I had to toss it, and she.nudged mom's finger like she was apologizing. Ever since, even with the tongs, she runs her nose up and down the rat, then takes it VERY cautiously. And in 4 years I've only been bitten once.
She has NEVER musked, she only snorts if I take her outside and too many of the neighborhood kids rush up to see her, and all try to pet her at once. She doesn't even HISS (and I'm serious she's only really hissed, sounding like a waterspout 1 time!) Let alone triangle her head or tail rattle.
Leaya also seems to be protective. She was challenging one of our cats for hissing at me, when my illness put me on the ground she made her nose bleed trying to get out. And for the first time, she struck at my mom for yelling at me.
Plus she DANCES only to Klove Radio, and when I sing along with it, she won't do.it with any other station. And she's been doing that all her life.

So on a scale of 1-10 how weird is she for a bull snake?

[SpOoKy]

I think you are mistaking normal behavior for a snake with having emotions.
She REFUSED to eat that mouse, I had to toss it, and she.nudged mom's finger like she was apologizing.
snakes don't apologize for natural reactions. She smelled like mouse, snake strikes and realized it wasn't a mouse.

She was challenging one of our cats for hissing at me
Defensive behavior. Not for hissing at you, the snake felt threatened by the cat.

And for the first time, she struck at my mom for yelling at me.

Not for yelling at you.

Snakes don't think the same way we do.

I actually have 2 bull snakes myself and would love to see some pictures :)

[herplovr_bri89]

I'll get some up as soon as I can, my phone's not all that great but she's about to shed and she always looks the best after she does.

So it was normal with the cat? She was around my neck and I was standing up, the cat was on the bed. She was still pretty small, about a foot long, maybe as wide as a nickel, i would think her instinct would be to flee? Not shot down my arm at the cat.

[EmbraceCalamity]

Anthropomorphism is an easy thing to fall into, but snakes aren't people. You can't apply our feelings, thoughts, intentions, or reactions to a snake. It's misguided at best and dangerous at worst.

~Maggot

[Lankyrob]

If you are seriousin what you are saying then you need to do a LOT of reading about snakes and their abilities to "feel".

Personally i smell a whiff of troll.... Anyone else?

[herplovr_bri89]

Actually i did over a YEARs worth of research before i got her, I'm a member of the Arizona Herpetological Association! The President of the AHA himself said he's never seen a snake like her! I have also rescued, nursed back, tamed, and rehomed 3 others all different types. Everyone who meet's Leaya says she doesn't behave anything like most snakes.

[EmbraceCalamity]

Actually i did over a YEARs worth of research before i got her, I'm a member of the Arizona Herpetological Association! The President of the AHA himself said he's never seen a snake like her! I have also rescued, nursed back, tamed, and rehomed 3 others all different types. Everyone who meet's Leaya says she doesn't behave anything like most snakes.So? Not all animals are the same. It's to be expected that some will be quirky. But unless you're saying that your particular snake has an extreme mutation in its brain that puts its cognitive abilities unrealistically beyond the rest of its species, then it's just a snake that behaves a little oddly. By saying it's different from all other snakes, therefore it feels emotions while all other snakes are physically and cognitively incapable is, frankly, ridiculous.

~Maggot

[jarich]

Yikes, lighten up everyone.

Sounds like you have a very chill bull snake, herplovr. I have a feeling your snake was probably just hissing at the cat in protection of itself, but hey, what difference does it make either way. Glad you have been able to help some other reptiles in need and that you have a snake you really love.

Welcome to the forum!

[Gungirl]

Keep the snake away from the cat.. that is not a smart move.


Snakes have no feelings.. everything you saw you put your emotions onto. Not a magical new snake with emotions.

[herplovr_bri89]

Thanks jarich:)

And everyone lets just agree to disagree on the feelings matter because everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Perhaps someone could help me out with this part

She has NEVER musked, she only snorts if I take her outside and too many of the neighborhood kids rush up to see her, and all try to pet her at once. She doesn't even HISS (and I'm serious she's only really hissed, sounding like a waterspout 1 time!) Let alone triangle her head or tail rattle.

From all the discussions I've had with other Bull owners, and all the books and websites I've read, they are usually a bit more aggressive. And really she doesn't hiss at the cats, she's in a 6 foot long wooden vivarium that sits on the floor. 4 feet high, and 2 feet wide, with a plexiglass sliding front door, custom built with a pit in the middle so she can dig all she wants. Too heavy and tall to put it on anything though. When she comes out the cats gather in front and she gets up on the plexiglass and sways back and forth. I'll have to get a picture up so u can see. Also, even though she's in blue phase right now, the viv has vents on the sides, i caught her last night with her head just resting up there, nose to nose with one of the cats! If i can get my phone to cooperate i'll post a pic

[herplovr_bri89]

And i would never leave her unsupervised anywhere, even if she was the ONLY animal in the home

[SpOoKy]

Yep, she sounds just like one of mine. The other one has more of the "regular" bull characteristics. She is just a calmer snake, doesn't make her different from other calm snakes. Character traits are not specific to every one. I still disagree with her apolgizing to your mom or the other "human" things she does.

[Lankyrob]

Thanks jarich:)

And everyone lets just agree to disagree on the feelings matter because everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Perhaps someone could help me out with this part

She has NEVER musked, she only snorts if I take her outside and too many of the neighborhood kids rush up to see her, and all try to pet her at once. She doesn't even HISS (and I'm serious she's only really hissed, sounding like a waterspout 1 time!) Let alone triangle her head or tail rattle.

From all the discussions I've had with other Bull owners, and all the books and websites I've read, they are usually a bit more aggressive. And really she doesn't hiss at the cats, she's in a 6 foot long wooden vivarium that sits on the floor. 4 feet high, and 2 feet wide, with a plexiglass sliding front door, custom built with a pit in the middle so she can dig all she wants. Too heavy and tall to put it on anything though. When she comes out the cats gather in front and she gets up on the plexiglass and sways back and forth. I'll have to get a picture up so u can see. Also, even though she's in blue phase right now, the viv has vents on the sides, i caught her last night with her head just resting up there, nose to nose with one of the cats! If i can get my phone to cooperate i'll post a pic

IT is not an opinion it is fact that they dont have the brain requirements to "feel" - they run on natural instinct only :)

[Terranaut]

I personaly think your snake is escaped from NIMH and is leader of a snake clan tryin to take over the world!!!
But seriously your animal is not capable of the feelings or reactions you describe.
Its all coinsidence.
I did think this story has troll possibility. A "BULL" snake. Lol

[Aaron_S]

...And everyone lets just agree to disagree on the feelings matter because everyone is entitled to their opinion....


So you come here looking for opinions and thoughts and when they don't side with your own, you just discredit everything that everyone is saying? Might as well leave the forum now as you certainly won't gain anything from us with that closed mind.


In regards to your snake, it's simply acting like a regular, docile snake. Nothing special.

[Wama]

She isn't odd........ your very lucky

[KORBIN5895]

Maybe this snake is the next evolutionary step in reptiles? The op should start teaching it Latin..

[herplovr_bri89]

So you come here looking for opinions and thoughts and when they don't side with your own, you just discredit everything that everyone is saying? Might as well leave the forum now as you certainly won't gain anything from us with that closed mind.


In regards to your snake, it's simply acting like a regular, docile snake. Nothing special.

Wama thank you, you seem to be one of the few decent ones jarich you too, so please disregard this message:)

You people DRIVE new snake owners away!! I've seen it on plenty of other threads, they come looking for help and you blast them if they don't agree with you, you criticize EVERYTHING without saying anything positive, you call them names (if anyone is a troll that honor goes to you phonies a REAL Herp lover and DECENT OWNER would be eager to help) plus you judge without knowing a d**m thing. If you have NEVER MET HER then how can you possibly judge an animal I've raised from an infant. I was simply trying to introduce myself and Leaya who is more than a snake to me, I see her as my own child seeing as i might not ever have any actual children.

Maybe she is so different because i don't use her simply for breeding purposes, or because i wanted something bad a**. She chose ME. I went to that breeder to purchase a Kingsnake but when she came right out of her clutch and wrapped around my arm i knew SHE was the one i should buy.

Leaya has quite literally SAVED MY LIFE, I have 2 aneurysm sitting in my brain and when i went down LEAYA was they only one who brought me back! So excuse me for getting protective and I'm sorry YOU'VE never thought of your herps as anything more than a cold beast that would bite you as soon as look at you. MAYBE if you showed them as much love and protected them as fiercely as I do Leaya they might have shown you a little in return. YOUR LOSS! And if you jerks treat your animals anything like you treat new forum members who don't share YOUR SIMPLE CLOSED MINDED VIEWS then i feel REALLY sorry for them.

It seems you mainly use this forum to bash other owners for not sharing your views, you say snakes don't have emotions. Then why does the female King Cobra in the wild, create an incubated nest, lay eggs, then wrap her body around the nest to both keep the eggs warm and aggressively protects them from any threat. Then when the eggs hatch she leaves to feed so she won't eat her young, then comes back to protect them.
Got three words for you: We don't know. Snakes are one of the creatures that man understands very little about, so unless you actually have a snakes brain in your head none of you know for certain anything that goes on in it.

[Gungirl]

This actually made me lol...

[Aaron_S]

Wama thank you, you seem to be one of the few decent ones jarich you too, so please disregard this message:)

You people DRIVE new snake owners away!! I've seen it on plenty of other threads, they come looking for help and you blast them if they don't agree with you, you criticize EVERYTHING without saying anything positive, you call them names (if anyone is a troll that honor goes to you phonies a REAL Herp lover and DECENT OWNER would be eager to help) plus you judge without knowing a d**m thing. If you have NEVER MET HER then how can you possibly judge an animal I've raised from an infant. I was simply trying to introduce myself and Leaya who is more than a snake to me, I see her as my own child seeing as i might not ever have any actual children.

Maybe she is so different because i don't use her simply for breeding purposes, or because i wanted something bad a**. She chose ME. I went to that breeder to purchase a Kingsnake but when she came right out of her clutch and wrapped around my arm i knew SHE was the one i should buy.

Leaya has quite literally SAVED MY LIFE, I have 2 aneurysm sitting in my brain and when i went down LEAYA was they only one who brought me back! So excuse me for getting protective and I'm sorry YOU'VE never thought of your herps as anything more than a cold beast that would bite you as soon as look at you. MAYBE if you showed them as much love and protected them as fiercely as I do Leaya they might have shown you a little in return. YOUR LOSS! And if you jerks treat your animals anything like you treat new forum members who don't share YOUR SIMPLE CLOSED MINDED VIEWS then i feel REALLY sorry for them.

It seems you mainly use this forum to bash other owners for not sharing your views, you say snakes don't have emotions. Then why does the female King Cobra in the wild, create an incubated nest, lay eggs, then wrap her body around the nest to both keep the eggs warm and aggressively protects them from any threat. Then when the eggs hatch she leaves to feed so she won't eat her young, then comes back to protect them.
Got three words for you: We don't know. Snakes are one of the creatures that man understands very little about, so unless you actually have a snakes brain in your head none of you know for certain anything that goes on in it.

You entertain me.

First of all, my snakes are snakes and I don't try to think more of them. I have owned far more than you've seen in person and I've had my hands on enough to form my opinions. So they aren't just picked out of the sky. So yes I DO know a DAMN thing.

Mine are NOT aggressive in the least as you claim them to be. How about YOU take your own advice and don't say anything because YOU DON'T KNOW. I'll post pics tomorrow of some of my snakes that "attack me when I look at them".

The funny part is, we actually DO know. There's been studies done on these animals brains and this is what they've come up with. Your random theory is based on primal instinct of ensuring the species survives.

Truth of the matter is, once baby snakes hatch. They take off. They don't sit around the nest and wait for mother to protect them. Where do you get this information?

[herplovr_bri89]

I think its funny how quickly a tirade came when the judgement was pointed at you, don't like it too much do you.

My research came from books, local owners of just about everything imaginable, and a handy thing called Google. And if people didn't have "random theories" in the first place they couldn't prove anything. And since you have never cared for YOUR snake in the manor that I care for MINE its obvious why my snake has a much different and unique behaviour towards me. And i meant NONE OF YOU KNOW A DAMN THING ABOUT LEAYA, yet you judge as if you do!!! You might know about bull snakes but you don't know S**T about HER. i asked if her actions were out of the ordinary and all u people did was criticize me for saying it "seemed like" she was doing it for what ever particular reason.

And maybe you should actually read things, if you had you would see i said "you've never THOUGHT of your herps as anything more than a cold beast that would bite you as soon as look at you" not that they actually did, but post to your heart's content

[KORBIN5895]

I think its funny how quickly a tirade came when the judgement was pointed at you, don't like it too much do you.

My research came from books, local owners of just about everything imaginable, and a handy thing called Google. And if people didn't have "random theories" in the first place they couldn't prove anything. And since you have never cared for YOUR snake in the manor that I care for MINE its obvious why my snake has a much different and unique behaviour towards me. And i meant NONE OF YOU KNOW A DAMN THING ABOUT LEAYA, yet you judge as if you do!!! You might know about bull snakes but you don't know S**T about HER. i asked if her actions were out of the ordinary and all u people did was criticize me for saying it "seemed like" she was doing it for what ever particular reason.

And maybe you should actually read things, if you had you would see i said "you've never THOUGHT of your herps as anything more than a cold beast that would bite you as soon as look at you" not that they actually did, but post to your heart's content

Please remember to take your meds before posting again.

[SpOoKy]

I am with Kat, I actually laughed out loud reading these posts...he guys guess what. The other day my snake gave me a big hug and wouldn't let go. Not because it wanted my warmth, but because he looooves me!

Come on buddy, read some actual scientific studies, not just google or yahoo questions where anybody can give any answer they like without having any proof to back it up. Snakes are incapable of feeling emotion. Scientific FACT! Your snake tolerates you but it does not love you.

If you read my first post, I told corrected you on what you though, then proceeded to ask for pictures. If I wanted to "DRIVE" you away I would have called you a fool and asked how you get through life on a day to day basis. Don't ask questions that you don't want factual answers too.

[Wyldrose]

My Opinion:
You had your snake from a hatchling (young snakes are not infants). You handled her a lot. She got very tame. Your lucky you have a snake who is well taken care of.
Snakes do not have emotions like humans, snakes don't cry when they are sad, or even get sad. They are hard wired to survive, hunt, eat, bask, hide, shed etc.

[Terranaut]

I am sorry you feel like your being stepped on here. The facts are there are many threads on here were we have discussed the fact that snakes do not have feelings or compassion or any of the cool traits we wish they did. They do not love or hate anything. It sounds like you have a super tame snake and thats great but everything else is just by chance. We had a little joke fun with you based on the fact that we know this is about as possible as you constricting a cow for your next steak. It simply isn't possible. Glad you love your snake unfortunately it can't love you back :( sorry.

[Lankyrob]

I can understand from your story why you anthropomorphise your snake, and i can also understand why you react emotionally when this theory is challenged but unfortunately all the facts show that what you describe cant be true.

If i make my house cold and get one of my snakes out of their enclosure the they wont want to leave me because i am WARM, not because they love me. If my cat gets too close they wont strike at it to defend me, they may strike to defend themselves from a predator or in the case of my larger snakes because they would try to eat the cat.

They breath, they eat, they ****, they shag, they piss, they eventually die - pretty much it and all instinctual things, not emotional ones.

[herplovr_bri89]

Honestly this Forum isn't worth my time, I don't think messing with someone's belief, values, or whatever happens to make them feel better, especially when that someone doesn't have all that much time left, is all that fun. Or funny at all. So I don't fit in, but go ahead and laugh all you want at the dying girl. I hope you get a real kick out of it. So continue making fun of me if that's what you need to feel.better about yourselves, you've worked me up to a point that I DO need to take.the 15 meds that are keeping me alive or I'll stroke.
I'll post a pic of that if you want proof!!!!

[mykee]

We're not laughing and making fun of the dying girl, we're laughing and making fun of the stubborn and annoying one.
I also call BS but who really cares.
I smell Troll.
Easily fixed:

http://www.reptilescanada.com/gallery/data/500/trollspray.jpg

[Jay]

These guys are just jealous that their snaks don't love them.

My snake is great, he doesn't move much so I take him out for a drag once a day, only after he gets his daily rat dipped in mayonnaise. Does that sound ridicules?

Now go do some research, lots of great threads on here regarding emotions in snakes. What I'm thinking you did was googled "does my snake love me." I can almost garunte that you found plenty of answers that made you feel warm, fact is, if your snake COULD feel emotions it would hate you.

[Jay]

Honestly this Forum isn't worth my time, I don't think messing with someone's belief, values, or whatever happens to make them feel better, especially when that someone doesn't have all that much time left, is all that fun. Or funny at all. So I don't fit in, but go ahead and laugh all you want at the dying girl. I hope you get a real kick out of it. So continue making fun of me if that's what you need to feel.better about yourselves, you've worked me up to a point that I DO need to take.the 15 meds that are keeping me alive or I'll stroke.
I'll post a pic of that if you want proof!!!!

Yes! "Pics or it didn't happen."

[herplovr_bri89]

I meant pic of the medications you idiot I'm trying to prevent the stroke!! The only reason I'm on here now is cause i need something to focus on to stay conscious! I never googled if a snake has emotions and if you read my original post you'll find the term "seemed like" i was only trying to describe what it LOOKED LIKE to people who weren't there!!

[Jay]

I meant pic of the medications you idiot I'm trying to prevent the stroke!! The only reason I'm on here now is cause i need something to focus on to stay conscious! I never googled if a snake has emotions and if you read my original post you'll find the term "seemed like" i was only trying to describe what it LOOKED LIKE to people who weren't there!!

So, no pictures?

[herplovr_bri89]

Do you know how to get the damn things to load from the fone. Does this forum have a special account or can i somehow load from an old photobucket account?

[Terranaut]

Photobucket works. Its what I use.

[Jay]

What's a "fone?"

[herplovr_bri89]

So, no pictures?

Ok i trying to figure this out. I don't know if u actually wanted to see the meds but i said i'd show them as proof

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae344/secretgoddess_89/IMG_20121120_175139.jpg

[jarich]

Well this seems to have become such an important thread, like all the impressive threads lately full of so much helpful and important information. What is it we are talking about? Oh yes, such an important topic that practically requires someone to correct it instead of just not worrying about it. (Where is that sarcasm button?) Why dont we all gather round and make fun of a young or new person, pick them apart and act like a bunch of bullies. That seems very mature, and Im sure its going to help so many other reptile keepers along the way. Ya, let's use that excuse to make us feel important. Its all for the animals. Do you guys walk through playgrounds so you can push children off the swings too? I know, lets go to the zoo and yell at the penguins for not being able to fly.

How about we do something else fun. Why dont one of you super smart folks fighting the good fight type out your bibliography of the scientific references you have for saying reptiles dont have the capacity for emotion. Just one of you. Something tells me this should be a very short list. And no, I dont mean madly scramble on Google scholar to find some article to put up here. Have any of you actually done any real research at all, or are all you just regurgitating something someone else told you? Ya, I thought so. Because anyone with any kind of intelligence would have seen this thread for what it was immediately; a young girl who loves her snake and was hoping to find a community of other reptile lovers. Unfortunately she found a group who would rather pick apart every new thread. Quick lets all go search for the tiniest little thing in every thread we can say is wrong! Itll make us all feel so smart and impressive!

[Jay]

Well this seems to have become such an important thread, like all the impressive threads lately full of so much helpful and important information. What is it we are talking about? Oh yes, such an important topic that practically requires someone to correct it instead of just not worrying about it. (Where is that sarcasm button?) Why dont we all gather round and make fun of a young or new person, pick them apart and act like a bunch of bullies. That seems very mature, and Im sure its going to help so many other reptile keepers along the way. Ya, let's use that excuse to make us feel important. Its all for the animals. Do you guys walk through playgrounds so you can push children off the swings too? I know, lets go to the zoo and yell at the penguins for not being able to fly.

How about we do something else fun. Why dont one of you super smart folks fighting the good fight type out your bibliography of the scientific references you have for saying reptiles dont have the capacity for emotion. Just one of you. Something tells me this should be a very short list. And no, I dont mean madly scramble on Google scholar to find some article to put up here. Have any of you actually done any real research at all, or are all you just regurgitating something someone else told you? Ya, I thought so. Because anyone with any kind of intelligence would have seen this thread for what it was immediately; a young girl who loves her snake and was hoping to find a community of other reptile lovers. Unfortunately she found a group who would rather pick apart every new thread. Quick lets all go search for the tiniest little thing in every thread we can say is wrong! Itll make us all feel so smart and impressive!

Can't have fun with people who are of no use to this great community? She or He is clearly not willing to learn so why teach? If these are the kind of experiences she wants to share , then maybe this form isn't for her.

Why are you so quick to say she's young?

[Jay]

Ok i trying to figure this out. I don't know if u actually wanted to see the meds but i said i'd show them as proof

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae344/secretgoddess_89/IMG_20121120_175139.jpg

No I did not actually want to see your meds, I can open my own liquor....I mean medicine cabinet to see my medication.

[herplovr_bri89]

Maybe because he saw the 89 and deciphered that I'm 23

[Jay]

So you come here looking for opinions and thoughts and when they don't side with your own, you just discredit everything that everyone is saying? Might as well leave the forum now as you certainly won't gain anything from us with that closed mind.


In regards to your snake, it's simply acting like a regular, docile snake. Nothing special.

Maybe because he saw the 89 and deciphered that I'm 23

Yes that was my first guess a swell , although I was hoping you were way younger so at least you had an excuse for you ignorance.

[herplovr_bri89]

What's the excuse for your arrogance?

[Jay]

I'm just that important. On a serious note, new topic.

[herplovr_bri89]

And people way way older than me can be ALOT MORE IGNORANT

[herplovr_bri89]

In your dreams maybe

[herplovr_bri89]

I highly doubt your all that important

[Jay]

I highly doubt your all that important

My snakes think I'm important. Anyways, moving along now.

[iBaman]

first mistake: letting someone else's opinion bug you (opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink)
Second: Letting them know their comments bothered you. Don't worry about it. If you think your snake loves you, that's your prerogative. it's not hurting you or the snake. Not to say I think snakes can love or any of that jazz...but seriously, what does it hurt?

[Terranaut]

I have been doing my best to be serious and to consider the op ,their story ect. But I have been clearly ignored. So now what?? Do I keep trying as I have and bang my head against the wall listening to the bad attitude of the op ? Or will the op realize we are just telling the truth and the fact they are ill or the fact that they are wrong doesn't make this site to blame. Failure to listen is to blame.

[Lankyrob]

Noone is having a go at a sick little girl - that is just pathetic and if you use your illness as an excuse to act like an *** then you will never get any respect from anyone. :no:

[Terranaut]

first mistake: letting someone else's opinion bug you (opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink)
Second: Letting them know their comments bothered you. Don't worry about it. If you think your snake loves you, that's your prerogative. it's not hurting you or the snake. Not to say I think snakes can love or any of that jazz...but seriously, what does it hurt?

In this case very little chance of harm but assuming emotions of any kind with a larger snake can be dangerous. Not knowing the true thought process of your pet can end with a bite or worse. Maybe not from a bull but imagine you felt this way about your snake and still did lets say 3 yrs from now. See?
Also the snake is not smart enough to learn a bit of your responces like a dog or cat do. Eg. A dog bares its teeth to another as a warning to stay away yet they come tail wagging and never respond to you baring a big smile. The dog has learned to understand a human response and will understand it. They still bare teeth at other dogs to so they are kinda bilingual. A snake can not ever do this. You must learn when your snake is bearing teeth so to speak. Thats not going to happen if you think it has feelings. This is why we hope the op learns from us and accepts the truth of the matter. This thread started out with teaching not bashing. The op does not understand the nature of both their snake and us. :(

[Aaron_S]

I think its funny how quickly a tirade came when the judgement was pointed at you, don't like it too much do you.

My research came from books, local owners of just about everything imaginable, and a handy thing called Google. And if people didn't have "random theories" in the first place they couldn't prove anything. And since you have never cared for YOUR snake in the manor that I care for MINE its obvious why my snake has a much different and unique behaviour towards me. And i meant NONE OF YOU KNOW A DAMN THING ABOUT LEAYA, yet you judge as if you do!!! You might know about bull snakes but you don't know S**T about HER. i asked if her actions were out of the ordinary and all u people did was criticize me for saying it "seemed like" she was doing it for what ever particular reason.

And maybe you should actually read things, if you had you would see i said "you've never THOUGHT of your herps as anything more than a cold beast that would bite you as soon as look at you" not that they actually did, but post to your heart's content

You'll quickly learn, if you stay around, that the "judgement" was pointed at me doesn't bother me. There's nothing to judge. I know what I'm talking about.

You asked your question if your snake was out of the ordinary. Everyone, including myself gave you the simple answer of "no". You disliked this because it wasn't what you wanted to hear. We also backed it up with our own "theories" as you did yourself. You simply can't fathom that you're wrong.

If your snake is SOO different then write a paper and win your nobel prize. I've got two already ;)


Hmm, also, in the quote above you said you used google to make up your theory and then in this post, http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/790281-post31.html you mention you didn't use google. So where did you get the king cobra information again?

[Aaron_S]

Well this seems to have become such an important thread, like all the impressive threads lately full of so much helpful and important information. What is it we are talking about? Oh yes, such an important topic that practically requires someone to correct it instead of just not worrying about it. (Where is that sarcasm button?) Why dont we all gather round and make fun of a young or new person, pick them apart and act like a bunch of bullies. That seems very mature, and Im sure its going to help so many other reptile keepers along the way. Ya, let's use that excuse to make us feel important. Its all for the animals. Do you guys walk through playgrounds so you can push children off the swings too? I know, lets go to the zoo and yell at the penguins for not being able to fly.

How about we do something else fun. Why dont one of you super smart folks fighting the good fight type out your bibliography of the scientific references you have for saying reptiles dont have the capacity for emotion. Just one of you. Something tells me this should be a very short list. And no, I dont mean madly scramble on Google scholar to find some article to put up here. Have any of you actually done any real research at all, or are all you just regurgitating something someone else told you? Ya, I thought so. Because anyone with any kind of intelligence would have seen this thread for what it was immediately; a young girl who loves her snake and was hoping to find a community of other reptile lovers. Unfortunately she found a group who would rather pick apart every new thread. Quick lets all go search for the tiniest little thing in every thread we can say is wrong! Itll make us all feel so smart and impressive!

So because you asked I went looking for papers. Honestly, I haven't done this research in some years so yes I did use google scholar, which kind of sucks cause the papers I want, I have to purchase.

Anyway, here is what I found out and how I understood things. The autonomic nervous system is what essentially controls emotion. As mammals, we have a more developed system that controls our higher emotions that help us navigate complex social behaviour, gives us facial expression etc. Reptiles, snakes in particular, don't have complex social behaviour or facial expressions.

I'll continue looking to find more sources BUT since you've asked and I've complied how about you look to prove my theory of basic instinct in reptiles wrong. It's only fair.

[jarich]

As I see no point in this thread continuing, and as no one (including you) seems to have gotten the point I was getting at in my post in any way, shape or form, Im not sure about your theory of 'give and take' fairness, Aaron.

However, you know how much I like a good debate, so instead lets start a new thread. PLEASE feel free to let this thread die.

[mykee]

I agree. This thread needs to die, and the OP needs to fade into oblivion, never to be heard from again. Too much of this **** lately.

[herplovr_bri89]

I agree with jarich completely, this thread needs to end, but as for me fading into oblivion don't count on it. I'm not giving you that satisfaction. There aren't enough kind, understanding people on this forum, bye for now all. :rolleyes:

[Terranaut]

This thread died before the end of page one :(

[Ryodraco]

I hope I don't upset anyone by replying to this. Basically I wanted to comment on one other comment.

IT is not an opinion it is fact that they dont have the brain requirements to "feel" - they run on natural instinct only :)
While I think giving snakes human emotions is wrong, I think it's also a bit much to claim they run only on instincts. That was once thought to be true for all animals, and now we know it isn't.

Snakes can certainly learn and remember to a limited degree (different individuals favoring different prey, getting used to handling, returning to den sites year after year), so natural instinct is not their only resource. In the sense that aggressiveness and behavior varies from one individual to the next we could even say they have personalities.

As for social behavior, with all the complex social behaviors that have been discovered in lizards in recent years I wouldn't be surprised if some snakes end up being more complex socially than we currently understand them to be.

But does a snake feel like a human? Of course not. I recall one program addressing this where someone stated that they perhaps appreciate being fed, and may tolerate people they are used to more than strangers, but this does not equate to the kind of bond that some seem to seek with snakes. I say we have to appreciate them on their terms, imagining we are important to them as anything more than a provider of food (and perhaps warmth at times) is ultimately only for our own gratification.